The rights and wrongs of the Gaza situation aside - a horrible mess.
The UK's RAF, France, Jordan and the USA have pulled a blinder in stopping a number of drones whilst Iron Dome got the ballistic missiles and other drones.
Whilst helping Israel, the "coalitions" actions have really prevented a bigger war should Israel have been badly hit and retaliated hard.
Iron Dome looks like Sci-Fi - seeing the explosions near space and the ring of debris forming.
Do we have anything similar?
|
>>Do we have anything similar?
The channel, that's always stopped everything before. Oh! wait a moment.
|
I think it's more than a shame how it has taken eyes off the Ukraine situation, which is much closer to home and potentially more impacting on us (isn't it?)
Despite Hamas being an objectionable bunch I still don't like what I read the Israelis are doing in response, as there are thousands of (presumably) innocent people getting caught up in it.
|
"Despite Hamas being an objectionable bunch I still don't like what I read the Israelis are doing in response, as there are thousands of (presumably) innocent people getting caught up in it."
Indeed. Much though I sympathise with Israel and detest Hamas (and I have friends whose families were caught up in the Hamas attack last October), I feel the former is in danger of losing the moral high ground - in fact, has probably lost it.
When it comes to the Iran attack on Israel, the sheer scale of it should be a warning to everyone of the military capability of what is a rogue state. Unfortunately it has now masked the actions of the IDF in Gaza, as Israel once again appears a victim.
|
>> I think it's more than a shame how it has taken eyes off the Ukraine
>> situation, which is much closer to home and potentially more impacting on us (isn't it?)
>>
It has, but I think a war in the Middle East has more chance of getting out of control and being a serious issue for all of us.
>> Despite Hamas being an objectionable bunch I still don't like what I read the Israelis
>> are doing in response, as there are thousands of (presumably) innocent people getting caught up in it.
>>
It's sickening. There is no doubt in my mind that the IDF have gone too far / are too brutal.
|
>> It's sickening. There is no doubt in my mind that the IDF have gone too
>> far / are too brutal.
As far as the IDF are concerned it's not just Gaza. Many reports say they're involved in evicting Palestinians for land on the West Bank so as to allow it to be seized for Jewish Settlements.
|
Events in Gaza do no-one any credit - Israel needed to respond to Hamas brutality on 7th October, but a longer term strategy still seems absent. Result to date - homes, jobs and infrastructure reduced to rubble, widespread hunger, disease, etc with no end in sight.
The likely effect will be to alienate an entire generation of those impacted by the conflict who will blame Israel for their predicament. Eliminating Hamas will not solve the problem - the name may disappear to be replaced by an equally unpleasant group.
The long term goal must be for Israel and the region to enjoy stable and ideally harmonious relationships with its neighbours, all of whom would recognise agreed national boundaries.
Some progress has been made with Egypt, Jordan and more recently Saudi, but the broader initiatives stalled 2 or 3 decades ago. All need to take responsibility for the deficiency - UN, USA, Europe, Arab nations and Israel.
The real motives for Israel's continued operations is unclear. As a response to 7/10 it is now disproportionate. It has directly alienated millions, and damaged international support. They will be very aware of the possible consequences.
Perhaps the goal is to force engagement of the international community to identify and support a workable solution - a renewed positive response to replace the spectre of repeated conflict every 5-15 years. A ceasefire will simply consign the problem to the back burner again.
This could include the UN or US or other Arab states to make a Palestinian state a reality, or at least take over political leadership in Gaza and the West Bank.
|
Events of 7/10 have really played into Israel’s hands and Netanyahu.
Very strange that one of the most heavily defended countries could have been attacked in such a way.
|
>> Events of 7/10 have really played into Israel’s hands and Netanyahu.
It would have done if Netanyahu hadn't gone full Tonto in the aftermath.
|
He has gone full Tonto and still got the unequivocal support of UK and US.
And then when it was showing signs of wavering, they attacked Iran to provoke them and get all the support from UK and US.
The guy is playing a blinder.
|
>> The guy is playing a blinder.
>>
He has adopted a very high risk strategy in my view.
Israel has the right to respond to defeat Hamas whose intent is their destruction. That they choose to hide behind vulnerable civilians makes non-combatant deaths inevitable.
Hamas will fight to the end - surrender is a non-option - like expecting turkeys to vote for Xmas.
At some point the humanitarian damage will lose Israel the support of the US, UK etc. If this happens before Hamas are defeated Israel will be left very vulnerable. They only need to lose one war - the Palestinians with Arab support could lose ten and still fight an 11th.
The Netanyahu strategy does not have wholehearted support in Israel. Continuing the conflict with no clear path following military success is a major risk. I wouldn't want to play him at poker!!
|
A lot of the reason for where we are now is Netanyahu , he is as batsheet crazy and crooked as Trump.
He does not have a mandate to be PM, and is only in power by cobbling together and bowing down to a rabid collection of religious extremists and land grabbing crooks.
The current political system in Israel makes the electoral system in Iran look benign.
|
>> Events of 7/10 have really played into Israel’s hands and Netanyahu.
>>
>> Very strange that one of the most heavily defended countries could have been attacked in
>> such a way.
>>
>>
I don't think it's strange, they can't stop every attack. But they (and allies) can shoot down the drones and missiles as they come in.
|
The missile attack was a carefully crafted response to the Israeli strike. Iran had to do something, they made it look spectacular for home audience consumption, yet telegraphed its timing and routes to allow the defenders max chance to intercept it, then announce there would be no more and that was the end of it. To anyone sane and sensible it would be seen as what it was, Israel had a victory in defence, it should all end at that point.
Alas batsheet NuttyYahoo wont see it.
|
>>I don't think it's strange, they can't stop every attack. But they (and allies) can
>> shoot down the drones and missiles as they come in.
I think Bobby's point is about why the IDF etc were not on the case far more quickly on 07/10 itself. Not saying I buy the conspiracy theory expressed by Labour's dumped man at Rochdale, I don't, but it's a legitimate enquiry.
|
I think Bobby's point is about why the IDF etc were not on the case
>> far more quickly on 07/10 itself. Not saying I buy the conspiracy theory expressed by
>> Labour's dumped man at Rochdale, I don't, but it's a legitimate enquiry.
I'm not quite sure I'm following the thinking.
The IDF were quick to knock out the drones/missiles but not on 7th Oct? Is that the general point?
|
>> The IDF were quick to knock out the drones/missiles but not on 7th Oct? Is
>> that the general point?
The point I'm seeing is that the Gaza/Israel border is one of the most secure - in terms of gerring across - anywhere on earth. It's highly militarised on the Israel side by one of the most efficient armies in the world. They're supported by very effective intelligence.
Yet when the 07/10 incursion started they seem to have been very slow to get on site.
Not for a minute suggesting it was a conspiracy to give them an excuse to go in hard but I'd like know what the subsequent inquiry finds.
|
From what I read, they had plenty of warnings that were ignored, mostly by complacency. Add to that the fact that lack of control by government over "settlers" meant they had moved in nearer to the border, made them tempting targets. All of which made Nuttyyahoo look bad, which iOS one of the reasons he is now acting like he is.
The world is a dangerous place right now. Of the 6 powers with a finger on the nuclear trigger, 4 of them are currently governed by loons/warlords/senile ole farts. Take your pick.
|
I count it eight:
US, Russia, China, UK, France, Israel, Pakistan, India.
8o(
|
|
forgot the last two loons, but its doubtfull they work anyway.
|
The point I'm seeing is that the Gaza/Israel border is one of the most secure
>> - in terms of gerring across - anywhere on earth. It's highly militarised on the
>> Israel side by one of the most efficient armies in the world. They're supported by
>> very effective intelligence.
I wouldn't rate them that highly. They are full of humans that make mistakes. They've the best military in the ME but the bar isn't very high.
That's part of the line, big up Israel is some sort of super power, all knowing and all powerful. Look them as a competent but an organisation that's capable of making mistakes it doesn't look so impossible.
>> Yet when the 07/10 incursion started they seem to have been very slow to get
>> on site.
>>
>> Not for a minute suggesting it was a conspiracy to give them an excuse to
>> go in hard but I'd like know what the subsequent inquiry finds.
>>
Same as usual, compliancy and group think.
|
>They are full of humans that make mistakes.
The family of an IDF Intelligence squaddie in charge of a lookout post on the border raised a fuss in the press a few days after the attack. They said that she had sent numerous warnings to her superiors that something unusual was in the offing. The casual observers who regularly walked up and down the fence on the Gaza side had disappeared and the lookouts had seen and filmed groups of riders on motorcycles approaching the fence along a cleared pathway as if riding through the fence.
She was ignored and the lookout post was one of the first targets to be attacked. The squaddie and two others on duty were killed.
|
|
Sounds about right, warning signs before attacks are sometimes ignored for many reasons. They aren't the first and won't be the last.
|
|
Message left is that if Israel want to they can put a missile down the Supreme Leader's chimney....
|
>> Message left is that if Israel want to they can put a missile down the
>> Supreme Leader's chimney....
>>
Bit like the Ruskies after the first Gulf war when they saw the American bombers put laser guided bombs in air-vents in hangers.
|
|
The major airlines are now diverting around Iran and most of Afghanistan, at the cost of about an hour's flight time between London and SE Asia.
|
The Middle East / Israel / Iran - bathtub tom
