Non-motoring > The Elgin Marbles.	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: Zero	Replies: 45

New Tue 28 Nov 23 13:05   The Elgin Marbles. - Zero

The Row. So Rishy cancelled a meeting with the Greek PM because he mentioned it. Is he off his marbles or what? It was a given it would get mentioned, so what the big deal? pathetic. for an opinion, stuff that was "stolen" in this manner should go back. I have seen them in the BM, and its a bit underwhelming completely devoid of location context. Surely if you want to see stuff like this you go see it in situ. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 28 Nov 23 13:21   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

There's loads of stuff in the BM that was stolen and should be elsewhere. The Lewis Chessmen as a starter for 10. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 28 Nov 23 14:48   The Elgin Marbles. - Terry

Save that which originated in the UK, pretty much everything in the BM was stolen from someone. Even that from the UK may have been forcibly separated from its original owner. Even where overseas "treasure" was acquired for a few baubles given to the (at the time) unsophisticated unsuspecting natives, one could argue this was fraud not theft. The BM has ~9m artifacts (that is just a guess - they don't know). Nor do they really know what has been liberated (stolen from them) over the years. However given the corrupt nature of many of the places from which these artifacts originated, one has to seriously question whether they have been safer in the custody of the BM or more likely to have disappeared had they been left to the locals. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 28 Nov 23 17:26   The Elgin Marbles. - CGNorwich

1 They weren't stolen. They were taken with the permission of the Ottoman officials who ruled Athens at the time - around 1810. The UK actually has a better legal title to them than does Greece 2 Since the Ottoman Empire no longer exists it is no possible to give them back to their original owner. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 28 Nov 23 at 17:27 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 28 Nov 23 17:40   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

>> >> 1 They weren't stolen. They were taken with the permission of the Ottoman officials who >> ruled Athens at the time - around 1810. The UK actually has a better legal >> title to them than does Greece >> >> 2 Since the Ottoman Empire no longer exists it is no possible to give them >> back to their original owner. U R Rish! and I claim my £5. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 28 Nov 23 22:46   The Elgin Marbles. - Zero

>> >> 1 They weren't stolen. They were taken with the permission of the Ottoman officials who >> ruled Athens at the time - around 1810. The UK actually has a better legal >> title to them than does Greece Excellent, I can keep the old masters looted from Europe under Nazi rule Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 28 Nov 23 18:00   The Elgin Marbles. - CGNorwich

"The Lewis Chessmen as a starter for 10. " Yes they should make all possible efforts to track down the Norwegian or possibly Irish Trader who conealed them on the beach. They certainly aren't Scottish Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 28 Nov 23 18:44   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

>> "The Lewis Chessmen as a starter for 10. " >> >> Yes they should make all possible efforts to track down the Norwegian or possibly Irish >> Trader who conealed them on the beach. They certainly aren't Scottish Grasping the Scandinavian influence on the Western Isles needs nothing more forensic than an examination of place names.... Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 28 Nov 23 22:47   The Elgin Marbles. - Zero

>> >> "The Lewis Chessmen as a starter for 10. " >> >> >> >> Yes they should make all possible efforts to track down the Norwegian or possibly >> Irish >> >> Trader who conealed them on the beach. They certainly aren't Scottish Well at least Scotland is part of Great Britain, so the British museum is as good a place to show them. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 29 Nov 23 09:59   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

>>Well at least Scotland is part of Great Britain, so the British museum is as good a place to show them. They should, absent the facility/road access to Uig or Mealista allowing them to be 'at home', be in Lews Castle. Not holding my breath though. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 29 Nov 23 at 09:59 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 17:55   The Elgin Marbles. - Biggles

>> The Lewis Chessmen as a starter for 10. We could follow up with a request for the 23 tons of silver from Austria. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 18:10   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

>> We could follow up with a request for the 23 tons of silver from Austria. Lost me there. What's the connection between artefacts dug up or exposed by a storm around Uig (a place I know well) and 23 tons of silver? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 19:54   The Elgin Marbles. - Biggles

That was the ransom paid to free good King Richard. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 21:25   The Elgin Marbles. - CGNorwich

“Good King Richard” would certainly be regarded as a war criminal today. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 09:16   The Elgin Marbles. - Manatee

Assuming there's no more to this than we've seen, Sunak looks like a petulant child. I think we should send them back. It's a big thing in Greece, there's kudos (is that a Greek word?) galore for Britain in it and I hope Starmer can bring it about in a year or so. What possible justification is there for keeping them? The Greeks have built a fantastic museum to house them and the BM can hardly claim they are keeping them safe, tons of their stuff has gone missing. The Pergamon is probably worse for stolen antiquities. They have a complete gate of Babylon in there. Incredible sight. You can't see it because it's closed for refurbishment, and the bit with the Ishtar gate in it won't reopen until about 1937 IIRC. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 29 Nov 23 09:30   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

It crossed my mind that there might be bad blood between Sunak and George Osborne who is now the capo de capo at the British Museum and has a well advanced plan to loan the marbles to Athens. Is Sunak sufficiently vindictive to do that? He's also responded to the new Argentine regime by doubling down over the Falklands/Malvinas. I appreciate that a few months before a UK election's not the time to get weaving on talks but it was pig headed refusal to think about the problem that led to the 1982 invasion. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 09:46   The Elgin Marbles. - Manatee

If they are trying to fit these issues into their culture war strategy then the Falklands makes more sense, at least in their swivel eyed world. The British people for the most part have no attachment to the marbles. The Greeks do. It's a great opportunity for Britain to be the bigger man. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 10:36   The Elgin Marbles. - sooty123

Will the government carve out time to change the law on this. Unlikely. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 10:40   The Elgin Marbles. - sooty123

The people on the FI have no wish to deal much with Argentina, less come under any form of control. If any government is pig headed it's successive Argentinian governments that fail to understand why the people on the FI do not want to come under any control by them. Rather than shouting about las malvinas, they may do well to ponder why that is. Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 29 Nov 23 at 10:40 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 17:33   The Elgin Marbles. - Terry

Typical political shambles. Rather than a quiet word with Rishi in private the Greek PM goes public - from a Greek perspective being tough and shouting ones rights at a perfidious Albion is a vote winner. Rishi does not want to appear bullied - cannot concede - and takes his ball back. What the outcome would have been had the quiet word rather than table thumping strategy been adopted is anyone's guess. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 17:42   The Elgin Marbles. - Lygonos

More likely engineered so the gammons can see the PM "standing up for Britain" Sooner they're gone the better. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 18:05   The Elgin Marbles. - Zero

>> Rather than a quiet word with Rishi in private the Greek PM goes public - >> from a Greek perspective being tough and shouting ones rights at a perfidious Albion is >> a vote winner. Except he didnt and it wasnt. It was an answer to a specific question asked by a reporter. And he gave a perfectly rational unemotional answer Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 23:20   The Elgin Marbles. - Manatee

>> Except he didnt and it wasnt. It was an answer to a specific question asked >> by a reporter. And he gave a perfectly rational unemotional answer Not forgetting the Greek PM would make himself very unpopular at home if he didn't give a very unequivocal answer to that question. Sunak would have known that he had little choice, so his response was just an opportunistic bit of grandstanding to the swivel eyed. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 30 Nov 23 07:25   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

>> Typical political shambles. >> >> Rather than a quiet word with Rishi in private the Greek PM goes public - >> from a Greek perspective being tough and shouting ones rights at a perfidious Albion is >> a vote winner. I suspect quiet, and not so quiet, words have been said by successive Greek governments to their UK counterparts on many, many occasions. The Greek position that the sculptures are there's is well known and UK ownership is far from a slam dunk case. The question is why the UK, or Rishi personally, thought it necessary or appropriate to try and gag Greek PM on a subject of significant importance in his domestic politics. Suppose the roles were reversed and significant parts of Stonehenge were in the Greek National Collection. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 30 Nov 23 09:19   The Elgin Marbles. - tyrednemotional

>> >> Suppose the roles were reversed and significant parts of Stonehenge were in the Greek National Collection. >> ...well, it would probably save us all the commotion about a tunnel.... Can't we just send the marbles back to Elgin? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 30 Nov 23 09:57   The Elgin Marbles. - Kevin

>Can't we just send the marbles back to Elgin? He gave up playing years ago. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 30 Nov 23 12:32   The Elgin Marbles. - Zero

>> Suppose the roles were reversed and significant parts of Stonehenge were in the Greek National >> Collection. One wonders how the spartans would have got those stonking great stones to Greece in those little ships. And I think someone might notice if lorries turned up now to transport them to Southampton docks for the next Kristos Lineas cargo ship to Piraeus. Do they fit in a container? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 1 Dec 23 20:09   The Elgin Marbles. - Kevin

Greek newspaper "Free Hour" hasn't held back criticism of Sunak for his childish behaviour. Their headline (actually in English) was "F You Fatherless-expletive". greekcitytimes.com/2023/12/01/f-you-greek-newspaper-slams-mouse-faced-sunak-in-parthenon-marbles-spat/ Greek City Times has also noted that Sunak was sidelined at the COP28 Summit in Dubai. For the attendee photo-shoot he was positioned behind the Prime Minister of Albania while King Chuck wore a tie with the Hellenic flag on it. greekcitytimes.com/2023/12/01/king-charles-wore-a-tie-sunak/ Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 1 Dec 23 22:23   The Elgin Marbles. - Manatee

And Sunak continues to blunder about. He says "Our position is very clear - as a matter of law the Marbles can't be returned and we've been unequivocal about that." If they can contemplate changing the law to make Rwanda safe, it doesn't really wash as an excuse to keep the marbles here. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 1 Dec 23 22:34   The Elgin Marbles. - tyrednemotional

...it's all the fault of the ECHR (European Court of Historic Relics).... Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 18:08   The Elgin Marbles. - sooty123

nd I hope Starmer can >> bring it about in a year or so. >> >> Apparently starmer stated today in his meeting with the greek PM, last week, he would not change the law either and they would remain in the UK under any future Labour Gov. Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 29 Nov 23 at 18:09 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 20:13   The Elgin Marbles. - Bobby

Apparently Starmer has now changed his mind on that… Probably Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 29 Nov 23 20:26   The Elgin Marbles. - Biggles

They can be sent on permanent loan without a change in the law, I believe. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 11:43   The Elgin Marbles. - Zero

A recent poll suggests 15% of the electorate are firm of the idea of the marbles staying in the uk. 53% say send them back, the rest dont knows dont cares. So WTF is Sunak pandering to? Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 12:29   The Elgin Marbles. - Manatee

>> A recent poll suggests 15% of the electorate are firm of the idea of the >> marbles staying in the uk. 53% say send them back, the rest dont knows dont >> cares. >> >> So WTF is Sunak pandering to? That's why I think he's more focussed on keeping the nutter MPs and members happy even than winning the election, although he might think the two are intertwined. British people are largely indifferent to it. It's a big thing to the Greeks. Why not do somebody a good turn when it costs so little, rather than picking fights? Most of the cabinet must wake up every morning thinking "what can we kick over and break today?" rather than "whose life can we improve?". Edit: I'd love to know how many of those 15% have ever seen the marbles or even plan to see them. Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 2 Dec 23 at 12:31 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 12:56   The Elgin Marbles. - sooty123

That's why I think he's more focussed on keeping the nutter MPs and members happy >> even than winning the election, although he might think the two are intertwined. Do his MPs care much about this issue? I've not seen much from anyone that (publicly) says this is some sort of red line. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 13:32   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

>> Do his MPs care much about this issue? I've not seen much from anyone that >> (publicly) says this is some sort of red line. I think the likes of 30p Lee or Jonathan Gullis would regard it as a matter of national pride. Whether it's a red line is a different question. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 13:47   The Elgin Marbles. - sooty123

Maybe, but if they are bothered by this they're very quiet all of a sudden. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 14:09   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

>> Maybe, but if they are bothered by this they're very quiet all of a sudden. Maybe it's red meat for folks who are in arms over boats or migrants in genral. Culture wars? Stick one on the Europeans? Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 14:14   The Elgin Marbles. - sooty123

i've no idea, i would have thought if they had pushed the pm onto this path then they'd be in the press making statements about it. But who knows. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 14:36   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

@sooty123, We're probably overthinking it if we're expecting to figure some sort of strategy. Maybe he's just a petulant git. The Graun have done a bit of analysis: www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/02/parthenon-marbles-row-diplomats-rishi-sunak-david-cameron To me it's out of the same box as when Cameron vetoed a bail out for Greece, to which we were not fiscally exposed, in the run up to 2016. No good can come of it; classic nose>spite>face stuff. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 16:36   The Elgin Marbles. - Terry

Like a couple of squabbling children. I want my marbles back. They're my marbles. I paid for them. I found them first. Jack won't play marbles with me. I'm taking my marbles home. Jack give Tom some marbles. No. Won't. Etc, etc, etc. As a parent of the two argumentative kids - confiscate said marbles and trash them. The argument then stops as there is nothing left to argue about. There really are more important things to get excited about! Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 16:41   The Elgin Marbles. - Bromptonaut

Viewing this through the prism of stuff that means a lot to me, like the Chessmen, it's difficult to see at that way. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 18:02   The Elgin Marbles. - Zero

www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2023/dec/01/parthenon-marbles-greece-treasure Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Dec 23 19:15   The Elgin Marbles. - smokie

At least someone has found a humorous side to it... And the footnote was traditionally "Grauniad"... "This article was amended on 2 December 2023. An earlier version misspelled the Vercelli Book as the “Vercilli Book” Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 3 Dec 23 15:11   The Elgin Marbles. - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/sir-keir-starmer-tries-to-woo-tory-voters-telling-them-take-a-look-at-labour-again-13021634 Seems the PM's not the only one with an unusual strategy. Appealing to the blue wall? I bet many in his party aren't happy. Reply to this message | Report message