I would appreciate some comments, please. My boiler has packed up and it is a bit like an old car in that parts and labour are going into it without a fix!
I am told that 15 years is a good "life" for a combi and this one is 17 years old. A couple of years ago the valve inside (Transfer Valve?) failed so when I wanted hot water the boiler tried to run the water and the radiators as well; this wasn't a problem, for me. Last month it got worse; it would light up when required but go out after about a minute and then relight for about a minute and so on. It would heat the radiators but wasn't good for a hot bath or shower!
I have had 3 visits from a local engineer, the transfer valve and the heat exchanger have been replaced as a cost of about £250 plus labour and the next step, based on advice from the maker's tech support dept, is to replace the PCB @ about £100 and confdence is not high that this will fix the problem.
A new boiler will be way more efficient than my current one, although my gas bill is only £200 a year anyway, and I can get one supplied and fitted between £1500 and £2000. I can get a £300 grant to assist me with this cost and I am inclined to go for the new boiler rather than keep throwing money, may be to no good effect, at a 17 year old one which was fine when it used to work but now doesn't. A new boiler isn't going to reduce my fuel costs much but it will work properly, have a warranty and might last longer than me!
Members thoughts and comments most welcome. Thanks.
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I used to look at a Newsgroup where this sort of thing was discussed, and successful fixes suggested. The parts are much cheaper bought direct. Try a trawl via Goggle or something.
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We had to make a similar decision three winters ago, PP, and a circuit board was the critical part in our case. We'd been nursing our old combi along with the help of a British Gas maintenance plan but we got a warning - which we verified with an independent source - that parts were becoming hard to find. Rather than risk an emergency and an unrepairable boiler in the dead of winter, we took the decision to install a new one.
British Gas tried to sell us theirs, of course, but we got some other quotations too, and chose one from an established local fitter for a Johnson and Starley condensing combi. British Gas lost a lot of points when we challenged them on price by trying to rubbish their competitor's product - and not budging much on price either, and we were very pleased with the other firm and the work they did.
A bonus of the new boiler was a whizzy wireless thermostat/programmer, which you can fix to the wall in a sensible place (i.e. the sitting room, not the hall) and set more combinations of on and off times than you could possibly need. It worked very well - probably still does but we sold that house in June and we're considering a similar system for our new one.
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Its like aving an old car effendi, you've forked out some wedge already. so do you call it a day or try another ton on a 25-1 outsider who has always run on the flat before,
You don't say what make of broiler it is, some are better than others, like cars,
There comes a time with old cars/broilers when its better to throw in the towel,
your enginner is best placed to decide on that score.
Last edited by: Dog on Fri 8 Oct 10 at 10:18
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PP you are right to say that's a decent innings for a combi boiler. At the time yours was new we fitted a used cast iron conventional boiler for £50 on the advice of the fitter who said the combis were often giving trouble within 3-5yrs never mind 15+yrs.
I fear you may be chasing expenditire from now on with the one you have. Yes there is some good advice on the net but it will be a somewhat random repair approach that could waste money.
Frankly I'd replace it. £1500 is an absolute max you ought to pay for a straight replacement in same position with no system changes. The boiler will cost the guy about £600 and the change can be done by one man in a day. I don't think any more than £900/day labour is reasonable!
BTW last thought. The symptoms you describe can be those associated with the boiler being unable to dissipate its heat to the system water so it cycles. This can be down to a sludged system or failing pump etc. I assume your guy has thought of these basics and not just fixated on the boiler itself??
Like car reapirs the outcome and cost can have a great deal to do with the way the repairers mind works through his diagnosis.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Fri 8 Oct 10 at 10:29
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VERY many thanks for the contructive and insightful comments! I am inclining towards replacement but it involves extra work and the existing boiler's flue system won't link up and some small header tank will have to be taken out of the loft. If the engineer thought the heat exchanger was sludged up causing flow problems and changed it, to no apparent effect, it seems that Fenlander's suggestion that there is sludge elsewhere in the system pipes and its 7 radiators and a flush thru might cure it. I shall see what the engineer thinks when he rings to quote for the circuit board.
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PP, sorry to hear about your woes, at least it hasn't happened in the depths of winter. www.sedbuk.com/ might be useful if you decide to get a new boiler.
John
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I agree the price quoted of £1,500 and more for a replacement looks high.
This Glow Worm boiler is £460:
www.bhl.co.uk/product/GLOWWORM_BETACOM_24C_HE_COMBI_NG_EX_FLUE
The guy I use for such matters quoted up to a day for labour when I asked about a new boiler a couple of years ago.
Even if this Glow Worm needs a fitting kit or a flue, I'd have thought the whole job should come in at well under £1,000.
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Well spotted iffy! £1500 was the supply price quoted by the maker plus £80 for a new flue. I have found the same boiler from a reputable supplier at £800, plus the flue plus fitting - not too much over £1200 fitted I am hoping. Better then throwing money at the old one andalso a £300 voucher from the Government for being old to help reduce the pain!
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Interesting to see Johnson & Starley mentioned. Our previous house had an early seventies gas warm air system of theirs. Made several trips over to Brackmills for parts (timer & several vent/registers). Always very helpful.
The warm air thingy was remarkably efficient one double glazing cured the thermal leak through windows. Could go away for a few days leaving it completely off then come in, turn on and go - 40 to 60 faster than some cars can manage!!!
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Unless you know he's changed it already do gently mention pump/valve reduced flow issues as well as system sludge.
Avoid the very cheapest brand boilers... worth paying for a main brand like Vaillant/Worcester/Glow-worm. Also I'd get one with a stainless steel heat exchanger if possible... usually about £60 above the standard model.
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At your rate of usage it will take 20 years for payback and modern boilers are much less reliable than old ones! Typical trouble free lifespan seems to be about 8 years which is diabolical.
My boiler is about 13 years old. Diverter valve was replaced. It was tripping the reset when the hot water was used when the heating was on. Plumber and WB engineer failed to fix it. I worked out that if I just made sure the heating was off and the pressure was above 1 bar it wouldn't do it. Not done it in nearly 2 years now! Only really did it when you ran a bath so it is no bother to pop into the cupboard to turn off the heating turn it on again when the bath has filled. Doesn't do it from any other hot water outlet.
I'd get it fixed. It will be much cheaper.
The old fashioned gas back boilers are good for 40 years so 17 is pants!
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TB 17 years is pants but it is what I have got! Is mine a "back Boiler?" It is wall mounted and not a condensing type.
The problem is that the maker's technical department advised that replacing the PCB wasn't likely to achieve much, it either works or it doesn't and isn't likely to cause the boiler to cycle on and off the way it is at the moment. I am inclined to the sludge in the system aspect referred to by Fenlander. I shall enquire about the cost of a full system flush. Thanks for your thoughts.
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Fri 8 Oct 10 at 13:48
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If fitting a new boiler you will need a full system flush anyway - so that the manufacturer's guarantee still applies.
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We're still none the wiser as to what make the blimmin thing is.
:)
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I wasn't sure that it was relevant - it is a 17 year old box of poo called an Alpha 240 Eco. You are now none the wiser but much better informed -:)
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If the water's not flowing, wouldn't it cycle on and off as described?
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It is flowing but not fast enough to prevent cycling, changing the heat exchanger (£145) improved the rate of flow to the extent that I could run a useable bath and reduced the rate of cycling. Hence fenlander's suggestion that, if clearing the exchanger produced a benefit, perhaps a flush of the pipes and 7 radiators might be even better.
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If it is cutting out on full tilt with the hot water then it can also suggest insufficient mains pressure being the problem. If you can alter the water temperature setting then try lowering it as then it will be happier with a slower flow. I usually find there is a happy medium which matches the amount of water needed to heat and the heat loss and it varies slightly throughout the year. If you turn the boiler down too low it can cycle, ditto if it is too high so it can be a bit of a game finding the happy medium.
I had an alpha. I binned at 4 years old as it had broken down so much! 17 years is impressive :)
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Well the presuure in the system is correct ie Green on the gauge when cold. I have been investigating a replacement and they all come between £700 and £800 except a glow worm under £500. I may spend a little extra to get a Worcester Bosch.However I am getting to a morbid age where I don't buy annual magazine subs in case I don't get full value! A good boiler may well outlive me! I will try the hot tap water at a lower temperature and see if that helps
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>> However I am getting to a morbid age where I don't buy annual magazine subs
>> in case I don't get full value! A good boiler may well outlive me!
I'll read one out for you then!
According to Which magazine (Sep 2010 issue) the best for reliability is as follows:
Best Reliability - Vaillant, Worcester
Average Reliability - Alpha, British Gas, Glow-worm, Potterton
Poor Reliability - Baxi, Ideal
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>>You are now none the wiser but much better informed -:)<<
I just wondered if it was an arf decent one like a glow worm or worc/bosch etc.,
My 23 year old glow worm hide-away is still going strong :)
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>>>just wondered if it was an arf decent one like a glow worm or worc/bosch etc<<<
You will not find many good words about worc/bosch on some plumbing forums (sp ? fora?). My experience was good but maybe quality can vary over time?
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>>You will not find many good words about worc/bosch on some plumbing forums<<
Par for the course these days it seems, nothing seems to be built like it was in 'the olde days'.
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Par for the course these days it seems, nothing seems to be built like it was in 'the olde days'.
Which is why I am sticking to my 22 yr old Potterton (non combi) for as long as possible!
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>>Which is why I am sticking to my 22 yr old Potterton (non combi) for as long as possible!<<
Same here with my glow worm, I had it serviced just after the last ice age and he said to keep it as the combi's/condensing jobbies don't seem to last that long,
anyway - I've found a way to make my boiler more efficient - don't use it so much :-)
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>>You will not find many good words about worc/bosch on some plumbing forums.
The plumbing/heating lot are the worse of any forums... if you took notice of them you'd never buy any make of boiler.
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I have a Worcester combi in the caravan, neat little box which runs the hot water and five radiators easily enough.
There's a fairly old Ferroli combi in Iffy Towers.
My boiler man told me it was good enough in its day, and he confirmed a new condensing combi might not be as reliable and would certainly not last as well.
Perky is in a dilemma, an unreliable boiler with winter approaching is no good to anyone, but having to replace it with something which is lower quality is frustrating.
On balance, I'd go for new.
I think the £300 grant just about swings it.
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Thanks Dog - no I hadn't seen that! I shall draw my man's attention to it PDQ. As a penguin I can't get too interested in keeping warm!!!!
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Fri 8 Oct 10 at 18:02
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>>>According to Which magazine (Sep 2010 issue) the best for reliability is as follows:
Best Reliability - Vaillant, Worcester
Average Reliability - Alpha, British Gas, Glow-worm, Potterton
Poor Reliability - Baxi, Ideal
They've got that spot on... and you can add all the no-names after Baxi and Ideal.
Knowing that info from contacts my choice was a better spec Glow-worm with a stainless heat exchanger. My local man trusted for 20+yrs was happy to supply and stand by the Glow-worm quality.
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>>They've got that spot on... and you can add all the no-names after Baxi and Ideal.
I must write to Which and tell them about my 34 year old, virtually trouble-free, Ideal Standard.
PP. If it was me, Sir, I'd cut my losses, take the £300 grant, and start again.
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I had a voucher from the Govt when they were doing boiler scrappage. Could have replaced my 20 year old boiler which (touch wood) has no probs with a new combi. IIRC the net cost was around £1200 - £1500.
On the basis that there appears to be a widely held belief that the current style of boilers (condensing) will require replacement after around 10 years, and like the OP my gas bills aren't that big, I decide to stay with what I've got, and replace it when essential.
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I decide to stay with what I've got, and
>> replace it when essential.
>>
Agreed, we thought our Vaillant combi was on it's last legs about 5 years ago but it's still going strong...found a proper plumber now who isn't 'pushing' (unlike the big name we've now left) the need to replace it with a super nukem 115% efficient jobbie, has a huge mark up no doubt.
Following advice given to me before in another place it will be replaced by another Vaill or a Worc/Bosch when it's dead.
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My man is going to ring me back next week with a price for a PCB. I think I shall tell him that, for what I know, it isn't a PCB fault and if he wants to fit it I shan't pay for it unless it effects a cure. I think it is a circulation/overheating problem and as I can now heat the house and run a bath I may pay him off for what he done so far and think about it.
Thanks to other people's helpful input, including the Which reliability list. I think I shall get a new Vaillant, claim the Government grant and do it all before the VAT goes up which is January 20th?
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At last, some useful input from me for you gentlemen. I wish I had known this 2 weeks ago. British Gas run a one off repair scheme which, in my area, would cost me £168 for a repair including ALL parts and labour, no call out charge and a year's guarantee on the work. I have spent twice that already and got not very far!
www.britishgas.co.uk/products-and-services/maintenance-and-repair/one-off-boiler-repair.html?ai_link=a3
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...would cost me £168 for a repair including ALL parts and labour, no call out charge and a year's guarantee on the work...
Looks like a genuinely good offer.
Out of interest, I put a Mayfair post code into the checker - £210.
My cheapo northern post code came out at £168.
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Thanks for that Porky, it might come in handy for my old broiler, especially as 'they' say we're in for another ice age this winter,
Re: your man and the PCB, if say I fitted a new carb or distributor to a car when I was in the mobile tuning game, if it didn't effect a cure I wouldn't expect the punter to cough up, so it'll be interesting to see what he comes up with.
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I am happy to be able to put some info into this debate rather than asking for it! I am in the £168 area and I will report when my £300 so far and not fixed man gets back to me, which may be Monday
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This may come in handy for some ~
www.boilerguide.co.uk/
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Being off the beaten track down here in Harleyland, we're on oil-fired CH, and we have a Worcester Heatslave doing the work. Fitted about six years ago, and regularly serviced; had a problem a couple of months ago with the transfer valve, radiators warming up even when not switched on.
Our tame boiler engineer (who has excellent taste as he owns a Dodge Viper!) tells me that Worcesters are prone to this; they now do a repair kit to eliminate the need to change the valve completely. Cost me £160 for the fitting and labour, that included the original visit to diagnose the problem.
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Harleyman - my temporary answer to the transfer valve problem, and in the Summer only, was to switch the radiators off using the taps/valves on each radiator rather than relying on the boiler 2 way selector which wasn't effective because of the transfer valve failure.
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It works to an extent; but as you're probably aware the hot water's still running round every pipe it can find a way through, and of course it does nothing for your gas/oil bill!
Worth noting though that if you do have a Worcester boiler and you end up with an engineer who says it has to be a new valve (about £250) you can ask about the repair kit.
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>> Being off the beaten track down here in Harleyland, we're on oil-fired CH, and we
>> have a Worcester Heatslave doing the work.
Worcester Heatslave. Love the name. In Tudor times they used to have a couple of poor sods turning the meat spit in front of a huge fire in Henry VIII's abode until it was done. Perhaps thats what they called them :-)
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In Tudor times they used to have a couple of
>> poor sods turning the meat spit in front of a huge fire in Henry VIII's
>> abode until it was done. Perhaps thats what they called them :-)
>>
>>
Mrs. H, who worked for years in catering, tells me that they have the same thing today but they're simply known as "Gordon Ramsey's assistants".
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We have a 30 year old boiler. I maintain it myself. Cost of a new super duper system..c £4k. Time to repay capital investement on gas savings approx 20 years..
Waste of money..
Wots a pCB? Ours has none..
(I do know what one is)
PS: apologies for typos. Birthday vino.
Last edited by: madf on Sat 9 Oct 10 at 19:07
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Happy birthday madf.
One year closer to winter heating allowance?
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Cold Comfort - that allowance may have gone by time he reaches 60
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I heard on the news this morning that winter heating allowance may be means tested, in which case I shall lose it. I have no problem with that but wil they withdraw it from British OAPs who live in Spain and get it paid to them there? GRRRRR!
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Same with the cold weather payments Porky, the only ice some of them experience, is in their Sangria.
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...British OAPs who live in Spain and get it paid to them there?...
Quite a few seem to return home when they discover healthcare arrangements over there are not a patch on what we have here.
So they decline to contribute to the economic life of our country for 20 or 30 years of retirement, and return only to be a burden on the rest of us.
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>> Quite a few seem to return home when they discover healthcare arrangements over there are
>> not a patch on what we have here.
>>
>> So they decline to contribute to the economic life of our country for 20 or
>> 30 years of retirement, and return only to be a burden on the rest of
>> us.
I suppose they think they've paid their dues when they were working. Trouble is the retired will soon outnumber the current working population, then will the healthcare arrangements in this country be kept to the same standard?
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I've paid taxes and NI in this county for 53 years so if I go and live abroad I should get a rebate as I leave! (No - not really!) Most ex-pats probably have some UK sourced income on which they pay tax unless there is some dual-taxation agreement between UK and the country where they are living. Almost any country in Western Europe has better medical services than we do.
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Sun 10 Oct 10 at 14:29
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You'd think the govt would be glad that many reaching retirement age choose to leave, frees up a house to put a worthwhile net taxpayer in, well in a politician's fantasy world anyway..;)
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...Almost any country in Western Europe has better medical services than we do...
PP,
I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I'm fairly sure medical services for foreigners in Spain and other European countries are not good.
I've heard of several pensioners who have returned to the UK for that reason.
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foreigners in
>> Spain and other European countries are not good.
Do other EU countries differentiate between their own citizens and other members of the EU?
I'd have thought that was disallowed under various directives.
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SFAIK the medical services offered in Europe, to residents of other EU countries are exactly the same as offered to resident citizens - differentaion is not legal. I get relatively cheap travel insurance as I carry an EHIC card and insure myself against the eventualities which are not covered by it Most people I know who live abroad in France, Cyprus and Spain speak highly of the treatment available but this is all subjective, opinion only and there must be variations. In Germany at least, you do not have to go a GP (I don't know if they even have them). You just go direct to a doctor who specialises in your medical problem which sames time and effort
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Corax, "the retired will soon outnumber the current working population" you may be right but a recent, surprisingly intelligent, article and analysis of UK population was wringing its hands because (and I'm quoting the numbers from memory so they'll be a bit off) in 20/25 years time there will be x million people over the age of (sorry, forgotten what it was, but it was in excess of 65) whereas there will be 2x under 18.
The conclusion was, who is going to look after and pay for the keep of old these old folk?
The point that struck me was that the numbers showed the population doubling as these under 18s grow up and nobody batted an eyelid.
John
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>> Happy birthday madf.
>>
>> One year closer to winter heating allowance?
>>
Thanks
Tom
But I'm old enough already!
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Anyone who thinks the aged in the UK enjoy the same healthcare - in terms of hospital care - are ill informed. There is a deliberate and long standing bais against the aged taking up scarce hospital resources needed for operations..
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/tracycorrigan/2791409/It-isnt-the-law-that-has-failed-the-elderly.html
Last edited by: madf on Sun 10 Oct 10 at 16:29
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>> Anyone who thinks the aged in the UK enjoy the same healthcare - in terms
>> of hospital care - are ill informed. There is a deliberate and long standing bais
>> against the aged taking up scarce hospital resources needed for operations..
I watched a programme a while back about people over 100, and most of them really did not want to be around anymore. I remember one of them saying 'It's one thing being old, but when you are really old it's something else entirely. All my friends have died, I don't belong here, I'm just waiting really'.
It's a difficult situation, because people now survive much longer due to better health services, but in effect it will cause problems in the future as the older population rises and there aren't enough 'workers' to pay for their pensions and healthcare.
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Come to think of it nor does my 20 ish year old Worcester. Worth sticking to, unless / until the price of oil goes through the roof.
Given the woes with combi and condensing boilers how would anyone rate the reliability on one of these beasts;
tinyurl.com/2bb5s88
or one of these;
tinyurl.com/2baht5v
:-)
John
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The probelem, today, is that it is illegal to supply anything other than a condensing boiler, SFAIK. This certanly true for a gas boiler
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I actually wanted a chp combi boiler. When i looked into it last time they only had tank based ones which I thought was dumb. Hopefully someone decent will do one ie not baxi!
In two minds whether to go for that or whether to go for ground source heating. Ideally some sort of combined system would be useful where you could have gas hot water, chp and the ground source for background level heating and cooling.
I'm also tempted to rent out my roof for solar as I'm at home during daylight hours so I'd get the benefit of it. The efficiency of panels is a bit poor though. Something like less than 20% in most cases.
Don't believe a word of this climate change cobblers but being more self sufficient in electricty seems wise. There's also a neat space down the side of the house where a gas generator would fit in case of power cuts.... pity they're so expensive. Dread to think what the gas bill would be after a few power cuts in the depths of winter....
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where
>> a gas generator would fit in case of power cuts.... pity they're so expensive. Dread
>> to think what the gas bill would be after a few power cuts in the
>> depths of winter....
>>
I first lived in west Wales in the early 90's, and winter power cuts were a common nuisance. With this in mind, when i moved back here in 2003 I bought a 2.8kv petrol genny at a show, thinking it would keep the freezer going and a light or two on in case of emergency.
I've used it twice; one of those was when we were having the house re-wired and the mains was off, the other I needed it for about an hour during a power cut when the local sub-station copped a lightning strike.
Would the solar panels suffice for the freezer?
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sun 10 Oct 10 at 22:55
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I've had several power cuts over the years. The last house was the worst as either there were trees flapping into the power lines or local knuckle draggers were throwing things into the substation. Would have 3 or 4 a year, often over an hour. Freezer shouldn't be a problem as they're generally well insulated.
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Combi Boiler Woes - FotheringtonTomas
