Non-motoring > That Election Over the Pond Miscellaneous
Thread Author: zippy Replies: 45
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New Wed 6 Nov 24 01:55 
 That Election Over the Pond - zippy
At the moment, Trump looks like he's ahead. Currently 105 electoral seats to 30 for Harris. Of course this is because most of the traditional GOP states have got their counts in early. But there are some strong county results for Trump so far in states that he shouldn't get a look in - e.g. Virginia.
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New Wed 6 Nov 24 11:42 
 That Election Over the Pond - Manatee
What a massive self-inflicted catastrophe. Will he now get on with Project 2025? Abandon Ukraine? What price Taiwan's autonomy? NATO? He intends to replace the whole machinery of state, the civil service, with his followers.

Of course it's not that simple. Who will control him? 'Vice President' Musk? How long will he last before his health, physical or mental, fails and Vance takes over?

I was contemplating a big holiday there in 2026, Route 66 job. The way I feel about the country at the moment, I won't be doing that. A futile expression of wanting them to stew in their own juice I suppose.

Unfortunately I don't think the USA can go down the plughole without affecting the rest of us.

Leading world figures who wouldn't have given him the time of day had he lost are engaging in furious diplomacy, sensibly of course.

In 2016-2019 not much changed, 2020 was Covid year. But he had a cabinet that restrained him. Almost to a man and woman, they have subsequently denied him. This time he will pick from craven loyalists and it looks as if Congress and the Senate will be majority Republican. He could be practically unconstrained.
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New Wed 6 Nov 24 14:40 
 That Election Over the Pond - Manatee
Tesla stock has gone up 13% on the news and plan for tariffs on Chinese imports. Now we know why Musk was helping.
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New Wed 6 Nov 24 16:35 
 That Election Over the Pond - sooty123
x.com/eveforamerica/status/1854100880343159115

Why Trump won, from a CNN commentator. Two minute clip.
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New Wed 6 Nov 24 16:47 
 That Election Over the Pond - zippy
Good clip.

I think many are fed up of being poorer. I have noticed my salary stretches nowhere near as far it did just 5 years ago and I guess if a couple of hundred million are feeling the same way, they will say so in the polls.

I do hope that some of his more egregious policies re the economy will not come to fruition - major hikes in tariffs will hurt the people who voted for him by increasing costs of many of the goods that they buy and potentially lead to a slowing down of trade worldwide if there are retaliatory tariffs and a likely recession or worse still, depression - unless of course that's what he wants so his billionaire friends can buy up loads of assets cheaply and of course get cheap labour that goes with a recession.
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New Wed 6 Nov 24 17:42 
 That Election Over the Pond - Zero
Socially, The USA is broken, it broke it 5 years or so ago. The Americans as a society are going down the pan rapidly, and they seem hell bent on driving it there. The decline of the USA has started, a new world order, far east based will take over.

Great time for the UK to have left the worlds third largest trading/influence block.
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New Wed 6 Nov 24 21:16 
 That Election Over the Pond - Rudedog
Very dark day - I feel we could be looking at four years of death and destruction both human and financially, I just believe that the US think he is their saviour.
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New Wed 6 Nov 24 21:55 
 That Election Over the Pond - CGNorwich
Look on the bright side. A man of his age and in his condition isn’t going to b around long.
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New Wed 6 Nov 24 22:36 
 That Election Over the Pond - zippy
>> Very dark day - I feel we could be looking at four years of death
>> and destruction both human and financially, I just believe that the US think he is
>> their saviour.
>>
>>

Seems to me a case of the turkeys voting for Thanksgiving.

But this, and the riots we saw here in the summer are a lesson to the politicians; ignore your voter base at your peril.
Last edited by: zippy on Wed 6 Nov 24 at 22:38
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 07:33 
 That Election Over the Pond - Rudedog
Won't be long before judges are replaced in the Supreme Court and then the rules will be gradually changed but will lose when challenged.

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New Thu 7 Nov 24 08:51 
 That Election Over the Pond - Zero
>> Won't be long before judges are replaced in the Supreme Court and then the rules
>> will be gradually changed but will lose when challenged.

They have to die to be replaced. Trump was lucky that two carked it during his tenure
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 10:46 
 That Election Over the Pond - zippy
>> They have to die to be replaced.

If they don't give the correct rulings, I am sure that can be arranged.

Some commentators are suggesting a lot of young males voted for Trump. Apparently "Incels" who despise females.

Despite my comments upthread, I can't imagine any right minded individual voting for a convicted criminal, insurrectionalist, misogynist etc. etc. etc.

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New Thu 7 Nov 24 11:20 
 That Election Over the Pond - maltrap
The first thing Trump will do is exonerate himself and all of his cronies from all of the misdeeds they were convicted of under the previous administration.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 11:50 
 That Election Over the Pond - CGNorwich
Himself certainly. Not sure he cares too much about the fate of his cronies. Loyalty is pretty much a one way thing for Trump.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 11:47 
 That Election Over the Pond - CGNorwich
“Despite my comments upthread, I can't imagine any right minded individual voting for a convicted criminal, insurrectionalist, misogynist etc. etc. etc.”

And yet over half of voters did. Were they all of unsound mind?

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New Thu 7 Nov 24 12:12 
 That Election Over the Pond - Bromptonaut
>> “Despite my comments upthread, I can't imagine any right minded individual voting for a convicted
>> criminal, insurrectionalist, misogynist etc. etc. etc.”
>>
>> And yet over half of voters did. Were they all of unsound mind?

America is a foreign country. Far more foreign than we realise on account of the common language.

Trump and Trumpism has captured the GoP. People vote for the GOP becuase it stands for them.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 13:01 
 That Election Over the Pond - Kevin
The Trump win can be explained in one word and was entirely predictable and avoidable - Exasperation.

Joe public was tired of being ignored, preached at and villified if they did not subscribe to the liberal agenda being foisted on them by govt. and their well-heeled celebrity chums. Instead of sitting up and taking notice the politicians brushed their concerns under the carpet while nine to fivers saw a decline in living standards, mass immigration into the southern states, increased crime levels and billions of their tax dollars going overseas. Something was going to break and Trump's win is the result.

The crazy thing is that the Democrats are still in denial. The recriminations have started and it will be everyone but themselves to blame. Even our own media have joined the funeral procession.

Politicians on this side of the pond would do well to take note.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 15:39 
 That Election Over the Pond - Robin O'Reliant
>> Politicians on this side of the pond would do well to take note.


Summed up nicely.

The overwhelming majority don't give a stuff about some grown man in a dress who demands the right to P in the same toilet as their daughters and they are fed up to the back teeth of the character of their town being completely changed by immigration, both legal and illegal. They want a home that's affordable to live in and a decent wage to help pay the rent.

It was worth seeing Trump win just to read the Guardian this morning. They just don't seem able to get it.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 8 Nov 24 at 12:05
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 17:19 
 That Election Over the Pond - Fullchat
"The overwhelming majority don't give a stuff about some grown man in a dress who demands the right to P in the same toilet as their daughters......."

Well I actually I do. I don't care how people wish to live their lives, I consider myself quite tolerant, but its a two way street. I don't wish to attract faux hatred, to be preached at and pilloried. If I'm uncomfortable with something I should be able to say so. I shouldnt have to kowtow to their whims. Freedoms work both ways. I don't want to live their lives nor impact on me.

Wokeism is become a dangerous one sided cult.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Thu 7 Nov 24 at 17:22
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 19:18 
 That Election Over the Pond - Manatee
>>The Trump win can be explained in one word and was entirely predictable and avoidable - Exasperation.

There's a lot in that, in that it is how they feel. Also that the Dems failed to get their case across.

The Dems put far too much reliance on the abortion/choice issue, which was mistaken in that it has been devolved now to the states; there were separate questions in some states on the ballot about this and some Red states have in fact voted for at least some legal abortion.

The economy is always in there somewhere, especially after significant food and fuel inflation. Never mind that practically the whole world experienced this, or that Biden has signed off a trillion or so for the inflation reduction strategy and that inflation is now well down. Trump has constantly boasted that he was responsible for the best ever US economy, and that the economy is now ruined. Neither of those things is true but the Trumpers believe it.

Then there is the whole 'deep state' thing - the belief that the Dems are in league with a secret network of wealthy and powerful people who operate for their own benefit and to keep the workers poor. The Clintons are presumed to be somewhere near the centre of this conspiracy. In fact the oligarchs have in general supported or declined to oppose Trump, starting of course with Musk.

Years ago around the middle of George W's presidency I sat next to an American lady on a plane, who as far as I could gather was on her way back to the US from some mini-Davos type meeting held in the Czech republic. She described something like this, but the villains she nominated were the oil billionaires including the Bushes! I think there's little doubt now that big oil favours Trump to the point of Anthropogenic Climate Change Denial.

Some Trumpers no doubt just have thinking difficulties, some will just be ignorant (both also go for Dem voters) but I struggle to explain Trump's numerical vote majority without thinking that for a significant number they are for practical purposes members of a cult. Cultists are not infrequently highly intelligent. They will not under any circumstances engage with the the facts or the argument when their invariably charismatic leader is impugned. I watched an interview yesterday in which it was put to one Trumper that Trump is a criminal, guilty of various felonies we all know about, and he simply cited those facts as proof that Trump has been persecuted and that the "judge was appointed by Biden".

Given the law of large numbers it is not in doubt that some Harris supporters are also 'cultists' but it seems likely that this unquestioning faith and adoration is a major factor in Trump's success. Harris can't hold a candle to Trump in the rabble rousing line.

The Demographic data extracted from exit polls suggest most groups were split something reasonably adjacent to 50/50. The main exception to this rule is that Black people voted Harris by 86:12.

Some data are presented here. Among other things it can be inferred that white males were strongly pro Trump.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0lp48ldgyeo

I still find it pretty boggling that nearly 73 million can vote for him. January 6th alone should have finished him.

He's a crook for sure. I doubt he literally means half of what he says, but the other half is still scary.

Maybe it's just a waypoint on the journey to our extinction. There's a world-wide epidemic of brain rot. Or maybe it's because we have to have a really big war every 3 or so generations so we can recognise oppressors when we see them.

I don't think we'll understand this until there is historical perspective.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 21:03 
 That Election Over the Pond - sooty123
The economy is always in there somewhere, especially after significant food and fuel inflation. Never
>> mind that practically the whole world experienced this, or that Biden has signed off a
>> trillion or so for the inflation reduction strategy and that inflation is now well down.
>> Trump has constantly boasted that he was responsible for the best ever US economy, and
>> that the economy is now ruined. Neither of those things is true but the Trumpers
>> believe it.
>>

I don't think he had to convince many, there appears to be a big disconnect between the official figures and what everyday people felt.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 21:50 
 That Election Over the Pond - Manatee

>> I don't think he had to convince many, there appears to be a big disconnect
>> between the official figures and what everyday people felt.

Yes. Prices are what people notice. You don't notice the unemployment figures for example if you aren't affected and don't listen to the news. But everybody knows when the food shopping goes from £100 to £120.
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 11:45 
 That Election Over the Pond - Kevin
Ignorant cult members with thinking difficulties?

I think you're losing the plot Manatee, and provided a good example of why they voted for Trump.
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 12:04 
 That Election Over the Pond - Zero
>> Ignorant cult members with thinking difficulties?
>>
>> I think you're losing the plot Manatee, and provided a good example of why they
>> voted for Trump.

I think you'll find that the scenes at the Capitol building after Trumps loss, with weirdos wearing tribal type clothing is indisputable proof they exist and support Trump.

However, those extremes are a minority. It is true however that in order to garner votes from every conceivable corner of US society Trump has pandered to them in their language, Some of those corners of US society are, to us, extreme. All the way from the deranged over the top christians to "incenels" "preppers" and over armed "Q Anon'ers". Each group small enough to be marginalised in society in normal times, however being pandered to by Trump gives them "presence"


We in the UK don't really understand the yanks. Extreme left to them is middle ground to us, The right is far right to us. We don't understand that outside the Liberal north east coast and California, exists a vast area of people that still cling to, and sometimes have to utilise the Wild West way of life.

At the end of the day Trump won on two things. The economy, and mass illegal immigration. Both of which the democrats failed to demonstrate as a concern or promote a plan to fix.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 8 Nov 24 at 12:08
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 12:58 
 That Election Over the Pond - Biggles
You overlook that there was a bi-partisan bill approved by congress to alleviate the illegal immigration situation but this was blocked by the senate. By blocking the measures, Trump could then argue that the Democrats were responsible for the mass influx but in truth it was his own party.
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 13:36 
 That Election Over the Pond - Zero
>> You overlook that there was a bi-partisan bill approved by congress to alleviate the illegal
>> immigration situation but this was blocked by the senate.

Because it didn't alleviate situation. A bi partisan bill is a publicity stunt, the senate was deliberately set up to be powerless by the founding fathers.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 12:36 
 That Election Over the Pond - zippy
>> And yet over half of voters did. Were they all of unsound mind?

There has got to be some moral ambiguity (IMHO).

To me, the misogyny, criminal conviction and attempted insurrection would all be unacceptable.

Perhaps their moral concerns aren't as high as mine.

Then again, more news about groups voting for Trump. This time the Amish, who I thought would never vote for a philanderer, have done so because they feel slighted by having to sell pasteurised milk.

Seems some people can ignore or overlook serious issues just to get their way or make their point. Something that I'm not very good at doing.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 13:24 
 That Election Over the Pond - maltrap
Trump once said “who wants an electric car that you drive for two hours then have to charge it
for six hours”.The first thing he will do is impose import duty on all Chinese electric vehicles
To protect Musk, who also happens to own X corp.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 13:39 
 That Election Over the Pond - sooty123
I don't think many cared or believed the stuff written about trump. They felt better off and safer under trump and wanted to go back there.

An ex dem campaign manager said no one cares about this issues when 40% of Americans are regularly skipping meals to make ends meet.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 14:02 
 That Election Over the Pond - Terry
The last few posts summarise the reasons well.

Trump delivers simple (and often simplistic) solutions, he speaks directly uninhibited by "woke" acceptability, he focuses on issues which voters are actually concerned about.

This is in sharp contrast to the conventional where careful choice of language dominates, half truths and statistics rule, moral and social issues are front stage. They are not trusted - often with good reason.

There is a similar shift in the UK. Folk voted in droves for Farage whose communication style is similar to Trump. A large number would vote again for Boris despite his proven deficiencies.

Labour won a huge majority due to the Reform vote and "anyone but the Tories" sentiment. Their popularity has plummeted since the election as it is clear they cannot deliver as communicated.

Without a major shift in public trust in politics, there will be a continued drift to the Trump, Farage, Johnson school of politics.

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New Thu 7 Nov 24 15:24 
 That Election Over the Pond - maltrap
Trump claims to be highly intelligent,during his last tenure he said that consuming bleach
Might be a way to combat Covid.
He will probably put Musk in charge of NASA.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 17:10 
 That Election Over the Pond - CGNorwich
Labour won a huge majority due to the Reform vote and "anyone but the Tories" sentiment. Their popularity has plummeted since the election as it is clear they cannot deliver as communicated.


Don't see how you can make that statement just four months after the General Election. I'm far from a natural Labour supporter but I voted Labour because the Conservative had been in power for 12 years, delivered very little, took us out of the EU and gave us two of the worst Prime Ministers this country has ever had.

Lets wait a few years, not a few weeks, beford we assess how they are doing.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 18:50 
 That Election Over the Pond - Terry
>> Don't see how you can make that statement just four months after the General Election.
>> I'm far from a natural Labour supporter but I voted Labour because the Conservative had
>> been in power for 12 years, delivered very little, took us out of the EU
>> and gave us two of the worst Prime Ministers this country has ever had.
>>
>> Lets wait a few years, not a few weeks, beford we assess how they are
>> doing.

Labour won the election with 34% of the votes, barely changed (+2%) since 2019. They won 138 more seats than all other parties combined mainly through the FPTP system (no complaints). 34% is the lowest achieved by any winning party (AFAIK).

According to an IPSOS poll dated 11th October:

- Rachel Reeves rating is now as Jeremy Hunt a year ago
- Labour goes from +6 net favourability upon taking office in July to -21 now
- 26% are favourable towards Keir Starmer, 52% are unfavourable (+8)

I agree we need to wait a few years before assessing how they are doing - there is no choice given their overwhelming majority. But there is little doubt their popularity has plummeted since the election. A triumph of expectation and rhetoric over reality/honesty.
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 19:31 
 That Election Over the Pond - Manatee

>> Trump delivers simple (and often simplistic) solutions, he speaks directly uninhibited by "woke" acceptability, he
>> focuses on issues which voters are actually concerned about.

Some of which they didn't know they were concerned about until he told them. People eating dogs and cats in Springfield. The ruined economy (it isn't, relatively speaking it's booming).

>> There is a similar shift in the UK. Folk voted in droves for Farage whose
>> communication style is similar to Trump. A large number would vote again for Boris despite
>> his proven deficiencies.

Exactly. A rabble rouser whose first job is to persuade people they have a terrible problem, point out the enemy, then offer an absurdly simple and unrealistic solution.

>> Labour won a huge majority due to the Reform vote and "anyone but the Tories"
>> sentiment. Their popularity has plummeted since the election

True

>>as it is clear they cannot deliver
>> as communicated.

It's not clear at all, how can it be? I suppose the Tories, having taken 14 years to break everything, would have had it sorted by now?


>>
>> Without a major shift in public trust in politics, there will be a continued drift
>> to the Trump, Farage, Johnson school of politics.

Maybe. But probably a new rabble rouser would have to emerge. Farage and Johnson have Shirley shot their bolts?
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New Thu 7 Nov 24 21:21 
 That Election Over the Pond - Robin O'Reliant

>> >>
>>
>> Maybe. But probably a new rabble rouser would have to emerge. Farage and Johnson have
>> Shirley shot their bolts?
>>

Don't you believe it. Johnson still has a lot of grass roots support, and Partygate has started to fade from people's memories. Charismatic figures can garner a lot of support and between them Starmer and Badenoch have the personality of a glass of water.
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 00:49 
 That Election Over the Pond - zippy
>>Charismatic figures can garner a lot of support and between them Starmer and Badenoch have
>>the personality of a glass of water.

Countries should feel invigorated after a general election, especially where there is a substantial change of leadership.

The first 4 or so months of this lot has been akin to a funeral dirge.
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 06:35 
 That Election Over the Pond - Manatee

>>
>> The first 4 or so months of this lot has been akin to a funeral
>> dirge.
>>

There's unpopular stuff that they perceive needs doing. In contrast to supposedly popular stuff like tax cuts and Rwanda fantasies that very much didn't need doing.
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 07:31 
 That Election Over the Pond - Rudedog
I thought US presidents can only run for two terms - does this mean this will be DT's last term or could he go on for another as he's had a break between terms?

So potentially we could have him until the early 2030's - if we are all still here!
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 09:20 
 That Election Over the Pond - bathtub tom
He's stated "vote for me and you'll never need to vote again". To me that means he wants to be life president.
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 10:02 
 That Election Over the Pond - zippy
>> He's stated "vote for me and you'll never need to vote again". To me that
>> means he wants to be life president.
>>

A dictatorship?

The constitution says two terns only. It's designed to prevent dictatorships, but the constitution can be changed. He has the majority in Congress and the Senate.

I wounder if he will concoct some crisis and then claim a president for life is the only thing that will save the country.

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New Fri 8 Nov 24 13:38 
 That Election Over the Pond - Zero
>> The constitution says two terns only. It's designed to prevent dictatorships, but the constitution can
>> be changed.

It's almost impossible to change the constitution.


Which is why the 2nd amendment (tho wilfully misinterpreted) is still there
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 8 Nov 24 at 13:41
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 13:43 
 That Election Over the Pond - zippy
>> Which is why the 2nd amendment (tho wilfully misinterpreted) is still there

And the other 26....!

He has Congress, the Sentate and a big majority. If he threatens to disenfranchise those representatives and senators who don't tow the line he may succeed.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 8 Nov 24 at 15:50
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 15:29 
 That Election Over the Pond - Zero
>> And the other 26....!

You can add but near impossible to change. He will never get a vote to do that, not all republicans are Trumpish.

Anyway, he is not looking as good as he was, might not survive this term.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 8 Nov 24 at 15:30
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 19:20 
 That Election Over the Pond - Kevin
>.. not all republicans are Trumpish.

Correct. Rural Republicans are typically god-fearin', law-abidin' folks who would probably be more horrified than the rest of us by the scenes of ignorant cult members with thinking difficulties storming The Capitol.
It doesn't excuse Trump's stupidity in inciting them but it is absurd to even try to claim that the yobs involved are representative of Republican voters which some sections of the mainstream and social media are trying to do.
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New Fri 8 Nov 24 16:08 
 That Election Over the Pond - sooty123
>> He has Congress, the Sentate and a big majority. If he threatens to disenfranchise those
>> representatives and senators who don't tow the line he may succeed.

There's not really much chance, he needs 2/3 majority in both houses and 3/4 of the states. Which he hasn't got and won't.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 11 Nov 24 at 10:16
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New Sat 9 Nov 24 20:26 
 That Election Over the Pond - Robin O'Reliant
I can see Trump putting pressure on the Ukranians to recognise that Crimea is now a part of Russia and to give up any claim to it in return for Putin to withdraw his forces from Ukraine and accept their right to independence. Both sides would then be able to claim a victory to their own sides and allow them out of a war that looks like it could otherwise drag on for years and cost both sides a fortune in lives and money.

The US have a strong bargaining tool - Ukraine objects and they cut off all military aid, Russia won't play ball and they go all out in supplying all the military hardware Ukraine needs without restrictions on use.
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