We're in the final throes of speccing the new kitchen, destined for install in Nov (was Aug but that's another set of stories!!)
Layout is very similar to existing. The existing kitchen has fluorescent tubes under the cupboards which give a great light for working at the work surfaces and we want to try to replicate that.
Almost to the point of just moving them to the new units, as so far I'm not sure I've yet seen any lights quite so bright and without shadow, and that you can just switch on and off as you want without having to wave your hand around.
I looked at LED lights on a roll but I don't think they'd be bright enough.
However someone here must have done the same so I'm interested in what solutions others might have found.
PS the fitter's planner was here yesterday and suggested a hot water tap. that you can make a cuppa from directly. Seemed a good idea will I priced it up - over £1k! Does anyone have one, if so are they any good? Seems rather expensive to me. That'd pay for a quite a few kettles!!!
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When we had our kitchen done a few years ago the company suggested LED lights under the cupboards. They're circular things a couple of inches in diameter, not spots but with the lighting element around their circumference. I think they're better than the bathroom type incandescent strips we've had before and certainly adequate for what we need.
Away from home for another week so cannot provide a brand etc.
My son has a boiling tap in his kitchen. OK for instant coffee and if you're happy making tea in a mug with a teabag it'll do that too. Wouldn't be so sure it would work at home as we use leaf tea in a pot and you can tell if the water's even a couple of degrees off the boil.
Given we have an electric kettle in a place that wouldn't be used much otherwise we'll stick with that.
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I've LEDs on a roll that I fitted when the kitchen was fettled some years ago. They're plenty bright enough (though of course, they come in different colour temperatures and lumens/m).
Underneath the wall units at the rear connection with the wall, and cut to the appropriate length they light the full length of each area and (unless the units are well above eye-level) are unobtrusive.
They needed a (small) driver for each contiguous length, and I've mounted these above the units to make them less conspicuous.
Mine are from a cut-to-length self-adhesive roll (though cut to approximate (over) length and pre-wired by the supplier). If I were buying now, I'd buy the appropriate aluminium profile mounting channel to make an even neater job.
Mine came from here (I use them for 12v motorhome lighting), but there are various suppliers.
www.atenlighting.co.uk/product-category/led-strip/
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I've got the LED on a roll stuck on the underside of the cupboards. Can't remember what brightness, but they're on 12V - and they're plenty bright enough. You can get various strips with different light outputs if you want brighter - I've got a 5m strip on the front of the garage which is 5000 lumen (and needs an 80W transformer....) - that would be plenty bright enough for a kitchen!
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We had these fitted in our new kitchen:
www.toolstation.com/sensio-axis-led-striplight-240v-natural-white/p61336
Give bright shadowless light. Convertible white/warm white.
So bright that we can do without the ceiling lights!
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The boily water taps are ok in a soft water area, otherwise you will regret it (was the advice of the local kitchen shop).
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The chap who suggested the water tap said the one he has filters cold and hot, and there is a changeable filter which he said he gets cheap enough from eBay. Even they looked quite dear to me though!! :-) I suspect we'll get by without that.
I have a fair few smart LED strips of the cheap Chinese variety (usually need a USB plug) - round windows for Christmas lights, a strip behind the bit of wood above my garage door to give a bit of subtle decorative light after dark, and also to light up the cupboard under the stairs. I suspect it's cos they are cheap but I don't think they would really be bright enough for our need. Though just looking at T&Es link ( - I had to sign up to see detail & prices - always annoys me!) the density of LEDs per metre is probably inadequate on the cheapies. I do have some spare cheap strips though so I will drag them out and see how they perform.
These would probably be my choice had Neiltoo not shown me the Toolstation ones, which are close to what we already have. I just need to persuade the installers that the cabling done by our "builder" some years ago doesn't need ripping out for non-compliance (as some have suggested about a not-so-old consumer unit - which we think was replaced at quite some cost less than 10 years ago!)
I'd be interested in a link to yours Bromp when you can. Are they mains and if so how do you switch them? As I said, hand waving is not really an option.
I do a lot with motion and illuminance sensors now and would probably be using some smart switching - just on and off rather than "scenes" - based on presence and ambient light levels :-)
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Ours are mains or at least connected to the mains. I don't think there's a transformer involved not absolutely certain.
They're controlled on or off by a conventional switch. Ideally they'd be controlled from the same switch as the spots in the ceiling but for whatever reason they're on one by the cooker. Occasional minor irritation rather than inconvenience.
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Thanks. Having had another look around COB strip lights might be the way to go. They are high density LEDs on a roll (maybe like wot T&E said) and are much higher density than I currently use - so more useful as "proper" lighting I suspect. I have plenty of time to choose and can get one flown in from Chinna a lot cheaper than I can buy here to try it out.
EDIT: The recommended hot water device was the Insinkerator e.g. insinkerator.emerson.com/en-gb/instant-steaming-hot-water-taps/4-in-1-tap
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 21 Jul 24 at 13:16
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The boily water taps generally aren't wholly instantaneous and store near-boiling water in a dewar. You can see why they might cack up with hard water.
We have a really nice kitchen mixer tap that also has a filtered cold outlet. We barely use it. The Brita jug removes about half the hardness (about double the sink filter) and we use that for the kettle. It still scales up and I boil half a pint of vinegar in it occasionally.
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We currently have a 3 way tap with a Brita P1000 undersink filter for the cold. Like you, despite filling the kettle from the filtered stuff it still needs decoking once in a while. I think we'll keep that as it is though.
I did for a second consider a water softener but again not convinced about it. I will read up on them again but I doubt we'll get one - though now would be the time if we wanted one.
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The two best things we did with the rebuild were the water softener and the MVHR. There's really no downside to the softener I can see except maybe £50 a year on salt.
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>>There's really no downside to the softener I can see except maybe £50 a
>> year on salt.
I suppose that's offset against the saving in soap and detergents, however don't it make the shower floor like skating rink!
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OK, I'm reading about water softeners and maybe not such a bad idea. Where does it fit in the circuit? Immediately after the stop cock (which we have in the kitchen)?
Do you drink softened water, in hot drinks and on it's own? Are all your taps in the house on it, and your water supply to the hot circuit? So both sides of the shower? (H&C). External taps on it too (car washing and watering the garden)?
Wish I'd thought of it before the bloke came round last week to assess the work...
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The usual arrangement would be to have the softener at the water inlet but to run an unsoftened water pipe to the kitchen so the water you drink is untreated.There are non-chemical systems which don't need that but you have to believe in the insert rearranging the crystal structure of the deposits so they do not form a layer (or something like that).
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As Biggles says it usually goes by the stopcock after a take off for untreated water. Our outside taps and the kitchen cold tap are not softened. They should also be installed with a bypass so you basically tee the inlet and outlet on to the feed and put a valve in between. I can shut the isolators on the softener and open the bypass any time I want e.g. if the softener were to break down or spring a leak.
Drinking softened water should not harm you but it does have slightly raised sodium. The bathrooms and the utility room sink all have softened hot and cold and I don't worry about taking a glass of water from there when I go to bed, or brushing my teeth with it.
In a perfect world I would have had a car washing tap outside with soft water! As I don't, I do a final swill from a watering can filled in the utility room so it doesn't dry spotty!
As we were building new, I brought the riser in to the integral garage and put the softener in there. For a retro fit they usually end up under or next to the kitchen sink which is where builders usually put the riser.
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... and there's my logic. They're doing some re-plumbing anyway under the sink for the new kitchen so it wouldn't be too much more (or at all disruptive) to put one in.
Having said that. the quote for the necessary additional work has come in this morning and it was considerably more than expected. They seem to have allowed for a lot of rewiring and renewal etc which I'm not sure is really essential except for compliance. Yet next door still has his original consumer box (50 years ago). This will be our second new one in maybe 10 years, both at great expense. All a bit annoying.
Anyway - thanks all for the info.
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Our water is about as hard as it gets I think. Anyone got worse.
Drinking water hardness for ******
“The water in your area is very hard.
To help set your domestic appliances, the water hardness in different units is:
356.61 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium Carbonate
142.644 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium
24.82 °C :Degrees Clark
35.661 °F :Degrees French
20.255 °dH :Degrees German
3.566 mmol/l :Millimoles”
As per Anglian Water. All water companies should have this info. On their web sites.
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Ours is just under that.
The water in your area is very hard.
To help set your domestic appliances, the water hardness in different units is:
345.1 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium Carbonate
138.04 mg/l (or parts per million) :Calcium
24.019 °C :Degrees Clark
34.51 °F :Degrees French
19.602 °dH :Degrees German
3.451 mmol/l :Millimoles
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Godforsaken corn wall:
The water in PL15 *** is classified as Soft
The Sewerage Authority name is South West Water
Hardness Information: Total Hardness level of 18 mg/l Ca
45 parts per million
3 Clarke degrees
5 French degrees
3 German degrees
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Best to drink beer than water, me thinks:
Page 1 southwestwater.co.uk
Water Quality Parameters and their Standards
Water Quality Report for WATER INTO SUPPLY ZONE ST
CLEER
Water Quality Report
Lead ug/l 10 12 0 0.09 0.21 0.9350
Nickel ug/l 20 12 0 3.30 3.30 3.30
Fluoride mg/l 1.5 24 0 0.10 0.10 0.10
E.coli no/100ml 0 392 0 0 0 0
Enterococci MPN/100ml 0 10 10 0 0.80 8
Nitrate as NO3 mg/l 50 9 0 1.60 3.09 3.51
Total THM ug/l 100 10 0 19.70 36.44 56.60
Total Trichlorethene +
Tetrachloroethene
ug/l 10 10 0 0 0 0
Total Pesticides ug/l 0.5 26 0 0 0 0.0050
Nitrite as NO2 mg/l 0.5 9 0 0.0170 0.02 0.0170
Selenium ug/l 10 10 0 1.20 1.20 1.20
a***nic ug/l 10 10 0 0.62 0.62 0.62
Benzene ug/l 1 10 0 0.20 0.20 0.20
1 2-Dichloroethane ug/l 3 10 0 0.20 0.20 0.20
Antimony ug/l 5 10 0 0.10 0.10 0.10
Benzo(a)Pyrene ng/l 10 12 0 0.50 0.50 0.50
Chromium ug/l 50 10 0 0.80 0.80 0.80
Copper mg/l 2 12 0 0.0019 0.01 0.0664
Bromate ug/l 10 9 0 0.10 0.10 0.10
Cadmium ug/l 5 10 0 0.06 0.06 0.06
Mandatory European Standards
Parameter Unit PCV Number
of
Samples
Taken in
Period
% Exceeding
PCV
Min Mean Max
Period: 01/01/2023 to 31/12/2023
Summary Of Test Results for ZCW9
Aluminium ug/l 200 38 0 17.80 35.20 79.60
Colour as Pt/Co mg/l 20 39 0 2 2 2
Mandatory National Standards
Parameter Unit PCV Number
of
Samples
Taken in
Period
% Exceeding
PCV
Min Mean Max
Page 4southwestwater.co.uk
Taste (Quantitative) DN 0 38 0 0 0 0
Sodium mg/l 200 10 0 7.40 7.86 8.30
Turbidity NTU 4 38 0 0.07 0.10 0.18
Tetrachloromethane ug/l 3 10 0 0.20 0.20 0.20
Odour (Quantitative) DN 0 38 0 0 0 0
Iron ug/l 200 38 0 7.60 9.28 53.90
Manganese ug/l 50 38 0 0.9250 2.80 8.18
Mandatory National Standards
Parameter Unit PCV Number
of
Samples
Taken in
Period
% Exceeding
PCV
Min Mean Max
Sulphate mg/l 250 23 0 15.30 23.33 30.80
pH pH units 6.5 to 9.5 37 0 7.20 7.62 8.10
Conductivity at 20 'C uS/cm 2500 142 0 117 133.75 160
TVC at 37 for 2 days no/ml 98 0 0 0.38 15
TVC at 22 for 3 days no/ml 98 0 0 0.31 6
Total Organic Carbon mg/l 25 0 0.74 1.19 1.71
C. perfringens no/100ml 0 144 0 0 0 0
Ammonium as NH4 mg/l 0.5 37 0 0.08 0.08 0.08
Coliform no/100ml 0 392 0 0 0 0
Chloride mg/l 250 24 0 12 13.92 16
Indicator Parameters
Parameter Unit PCV Number
of
Samples
Taken in
Period
% Exceeding
PCV
Min Mean Max
Chlorine Total (On Site) mg/l 98 0 0.15 0.55 0.91
Hardness Total as Ca mg/l 31 0 13 17.35 21
Phosphorus ug/l 38 0 580 649.58 742
Chlorine Free (On Site) mg/l 98 0 0.09 0.50 0.83
Other Parameters not covered by the Regulations
Parameter Unit PCV Number
of
Samples
Taken in
Period
% Exceeding
PCV
Min Mean Max
Page 5southwestwater.co.uk
1 mg/l is 1 milligram per litre
1 ug/l is 1 microgram per litre
Therefore;
DN - Dilution Number - The Laboratory Panel uses DN as a reporting value, however the
standard is 'acceptable to customers and no abnormal change'
NTU - Nephelometric Turbidity Unit
1000 ug (micrograms) = 1 mg (milligram)
Reference;
1000 ml (millilitres) = 1 l (litre)
1000 g = 1 kg (kilogram)
1000 mg = 1 g (gram)
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Here are the scores from Wokingham...
20.43 English / clark degrees 29.13 French degrees
16.32 German degrees 2.91 mmol/l
17.01 Grains per US gallon 20.43 Grains per British Gallon
116.53 mg/l Ca 291 mg/l CaCO3
Hard but not well 'ard.
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Pretty hard...ours is 295 CaCO3 according to Thames Watter. Concurs with my little testing kit which has a resolution of 30 mg/l and says 300.
The softener has a setting (I just enter the 300) which determines how much water it treats before regenerating.
It's set to do regens at 3am - it can't supply treated water while it's doing a regen. I've never tried running a tap while it's doing it so I have no idea what happens. Maybe it has an internal bypass. (BWT WS455HF)
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...it probably delivers in chunks...
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So 10% of the samples have an enterococci value which was too high. That doesn't sound too reassuring. Are you planning on installing a UV treatment unit?
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We had our kitchen re-done 2 years ago. The undercupboard LED lighting runs the entire width of the cupboards, they are actually very good in lighting terms and are generally wat we use after dark. There is a novel switching system - the switch is is essentially wire-less (apart from power to the actual switch) the switch connects to its "mate" accross the room wirelessly. An expensive solution to a problem that the electrician failed to address at first fix stage. He acnowledged his error and didn't charge for the system.
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>>So 10% of the samples have an enterococci value which was too high. That doesn't sound too reassuring. Are you planning on installing a UV treatment unit?
Funnily enough we had a UV treatment unit at the previous place, but that was for a private water supply.
I use a zerowater.co.uk/collections/water-filter-jugs and only use the water for making tea/coffee
The ideal would be reverse osmosis to get all that 'stuff' out, but they waste a lotta water and energy.
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Perfect water here in Arcadia. Gravity brings it down a big Victorian pipe just at the end of my garden from Thirlmere and Haweswater..
I don't know why any shops round here need to stock bottled eau and certainly no-one needs to buy it.
No kettles furring up or washing machines full of clat. Sorry that you lesser mortals have to put up with it all !
Smug of Manchester.
Ted
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>>Smug of Manchester.
Ah but ... do thems Victorian pipes come in the lead flavour??
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Proof then that Mancunians really are softies. Nobody as hard as those from Norfolk :-)
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…as hard as short planks? ;-)
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'Perfect water here in Arcadia. Gravity brings it down a big Victorian pipe just at the end of my garden from Thirlmere and Haweswater.'
Indeed it is, and rather noticeable. There's nothing more pleasurable than showering and shaving in south Manchester. Proper foam and proper bubbles.
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As it's my kitchen and my thread I'm quite happy for it to drift around related any queries I might have, or other general related chatter :-)
So today's query. If a consumer unit was changed say 10 or 15 years ago by a qualified electrician for whatever the standard was at that time, and assuming it is all tidy, undamaged and not overloaded, and an electrician comes along to do some required re-wiring from the CU to the new kitchen and assuming there is adequate capacity in the CU for whatever additional circuit is required, is it obligatory for the consumer unit to be replaced with whatever the current standard is, or just recommended?
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 24 Jul 24 at 09:01
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Can't answer as a non-expert.
But my CU has these
www.consumerunitworld.co.uk/fusebox-rcbo-32amp-type-a---b-curve-rta063230b-3830-p.asp
RCBO's in it, rather than RCDs or MCDs. Maybe it's something to do with that?
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My understanding is that if the installation was compliant at the time, then it shouldn't be condemned unless it is unsafe.
Any new wiring for a new circuit will, however, have to confirm to current regulations.
I am far from an expert, but AIUI this may require RCBO protection depending on how and where it is run.
Whilst that might be messy with older kit, your unit is potentially young enough to incorporate such protection anyway.
FWIW my experience with sparkies is that they will often try to "upsell", and a good few I've encountered patently have less insight into the regulations than my rather limited amount.
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Thanks. It's hard to find a definitive answer but the RCBO theory may have some legs.
Either way the internet tells me somewhere around £650 absolute tops for parts and labour, not the £1200 + VAT my man wants, though I do appreciate this may be out of date (tho one indicative page which is broadly in line with others was apparently updated this month) and also I am in a notoriously expensive area for trades.
"upsell" seems to be the name of the game on this job.
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We had some issues with our electrics. We get quite few power cuts. On return of the power, sometimes the switch in the unit would trip, so power wasn’t restored to the house. Three times last year this happened while we were away, and we lost the freezer contents.
I called a trusty electrician. Full inspection of every socket and appliance revealed not much, but possibly an untraceable dodgy earth somewhere.
Anyway, we also were told our ten year old unit might be to blame, and it wasn’t rcbo, it was rcd.
Bit the bullet. New unit fitted, also certificate for all the house wiring. The inspection certificate was mandatory when fitting the unit, at least from him. It was, I think, about £800 all in.
Since then, all well, although ironically I think we’ve had about one village power cut in a few months. Last winter there were a few a week, so see what happens come December.
At least the certificate will be done if we sell in the next couple of years.
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I expect our inheritees (?) will be the next ones to sell the house but I have heard more info - whether absolutely true or not I'm not sure - but our newish CU is a plastic one and is under the stairs, which is apparently a no-no due to the fire risk under current regs. So if the sparky is going to do any other work which needs a cert - and he is (new cable for cooker) - he won't be able to sign it off without a new CU.
So it is coming down to what is a reasonable cost, and I think I said above that the internet tells me that £1250 isn't - probably £800 tops.
I really don't want to be splitting haors with the fitter as he seems a nice bloke and he's given me lots of confidence that they can do a good job in a good timeframe. So I expect ultimately I'll have to bite the bullet but I hope there will be a reasonable discussion about the detail first!!
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Our new one has a metal "fire door" on it that's a pain. If you want to see or flip any switches, you have to hold this heavy shutter up with one hand. Bah.
I might put a magnet in there to hold it while doing anything I suppose.
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Just to add, smokie, maybe you have a high labour charge? I just looked at mine, which is
dsselectrical.co.uk/our-prices
and he is £65 an hour, which seems ok. My plumber is £45, and my general do anything you like chap is £30, I think.
This is all near Cambridge, which is usually toppy. No idea how these compare?
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Yes current regs are for a metal CU - seemingly there were some instances of plastic (non flammable) ones going up in flames! If it's just a cooker circuit, you could just loop out the live side of the current CU and put in a separate switch for the cooker which will be compliant. But you might still get into difficulties in signing off the other electrical work, depending on what is being done.
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>>
>> So it is coming down to what is a reasonable cost, and I think I
>> said above that the internet tells me that £1250 isn't - probably £800 tops.
As someone said to me, the internet isn't pricing the job i am! Jobs are priced according to what's it worth for them to do, how busy they are and if it's a faff.
>> I really don't want to be splitting haors with the fitter as he seems a
>> nice bloke and he's given me lots of confidence that they can do a good
>> job in a good timeframe. So I expect ultimately I'll have to bite the bullet
>> but I hope there will be a reasonable discussion about the detail first!!
>
If they're decent they'll be happy to chat through the job first.
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>> So if the sparky is going to do any other work which needs a cert - and he is
>> (new cable for cooker) - he won't be able to sign it off without a new CU.
He most certainly can sign it off without replacing the consumer unit. Just because it’s made of plastic doesn’t mean that it’s intrinsically unsafe.
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>> >> So if the sparky is going to do any other work which needs a
>> cert - and he is
>> >> (new cable for cooker) - he won't be able to sign it off without
>> a new CU.
>>
>> He most certainly can sign it off without replacing the consumer unit. Just because it’s
>> made of plastic doesn’t mean that it’s intrinsically unsafe.
>>
As I said above. If the new work can be undertaken in line with current regulations (no pun intended) then there is, AFAIK, no requirement to change the CU.
If the existing CU can take an individual RCBO for the new circuit then, (RCD circuit protection being a current requirement, and RCBO seems to be the recommended method) subject to the rest of the new installation being compliant, I suspect there is no further change required.
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We had another installer yesterday independent of Wrens, initially to "size it up" for a ball park figure.
He also said he would just rip out everything in the kitchen and start again - wiring & plumbing, and almost definitely their electrician would put a new CU in.
While I can see the logic in this it is so wasteful, in time and resource. For instance I replaced an outside socket which spurs into the kitchen last autumn with the latest spec and I think that would go in the bin. I have replaced a number of double sockets with USB ones in recent years and they'd all go. It just seems to be the way they work.
Overall the latest chap appeared to come in somewhat cheaper than the overall Wrens cost + additions and I felt he is less likely to further expand the cost unless a completely curved ball appears. So I'm going to ask him for a more detailed quote.
Such as wasteful throw-away world these days...
And if you're thinking of getting a new kitchen take the price of the units and appliances and at least double it for the fitting costs!!!
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New consumer units come under Building Regs and as such the Local Authority have to be notified. Its all pretty straight forward as long as the Sparky is qualified and compliant.
When you come to sell a Completion Certificate (or whatever they are called) can be downloaded from their website for the Solicitors exchange pack you create,
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>> New consumer units come under Building Regs and as such the Local Authority have to
>> be notified.
TBH, all residential and ancillary electrical works are subject to Building Regs, regardless of who does them. As such, they should all conform to the current standards and regulations. (and, if you do them yourself there's a very small chance the local buildings control will want to inspect - not an easy job for sub-surface wiring ;-) )
Some works, however, are "notifiable", and as such the local buildings control have to be actively informed, and that essentially requires certification by a qualified person. That means you get an NICEIC or NAPIT qualified installer to do the work and certify, or you do it yourself and get one of the latter to certify only (not an easy option unless you can call on friends/family).
Not a lot of work is now notifiable, though adding a new circuit to a consumer unit is. Some years back, a lot of non-notifiable work was moved into the notifiable category, but the situation reverted after a few years (I suspect the change was found to be unworkable, with people either avoiding the changed circumstances, or the increased workload for qualified electricians proving unsustainable). There are a number of sparkies who will still refer to the interim situation to insist that work must be certified to drum up work, however.
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I did a fair amount of electrical work in my daughters 2 up 2 down particularly upstairs where we had the two bedrooms refurbished. Each had a single 13 A socket in.
I basically extended the ring which also fed down to the downstairs sockets (concrete floors). A lot of extra double sockets were fitted and I upgraded the main lighting circuit from 1.0mm to 1.5mm as a new bathroom had put additional potential load on it. Maybe unecessary. The consumer unit had already been upgraded and a newish kitchen was on a separate circuit..
A local electrician who had properties in the area conducted a very thorough inspection and issued a report. All he found was a dodgy earth on a socket I'd not worked on and a damaged PIR shield on an outside light which I promised to change. £120 and he was complimentary of my work. Could have winged it at the sale but my conscience was clear. All cable is dated in any event.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 28 Jul 24 at 13:00
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This project is progressing slowly. We now have a fitter booked for November.
We were discussing what kind of floor to have. Currently it's ties which they are going to have to rip up and level for whatever comes next - the green colour is just too rich for what we want.
So tiles or laminates? Seems both can be had for about the same price. The fitter will be sending someone else in to fit the floor and isn't an expert but said laminate with tongued edge is more a d-i-y product and was more keen on tiles. I think I am too but I'm not sure how they stack up against laminate practically, in use rather than installation. Any thoughts?
He also said if were having tiles he'd recommend electric underfloor heating. It's about 20sq m so it wouldn't be that cheap - Warmup from Topps Tiles comes in at about £1k for parts alone if I'm reading it right. He said he has it and leaves it on all the time but I wonder how much that casts. But on the "for" side, the room is very cold in winter which affects the rest of the house to some degree so if it were warmer then that could be a bonus. So any experiences of electric u/floor heating would be appreciated too.
(The costs of this job are turning out way beyond my expectation. There is a lot of additional work which it seems all fitters expect you to pay to have done - if you can find a fitter in the first place!! Wrens said their fitting only included the cabinets and I didn't imagine with the extra fitting costs it would come to something a bit over what I paid for my new MG5 a few years back. And then there's the enhancements (i.e. stuff we've lived without for all these years but seem now part and parcel - some optional but it's becoming all to easy to say oh it's only another £1k, go for it. It's fair to say I've struggled to come to terms with the cost!!!)
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We put tiles in the hall and kitchen/living room, we do have wet underfloor heating off the heat pump. Not sure I'd want to pay for direct electric UFH though. Is your floor insulated? Great for cleaning.
Except for bathrooms (tiles floors) we have engineered wood 'click' flooring through the rest of the house. About £40-£50 a square metre from e.g. Stories Flooring. Joiner installed it all, loose laid on the proper Kährs 'underlay'. He was on a daily rate with his mate but I guess it worked out around £20 a metre to lay. I could have done it myself, had I had the time and inclination. He glued along the end joints IIRC using ordinary wood glue which I'm not sure was ideal - I can hear it cracking sometimes when I walk on it but it doesn't seem to be doing any harm. OTH I wouldn't use it where it might get wet, even with impermeable laminate - I don't think getting water on/under it would end well.
For a kitchen the alternative for me if you have a good flat floor would be 'LVT' (cf. Amtico/Karndean). It probably isn't necessary to pay for those brands. Lots around £25/metre but glue down installation is obviously dearer than plonking down loose laid. We have it in the village shop, it's been down 3 years, heavily trafficked by people coming in and out from outside and it still looks as good as new when mopped down.
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Thanks - and I'd forgotten he also mentioned Karndean. Someone said it's easier to replace a damaged tile than other floorings. The floor will be levelled whatever, once the tiles come up.
The floor isn't insulated but (for extra money of course) you can put insulated boards in with the cable. Having read more about UFH since the post above I am convinced that an insulated floor would be essential. Cleve marketing blurb maybe :-)
There really are too many choices these days!!!
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Bear in mind the kitchen floor will be taking some abuse such as spillages and mopping. Maybe foot traffic if its a route in and out of your back door. A lot of laminate isn't really suitable for a wet environment.
We have Karndean which is certainly passing the test test of time.
A plywood covering is put down on the floor and the Karndean stuck on top.
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Porcelain tiles if you have underfloor heating. Amtico or Karndean are fine but to my eyes they don’t look as good as genuine tiles. Very practical though.
Make sure you have the flooring fitted wall to wall before units are installed. You don’t want to be paying for new flooring in ten years time when your wife wants a new kitchen .
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Be very careful about using laminate in an area where it can get wet, that's a strict no-no. laminate is wood based and doesn't like moisture. LVT may be better. Consult an expert.
I had laminate laid in my hallway. The place was built around 1960. Building regs changed in 1965, requiring a damp proof membrane to be laid under concrete floors. Laminate shouldn't be laid on any floor with an RH of 75% or greater. The fitter didn't measure mine until after the floor showed problems - it was 90%! I'm fighting the case with the CC company under section 75.
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>>laminate / wet
I will be happy to be proven wrong; I am sure that I have seen laminates marked as suitable for bathrooms?
Another money pit problem- the tiles in the bathroom are all cracking because the wooden flooring under it is moving due no doubt to water from the bath / shower splashing over!
Last edited by: zippy on Thu 8 Aug 24 at 20:25
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Someone pointed out that LVT is what I must have seen - I had no idea - looked like laminate to me!
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I don't know all the terminology and I think I've said laminate when I probably mean LVT.
I'm afraid there's no way I am going to fully tile under cabinets right back to the wall, that'd put my costs up 50%. I have no underfloor heating already and the cost of putting it in alongside porcelain tiles will probably send me down a different route.
The Karndean stuff is a likely possibility. I'm really not trying to create a show home, just refresh a slightly tired kitchen which would probably have seen me out. I'm personally starting to wish I'd never begun the task, though SWMBO seems happy with it all. It's looking like maybe 3 weeks of serious disruption at quite some cost!!
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>>The Karndean stuff is a likely possibility.
Brother's wife wanted that in a pre 1965 house. The installer advised against it, but said he would fit it if they signed a disclaimer! After my experience, I'd certainly not consider it anywhere it could get the slightest bit wet.
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Karndean/Amtico/LVT should cope with being wet unless what's under it is dodgy. Laminate won't.
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>>cost...
Someone I work with is paying £50k for a new kitchen!
I am worried because the money pit needs a new kitchen and I would be expecting change from £5k for a nice kitchen - I guess £10k in modern terms but that's probably not enough!
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Depends a bit on size Zippy... but more on consequential work.
Mine is quite a large kitchen - 28 cupboard handles (which is about £500 at Wrens prices, no kidding!!). The actual units and a couple of appliances run to about £10k in round numbers - maybe a bit more. With their fitting it was £17k+ but that is only "dry" fitting, not including attaching to gas/water/elec and not including any other consequent changes (e.g. flooring, lighting).
So their fitters do a pre-survey and discuss additional work you may need, and price it later. This is where the bill starts to mount. I think I already talked about the new consumer unit (£1250 + VAT) which was not optional even though the old one was only 10-ish years old (and admittedly doesn't meet current spec, but is much closer than most in my street). Electric sockets at £100 a throw. Re-connecting washing machine £100. £450 to fit a water softener even though they have free access and the pipework in bits. Reworking the pipework behind the sink even though it's only been in about 4 years. None seemed to be negotiable. So the reasonably pricey kitchen has suddenly become downright expensive.
I'm now at the point of having found an independent installer who also wants to replace everything but the price hasn't varied that much - but I feel less like I'm going to be shafted with even more cost once the job gets underway.
I doubt your £10k would do the trick but you may be lucky.
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I agree. £15,000 will get you a nice kitchen but not a top line one. Depends what you want but use cheap materials and you will be disappointed. If you are planning to stay in the house long term it’s definitely worth doing the best job you can afford. If you come to sell the house a good kitchen will be a major selling point.
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So when I met a kitchen person today and said how I'd been quoted £100 each to connect back my washing machine and tumble dryer after the kitchen is renewed, he said they had to certify it hence the cost. One is a 3 pin plug into socket and a screw-on cold water hose, the other just6 a plug - nothing else.
Really? Has the world gone mad??
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 12 Aug 24 at 19:58
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>> Really? Has the world gone mad??
If its not an appliance with a moulded on plug, and someone professional does it, Yes.
do it yourself.
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Well I'd like to, and I probably will, but if the lecky won't sign it off the whole job if he hasn't done all the bits I'm a bit caught really
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I cant see that plugging in a washing machine's 13A plug and plumbing in the waste has anything to do with the electricians completion report.
Had the washing machine been wired into a fused spur then maybe.
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>> Well I'd like to, and I probably will, but if the lecky won't sign it
>> off the whole job if he hasn't done all the bits I'm a bit caught
>> really
No No No, its very simple. If its not plugged in, it doesent exist. The only thing to sign off is anything changed. So if sockets have been moved but are not being used, they get tested and signed off. If appliances with in tact moulded three pin plugs are involved, its not part of his job, nothing to do with him, not part of the regs, thats why we have the BSI moulded plug standard to meet the IEEE wiring regs. What happens if you decide to change your dishwasher, do you need to need to call the sparks back? of course you dont.
remember if its not plugged in, it dont exist and is not part of his signing off.
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... and here's another thing.... siliconing...
We've had a decorator in to skim the lounge walls and he offered to spray the walls & ceiling rather than me paint it, so I said yes. (Took a lot of quite costly paint and 2 days effort and it is still smelling strongly though only completed yesterday. Job should be a good 'un though)
There is some silicon loose/missing round the windows - not a lot but some - which I assumed he'd do prior to painting.
Apparently siliconing is a trade all of its own these days and he therefore couldn't do it. (Maybe he just didn't want to)
Fact or fiction? :-)
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>> Apparently siliconing is a trade all of its own these days and he therefore couldn't
>> do it. (Maybe he just didn't want to)
>>
>> Fact or fiction? :-)
Kinda, its certainly an acquired skill to do it quickly and tidily. He probably wasnt properly equipped. the filling round the windows (which includes getting out the old stuff) should have been done a week previously. One good side effect is that paint wont gel to fresh silicon, so you dont need to mask it!
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I suspect there's probably a degree course in it at the University of Doncaster or somesuch... :-)
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We're mostly decided now. But we are again looking at a hot water tap.
Currently we have a 3 way tap, which does hot, cold and filtered cold. Kettle is filled from filtered cold. SWMBO says she can't drink regular tap water.
So these 4 way ones, which deliver water at 98 degrees (which everyone says is good enough for tea) seem to me to have a cold filtered, as we have now, but the hot is less filtered - just to remove limescale so the tank doesn't gunge up. Does anyone have one and can verify that?
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For gods sake? how old are you? have you not by now learned the;
"Good Idea dear, I'd love to, alas its technically not possible with out set up"
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Just carry on as you were with a kettle.
The near boiling feed probably works OK with mugs/teabags. Less sure it's hot enough for a proper brew with leaf tea.
Done it that way in my own place for well north of 40 yrs.
Not difficult.
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Yes yes but I am modernising :-)
I think I've talked us out of the hot water thing anyway.
They take filters which aren't that cheap - £30 or thereabouts every 6 months. That was enough to stop me. Doesn't sound much but all these things add up, and I really don't think it would benefit us.
That, and the fact that much of our hot water comes free anyway for about 4 months of the year, one way or another (via solar excess diversion), and we are usually away anyway for at least 3 of the other months at the moment!!
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>> For gods sake? how old are you? have you not by now learned the;
My dragon wants a kitchen upgrade, new tiles, doors and doors fettling, decorating and new carpet in the dining room. Keeps her happy, I don't mind 'cos I've earmarked a few grand for another classic car as my everyday motor. The Jowett is a bit unsuitable for that. She's talking about new handles, for gods sake, there are 26 of them.
I said nowt and kept my powder dry until we were talking to the nice lady at B^Q when I took her to look at replacements. I said new handles would be good but I think the present ones may leave marks on the gloss surfaces where they are fitted. The assistant backed me up and added that it would be extremely hard to get handles to cover any such marks.
Phew ! £75 saved then for same sized ones with the added complication that just one drawer is 30cm and needs a smaller handle.
And what's all this tripe about soft closers, the drawers have them but I never fitted them on the doors...she didn't know they even existed ! Even the pigging toilet seat has a soft closer !
Ted
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I mentioned above that the Wrens handles were nearly £500 of the cost! I should have de-specced them and found some others really but the quote is a shadow of it's former self now anyway :-)
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New kitchen - undercupboard lighting - Bromptonaut
