Non-motoring > More Private Prosecution Woes Legal Questions
Thread Author: zippy Replies: 23
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New Sat 17 Aug 24 16:37 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - zippy
When companies are allowed to undertake their own prosecutions - perhaps they saw a way of gaming the system to ensure wins and hope that no one will notice...

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/article/2024/aug/15/tens-thousands-train-fare-fines-to-be-quashed-england-wales

Apparently " but several of these cases were brought under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which is not allowed under the procedure."
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New Sat 17 Aug 24 17:58 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - Bromptonaut
Procedural cockup rather then Horizon style conspiracy.

I doubt many of those wrongly convicted had paid their fare and had a ticket to prove it.

That said, the whole Single Justice Procedure thing stinks.
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New Sat 17 Aug 24 18:08 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - zippy
>>That said, the whole Single Justice Procedure thing stinks.

Why? Seriously, I know very little about it, save for it seems that a disproportionate number of women get prosecuted for TV licence crimes.
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New Sat 17 Aug 24 18:19 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - Bromptonaut
Responding needs some thought and reading.

Give me until tomorrow.
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New Sat 17 Aug 24 20:28 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - Biggles
So they were guilty but not guilty on a technicality. It is right that the past convictions are overturned but there needs to be a simple system for punishing the offenders.
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New Sat 17 Aug 24 21:36 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - zippy
>> So they were guilty but not guilty on a technicality. It is right that the
>> past convictions are overturned but there needs to be a simple system for punishing the
>> offenders.
>>

Even if they were guilty, justice needs to be done properly. Were they found guilty without any representation? Did they get any legal advice? Etc.

You can't cut corners and speed things up because of the assumption of guilt, otherwise the ultimate extension is that more and more complex cases will go down the route of SJP.
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 17 Aug 24 at 21:39
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New Sun 18 Aug 24 08:49 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - Bromptonaut
The decision of the Chief Magistrate on what were test cases is her:

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Railway-Ruling-Final-Judgment-1.pdf

While most train operators were prosecuting under railway byelaws four were using other legislation. AIU prosecutions under the byelaws can be handled under the Single Justice Procedure (SJP) but the other legislation they cannot. Nonetheless something in excess of 4,000 people were convicted under SJP where the law did not in fact permit that.

No Magistrate nor the legal adviser who should be supporting them asked the 'am I empowered to do this' question. It looks as though it came to light when DfT let MoJ know ToCs were using this route; I'm guessing that lawyers or sharp witted officials in one department or the other spotted the lacuna and sounded the alarm.

By the time it got to court all parties agreed that there was no legal basis for the conviction and the question was how to clear up the mess.

The SJP process is set out in para 10 on in the judgement.

The wider problem with it is that it's become a sausage machine where cases are decided by a single Magistrate sitting on their own, in private, and with next to no publicity beyond a list of the cases being dealt with.

Defendants are found guilty in their absence, with no legal representation and in many cases no knowledge of how their case has been dealt with.

It's a scandal boiling away under th surface. One might hope that these cases will throw the spotlight on and leverage some reform.

But I'm not holding my breath!
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 18 Aug 24 at 08:50
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New Sun 18 Aug 24 09:47 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - Falkirk Bairn
A woman who was one of the 5 cases brought to appeal stated the following on Breakfast TV

Summary
She went to the unmanned station and the Ticket Machine would not accept her card.
She got on the train thinking she could pay a Ticket Inspector / pay at the other end.
She was prosecuted via SJP, fined for travelling on a train without a ticket.

True she did not have a ticket BUT there is not 100% proof she was trying to avoid paying.
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New Mon 19 Aug 24 09:20 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - CGNorwich
She went to the unmanned station and the Ticket Machine would not accept her card.

So she says

She got on the train thinking she could pay a Ticket Inspector / pay at the other end.

There are notices at stations clearly stating this is not the case

She was prosecuted via SJP, fined for travelling on a train without a ticket.

Correctly so.
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New Mon 19 Aug 24 10:26 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - Bromptonaut
>> There are notices at stations clearly stating this is not the case

There are notices to that effect on our line but people without tickets paud the normal fare to the conductor when they came down the train to check tickets. One bloke paid that way every time. And presumably evaded payment every time the conductor didn't get the length of the train by his destination which he stated to be Long Buckby.

>> She was prosecuted via SJP, fined for travelling on a train without a ticket.

Prosecution MAY have been correct. It's agreed that the SJP was not authorised for use in those cases. It may be a technicality but the Chief Magistrate has said the cases were a nullity and fines etc are being refunded.
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New Mon 19 Aug 24 16:44 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - sooty123

>> Correctly so.
>>

Clearly not otherwise this wouldn't be news
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New Sun 18 Aug 24 12:08 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - zippy
>>Defendants are found guilty in their absence, with no legal representation and in many cases no
>>knowledge of how their case has been dealt with.

Are defendants not told of the impending court case so that they can turn up with a solicitor?
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New Sun 18 Aug 24 22:51 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - zippy
Peed off having just got to my hotel for tomorrow's meeting and they have tried saying they haven't got my reservation- not a happy bunny- found it after I dug out the email confirming the booking.

Looking at the carpark they are full up so I guess that has something to do with it. Anyway after driving almost 220 miles I wasn't going anywhere else.

Back to the trains and prosecution....

Shame the TOCs can't be prosecuted for fraud when they take your money but don't provide the promised service- eg cancelled trains, late trains or one real bugbear of mine- deliberately not stopping at scheduled stations to make up lost time - I feel robbed of my valuable time whe. They do this and it's all to save money because they know they have to make more refunds if they are late to busier stations!!

Moan over and ease excuses typos I am typing this on my phone.
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New Sat 7 Sep 24 19:47 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - zippy
www.gbnews.com/news/bbc-licence-fee-man-cancer-prosecuted-missing-payment

Seems to me, if he was in hospital, he couldn't have been watching TV at home?
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New Sat 7 Sep 24 20:07 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - smokie
It's an annual "contract", you can't have months on and months off.

Does seem a little harsh though.

Is GB News the one with Piers, Farage and Rees Mogg?
Last edited by: smokie on Sat 7 Sep 24 at 20:07
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New Sat 7 Sep 24 21:47 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - zippy
>> It's an annual "contract", you can't have months on and months off.
>>
>> Does seem a little harsh though.
>>

Seems you can cancel the TV licence mid term...

www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/cancellations-and-refunds-top7#

As he was ill, it does seem harsh as he could have cancelled it otherwise.
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New Sun 8 Sep 24 00:49 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - Terry
This demonstrates a complete lack of judgement or consideration. The fine may have been correctly issued without knowledge of the difficult circumstances surrounding non payment - a swift apology etc should have been forthcoming.

However BBC contract our their license fee collection - key players are Capita and the Post Office amongst other.

GB News specialist skill is skewed garbage and predictably want to rant about the license fee and the BBC. Whilst I agree funding and output of the BBC needs real review, the real issue is how yet another public body appears to be in denial of its basic responsibility towards the public.
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New Sun 8 Sep 24 08:33 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - Falkirk Bairn
TV Licence Collection / chasing licence fee etc outsourced to Crapita PLC
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New Sun 8 Sep 24 09:58 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - Bromptonaut
The 'in hospital for cancer surgery' makes for a good headline but most people are in and out in pretty short order. The underlying issue was that the direct debit to pay his licence fee by installments failed.

The organisations quoted include 'defund the BBC.' The Taxpayers Alliance is, IMHO, not a credible campaign outfit.

If you read the article to the end the court case, defendant pleaded guilty with mitigation and was dealt with under the Single Justice Procedure.
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New Thu 3 Oct 24 13:29 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - zippy
On the radio - heard snippets between work calls...

Magistrates decide Single Justice Procedure cases in 45 seconds on average - not enough time to read the files apparently - it really seems to be rubber stamping.

A number of cases were sent to barristers to review and they found a significant proportion would not have normally been prosecuted.
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New Thu 3 Oct 24 14:17 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - Bromptonaut
As I said upthread Zippy it's a stinking mess.

If the press could raise their eyes above the PM's navel and investigate/campaign they'd do a valuable service.
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New Thu 3 Oct 24 18:30 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - Kevin
>If the press could raise their eyes above the PM's navel and investigate/campaign they'd do a valuable service.

Yeah, I bet you're not the only one praying that all these grubby revelations about our elected govt. would go away.
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New Thu 3 Oct 24 21:10 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - Bromptonaut
>> Yeah, I bet you're not the only one praying that all these grubby revelations about
>> our elected govt. would go away.

It was news when it emerged but it's had the life thrashed out of it.

And even if our elected government were totally corrupt it'd not be a surprise.
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New Thu 3 Oct 24 21:36 
 More Private Prosecution Woes - TV Licence now - Kevin
>It was news when it emerged but it's had the life thrashed out of it.

On the contrary. Starmer now paying for some of the freebies and questions being asked about what Alli was doing in Syria and Iraq.

>And even if our elected government were totally corrupt it'd not be a surprise.

I'm speechless.
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