Finally got round to buying one and somebody said on here the instructions were wrong with regard to the ignition timing. What do I need to do make sure the timing is correct?
Going to make a start on this in the evening.
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For which car, Rattle? Ignition timing has been ECU controlled, and non-adjustable on most cars for about the last 20 years.
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Just make sure that the No1 plug fires at TDC (Both valves shut) on No1 cylinder. I found it easier to do this before fitting the plugs although you can see them when fitted. Then do the same for the other three cylinders. the "HT" leads should come out of the distibutor in the "7 o'clock" position.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 7 Oct 10 at 15:20
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Yep but £19.99 from Argos + 30p or so petrol :)
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hope you are going to run this one in properly so freddy the spider can watch it from his web on the light fitting above your head
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He hasn't run his car in yet, that thing has no chance. :)
Last edited by: Old Navy on Thu 7 Oct 10 at 15:55
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Its on 1111 now, its catching up :).
Did 30 miles in yesterday which was a record though got lost as I refused to listen to the sat nav, I knew better, ended up in a country lane some where round the back of Manchester Airport.
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Why don't you fit the Haynes engine in the Panda, Rattle?
It would probably develop more power than the puny little thing you already have. Might knock your insurance up a bit though ;-)
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up in a country lane some where round the back of Manchester Airport.
Funnily enough so did I through an old fashioned map related foul up...! Not mentioning any names just follow my eyes.
Back on topic though - is this engine useful despite not being fuel injected black box, surely the basic principle is important for anyone with an interest in engines.
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Thats the idea, I know how engines work and I know the principle behind ignition timing etc but when hopefully after I have built this I will have a better idea about exactly what is going on.
I must buy an A-Z of Manchester, I need a full size one, I hate the stupidly small pocket ones, too much of the city is missing.
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All you need to do rattle is get a recently killed chicken, pluck it and then draw it, all on to a neatly laid out piece of newspaper.
What you have will bear a remarkable resemblance to the workings of an engine.
From the top, you will have cut of the head and neck which would be the petrol tank
You will then find the lungs which of course are the carburettor mixing air and fuel.
There is the heart within the ribcage which surely has to be the pistons encased in the block, The kidneys are the water pump and cooling system and the liver has to be the CAT. Further along you will find the intestine, which leads to the bowel and of course the Ducks backside. This is the manifold, downpipe and silencers.
Of course there are the ‘lights, which speak for themselves!
And when you’ve finished your basic car mechanics introductory lesson, you can pop it in the oven and roast it, which would be that great crematorium in the sky for cars!
Easy:)
Pat
Last edited by: Webmaster on Sun 10 Oct 10 at 17:14
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Ahh.... it's you who has been the college tutor for the Peterborough motor apprentice scheme.
I was going to say Rattle if only I'd known you wanted a model engine. I've just had trouble seeing away a dismantled, cleaned and painted Land Rover diesel engine for a tenner!
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And you've obviously drawn a few chickens and rabbits Fenlander:)
Pat
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>>All you need to do rattle is get a recently killed chicken...........Further along you will find the intestine, which leads to the bowel and of course the Ducks backside.
One of Frankenstein's fowls I presume. ;>)
Last edited by: Webmaster on Sun 10 Oct 10 at 17:16
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>> Its on 1111 now, its catching up :).
>>
Our cars are of a similar age, Rattle, mine is not far short of 9,000 miles and I am off way south of your patch soon, Another 1,000 mile trip in less than a week. No point buying a car and using it as an ornament.
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It does get used a lot though when I use it, its just I don't have a need to use it everyday.
I suspect I will be doing another 30 tomorrow. It will be used and more and more at the moment I am just venturing to new places on a more local basis before going further and further.
I might have a 150 mile round trip journey to Wales in a couple of weeks time, not sure if that is still going ahead though.
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not sure if that is still going ahead though.
Got your Visas yet ?
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Well it was planned that I would go some where then I become a proper driver but the my mate and his nag have swanned of to London this weekend so I doubt they will have the money.
Its not worth going when the weather changes.
I just thought the Conwy area would be perfect as its easy to get to and is worth it when you get there.
I will certainly be taking the Panda to Anglesey next year but for the first time ever I will have to lay of the booze a bit. No more drinking ten pints in the Glanrafon and it will be strictly a hotel not a tent.
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Ten pints? How can anyone drink ten pints on the same date? I can remember my father in law claiming to have done so in his younger days but I know at any age I would simply explode if I tried to consume that volume of any liquid whether alcohol or not. Now ten whiskys is an altogether different thing...
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I would ignore the immature remarks made by others Frazzle,
just remove the cylinder head at night to guard against pilferage.
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Rattle,
"I knew better, ended up in a country lane some where round the back of Manchester Airport."
You do know that your Panda is now on a terrorist watchlist. Just wait for your front door to be broken down at 4am one day !
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Edinburgh airport is surrounded by anpr cameras, even the plane spotters and emergency access lanes. I would move house and sell the car quick, Ratts.
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In the Haynes manual it usually says "reassembly is the reverse of disassembly" (or words to that effect)
How are you supposed to assemble this if you haven't disassembled it first?
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 7 Oct 10 at 21:47
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Keep a spare container for all the bits that aren't necessary like all good home mechanics do. There are usually two cars hidden inside the one on the drive :)
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Probably spent two hours in between working on it now. I have got the crankshaft connected to the pistons and the conrods, all in the lower crank case. It works a treat, just spent the last 45 minutes some how assemblying the cylinder head. I couldn't find two parts where the valve rests on and I find the instructions a little bit too wordy, the start the obvious a bit too much which then confuses me.
It would have 100 words describing something when it can only go one way anyway.
I am finding it easy but I am taking my time on it as I want to get it right first time. Argos sell it as a mens gift, where the packaging suggests 10+. I would say a ten year old would really struggle without help as they probably would not have the patience or concentration required.
The most important thing is its jolly good fun :).
It reminds me about ten years ago before I discovered boozing the internet wasn't much good, I would spend all my spare time building silly electrical circuits using breadboards.
I really should make things more often, it feels like I am getting something back from my later childhood years.
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"boozing the internet wasn't much good"
No, the real thing is so much better :-)
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>> Keep a spare container for all the bits that aren't necessary like all good home mechanics do.
A friend used to call them "weeeee" bits. Reason being, he'd throw any spare washers, nuts, shims, etc over his shoulder whilst at the same time shouting weeeee.
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Hopefully as I fit the cylinder head to the rest of the block what you have just said about TDC will make a lot more sense. The TDC is the one thing that has always confused about engine timing.
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Rattle I understand there is a known issue that the cam timing is out if built as instructed... obviously running the risk of valve/piston contact and big bills to resolve.
Haynes have refused to issue a recall but advice how to get it right is on the net.
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>>>The TDC is the one thing that has always confused about engine timing.<<<
This must be the easiest concept to understand! Let us know how you cope with the best of the building project!
I would be interested to find the youngest person who has successfully built one of these. If the instructions are similar to any of the current 'the book of lies' range from Haynes , I would suggest that it is an advantage to not be able to read :)
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Once you have ccracked the TDC issue you will able to change the cambelt of your new car.
tinyurl.com/fiatcambelt
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I have got a bit stuck now, the instructions of how to construct the cams on the camshaft are not that clear. I think I have got it right but I won't know until I fit and try and turn it to see if the valves and close in the correct order.
I have a few jobs now so I will have a go at it a bit later on.
As for my car the cambelt is actually quite an easy job on the FIRE engine but then even main dealer prices are quite low for that job (£150) so its not really worth risking myself. Maybe if I keep the car for ten years I may risk it :p.
Last edited by: RattleandSmoke on Fri 8 Oct 10 at 11:04
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>> I have got a bit stuck now, the instructions of how to construct the cams
>> on the camshaft are not that clear.
Leave a few lobes off, break the camshaft in two and call it a Corsa. ;-)
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...Leave a few lobes off, break the camshaft in two and call it a Corsa...
Glue it together with Araldite and call it a repaired Corsa.
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Instead of that plastic engine what you should have got yourself was this www.engineweb.co.uk/listerd1929.htm
Mine was £40.00 and it's as basic as it gets but great fun when you start to re build it and start to get it to run.
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I have a problem I am at the bit where I need to attach the motor to the flywheel but it says to check the flat part of the camshaft is point upwards when piston 1 is TDC however its not :( It its about 20 degrees out.
I suspect it might be that the crankshaft pulley dosn't fit like it should, there is too much play and it may have moved when I used the timing locking tool. Either that or I have fitted the camshaft completely wrong.
Either way I have a lot of dismantling to do :(
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I guess you thought I was joking in my previous post. There is a problem with valve timing on these engines and there is info on the net for a mod... think it involves breaking off some lugs and repositioning something. Have a search and you'll find it.
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>> I guess you thought I was joking in my previous post. There is a problem
>> with valve timing on these engines and there is info on the net for a
>> mod... think it involves breaking off some lugs and repositioning something. Have a search and
>> you'll find it.
>>
If you need to damage the engine parts you are not assembling it correctly. The only problem with mine was the ignition timing, (distributor positioning on it's shaft) DO NOT break any parts. Mine runs OK with all the valve and ignition timing correct.
Last edited by: Old Navy on Sat 9 Oct 10 at 09:19
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Just found the info I'd remembered about the valve timing. Perhaps they're not all like it but the guy says Haynes commented they were.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4FwmcIcbWk
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Finally sorted out the alignment of the camshaft in relation to TDC piston 1 but I have discovered the distributor dosn't work. No matter how much I turn it the points don't make contact so no lights flash.
I've opened it up and the spring which touches the point as it turns seems too short. There is no way it can work as there is no contact.
I am not sure if I could post the faulty part onto the distributors if they would replace it for free. If that dosn't work I will be getting out my old 555 times and making my own electric ignition!
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I have just shorted with a crocodile lead to act the point and it each bulb works. The problem is clearly the spring which isn't quite long enough to make a contact.
I am sure I will figure out a way to repair it and get it working.
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Fixed it :).
I removed the spring from the points and then decompressed it :). When I turn the spindle with a screw driver each light comes on in sequence.
It has given me an idea though after I have got it working with the mechanical distributor I could make an electronic ignition for it. Once I have worked out the exact timing it would be a doddle to with a NE555N for what ever modern chips have come out since then.
On a side note I always thought distributors were powered by a motor and not the camshaft. Did they always attach to the camshaft?
I've never had to mess with one as all my cars have had electronic ignition.
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>> On a side note I always thought distributors were powered by a motor and not
>> the camshaft. Did they always attach to the camshaft?
>>
>> I've never had to mess with one as all my cars have had electronic ignition.
>>
The distributor rotates at the same speed (half crankshaft speed) as the camshaft. OHV engines often had a vertical shaft driven by the camshaft, which was located about halfway up the block, with the distributor on the top and the oil pump on the bottom
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Thanks.
Just fitted the blocks now and to get 1 firing in order as you say the HT leads need to come out of the 7 o clock position. Just one thing is confusing me as cylinder one fires should the piston be up?
I have got a bit lost as I spent the last hour rebuilding the internals of the flipping distributor.
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A distributor driven from the end of the cam is quite common. See this drawing of a Citroen BX 1.6 engine.
sites.google.com/site/cwdegier/bx16-engine-front-1200.png
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>> A distributor driven from the end of the cam is quite common. See this drawing
>> of a Citroen BX 1.6 engine.
Its fairly standard with a OHC engine, with OHV or side valve engines the cam is mounted lower in the block, by definition in a OHC engine the cam is mounted at the top of the head, so its easier to put the distributor there.
older designs like the Ford Pinto did however use a block mounted dizzy.
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No 1 cylinder should be at the top with both valves shut.
Don't forget that No 1 cylinder is the one at the distributor end of the engine, The cylinder No's are moulded into the side of the cylinder head.
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>> Just fitted the blocks now and to get 1 firing in order as you say
>> the HT leads need to come out of the 7 o clock position. Just one
>> thing is confusing me as cylinder one fires should the piston be up?
This is an easy way of remembering the stroke order....
suck, squeeze, bang, blow...
Suck, intake stroke, piston going down, inlet valve opening, air/fuel drawn into the cylinder
squeeze, compression stroke, piston going up, both valves closed, contents of cylinder being compressed.
Bang, power stroke, piston going down - forced by fuel mix burning, and rapidly expanding. both valves closed, spark plug fires, in a petrol engine, heat of compressed gas ignites fuel mix in a diesel.
Blow, exhaust stroke, piston going up, exhaust valve open, exhaust gases pushed out by rising piston.
Please note, that is an over simplification, valves don't open/close exactly during each stroke, there are overlaps.
the sparkplug will fire shortly before TDC (Top Dead Centre - when the piston is at its highest position.
But that does show the basic idea.
So in answer to rattle... yes.
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Well if it was a real engine it might not rattle but it will certainly smoke. It all works but I think I must have got the cams in the wrong place. When 1 fires the two valves for 1 are open and they closw when 3 fires.
The problem is it would be an hours job to start removing the camshaft now :(.
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>> Well if it was a real engine it might not rattle but it will certainly
>> smoke. It all works but I think I must have got the cams in the
>> wrong place. When 1 fires the two valves for 1 are open and they closw
>> when 3 fires.
Sounds like you mistimed the cam. try taking the cambelt off, and retiming the engine.
turn the crankshaft one turn.
Be careful you don't bend the valves though!
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I must have done, making the cam was the one thing I was a bit unsure of, the instructions were not clear. Its something to when I have some more time.
The problem I have been working inbetween making this too.
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>>
>> As for my car the cambelt is actually quite an easy job on the FIRE
>> engine but then even main dealer prices are quite low for that job (£150) so
>> its not really worth risking myself. Maybe if I keep the car for ten years
>> I may risk it :p.
>>
>>
>>
IIRC they're changed at 60,000 miles. Make that twenty years on the mileage you're doing. ;-)
Last edited by: Harleyman on Sat 9 Oct 10 at 16:02
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Did you watch this video Rattle?
www.car4play.com/redirect.php?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4FwmcIcbWk
And have you the same problem as he shows at 26sec?
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Looks like it, I will film it too and stick it up on the net too so you can see the problem.
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The spark sequence seems to be correct according to that, but I think the valve timing is wrong.
Interestly sometimes it will refuse to start. It makes a chi chi sound from the chip but the motor or plugs won't power but then i give the crank a turn it comes to life. Very odd.
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:(.
I could have bought a nice Pizza if I bought it a couple of weeks later.
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>> I could have bought a nice Pizza if I bought it a couple of weeks later.
tinyurl.com/2bjynf5
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>>
>> Interestly sometimes it will refuse to start. It makes a chi chi sound from the
>> chip but the motor or plugs won't power but then i give the crank a
>> turn it comes to life. Very odd.
>>
Sounds like lack of lubrication (engine, not operator)
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Just bought the Haynes engine - any tips? - DP
