| Non-motoring > Personal wealth | Miscellaneous |
| Thread Author: legacylad | Replies: 49 |
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 18:32
Personal wealth - legacylad
|
|
Musings on such.....after almost being blown off a mountain yesterday, and increasing wind speed today, I opted for the safer option of a coastal walk. My usual walk up the coast to Denia for lunch in a favourite restaurant. The large marina, which is very attractive to walk around, was, as usual, full. I was surprised by the sheer number of large luxury vessels....my knowledge of such is very limited, but there must have been 30 odd vessels worth a million £ plus tied up. Huge things, often registered in the Caribbean, plus a hundred more which must each be worth a very high six figure sum. Given that Spain must have many similar marinas along its coastline, how the heck do so many people accrue such wealth ? I consider myself fairly affluent in the grand scheme of things, but even if I sold all my goods and chattels....house, car/s, Premium Bonds, camping gear, ever diminishing small drawdown Pension, I would still be nowhere near millionaire status. Incidentally, lunch was at Saona, part of a small restaurant chain. Directly opposite the marina, 3 courses of which there was an extensive choice, delicious and great value at €11.95. You can pay more than that for burger & chips in my local pub back home. The excellent local beer, Turia, was a bit expensive at €4 a pint, but it was a restaurant so I’m not going to grumble. Last edited by: legacylad on Thu 14 Dec 23 at 18:36
|
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 18:38
Personal wealth - Manatee
|
|
>>how the heck do so many people accrue such wealth ? They appropriate from the people who do the work, legally or illegally. And ultimately, all our collective wealth comes from the use of natural resources. |
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 18:51
Personal wealth - legacylad
|
|
>> And ultimately, all our collective wealth comes from the use of natural resources. >> I’d need to find a breeding diamond mine in my back garden. Chuff all chance of that. All I’ve got is a load of limestone. |
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 18:55
Personal wealth - Terry
|
|
Whether "appropriate" is the right word is debatable. Collective wealth depends on how society co-operates to improve the experience of all, not just natural resources. But what it may demonstrate in todays world is the superiority of brains over brawn - although fancy boats may be bought on wealth created by internet start up juveniles or drug and violent crime barons. This has not always been the case - in a less orderly society brawn can triumph over brain. Personally I would go for brains over brawn every time, noting that gross exploitation of brawn may ultimately be destructive. All need a fair and balanced deal! Last edited by: Terry on Thu 14 Dec 23 at 19:00
|
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 19:48
Personal wealth - smokie
|
|
I was talking about similar with someone last week. I reckon many houses in this area are worth upwards of £700k (mine isn't btw!!) and there are many which must be over £1m. No idea if people have them mortgaged or not but the days when we dreamt of winning a million on the pools should probably be more like £5m or more these days. I often mosey around marines in Portugal and elsewhere and it just strikes me how much money s tied up in something which doesn't seem to move much - as well as ongoing monthly fees. Last edited by: smokie on Thu 14 Dec 23 at 19:49
|
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 20:59
Personal wealth - Kevin
|
|
Manatee said: >They appropriate from the people who do the work, legally or illegally. Conveniently ignoring the fact that if it wasn't for some of these yacht-owning-individuals lots of workers would have no income to 'appropriate'. Smokie said: >..it just strikes me how much money s tied up in something which doesn't seem >to move much - as well as ongoing monthly fees. Much cheaper to tie it up, dismiss the crew and just pay mooring, maintenance and possibly shore power fees if it isn't being used or on hire*. * It gets complicated but by being owned and registered overseas by a holding company and (supposedly) available for hire essentially it becomes a 'commercial' vessel and avoids the import taxes and an EU VAT of 20%. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 00:01
Personal wealth - Manatee
|
|
>>Conveniently ignoring the fact that if it wasn't for some of these yacht-owning-individuals Stick your yacht-owning-individuals in the middle of the Sahara with no money and see how much they make. They don't do it on their own. The old deal supposedly was that you had capital and labour. The capitalist finances the business which entitles them to a return. Nevertheless the mill owner was probably 1000 times better off than the spinner or weaver. In times of hardship, there was a not unreasonable expectation that these wealthy mean would help out. They would fund hospitals. They also built or endowed practically every church in the country. Now, businesses typically run on borrowed money. Their owners risk little, because nearly all the assets are financed with debt. If the business fails, as it is more likely to do with heavy debt, the creditors bear the losses. Nobody "makes" a billion pounds. They just stick on to more of the money that passes through their hands. Markets and capital are good at creating wealth, but operate to keep labour poor because they do the opposite of sharing it between the people involved. Americans believe that anybody can be a billionaire. The people who are billionaires want everybody else to think they could all be billionaires and if they aren't, it's their own fault. Oddly, a quarter of them are dirt poor. That's wrong, but saying so makes Bernie Sanders loony left (a "commie" if you are American). Above all however, the system that many seek to justify is destroying the world. I thought after COVID that everybody would now know what 'exponential' means, but they've forgotten already. The answer is economic growth. I give us 100 years. If we aren't extinct by then we will be in another Dark Age. And on that bombshell, I'm off to bed. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 10:44
Personal wealth - Kevin
|
|
Oh, I see. It's not the wealthy individuals that you despise. It's the capitalist system that allows them to exist. You think that the guy who has no financial stake in the business, goes home every night at 5pm and expects his cash to be in the bank every month even if the business made a loss should have a bigger 'share' if there's any profit. >Now, businesses typically run on borrowed money. Their owners risk little, >because nearly all the assets are financed with debt. If the business fails, >as it is more likely to do with heavy debt, the creditors bear the losses. The business owners are called shareholders, they own a share of the business and it's their money that's gone if the business fails. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 11:05
Personal wealth - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> The business owners are called shareholders, they own a share of the business and it's >> their money that's gone if the business fails. Well up to a point Lord Copper. Sure, new starts and many ongoing businesses work that way. The owners hopefully make a good living and accumulate capital in and perhaps outside of the business. But when we get to yachts at Monaco et al we're not talking ordinary people making and selling widgets. We've all read or seen of businesses bought with debt and founder with all hands. Common in retail. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 12:16
Personal wealth - Kevin
|
|
>But when we get to yachts at Monaco et al we're not talking ordinary people making and selling widgets. The yachts at Monaco are the result of someone recognising and satisfying a demand for something that enough people are willing to pay a sufficient price for that makes the supplier relatively wealthy. That's true if the product costs $1 or $1000, only the scale differs. >We've all read or seen of businesses bought with debt and founder with all hands. Businesses that go bust are the ones selling something that nobody wants at the price being asked. I have sympathy for the employees of such businesses but in reality the writing is usually on the wall long before the business goes to it. Unsecured creditors who lose their money should have done their homework. >Common in retail. Who'd have recognised that in the age of the internet billions of people would jump at the chance to buy everything from cat food to computers from one source and have it delivered next day? No need to go into town, pay £5 for the privilege of parking and returning home empty handed because the stores only had what you wanted in blue. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 14:47
Personal wealth - Manatee
|
|
I do know how it works. I'm not talking about s/e trades and small shopkeepers here. I'm guessing you don't want me to write a book The loss making BHS went bust (it was on the point of collapse when Green gave it away). I'm pretty sure he was still hundreds of millions in front even after he agreed to pay £360m towards the black hole in the pension fund. Billionaires don't generally lose now when their businesses fail. Quite the opposite in some cases when they load up the business with debt and extract it in wages or divs. Managed private equity also tends to operate this way. A company I once worked for was sold for £1 including a £50m dowry to maintain it as a going concern. It went bust a couple of years later. The PE investors didn't lose out. AFAIK they still had the £50m. During austerity and COVID, real incomes for employees fell. Billionaires got richer. I'm not envious, money doesn't matter to me now. I am angry for all those who despite their best efforts have to choose between eating and heating. Tory MPs talk as if these people don't work hard enough or are bad money managers. I would suggest that is a minority. Raising a family and keeping a roof over their heads makes most of them very good money managers indeed. The median income is under £30k. I would guess half the households in Britain are struggling at the moment, with interest rate increases and energy cost. Food inflation is probably still in double figures. Quite simply there should not be any billionaires while there is poverty. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 16:40
Personal wealth - Kevin
|
|
Most billionaires owe their wealth to shareholdings so of course they lose if the business folds. >The PE investors didn't lose out. AFAIK they still had the £50m. That is not a fault of the system. It is a fault of what was agreed between the parties. Maybe it was the best deal available at the time and it gave everyone an extra 2 years to sort themselves out? >Quite simply there should not be any billionaires while there is poverty. You don't eradicate poverty by destroying the rewards for success wherever you decide the line should be, $1B, $100M whatever. In the UK the top 1% in terms of income pay 29% of taxes and 12.5% of all Govt. receipts. Make no mistake, the UK needs to compete internationally to attract and retain those high earners otherwise they will just go elsewhere and you can kiss goodbye to that revenue. And we can all drag up examples to suit our argument so I'll see your Philip Green and raise you The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 21:27
Personal wealth - Manatee
|
| Bill Gates, and Buffet, probably help both our adopted points of view. Both take the view that the they have accumulated personally came from should be redistributed and are busy giving it away. |
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 22:51
Personal wealth - Bobby
|
|
Me and the missus were discussing this the other day whilst watching one of those homes abroad programmes. Neither of us fancy a big spacious house. Both feel the location is far more important than the building itself. In an ideal world I think I would want a house on the Isle of Barra. With a decent bit of land, directly facing the sea and plenty sand for the dog (s) to run about! |
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 19:48
Personal wealth - sooty123
|
|
The excellent local beer, Turia, was a bit expensive at €4 a pint, but it >> was a restaurant so I’m not going to grumble. >> Sold in lidl. I don't mind it, its a marzen beer i think, but quite sweet. |
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 20:30
Personal wealth - martin aston
|
|
Many of these seriously expensive will of course be owned by companies via all sorts of financial vehicles. I bet very few are owned in the conventional sense by one person. I don’t really see the attraction of possessions associated with extreme wealth. When I see super-yachts or high end houses I don’t feel envy. It would be like being in an impersonal hotel. Oddly enough there is one luxury yacht I did find attractive : Britannia. The state rooms aside HM had a way of humanising her space. If it ever comes on sale I might be tempted. |
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 21:46
Personal wealth - Runfer D'Hills
|
|
You want to be careful moseying around marines in Portugal Smokie. Some of them won’t like it, and those guys can be a handful if you upset them! ;-) I measure wealth by the metrics of happiness and health mainly. Money helps of course, but without the first two, it’s pretty worthless. |
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 22:20
Personal wealth - Duncan
|
|
>> I measure wealth by the metrics of happiness and health mainly. Money helps of course, >> but without the first two, it’s pretty worthless. >> Would you be happy if you didn't have a bike to fall off, Runfer? |
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 22:24
Personal wealth - tyrednemotional
|
| ...like any cyclist, he's only happy if he has n+1 bikes to (potentially) fall off. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 00:05
Personal wealth - Manatee
|
|
>>I measure wealth by the metrics of happiness and health mainly That, and people, are what is important. Happy is happy, money only matters when you run out. My financial objective has always been to get to a position where I can avoid running out, so I can concentrate on the rest. Incidentally, somebody looked at the predictors of long life. The top one was social integration. Not exercise, diet, or probably money for that matter. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 12:39
Personal wealth - BiggerBadderDave
|
|
'I measure wealth by the metrics of happiness and health mainly.' Difficult to measure wealth. I thought I'd made it when I bought a house with 3 toilets. My parents only have 2. I realised I was wrong all along, it's all about wheelie bins. I have 4 wheelie bins so I think I've done alright but the guy next door has 5 and is a very, very successful engineer. |
|
New Thu 14 Dec 23 22:49
Personal wealth - bathtub tom
|
|
>>Given that Spain must have many similar marinas along its coastline, how the heck do so >>many people accrue such wealth ? I commented on this on a tour -"class A". Response from further back was, "you must be employed the same as I". |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 17:03
Personal wealth - Terry
|
|
To join the UK top 1% wealthiest club you apparently need at least £2m - about 700,000 folk. How is £2m accumulated - senior jobs, no kids; inheritance (a modest house in London is £1m+); start up, run then sell a small business; crime; luck on the gee-gees (less plausible); etc etc. Add to the UK "wealthy" those in Germany, France, Spain, Italy etc + a few Russian oligarchs and Middle East oil wealth and there may be 5-10m people who could afford a £1m + "toy". Not all want big boats - but boaters will often choose to park them in the sunshine. There are apparently 350 marinas in Spain (large and small) - if on average each had 20 big boats there would be 7000 in total - a small part of likely European ownership. Am I envious - no - not because I belong to the 1%, but accept my (generally very fortunate) lot and find fulfilment in family, friends, hobbies etc. If I want a pricy toy I rent it rather than suffer the responsibility of ownership. Written in a rented (for a month) £0.5m apartment in Southern Spain overlooking the Med. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 17:34
Personal wealth - Kevin
|
| The figures I quoted (from HoC Library) were for annual income not asset value. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 18:04
Personal wealth - CGNorwich
|
|
"To join the UK top 1% wealthiest club you apparently need at least £2m - about 700,000 folk." I'm sure that's right. A hell of lot more are worth a million or more . A house worth £400,000, a ££400,000 in investment and a final salary pension from a company or the governement will do the trick with some to spare. In fact anyone who has had a reasonably well paid job for their working life and has not acquired assets of a million has not tried very hard |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 18:56
Personal wealth - sooty123
|
|
The average net wealth of a 65 year old is £432k. The average pension pot of a 65 year old is ~£100k. Is there are a shortage of reasonably well paying jobs or too many not trying hard enough? |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 19:59
Personal wealth - CGNorwich
|
|
mostly the latter.. If the average net wealth of a 65 year old is is £432,000 then there must be more millionaires than I thought. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 21:26
Personal wealth - sooty123
|
|
>> mostly the latter.. Probably more complicated than that, there's only so many reasonably well paid jobs to go around. >> If the average net wealth of a 65 year old is is £432,000 then there >> must be more millionaires than I thought. >> Around 2 million, in terms of assets. |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 21:20
Personal wealth - Duncan
|
|
>> I'm sure that's right. A hell of lot more are worth a million or more >> . A house worth £400,000, a ££400,000 in investment and a final salary pension from >> a company or the governement will do the trick with some to spare. >> >> In fact anyone who has had a reasonably well paid job for their working life >> and has not acquired assets of a million has not tried very hard >> I agree with the second paragraph. A million pounds, round here doesn't buy very much. This is priced at £900,000. www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/136948232#/?channel=RES_BUY |
|
New Fri 15 Dec 23 22:11
Personal wealth - bathtub tom
|
|
A colleague once said "If you get to our age without accruing some assets, then you've done something wrong". I have to agree, but there's still folk out there on pension credit. I was advised in my late teens to look to my pension! |
|
New Sat 16 Dec 23 13:21
Personal wealth - Bobby
|
|
A lot of these assumptions are based on what pensions and employment was like in the last 30/40/50 years. Final salary schemes, defined benefit, decent civil service type schemes and superann. Many of these schemes are now defunct, replaced with far less generous pensions from employers. Add in the multitude of zero hours contracts, casual jobs, contract jobs like couriers etc and it becomes a lot harder to accrue the pension funds that those currently in their 60s were able to. Many of them also benefited from housing boom values whereas many of todays 20 somethings will not be able to get on the property ladder at all. |
|
New Sun 17 Dec 23 12:44
Personal wealth - sooty123
|
|
Many of these schemes are now defunct, replaced with far less generous pensions from employers. >> Add in the multitude of zero hours contracts, casual jobs, contract jobs like couriers etc >> and it becomes a lot harder to accrue the pension funds that those currently in >> their 60s were able to. Many of them also benefited from housing boom values whereas >> many of todays 20 somethings will not be able to get on the property ladder >> at all. > That's a good point, I suspect the pensions of today and the ones people will be claiming in 20/30 years time will be very different. |
|
New Sat 16 Dec 23 13:32
Personal wealth - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> I have to agree, but there's still folk out there on pension credit. I was >> advised in my late teens to look to my pension! For people like you and I who could afford to buy a home that sort of makes sense. If your home is your only asset you'd still get unabated Pension Credit if State Pension etc was below the 'decency threshold'. |
|
New Sat 16 Dec 23 13:30
Personal wealth - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> I'm sure that's right. A hell of lot more are worth a million or more >> . A house worth £400,000, a ££400,000 in investment and a final salary pension from >> a company or the governement will do the trick with some to spare. A final salary pension in, say the Civil Service or NHS will have 'book value' but it's not an asset you can dig into for a nice car or leave to your kids. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 16 Dec 23 at 13:32
|
|
New Sat 16 Dec 23 14:59
Personal wealth - Manatee
|
|
In my last proper job I became a trustee of the pension scheme and thought it my duty to point out to people who weren't in it that ithe scheme was free money and they should join the DC section so if they put 5% in the company would pay 10%. I was chastened when a chap who was 62, with 3 year to go, told me he would end up worse off by joining. He would lose about practically all of any pension he received off his pension credit so paying the 5% would make him worse off. I worked it all out afterwards and he was right. In fact a person in his position could only have made himself better off in retirement with a pot of about £100,000 or more. He only had state pension and lived in rented. IIRC he would get housing benefit and pension credit. You could say he was planning for retirement. Of course the answer is to start well before 62. |
|
New Sat 16 Dec 23 16:41
Personal wealth - legacylad
|
|
Think I started paying into my private pension in my early 20s. Self employed and basic rate tax payer all my life. Trusted friend advised me to stop paying in when I was late 20s, and divert all future pension payments into getting a larger mortgage. Worked a treat….if not I’d still be in a crappy house in Bradford. I’ll now have a large tax free pot when I sell up and buy a small apartment…which suits me just fine as I hope to travel 6 months of the year whilst health allows. Timing the sale is the tricky part |
|
New Sun 17 Dec 23 09:45
Personal wealth - CGNorwich
|
|
“A final salary pension in, say the Civil Service or NHS will have 'book value' but it's not an asset you can dig into for a nice car or leave to your kids.” The whole point of it surely. You can accumulate savings for those things without worrying about day to day living expenses and routine expenditure. It very much is still wealth. |
|
New Sun 17 Dec 23 09:53
Personal wealth - smokie
|
|
... and I understood the lump sum you could take, for a long term middle earning pensioner, could quite significantly contribute towards paying off mortgages, buying cars and being bank of Mum and Dad while leaving enough for a fairly comfortable pension. At least that's how it appears with a couple of couples I know. I suppose I have no knowledge of any other funding they may have. |
|
New Sun 17 Dec 23 11:46
Personal wealth - Terry
|
|
Private and old style public sector pensions are different. With a private pension pot you can chose to take up to 25% tax free out as a lump sum. The balance can be invested in an annuity or the capital simply drawn down. Annuities pay ~4-7% (varies - single life, a couple, increases over time, health, age at start etc). Draw down risks running out of money if you live too long or investments fail to perform. A (say) £400k "pot" would allow drawdown of up to £100k and an annuity of ~£15k pa. For someone on a fairly modest income, accumulating £400k would be challenging. Public sector pensions until fairly recently were often final salary schemes increasing annually with inflation. Some older private sector schemes would be similar. Benefits would typically be based on years of contribution at 1/60th or 1/80th. These have become unaffordable and closed to new entrants years ago. Many will allow withdrawal of a 25% lump sum, and as the government is backing the monthly pension payment it is probably as secure as one can get. |
|
New Sun 17 Dec 23 14:25
Personal wealth - Manatee
|
|
The big win win public sector pensions is full inflation linkage. My mum retired early from teaching and probably drew more in pension than she did in wages. The core of my pension income is defined benefit with some inflation linkage but that is capped at 5% or less. I have another, Section 32 buyout with a guaranteed annuity, that doesn't increase at all. So I get very nervous when inflation hits double figures, and I have no guilt at all about the triple lock. |
|
New Sun 17 Dec 23 14:42
Personal wealth - Bromptonaut
|
|
Most if not all public sector schemes are now 'career average' rather than final salary. It must save some money but it also re-jugs winners and losers for example people promoted later in life are no longer winners. It was a common thing years ago to put Clerical Officers on Temp Promotion for their final year. The old Classic Scheme in the Civil Service accumulated in 80ths so pension after 40 years was half salary but with 3 years pension as a (more or less) automatic lump sum. Around 2002 we were offered new versions, Classic Plus and Premium. Both (IIRC) accumulated in sixtieths so two thirds final salary. Classic added a partner's pension whereas previously one had to be legally married. Cost per month went up a bit. No automatic lump sum though pension could be commuted to get one. |
|
New Sun 17 Dec 23 15:02
Personal wealth - sooty123
|
|
>> Most if not all public sector schemes are now 'career average' rather than final salary. > I think they are all CA, however some got more (7?) years in final salary as the gov was found to have discriminated on age grounds when they switched all the public sector schemes. |
|
New Sun 17 Dec 23 19:04
Personal wealth - Bobby
|
|
My dad took a redundancy/ retirement package at 58. He is just about to turn 92. He has been collecting pension longer from his employer, Bass breweries, than he worked there. In actual fact, this time next year he will have been collecting pension longer than he was working for all his employers combined! |
|
New Tue 19 Dec 23 19:33
Personal wealth - legacylad
|
|
>> He has been collecting pension longer from his employer, Bass breweries, than he worked there. Friend of mine worked for Bass. Originally in Burton then relocated to Cardiff…whenever we stayed with him his home was full of booze. Got a nice alcohol allowance from his employer. |
|
New Tue 19 Dec 23 21:14
Personal wealth - Bobby
|
|
>>Got a nice alcohol allowance from his employer. Yip if memory serves me right he used to get 18 cases (of 24 cans) a year. Got vouchers that he had to take to the off sales and redeem them! He worked for Tennents in Glasgow, but they were owned by Bass in those days. |
|
New Tue 19 Dec 23 16:52
Personal wealth - Mapmaker
|
|
I was having a coffee with some people whom I don't really know. They started ranting on how rich people should pay 95% tax. I said, if the tax rate is that high then people don't bother working. I was shouted down. The following day one of them announced they only work 4 days a week to avoid being a higher rate taxpayer. Another (self-employed) announced they only work enough to keep themselves below the higher rate threshold. A third works three days a week for the same reason. I repeated the previous day's conversation back to them and the response was 'everybody should pay more tax but me'. |
|
New Tue 19 Dec 23 17:00
Personal wealth - CGNorwich
|
|
I can remember when there was a 95% tax rate in 1966. As the Beatles put it in "Taxman" Should five percent appear too small Be thankful I don't take it all 'Cause I'm the taxman Yeah, I'm the taxman |
|
New Tue 19 Dec 23 17:10
Personal wealth - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> The following day one of them announced they only work 4 days a week to >> avoid being a higher rate taxpayer. Another (self-employed) announced they only work enough to keep >> themselves below the higher rate threshold. A third works three days a week for the >> same reason. I'm not sure I understand that either as you still keep 60p of every £1 though if you've got kids and your Child Benefit is eroded as well the marginal rate gets silly. |
|
New Tue 19 Dec 23 17:17
Personal wealth - sooty123
|
|
I read about that, if you have kids the rate is very high. I think the trick is to not earn 50-60k, less or more is a more normal level of tax. x.com/DanNeidle/status/1726566756871991304?t=OVov_wkpLOB4CDupF9_XtA&s=08 Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 19 Dec 23 at 17:18
|
|
New Tue 19 Dec 23 17:45
Personal wealth - Bromptonaut
|
|
>> I read about that, if you have kids the rate is very high. I think >> the trick is to not earn 50-60k, less or more is a more normal level >> of tax. >> >> x.com/DanNeidle/status/1726566756871991304?t=OVov_wkpLOB4CDupF9_XtA&s=08 I'd seen Dan Neidle's bit too. Martin Lewis has also given it both barrels. CWOT for the amount it saves v problems it causes. My son in law, a Marine Architect, is in the £50-£60k band and but for this would be on PAYE and nowt else same as I am. He now has to do a Self Assessment return. |
Forum Version 3.0 - By Khoosys
Car4play Forum
