Non-motoring > Strikes - Volume 3   [Read only]
Thread Author: VxFan	Replies: 188

New Tue 27 Jun 23 10:18   Strikes - Volume 3 - VxFan

***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 4 ***** ============================================================= Discussion continues Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 14 Feb 24 at 11:05

New Fri 23 Jun 23 22:48   Strikes - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/junior-doctors-to-strike-for-five-days-in-july-in-longest-single-period-of-industrial-action-in-nhs-history-12908212 Seems like the drs aren't backing down.

New Fri 23 Jun 23 22:58   Strikes - Duncan

But other people have accepted the same deal that is on offer to the docs.

New Sat 24 Jun 23 09:34   Strikes - Rudedog

We've were told about this a few days ago to start planning to move activity around.... yesterday also heard that the consultants are planning to strike either straight after the juniors or a short time after, haven't had full confirmation on dates yet.

New Sat 24 Jun 23 10:56   Strikes - Terry

As a general observation health service workers probably enjoy the highest level of public support amongst the various striking groups. But I do wonder if support for doctors will be eroded. Their claim is so far adrift of other settlements and government policy that the problems besetting the NHS (waiting lists etc) will increasingly be blamed on the doctors intransigence. Perhaps time for grown up behaviour on both sides of the negotiation.

New Sat 24 Jun 23 12:35   Strikes - zippy

At the last strike - a couple of weeks ago, the Trust where Miss Z works asked junior doctors to provide emergency cover as patient safety was at risk, which as a good will gesture they did, only to find, when they turned up, the consultants sodded off!!! Local junior doctors have said never again, unless it's a major disaster.

New Sat 24 Jun 23 20:56   Strikes - CGNorwich

Everybody in this country has to get it into their head that we are all going to get poorer, Wages are not going to rise in line with inflation, savings are going to be eaten into by inflation, government benefits are not going to rise in line with inflation, house prices are going to fall and mortgages are going to increase. In effect we have been overpaying ourselves for years in terms of what our economy can sustain and the chickens are coming home to roost.

New Sat 24 Jun 23 21:08   Strikes - Zero

Roosting chickens have gone up, so no, not coming to most homes.

New Sat 24 Jun 23 21:13   Strikes - legacylad

Best spending your money (savings) before it depreciates in value. And whilst you have your health and mental faculties ...my old mum has Alzheimer’s and without going into detail I’m glad she did what she did, with my help, before it came to this sad turn of events.

New Sat 24 Jun 23 21:12   Strikes - sooty123

>> Everybody in this country has to get it into their head It generally depends where you are in the food chain as to how easy that is to accept. Of course there's another school of thought that believes that's nonsense.

New Sun 25 Jun 23 01:00   Strikes - Terry

The government ably assisted by the Bank of England has printed money - it avoids immediately dealing the reality and may be socially justified. - in 2001 it was 28% of GDP - by 2010 it had grown to 70% after bailing out the banks - it is now 100% following covid The numbers are larger but it is fundamentally no different to an individual taking out second and third mortgages, running up credit card bills, funding cars and holidays on PCP deals and loans. The UK is en-route to bankruptcy and needs to change radically. It is now payback time. - inflation has slashed ~10% off the value of any savings the prudent may have - wages will not generally keep up with inflation - a reduction in real terms of 3-10% - those with large mortgages will struggle at renewal time - higher interest rates on savings will not keep up with inflation - house prices may fall somewhat - a further erosion of asset values Those with savings and/or comfortable incomes will find it easier to weather the economic storm, but all in society are impacted. It just hurts in different ways.

New Sun 25 Jun 23 08:45   Strikes - Lygonos

"2023 Annual Pension Increase (API) The increase to your pension will be 10.1%, which will be applied to your pension from 10 April 2023." Pensions need to be rising no greater than earnings or the economic spiral accelerates. I'm already receiving my pension - how are they going to afford the increases when earnings are rising 5-6% behind pensions? Let's see the Govt grow the pods to deal with that issue.

New Sun 25 Jun 23 09:22   Strikes - CGNorwich

“Pensions need to be rising no greater than earnings or the economic spiral accelerates.” And all private and public inflation linked pensions need to be amended accordingly.

New Sun 25 Jun 23 14:41   Strikes - Terry

The triple lock was introduced in 2010 with the best of intentions but is unaffordable long term. Which government will have the courage to change it? Bear in mind that the triple lock relates to the state pension + the fortunate recipients of public sector pensions based on final salary and inflation proofed (mostly existing pensioners and those close to retirement) Even public sector pensions have now been trimmed back to career average with various transition arrangements for existing staff. One of my private sector final salary pensions provided for inflationary increases but only up to a maximum of 3%. Another had to be bailed out by the pensions protection fund and I get no increase. I have lost in real terms on both - fortunately they are not my only income.

New Sun 25 Jun 23 16:04   Strikes - Bromptonaut

>> But other people have accepted the same deal that is on offer to the docs. They have but the doctors have not; horses/courses. Reports today are that the government will not honour what the review bodies suggest as it's too much. Is there no end to their hypocrisy??

New Sun 25 Jun 23 16:21   Strikes - sooty123

Have they said they would accept the pay review bodies recommendations already?

New Sun 25 Jun 23 18:07   Strikes - sooty123

Reports today are that the government will not honour what the review bodies suggest as >> it's too much. >> >> news.sky.com/story/union-body-accuses-government-of-playing-politics-amid-reports-6-public-sector-pay-rises-could-be-blocked-12908823

New Sun 25 Jun 23 19:04   Strikes - smokie

"Government sources didn't deny the claims, saying that "pumping money direct into the economy risks fuelling inflation" They do have a point don't they?

New Sun 25 Jun 23 19:11   Strikes - Lygonos

No idea - maybe giving a few hundred quid to every house in the UK for energy bills was inflationary?...

New Sun 25 Jun 23 19:15   Strikes - smokie

Well yes, it was...

New Sun 25 Jun 23 19:55   Strikes - Zero

>> No idea - maybe giving a few hundred quid to every house in the UK >> for energy bills was inflationary?... The rise in energy bills was inflationary, not giving you a bit towards it.

New Sun 25 Jun 23 21:00   Strikes - Lygonos

>>The rise in energy bills was inflationary, not giving you a bit towards it. And this money came from?

New Mon 26 Jun 23 09:43   Strikes - Zero

>> >>The rise in energy bills was inflationary, not giving you a bit towards it. >> >> And this money came from? Just sayin, the sole cause of inflation is not an increase in the money supply. We printed shedloads of new money into the system during stagflation periods and it didnt peak.

New Sun 25 Jun 23 22:23   Strikes - CGNorwich

"The rise in energy bills was inflationary, not giving you a bit towards it." An increase in the supply of money will inevitably lead to inflation. All other things being equal the reduction of available money caused by the increase in energy prices would have been deflationary. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 25 Jun 23 at 22:24

New Sun 25 Jun 23 23:00   Strikes - Manatee

>> An increase in the supply of money will inevitably lead to inflation. Except in Japan.

New Sun 25 Jun 23 23:07   Strikes - CGNorwich

Yes they stuff their futons with it

New Sun 25 Jun 23 23:34   Strikes - Bromptonaut

>> Yes they stuff their futons with it Are futons actually still a thing?

New Mon 26 Jun 23 08:51   Strikes - CGNorwich

There is a shop in Norwich called the Futon Company so I guess so. Of course Norfolk is the Far East. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Mon 26 Jun 23 at 08:51

New Mon 26 Jun 23 09:14   Strikes - bathtub tom

We've a futon as a chair/guest bed. I don't use it as if I get down that low, I've a problem getting back up again.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 09:39   Strikes - Zero

We have a futon in the attic room, its to encourage guests not to stay too long

New Mon 26 Jun 23 11:42   Strikes - Ted

We had an official futon at the office. The most uncomfortable piece of kit I've ever tried to sleep on ! Ted

New Mon 26 Jun 23 09:46   Strikes - Zero

>> "The rise in energy bills was inflationary, not giving you a bit towards it." >> >> An increase in the supply of money will inevitably lead to inflation. All other things >> being equal the reduction of available money caused by the increase in energy prices would >> have been deflationary. Inflation is a rise in the cost of buying and doing business. War, Pandemic and Brexit is the root cause of this period of inflation, not money supply. We increased money supply loads of times in the last 15 years, and inflation didnt go rampant, so its not the root cause.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 10:13   Strikes - Terry

Not entirely true - war, pandemic, Brexit were the final catalyst, not the cause. An analogy with personal finance - borrow money for years - credit cards, loans, 2nd and 3rd mortgages etc. No problem so long as banks think it will be paid back. Lose job, uninsured loss, health problems etc - the capacity to borrow more to fund a fundamentally unaffordable lifestyle disappears. Same with national economies - as national debt increases the willingness of lenders to loan more funds diminishes and they charge a higher interest rate to cover the risk. Timescales for national economies are different to personal - but ultimately debt becomes unsustainable. Inflation is one way out of the mess - it reduces real incomes providing pay increases less than prices, reduces the real value of debt (only about 25% is index linked), reduces wealth held by individuals as interest rates are below inflation.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 10:34   Strikes - Bobby

If I’m a high earner and spend say £3k a month on outgoings and bank 5k, the rate of inflation ain’t really going to affect me adversely. I will still carry on with life and each month I will have more money than I did last month. If I have a mortgage that rates are increasing to the extent that I need to cut back on all non essential spending just to survive and keep a roof over my head, then rise in interest rates has a crippling effect. As often the case, it’s the poorest in society who will be affected hardest by this Govts actions.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 10:43   Strikes - Zero

I took out my first mortgage in the early 1980s, it was around the 9% mark I think. At one point in the intervening years I was paying 15% and the lowest 5%. We coped when it was virtually unaffordable because we had to. Mortgages have been cheap for too long, leading people into a false sense of fiscal security (or an inflated sense of profligacy if you like)

New Mon 26 Jun 23 10:52   Strikes - Bromptonaut

>> I took out my first mortgage in the early 1980s, it was around the 9% >> mark I think. I'm in roughly the same cohort but a bit later; first mortgage was in 1986. It would be interesting to know the % of one's income going to the mortgage at 15% of 1980s house prices and at 5% based on what they are today. And we got tax relief on the interest for a fair chunk of the time.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 15:50   Strikes - zippy

>> It would be interesting to know the % of one's income going to the mortgage >> at 15% of 1980s house prices and at 5% based on what they are today. >> And we got tax relief on the interest for a fair chunk of the time. 1986 here. £25k mortgage, cost about £200 a month (the calculator says £263, but there was MIRAS then which reduced it a chunk). I was earning £275 a month and the girlfriend was on £350, so 32% (very small house, average area). Equivalent Miss Z, £180k mortgage, earns £3600, boyfriend £2400 a month and pays £1100 mortgage, so 18% (2 bed flat in very nice area, 2 reception room). In 2007, I earned about 50% of what I do no, but that was when I felt richest (A4 convertible time, 2 year old Touran, purchased new) and had the most disposable income. Two kids at home, one wage. Holidays abroad. Couldn't afford the car or the holidays now - and my gross salary is 2x what it was then. One wage then and one wage now. There were some child benefits but not a lot as we didn't qualify for most of them earnings wise.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 11:01   Strikes - sooty123

twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1572975530722627584 Comparison of current interest rates vs the past.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 12:53   Strikes - smokie

I was a bit earlier with my 1st mortgage, about 1978 I'd guess. We needed £10.5k to buy a £12.3k house but the max we could have by multiples of salaries was £10k. But the bank kindly gave us the extra £500 at a higher rate of interest (thieves!!). Another fact i remember was they would only give us more multiples of my salary than they would my wife's (2.5 and 0.5 rings a bell) - we couldn't swap them round - and she earned more than me!! We were both on quite acceptable salaries for the time but we can clearly remember not having any money way before pay day, and struggling to buy food for just two of us. No fancy TVs, cars, holidays, mobiles, PCs or kids. Mostly second hand furniture. Barely any social life. That simply wouldn't be seen as acceptable these days. It's when I start telling stories like this that I start to think I'm sounding like my parents.... or Monty Python!! Related point of interest... A similar house a few doors along from that £12.3k house sold for £465k in Oct 22. That's not that far off the value of my current house now, so we've not been very lucky in that direction. Friends who have moved around a lot seem to have done better. But then again we haven't had large mortgages tying us down forever.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 14:17   Strikes - Duncan

First mortgage end of 1965. Fixed rate with GLC at 7.125%. As time went on, people who had smirked at us paying 7.125% wished their mortgage was as low. The value of the house has increased by some 9000%. Have I got that right? About 100 fold.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 14:24   Strikes - Zero

>> The value of the house has increased by some 9000%. Have I got that right? >> About 100 fold. Average house value in the South East has increased by about 6.5% per annum in the long term

New Mon 26 Jun 23 15:03   Strikes - Duncan

We paid £4,750 at the end of 1965. Zoopla says value now is £460,000 - £508,000.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 15:45   Strikes - Zero

>> We paid £4,750 at the end of 1965. >> >> Zoopla says value now is £460,000 - £508,000. about 8% pa.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 14:18   Strikes - Zero

>> rate of interest (thieves!!). Another fact i remember was they would only give us more >> multiples of my salary than they would my wife's (2.5 and 0.5 rings a bell) >> - we couldn't swap them round - and she earned more than me!! Women then were (and probably still are secretly) seen as a poor long term financial risk.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 15:33   Strikes - tyrednemotional

...it's certainly been the case with SWMBO.... ;-)

New Mon 26 Jun 23 15:48   Strikes - Runfer D'Hills

…you too eh? :-(

New Mon 26 Jun 23 17:25   Strikes - bathtub tom

First mortgage 1970, married '71, missus at teacher training college. She worked as a waitress all Summer holiday to earn enough to buy a spin dryer.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 17:59   Strikes - zippy

>>Women then were (and probably still are secretly) seen as a poor long term financial risk. Not on any of the credit models we have. I remember as a kid mum going to the Seeboard shop to buy a freezer. She wanted to pay monthly and the man refused to sell it to her on credit without dad's written permission, despite the fact as a translator she earned about 2x him. In 2005 we were in the market for a new family car and purchased the Touran after Vauxhall screwed up the order on a Zafira. The were looking around at quite a number of different possibilities and each time we made it crystal clear that the car was for Mrs Z and she had to like it. The number of sales people that ignored her and offered me the driving seat for a test drive was astonishing. The VW dealer got it right first time and throughout the process. Last edited by: zippy on Mon 26 Jun 23 at 18:01

New Mon 26 Jun 23 18:17   Strikes - smokie

Went to a National Trust place the other day and I asked the room attendant something, and part way into his well worn script I told him that SWMBO was the historian and I wasn't that interested (politely of course) but he continued to mostly address me with the remainder of the story.

New Mon 26 Jun 23 22:03   Strikes - Duncan

Why did you ask him if you weren't interested?

New Mon 26 Jun 23 22:34   Strikes - Bobby

Was thinking the same!

New Mon 26 Jun 23 23:25   Strikes - smokie

I actually asked him if he knew it was the room in which Josh Widdicombe first found out he was royally related on that TV show where they trace celebs lineage. (I didn't know, SWMBO told me that as we went in). He didn't, and I think his answer would have been the same whatever the question!! :-) Last edited by: smokie on Mon 26 Jun 23 at 23:26

New Mon 26 Jun 23 22:02   Strikes - Zero

>> The number of sales people that ignored her and offered me the driving seat for >> a test drive was astonishing. Thats just poor salesmanship. A key part of the sales patter ia to discover and test who the decision maker is, and not to assume.

New Tue 27 Jun 23 08:16   Strikes - CGNorwich

I bought my present car through DTD. Apart from the savings it was a pleasure not to have to spend hours listening to all that sales crap. Definitely recommended.

New Tue 27 Jun 23 08:27   Strikes - Zero

The conversation at my local BMW dealer was long and involved. "I am interested in a 540i Estate" "We dont have one of those, we can lend you a 520d Estate for 24 hours tomorrow, and a 540i saloon the day after and you put the two together in your mind" As far as price haggling goes, I took the DTD quote in. "Fine - lets start the paperwork" Last edited by: Zero on Tue 27 Jun 23 at 08:28

New Tue 27 Jun 23 13:38   Strikes - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/nurses-strikes-in-england-set-to-end-12910301 No more strike action from nurses but they've not yet accepted the pay offer.

New Tue 27 Jun 23 14:06   Strikes - CGNorwich

Common sense prevails.

New Tue 27 Jun 23 14:14   Strikes - Rudedog

When you say 'accepted' even the nurses who voted to strike will have received the 2022/23 lump sum and 2023 salary increase in their payslips this month - depending on your banding it's not something to be sneezed at.

New Tue 27 Jun 23 19:10   Strikes - Lygonos

>>Common sense prevails. Yup. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-65992178

New Wed 5 Jul 23 12:15   Strikes - Volume 3 - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/nearly-every-railway-ticket-office-in-england-set-to-close-under-new-plans-12915187 Might be more strikes coming down the tracks.

New Wed 5 Jul 23 12:41   Ticket offices closing - Manatee

Fairly inevitable I think, although if you take out the season ticket holders the percentage using ticket offices will be much higher (and will include less able and infrequent travellers less familiar with electronic ticketing etc). The ticket offices at Tring and Wendover are always busy at peak times. As an occasional train user, maybe 10-20 return trips to London each year, I used to use the counter rather than the frequently broken or congested self-service machine but for 2-3 years I have been buying them online the night before - there are barriers with scanners at the London stations so I don't need to print them off. 'They' are about to extend the tap-and-go carry-on out here as well (currently ends at Amersham).

New Wed 5 Jul 23 12:50   Ticket offices closing - Zero

It is inevitable, this is after all the 21st century. I dont take all this tosh re "What about the aged and pensioners". I am both and I cope well enough. We cant hold up progress.

New Wed 5 Jul 23 13:20   Ticket offices closing - Bromptonaut

>> It is inevitable, this is after all the 21st century. I dont take all this >> tosh re "What about the aged and pensioners". I am both and I cope well >> enough. We cant hold up progress. True but both you and I have used the trains to commute AND have enough interest to spend time and money following railway events. We're also both thoroughly IT literate, have smart phones etc. If ticket office staff are redeloyed onto the concourse with means to issue tickets to those blundering around the station then all may be good. That said some of the staff at the current barriers at Northampton/Milton Keynes don't have a scooby about customer service. When we got sliding door stock on the Euston Outer Suburban service c1988 the blokes who'd previously been on the platforms at Watford Junction blowing whistles etc were redeployed to the ticket barrier. At least one had reading skills at the level where he had to run his finger under the expiry date in a season to understand it...

New Wed 5 Jul 23 18:00   Ticket offices closing - zippy

>>don't have a scooby about customer service. Sooo true - see my comment elsewhere here about tickets being taken when a delay-repay was required. Recent local incident of a schoolgirl being fined despite being in school uniform and having her year pass card which showed she must be 14/15 and not 16 for having a child ticket. The touch screen ticket machines don't seem to work for me - seem to spend ages pressing the buttons but with no luck, though I have been told it's likely to be a vision thing in that my varifocals might mean that I'm not actually pressing in exactly the right spot. Ticket machines won't give the best advise re fares / discounts, alternative routes and general tips e.g. the staff at Orpington would often tell you to wait for the second London train as it would get to London sooner than the first, slow train. As an aside, the National Trust have removed their carpark attendants and replaced them with machines. Shame - numerous jobs gone. Last edited by: zippy on Wed 5 Jul 23 at 18:02

New Wed 5 Jul 23 18:32   Ticket offices closing - Zero

>> As an aside, the National Trust have removed their carpark attendants and replaced them with >> machines. Shame - numerous jobs gone. Not quite. they were volunteers, and have now been moved to visitor facing roles. Still unpaid tho. Mrs Zero drives the disability shuttle at a NT property, as well as doing visitor services. Last edited by: Zero on Wed 5 Jul 23 at 18:34

New Wed 5 Jul 23 19:49   Ticket offices closing - sooty123

If ticket office staff are redeloyed onto the concourse with means to issue tickets to >> those blundering around the station then all may be good. There must be some redundancies otherwise why bother? I guess they'll be replaced by a centralised helpdesk at some point. Although i read numbers of passengers are still down a third compared to pre covid, perhaps that's only peak times though.

New Wed 5 Jul 23 19:03   Ticket offices closing - CGNorwich

I guess it’s the rate of change many can’t cope with. My local Waitrose, having got rid of most of the tills and encouraging us to use self scanning is now planning to do away with the self scanners and getting us to use our mobile phones to do the scanning. I guess they will be getting us to stack the shelves next. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 5 Jul 23 at 19:04

New Wed 5 Jul 23 19:48   Ticket offices closing - Zero

>> I guess they will be getting us to stack >> the shelves next. Unlikely, their supply chain issues of late means that shelf stacking is a surplus role.

New Wed 5 Jul 23 21:04   Ticket offices closing - Rudedog

Yeap same with mine... very obvious that the state of the shelves matches when the youngsters are on breaks from college or uni.

New Wed 5 Jul 23 23:18   Ticket offices closing - smokie

I keep hearing that shoplifting is increasing massively in high street shops. Don't know about supermarkets but I don't see why they'd be exempt. Our local Boot has much less on display than it used to as a result, also a new clothes shop which has not long opened has been vocal about the problem. And this was always considered a "nice" area.

New Thu 6 Jul 23 17:04   Ticket offices closing - CGNorwich

I suspect the sparsely stocked shelves in Boots has more to do with an imminent closure than shoplifting. They are due to announce the closure of 300 branches in the coming months. One of the Norwich stores is looking similarly threadbare at the moment, obviously stock being run down. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 6 Jul 23 at 17:04

New Wed 5 Jul 23 12:59   Ticket offices closing - Duncan

>> 'They' are about to extend the tap-and-go carry-on out here as well (currently ends at >> Amersham). >> I think the tap and go is great. If I am going up to town, I buy an off-peak return to Waterloo and then use a credit card for all the journeys in London. It works well. If I lived in Surbiton, I could - look, don't start me going about "if I lived in Surbiton"! If I lived in Surbiton, I would have a Freedom Pass and there would be no charge for journeys in the GLA area. Last edited by: Duncan on Wed 5 Jul 23 at 13:01

New Wed 5 Jul 23 13:10   Ticket offices closing - sooty123

I use the train perhaps once or twice a year, so not ofren at all. The ticket offices I have seen seem to have covid notices on them and don't seem to have reopened. I just buy a ticket on the train.

New Wed 5 Jul 23 13:52   Ticket offices closing - bathtub tom

Let me get this right. If the ticket office staff go on strike, then travellers will have to buy tickets by another means, making the ticket office staff unnecessary? Turkeys voting for Christmas!

New Wed 5 Jul 23 14:29   Ticket offices closing - Duncan

Much the same when train drivers go on strike. Those who can work from home, do so on those dates. Old farts like me, who go up to town for high quality, good value food and drink at Wetherspoons simply choose a different day. Next effect? Little or no discomfort caused to the travelling public. Drivers lose a days money. Mick Lynch gets closer to getting the sack, if his members had any sense - which I somehow doubt.

New Wed 5 Jul 23 16:28   Ticket offices closing - Terry

That most ticket offices are to close is no surprise. Tough for the very few who (a) travel, and (b) are incapable of mastering a smartphone or online ticketing system. Whether overall costs are reduced depends on staff being redeployed/retrained to do something more useful. To suggest they should be kept open reinforces the view (in large part) that poor quality and expensive services are due to retention of outdated processes, working practices, failure to embrace new technologies etc. I agree with Duncan - strikes simply drive folk to find alternatives and reorganise their priorities. ASLEF may strike for 20 years - by then no one will want a train to travel on anyway.

New Fri 7 Jul 23 09:57   London underground - sooty123

www.itv.com/news/london/2023-07-06/london-underground-workers-to-strike-at-the-end-of-the-month-for-a-week More strikes. Seems as soon as one is solved another pops up. I believe teachers are on strike today as well.

New Fri 7 Jul 23 11:04   London underground - smokie

I suspect that's one reason why HMG has been somewhat reluctant to roll over for any of them.

New Fri 7 Jul 23 12:50   London underground - Bromptonaut

>> I suspect that's one reason why HMG has been somewhat reluctant to roll over for >> any of them. Ongoing industrial unrest, particularly if it can be made to look like Unions engaging in egregious practices, is food and drink for a Tory government approaching an Election.....

New Fri 7 Jul 23 13:24   London underground - CGNorwich

So all these strikes are fomented by by the Tories as cunning plot to get us to vote Conservative at the next election. What devious bounders these politicians are. There I was just thinking they were just incompetent.

New Fri 7 Jul 23 15:06   London underground - Bromptonaut

I never said fomented, nor did I mean it. But frankly the DfT's fingerprints are all over what the train operators are allowed to offer. Are you seriously saying they're not Left to their own devices the TOCs would have settled it months ago.

New Fri 7 Jul 23 15:16   London underground - sooty123

>> Left to their own devices the TOCs would have settled it months ago. I'd be surprised if the DfT weren't involved. It's a subsidised industry, the TOC don't have control of fares so they have no levers to pull. Unless you're suggesting the gov shouldn't be involved? Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 10 Jul 23 at 10:28

New Fri 7 Jul 23 15:25   London underground - Duncan

>> Ongoing industrial unrest, particularly if it can be made to look like Unions engaging in >> egregious practices, is food and drink for a Tory government approaching an Election..... Especially when it's the truth.

New Fri 7 Jul 23 16:08   London underground - Zero

>> Ongoing industrial unrest, particularly if it can be made to look like Unions engaging in >> egregious practices, What from A politically motivated union leadership? Heaven forfend. Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 10 Jul 23 at 10:28

New Fri 7 Jul 23 21:55   Scottish Drs - sooty123

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66136659 Strikes suspended, 17.5% over 2 years. Recommendation is to accept the offer. Perhaps gives an idea of an acceptable offer in the rest of the UK.

New Fri 7 Jul 23 23:57   Scottish Drs - Lygonos

Might attract some junior docs from rUK. Considering they cost £200k each to train that's great news for Scotland ;-)

New Sat 8 Jul 23 09:53   public sector strikes - sooty123

Itv reporting half a dozen cabinet ministers are pushing for their department to agree to implement the review boards recommendations, thought to be 5-6%. No10 & 11 thought to be against that large a payrise, appears to be a deadlock at the moment.

New Sat 8 Jul 23 10:34   public sector strikes - Rudedog

I'm sure I heard that radiographers are walking out for two days at the end of the month, it didn't say if it was by Trust or a national walk out.

New Sat 8 Jul 23 11:02   public sector strikes - Bromptonaut

>> Itv reporting half a dozen cabinet ministers are pushing for their department to agree to >> implement the review boards recommendations, thought to be 5-6%. No10 & 11 thought to be >> against that large a payrise, appears to be a deadlock at the moment. A whole six out of 22 have some sense of propriety and political nous? Ministers spent most of last year relying on the so called Independent Review Bodies awards as a reason why they were being wholly rational and reasonable in going no further. I even think some went so far as to point out that the system was such that the 2023 awards would take account of >10% + inflation and that people would need to wait. Could even the biggest friends of the Tory party in the media defend the level of utter hypocrisy that would be involved in doing anything short of paying IRB awards in full from April, or whatever other settlement date applies? Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 8 Jul 23 at 11:03

New Sat 8 Jul 23 11:37   public sector strikes - sooty123

I don't remember any of them saying they would automatically accept any amount IPRB came up with, more like let's wait and see.

New Sat 8 Jul 23 12:37   public sector strikes - Bromptonaut

>> I don't remember any of them saying they would automatically accept any amount IPRB came >> up with, more like let's wait and see. I'd be pretty sure that no Minister would have left a hostage to fortune on that scale. They were however, particularly in the case of NHS folks covered by review board recommendations, very forward indeed in leaning on the IRB. They said again and again that the fact that what was on the table was the result of a proper and well respected independent process (the independence point is, at best, arguable) meant the offer was unimpeachable and no way were they going further in 2022/3. They went on to say that the rate prices were going would be reflected in this year's IRB reports. No suggestion that, if they didn't like the cut of the IRB's jib for 2023/4, they'd override it.

New Sat 8 Jul 23 12:53   public sector strikes - sooty123

No suggestion that, if they didn't like the cut of the >> IRB's jib for 2023/4, they'd override it. >> Anyone that needs that spelling out must be walking round with eyes closed.

New Wed 12 Jul 23 11:21   public sector strikes - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/teacher-strike-nasuwt-union-raises-prospect-of-strikes-during-autumn-term-12919447 Teachers ballot for strike action. Appears that many public sector pay rises are dead locked in the cabinet with no agreement soon. I think the announcement may now be in the autumn as there's only a few days left before HoC goes into recess.

New Thu 13 Jul 23 01:15   public sector strikes - Terry

Independent Pay Review Bodies are so named because they are independent - although their conclusions are based upon the remit from government (affordability, recruitment, retention, inflation etc). They have the benefit of providing generally balanced recommendations. If the government ignore their recommendations the rationale for their existence is discredited. We then revert to "negotiations" as normal - unrealistic unaffordable claims from the unions and implausibly inadequate offers from the government. Pointless.

New Thu 13 Jul 23 12:38   public sector strikes - CGNorwich

But they don’t take into account the need to drive down inflation which is the overwhelming requirement of the government and which unless achieved will lead to even greater economic problems and hardship for many.

New Thu 13 Jul 23 12:44   public sector strikes - Bromptonaut

It looks as though they'll agree it but tell departments that they have to fund it, or most of it from current budgets. Governments of both/all stripes have done that for years. It can only last so long before it bites at quality of service. Social Care is the main example of how it goes wrong. People placed in Care Homes, or getting packages to stay in their own place are cross subsidised by those self funding. It's fast becoming the same with Child Care. The Govt funding for the placements it requires isn't enough to meet the actual cost. The charges to those with young, pre free places, kids pay through the nose. EDIT: Link to news item pulbished in last few mins: www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/13/rishi-sunak-agrees-to-public-sector-pay-rises-of-6-plus-without-raising-budgets Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 13 Jul 23 at 12:46

New Thu 13 Jul 23 13:07   public sector strikes - CGNorwich

So where is the money supposed to come from then? Both the Government and the Labour Party have said they would not borrow to fund pay rises. That just leaves an increase in taxes. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 13 Jul 23 at 13:08

New Thu 13 Jul 23 14:34   public sector strikes - Manatee

More taxes it is then. And maybe a party in government whose priority is something other than helping its clients to loot the public sector.       2

New Thu 13 Jul 23 15:03   public sector strikes - Terry

The Labour Party do not want to be seen as the party that raises taxes - they aspire to lots of good things without raising taxes or borrowing to fund current expenditure. A worthy aspiration but in my opinion undeliverable. As the UK has borrowed rather than repaid money to fund expenditure, for 28 of the last 30 years the concept of borrow to fund investment is fundamentally flawed - clearly there is no payback. It is nothing more than an empty slogan - a bit like "take back control". Taxes are at a historically high proportion of GDP. A hard debate is needed to understand if: - the nature of public services required means that tax increases are inevitable, or - services should be reduced to that affordable with some inevitably suffering, or - the public sector has gross embedded inefficiencies which need to be addressed, or - the way in which public services are delivered is corrupt Probably a bit of all of these.

New Thu 13 Jul 23 17:25   public sector strikes - CGNorwich

Politically suicidal for either party. No one votes for more taxes to pay other people’s pay increases. (O.K. I guess you would but you would be in a very small minority).

New Thu 13 Jul 23 20:14   public sector strikes - sooty123

>> Politically suicidal for either party. No one votes for more taxes to pay other people’s >> pay increases. (O.K. I guess you would but you would be in a very small >> minority). >> Of course they don't, nothing to stop a gov doing it after they've won a GE though.

New Thu 13 Jul 23 21:08   public sector strikes - CGNorwich

The money is needed now. . Any unbudgeted pay award is going to be paid for by cuts elsewhere. We are all going to suffer and we are all going to get a lot poorer whoever is in power

New Thu 13 Jul 23 22:00   public sector strikes - sooty123

>> The money is needed now. . What money, where is it needed now? Any unbudgeted pay award is going to be paid >> for by cuts elsewhere. We are all going to suffer and we are all going >> to get a lot poorer whoever is in power Poorer from the shortage of staff in the public services or lack of money or both? There's no easy answer.

New Fri 14 Jul 23 05:24   public sector strikes - martin aston

We are already poorer but many people haven’t woken up to that yet. Tax levels are also very high indeed and being dragged higher by frozen allowances. Whoever is in power it’s hard to see general prosperity recovering any time soon.       1

New Fri 14 Jul 23 15:03   public sector strikes - Manatee

The government and many households are afflicted by the same problem, which is an income (and trade in the case of government) deficit. You can't live on tick forever. Households becoming essentially insolvent because of a rise in mortgage rates to 6 or 7% should never happen on the scale that current reporting suggests it is, and the idea that it can and that government should bail them out is bonkers. However, lenders have clearly not been applying adequate affordability criteria for long time, and in my book they (and the BoE/Treasury) are primarily to blame. Both major parties have deregulated the financial sector recklessly and it will be wreaking havoc for decades. Remember when Building Societies were basically the mortgage market, and you were lucky to get 2.5 x the larger salary + 1 x the smaller? And you needed 10% deposit, never mind waiting for 3 months and ideally showing that you could save with them. Does anybody think that house prices would be where they are, had lending been more sensible? The major beneficiaries here have been the lenders, and of course 'investors'. Household debt is out of control. I don't need to see the figures, when 90% of new private car purchases are on PCP. Remember when there were hire purchase and credit sale controls on borrowing for cars and household goods, e.g. 20% deposits and 3 year repayment terms? This was of course partly undermined by the growth of credit cards, but should not IMO have been abandoned. One of the most attractive uses for capital (and leverage) has been consumer credit. If 'trickle down' ever worked, it has been replaced by consumer borrowing - the surpluses accumulated by the so-called wealth creators now come back to the real wealth creators by way of loans, not better wages. There will inevitably be a reset. It has been happening since before the last financial crisis to a degree but the sheer weight of easy money has deferred the pain for many - so far. Now we are hitting the buffers. Isn't it incredible, that the boomer generation could marry/shack up and buy a proper house in their early to mid 20's, run a car and raise children on average wages? Yet while GDP/capita has practically doubled in the last 50 years, that has been a pipedream for millennials? Throwing out the Conservatives won't fix most of this. But it might makes things fairer, over a period. Personally, I think the NHS is worth hanging on to, but it will IMO need some tweaks to the product if it is to remain affordable. The government line that they can't borrow to fund NHS pay rises that are still below inflation is risible, after they have borrowed and committed to borrowing recklessly for so much over the last few years.

New Fri 14 Jul 23 18:24   public sector strikes - CGNorwich

"The government line that they can't borrow to fund NHS pay rises that are still below inflation is risible, after they have borrowed and committed to borrowing recklessly for so much over the last few years." Government borrowing fell steadily between 2010 and 2019 and sharply rose as a result of the Covid crisis. It began to fall again and spiked once more during the energy crisis. Was helping people and businesses through these crises reckless? Funding pay increases by borrowing is a sure route to runaway inflation

New Fri 14 Jul 23 21:12   public sector strikes - Lygonos

Pity they increased pensions and benefits by 10.1% last year. Even bigger, and less productive cohort than public services ;-)

New Thu 13 Jul 23 11:21   public sector strikes - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-sunak-to-host-all-tory-mps-for-morale-boosting-barbecue-as-he-misses-second-pmqs-in-a-row-12593360?postid=6167334#liveblog-body Looks like the PM will now accept the pay review bodies decisions.

New Fri 14 Jul 23 21:20   public sector strikes - zippy

I see many university students are not getting their degrees graded or even issued in many cases due to industrial action by the markers. Given that the Universities will not issue degrees until they have been paid in full, I recommend that students affected sue the universities for their fees back, until they get their degrees marked or issued appropriately! ;-D

New Thu 20 Jul 23 13:10   public sector strikes - zippy

NHS consultants are out on strike today. Many at Miss Z's current hospital (she changes again in September / October) have given their juniors burner mobile numbers (ones that management don't have the numbers for) with instructions to call in case of major incidents.

New Thu 20 Jul 23 16:44   public sector strikes - Bobby

A tough read. lucygossage.com/my-reasons-for-striking/

New Thu 20 Jul 23 16:57   public sector strikes - CGNorwich

A bit unclear on this. How does demanding a 35% pay rise next solve those problems.

New Thu 20 Jul 23 17:31   public sector strikes - Bromptonaut

>> A bit unclear on this. How does demanding a 35% pay rise next solve those >> problems. What they say is that 35% is the spending power they've lost since around 2008. At that point salaries for Doctors were in their Pomp following a review; to get back there is a high bar. Nonetheless, on that background, naming 35% as start point is, at its least, explicable. Nobody actually expects 35% now, or even over a few (5?) years; it's an explanation. But the employer, HMG, then says nahh - 3% increase for last year, 22/3 and 6% for 23/4. We're imposing it like it or not. Sod off; no further negotiations. Not surprising if staff kick over the traces.

New Thu 20 Jul 23 17:57   public sector strikes - CGNorwich

Yes but the problems raised by the Doctor aren't going to be solved by more money in Consultant's pockets are they and going on strike is going to make a lot of those probelms significantly worse for some. The whole way we run our health service and how it is funded needs an open minded review with all options considered but unfortunately this seems impossible in this country.       1

New Thu 20 Jul 23 18:30   public sector strikes - Bromptonaut

>> Yes but the problems raised by the Doctor aren't going to be solved by more >> money in Consultant's pockets are they and going on strike is going to make a >> lot of those probelms significantly worse for some. Short term the significantly worse bit is right. Reality is as that article's author makes clear, pay that's sufficient to recruit/motivate/retain staff would help bit there are lots of other problems too. >> The whole way we run our health service and how it is funded 8< Government might not but have there not been academics etc, from differing perspectives, who have done/could do such a thing?

New Thu 20 Jul 23 19:10   public sector strikes - sooty123

> Short term the significantly worse bit is right. Reality is as that article's author makes >> clear, pay that's sufficient to recruit/motivate/retain staff would help bit there are lots of other >> problems too. >> I think that fair enough but muddying the waters with talk of MRI scanner shortage doesn't really help. No one thinks that if they were paid 35% more they'd still be on strike due to a shortage of MRI scanners. All that stuff is a separate issue. Legitimate or otherwise.

New Thu 20 Jul 23 18:24   public sector strikes - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> >> What they say is that 35% is the spending power they've lost since around 2008. >> At that point salaries for Doctors were in their Pomp following a review; to get >> back there is a high bar. >> >> Pretty much the same as for most people. We can't seem to get our head around the fact that economies go through good periods when living standards rise and bad periods when they fall. That has forever been the case, no matter which political system, party, or economic policy that has been in place. It is something no country in the world has been able to solve, probably because it is unsolvable. Belts just need to be tightened.

New Thu 20 Jul 23 19:08   public sector strikes - Duncan

>> >> Not surprising if staff kick over the traces. >> Well, maybe, maybe not. But if you are boracic, what is the point of taking more unpaid time off work?

New Thu 20 Jul 23 19:39   public sector strikes - Lygonos

NHS dentistry is already in the toilet, swirling round. Nothing stopping doctors going the same route. Maybe that's the Tory master plan.

New Thu 20 Jul 23 20:41   public sector strikes - Manatee

>> NHS dentistry is already in the toilet, swirling round. >> >> Nothing stopping doctors going the same route. >> >> Maybe that's the Tory master plan. >> >> Re facto, it is. It's already very broken and the alibi staffing plan does not include paying market rates. So what do they think will happen?

New Thu 20 Jul 23 21:02   public sector strikes - CGNorwich

I guess when you get down to it Doctors and Consultants are pretty much the same as everyone else. Basically it is all about money and how much you can screw out of your employer. I do wish that train drivers wouldn’t pretend that they are striking to preserve the railways and similarly that Consultants are taking their industrial action to preserve the NHS. A bit of honesty wouldn’t go amiss.       2

New Thu 20 Jul 23 21:26   public sector strikes - Lygonos

>> I guess when you get down to it Doctors and Consultants are pretty much the same as everyone else. Basically it is all about money and how much you can screw out of your employer. Bit more nuanced than that - after the Banks rekt the economy we accepted 0% and 1% pay rises, and then lacklustre rises without complaint, - unfortunately 15 years of being treated like mugs so bankers can have fat bonus and watching the Tories rape the country has used up all of the goodwill.       2

New Thu 20 Jul 23 20:48   public sector strikes - Terry

The country needs a very serious debate about healthcare. Honesty not the constant predictable rhetoric from media and politicians would be a good start. There is no hidden pot of money or magic money tree despite the political and media illusion that all could be solved by the wave of a chequebook. Spend more on the NHS and something needs to change - taxation, other public services, borrowing, etc. Or accept a sub-possible service - who is denied treatment. Pre pandemic about 10% had private health insurance. Due to extended waiting lists many more have been driven to use private healthcare mainly for elective procedure. The Tories have been in power for 31 of the last 44 years - were they intent on its abolition it would by now have happened. As most Tory voters have no private insurance and rely on the NHS it is simply implausible - LibDems would out-number them were it an explicit policy. This is not a defence of political management - fixing these things also needs the active input of NHS management, administration and healthcare staff - with little progress evident. There is no doubt in my mind that they could have managed it much better. Flaws evident for decades (eg: joined up social and health care) have been fixed by neither party. Instead we have debates about VAT on school fees which may raise £0-2bn and non-dom status which may raise £1-5bn. They are either rational policies or driven by the politics of envy. They are complete trivia against an NHS spend of £160bn this year.

New Thu 20 Jul 23 20:58   Public Sector Strikes - Fullchat

If Consultant pay were doubled do we think that would be the miracle cure of NHS ills? I suggest not. A hierarchical system has been allowed to developed whereby Consultants rule the roost and their private work has become even more lucrative. Its in their interests for the system not to work.

New Thu 20 Jul 23 20:58   public sector strikes - Lygonos

Can find a couple of billion (no doubt will end up more) for a tunnel past Stone'enge tho.

New Thu 20 Jul 23 21:01   public sector strikes - Manatee

You have one thing right. The present government wants to reduce tax. If we want Europ an levels of public services we will have to pay European levels of tax. That we current have the highest levels of tax see. In the UK only underlines that we have not paid nearly enough. Whoever said nobody would pay more tax for somebody else's pay rise misses the point. If people want their cancer cured and their roads fixed then those with the money, broadly speaking, will have to pay.

New Thu 20 Jul 23 21:54   public sector strikes - Bobby

Exactly, the same people who complain about lack of police, lack of dentists, lack of healthcare, lack of judicial system, potholes on road, education system etc etc are often the ones who complain of paying too much tax or have ways of avoiding paying tax. The claim there is no magic money tree etc is false - the total UK Govt income is vast - its when the choice of how to spend that falls down to individual politcians and their parties and their priorities. Whether it be HS2, tunnels under Stonehenge, PPE, Brexit disaster etc etc the money is there. Tories with their idealogy of low taxation by the very nature, means that all those services that rely on public funding will suffer as a consequence. And you know something, its going to get a lot worse. By all accounts the Tories are going to get kicked put at the next election, whenever that is. So between now and then they will be milking every penny to line their own pockets and set up their own individual directorships and future income streams between now and then and stuff the country in the process.       2

New Thu 20 Jul 23 22:02   public sector strikes - sooty123

Perhaps it would be better to say there's no un-allocated money spare. Enough are happy with lower/low taxes and occasionally muttering about poor public services. By and large the public are happier with lower taxes than higher ones. Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 20 Jul 23 at 22:03

New Thu 20 Jul 23 20:03   public sector strikes - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/nhs-strikes-what-is-happening-to-consultants-pay-12923389 Bit of data on Consultants pay.

New Mon 31 Jul 23 13:08   public sector strikes - sooty123

Teachers union agree on payrise. www.itv.com/news/2023-07-31/teachers-in-england-end-strikes-in-vote-to-accept-government-pay-rise-offer

New Thu 31 Aug 23 17:21   Joint NHS strike - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/junior-doctors-and-consultants-to-go-on-joint-strike-for-first-time-in-nhs-history-12951664 Junior Dr and Consultants plan to go on strike together. No signs of it ending yet.

New Thu 31 Aug 23 17:35   Joint NHS strike - CGNorwich

How considerate of them. I'm sure they will tell us they are actually doing it for our benefit

New Thu 31 Aug 23 20:50   Joint NHS strike - Bromptonaut

>> How considerate of them. I'm sure they will tell us they are actually doing it >> for our benefit At one level, if they're paid more only they benefit. OTOH if pay is genuinely not sufficient to recruit, motivate and retain staff the the numbers fall and we all lose. Another angle says that if the employer, in this case HMG, has walked all over you relying on your goodwill and commitment for years what are your options??

New Thu 31 Aug 23 21:46   Joint NHS strike - zippy

>> >> How considerate of them. I'm sure they will tell us they are actually doing >> it for our benefit I would be upset if my pay went down by 26.1% in real terms over the last 10 years. I work for a bank and whilst my pay hasn’t kept up with inflation, it’s nowhere near as bad as the doctors’ deal.

New Thu 31 Aug 23 21:50   Joint NHS strike - CGNorwich

"What are your options??" 1 Do the job. 2 Take that job in Australia or wherever we are told the the grass is so much greener. The Junior doctors have been offered a settlement in accordance with the recommendation of their independant pay review body. . The Consultants are hardly on the breadline. Stop inflicting pain and suffering on your patients.

New Thu 31 Aug 23 22:02   Joint NHS strike - Lygonos

Not how it works, sorry. If you want a private health service it is available right now via BUPA etc.

New Thu 31 Aug 23 22:28   Joint NHS strike - CGNorwich

No one will win by these strikes. Patients will be caused yet more pain and suffering. The status of Doctors is diminished in the eyes of the public who see they they have no more compunction about inflicting pain upon the public to achieve their end that do the train drivers etc. "If you want a private health service it is available right now via BUPA etc." Andthat is providing a very nice income stream for some of those very NHS consultants who are going on strike.       1

New Thu 31 Aug 23 22:29   Joint NHS strike - Lygonos

>>And that is providing a very nice income stream for some of those very NHS consultants who are going on strike And for dentists who have bogged off from the NHS due to chronic underfunding.

New Thu 31 Aug 23 23:56   Joint NHS strike - smokie

There was a dentist in my circle of friends four or five years ago and his lifestyle gave no indication of being underfunded!! The 26% figure has come under some scrutiny in at least two places I know of, and both suggested it was quite overstated.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 00:23   Joint NHS strike - Lygonos

>>There was a dentist in my circle of friends four or five years ago and his lifestyle gave no indication of being underfunded!! Good luck finding an NHS dentist if you move to a new area. www.bbc.co.uk/search?q=nhs+dentist&d=news_ps

New Thu 31 Aug 23 23:39   Joint NHS strike - Bobby

Not in this publics eyes. Maybe in those whose viewpoints and decisions are directed by the right wing press it is?

New Thu 31 Aug 23 22:11   Joint NHS strike - Bromptonaut

>> Stop inflicting pain and suffering on your patients. That of course, mutatis mutandis, is the employer's line since time immemorial So, in the UK NHS, unless you're willing (and able) to buzz off abroad you just roll over? Not my trade but if it were I'd be saying - not me sunshine and out on strike.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 00:32   Joint NHS strike - zippy

>>2 Take that job in Australia or wherever we are told the the grass is so much greener. Miss Z did her elective in New Zealand in 2015 /16. (Cost me a small fortune.). It was the end of her 3rd year. They still send her letters asking her to go back. Some personal, from the doctors she was training under. The letters have found their way to our new address (correctly addressed) despite the fact that we didn't tell them. She loved it there, but realises the grass isn't always greener. She's a junior doctor. Still training, but has passed her surgeons exams. I can't recall her exact grade, but she's a registrar, responsible for her own training as well as training and managing a small team. She undertakes her own surgery and I briefly mentioned an incident recently where she had to cut a man open in the ward to save his life - reviewed by a couple of consultants who both agreed it was the right thing to do. She also HAS to move departments every 6 months and hospitals every year, which often means moving home. She has done some private work, when asked to assist a consultant. Obviously in her own time and she does it on her days off. She doesn't like it because when things go wrong, they send the patient to the NHS to sort out. Recently, she had one of her core trainee doctors take a couple of days off at short notice, apparently the trainee said they were doing a health care assistants shift for an employment agency. The hourly rate was more than Miss Z makes!

New Fri 1 Sep 23 11:15   Joint NHS strike - Manatee

"The average FTSE 100 CEO received £3.91m in 2022, up from £3.38m in 2021, according to the latest research. The 16% rise in executive pay comes at a time of increasing economic difficulty in many households in the UK, and widens the gap between the lowest paid workers and executives in UK public companies." Sums up what the establishment and its party are all about. And if we don't like it we can leave the country? Have I got that right? Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 1 Sep 23 at 11:17

New Fri 1 Sep 23 12:33   Joint NHS strike - smokie

It's pretty indefensible but worth reiterating that that is only the top 100 companies out of the thousands in the UK.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 14:28   Joint NHS strike - Manatee

>> It's pretty indefensible but worth reiterating that that is only the top 100 companies out >> of the thousands in the UK. I had no intuition as to the proportion of the UK stock exchange market cap vs. the FTSE makes up, but as near as I can make out the top 100 accounts for over 50% (c. £2trillion) of the market's total of around £3.5trillion.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 15:16   Joint NHS strike - Bromptonaut

>> It's pretty indefensible but worth reiterating that that is only the top 100 companies out >> of the thousands in the UK. Are the stats radically different outwith the FTSE100? I don't know but somehow I doubt it.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 15:39   Joint NHS strike - smokie

I don't know either but the FTSE companies are the premier companies in the country and I doubt that their executive pay structure and growth is fully reflected across the rest of UK businesses. I suspect there are many more companies gone bust that there are companies in the FTSE 100. Probably leaving some of the CEOs somewhat worse off

New Fri 1 Sep 23 15:45   Joint NHS strike - Manatee

I used it illustratively. They are intensely relaxed about people being very well paid as long as it isn't the mass of people who do the work. There's something wrong when GDP per capita has risen nearly 100% since 1977 when, earning £2,200 per year, I bought a 3 bed semi for £7,500. Just over 3 x my wages. I was 24. Late gen Zers now are generally unable to get near to that. The house I bought then would now sell for c. £250,000, probably 10 x the median wage in the area (Elland, W. Yorkshire). Clearly a housing shortage is a factor but I think the main problem is lending. Banks have, for practical purposes, an infinite supply of money to lend and because the market is driven by loans and what people can borrow, our children and grandchildren will have a much lower standard of living than we did - far more of their money will be going to the owners of capital. This is how trickle down works, not by sharing, but by renting capital to wage earners.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 15:50   Joint NHS strike - sooty123

Clearly a housing shortage is a factor but I think the main problem is lending. > I think it's the former, with more people chasing after fewer houses they are bound to want to borrow more. The cause is an imbalance between numbers of house buyers and numbers of houses.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 15:22   Joint NHS strike - CGNorwich

"Sums up what the establishment and its party are all about. And if we don't like it we can leave the country? Have I got that right?" No, you haven't 1 I very much think that most doctors and especially consultants are actually part of "the Establishment" . I doubt that many consultants vote Labour. 2. If you want to make lots of money you go into business and not the medical profession. 3. CEO who can successfully run a FTSE 100 company are rare beasts. The law of supply and demand applies. Might not be "fair" whatever that is but that's how the world works. 4. The wage increases for those 100 CEOs cost thier companies cost their companies £51 million pounds. The Junior doctors demands for a 35% pay increase would cost the country £2 Billion pounds. It is silly to compare the two. 5. I did not say " if we don't like it we can leave the country" I was answering the question as to what options the Doctors have. They clearly have two as do all workers. They can take what is on offer or they seek work elsewhere. Australia is often cited by doctors when comparing pay and conditions perhaps because it has a shared public/private model for health care, a method of funding that is decried by many in the medical profession here.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 15:53   Joint NHS strike - sooty123

. Australia is often cited by doctors when comparing pay and conditions perhaps >> because it has a shared public/private model for health care, a method of funding that >> is decried by many in the medical profession here. Indeed it seems for many Australia has a good healthcare system for patients and staff but only for those in Australia. Its a no no for here.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 16:01   Joint NHS strike - Manatee

The point was not that they are paid a lot but that they on average got a 16% pay rise. The FTSE 100 CEO I worked for 20 years ago was on about £400k, plus options. His realistic expectation was about £1m. We all know how FTSE100 CEO's and CFO's salaries are set, by remuneration committees who 'benchmark'. The market you refer to is like the one for electricity, set by the highest bid price, except that their wages rarely go down. We are all being robbed, systematically. And 36% of us are turkeys prepared to vote for another 5 years of Christmases.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 16:38   Joint NHS strike - Duncan

>> We are all being robbed, systematically. And 36% of us are turkeys prepared to vote >> for another 5 years of Christmases. >> Is that right? Why do you, yes you, the great British electorate keep voting for someone, or some party, that you don't want? You have been doing it since 2010 (is it?).

New Fri 1 Sep 23 17:04   Joint NHS strike - Terry

There are 20 premier league clubs with a total of ~550 players - about 27 per team. The average wage of a premier league footballer is apparently about £60k per week - £3m pa. They clearly have a real talent to kick a ball. But why do we continually whinge about the pay those in positions of real power and responsibility - politicians, chief executives, senior civil servants etc. I want to attract the very best people to those roles in society which have by far the largest impact on on our lives. By comparison the efforts of footballers (or other highly paid sports folk) entertainers, actors, etc etc are inconsequential.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 18:11   Joint NHS strike - Manatee

I want to attract the very best people to those roles in society which have by far the largest impact on on our lives. By comparison the efforts of footballers (or other highly paid sports folk) entertainers, actors, etc etc are inconsequential. That's a very good argument for paying them £5m a year. Exactly what you'd do if you wanted to attract the most venal. I don't say they all are of course, I know a few and some are very good. But they all know when to get out.

New Sat 2 Sep 23 17:29   Joint NHS strike - Terry

>> That's a very good argument for paying them £5m a year. >> >> Exactly what you'd do if you wanted to attract the most venal. I don't say >> they all are of course, I know a few and some are very good. But >> they all know when to get out. I'm not sure I understand the logic for paying the inconsequential (footballers) more - why is it they engender little or no public antagonism despite their socially unacceptably high incomes. To attract the best people into politics (competent, honest, hard-working, talented etc) rewards need to be sufficiently high. Salaries of ministers and the PM sit around that which an NHS consultant gets with some private work, or senior civil servants get paid. Bluntly money is not a reason to enter politics, but lack of it could be a real dis-incentive. Initial involvement seems to be associated with righting wrongs, serving their community, even arrogance their particular skills and knowledge are of value. The truly venal don't enter politics - they seek to corrupt the political process. That politics corrupts politicians is probably true for both left and right - it is just that the right has had more practice/ opportunity for the last 13 years!

New Fri 1 Sep 23 19:37   Joint NHS strike - Robin O'Reliant

>> There are 20 premier league clubs with a total of ~550 players - about 27 >> per team. >> >> The average wage of a premier league footballer is apparently about £60k per week - >> £3m pa. >> >> But if the big football clubs did not pay their star players those big salaries (Often with money poured in by overseas owners), how would that help doctors and nurses?

New Fri 1 Sep 23 21:51   Joint NHS strike - Kevin

>But if the big football clubs did not pay their star players those big >salaries... The players might have gone into medicine instead?

New Fri 1 Sep 23 22:09   Joint NHS strike - tyrednemotional

...jeez, do you want the likes of Andy Carroll doing your heart bypass...? (or even your ingrowing toenail)

New Fri 1 Sep 23 17:31   Joint NHS strike - sooty123

> Why do you, yes you, the great British electorate keep voting for someone, or some >> party, that you don't want? You have been doing it since 2010 (is it?). >> People like to decide what's important to them rather than what others think they ought to be concerned about. People can be funny like that.

New Fri 1 Sep 23 20:58   Joint NHS strike - Fursty Ferret

Not related to the doctors' strike but I did find the outrage from train staff who were told that strikers would not receive a discretionary bonus this year slightly amusing.

New Sat 2 Sep 23 07:46   Joint NHS strike - Manatee

Seems a bit mean, given the TOCs get paid whether the trains run or not.

New Sat 2 Sep 23 17:56   Joint NHS strike - Terry

The TOCs apparently get money to compensate for the lack of fare income on strike days. One version of reality is that the UK taxpayer is funding resistance to the strikes and ensuring the TOCs to avoid settling the dispute in an inflationary way. Network rail have also secured £27.5m £5.5m pa) of funding for railway infrastructure over the next 5 years. I believe HS2 is on top of this. All this seems a shambolic mess - it is unclear who is pulling the strings. There will be those who see re-nationalisation of the whole rail industry as the solution - probably with the taxpayer providing substantial subsidies. I don't! The alternative is to be very clear that the rail network must have a coherent and feasible plan for major improvement with the medium term intent to withdraw all subsidies. The only real argument made for train transport is environmental - longer term green energy generation and EVs will likely ensure even this benefit is illusory. That the rail workers got no bonus is absolutely right. To pay anything would be an insult to the taxpayer for the disruption and inconvenience caused by the strikes.       1

New Sat 2 Sep 23 19:50   Joint NHS strike - Manatee

My comment was TIIC. Of course nationalisation is the answer. We are on risk for most of it already. Have you not noticed? A classic case of privatise profits, nationalise losses.

New Sat 2 Sep 23 20:16   Joint NHS strike - legacylad

I caught the A3 Flyer bus from LBA to Shipley this AM, then a train home. No Northern trains yesterday, but was hoping for a limited service today. There was an hourly Metro train Leeds > Skipton, and the Shipley station ticket office was closed. A 50 minute wait. The guard/ conductor walked through my busy carriage, checked no tickets and when I asked to buy a single ticket he ignored me. Words were exchanged. At Skipton, no trains to Carlisle were running today ( so far as I could tell) and when I tried to buy a ticket in order to get through the security barriers I was ushered through with a surly shrug of the shoulders. No charge. No interest in taking the money I offered. So I walked to the bus station and returned home by that means. Shambles...what a pair of ignoramus. Last edited by: legacylad on Sat 2 Sep 23 at 20:18

New Sun 3 Sep 23 17:19   Joint NHS strike - zippy

>> Shambles...what a pair of ignoramus. >> There’s no need for rudeness on their part. I think I read somewhere that when the railway staff strike in Japan, they still turn up for work and run a full service. They just don’t sell tickets so the railway companies lose money by the passengers still get to where they’re supposed to get to!

New Sun 3 Sep 23 01:10   Joint NHS strike - Lygonos

I guess they found half a billion down the side of the sofa. I thought there was no money :-) www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-66697658

New Sun 3 Sep 23 21:51   Joint NHS strike - Fullchat

Is this where they throw millions at the foreign owners who then close down the facility or parts of it? Not unlike the steelworks in Scunny.

New Sun 24 Sep 23 21:46   Armed met police - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/chris-kaba-ministry-of-defence-offers-support-to-met-police-as-armed-police-officers-hand-in-their-weapons-12969202 Looks like another group can be added to the list. Handed in their weapons and back to normal duties. Some reports suggest 100 have done so.

New Sun 24 Sep 23 22:21   Armed met police - CGNorwich

What exactly do they want? Its a tricky one isn't it. Obviously on one hand it can be so easy to make the wrong call but on the other hand any killing has to be lawful. Not a job many would want to take

New Sun 24 Sep 23 22:55   Armed Met Police - Fullchat

Its the process that has rightly upset the AFOs. Everyone accepts rightly that the incident will be thoroughly investigated and justification for shooting established. However what is disturbing is that it seems that on more than one occasion the IOPC and CPS are running scared of making a decision that the Officers have acted lawfully, preferring the matter to be heard before a jury. for fear of being accused of being biased. It seems that there are also racial implications within the decision making process. What this does is unnecessarily drag out the stress for the Officers and their families for years. It would seem in this case even the family backed off their condemnation and accusations when they were shown the Body Worn Video recorded by the Officer. Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 24 Sep 23 at 22:57

New Mon 25 Sep 23 09:53   Armed Met Police - Bobby

And the Home Secretary has chipped in her opinion into a live legal process…..

New Mon 25 Sep 23 11:10   Armed Met Police - zippy

There's an article from a solicitor who takes actions against the police and recounts this case. Slightly built 60 year old man with heart condition was driving home and his car broke down. Police pulled up and wanted to breathalyse him. No accident and no suspicion of drunk driving and the man's medication meant that he couldn't drink and he wanted to prove this to the officer. Instead of listening the officer Pava sprayed the man. Police officer said he wanted to Taser the man - for just talking back, but was too close. Went to police complaint who agreed the police officer was in the wrong but there was no punishment given. If the officer had a gun he probably would've wanted to shoot the man! It's double standards! If the man had hit the policeman, he would be in court. If a member of thee public kills somebody in self defence it is very likely they would have to go to court. You can't have police killing people and not wanting a full review, even extending to court where appropriate. They've got off enough times. To name a small sample where police "got off": See Ian Tomlinson, Harry Stanley, Anthony Grainger and James Ashley - a case so bad that the Home Secretary sacked the Chief Constable. Ashley was an unarmed naked man, in bed, shot by two detectives. Astonishingly evidence went missing and the officers were acquitted but being a local case - this stank. Last edited by: zippy on Mon 25 Sep 23 at 11:10

New Mon 25 Sep 23 12:25   Armed Met Police - sooty123

> You can't have police killing people and not wanting a full review, even extending to >> court where appropriate. They've got off enough times. >> My impression isn't that there should be no review, more that the Senior Officers in the Met aren't interested in them when it goes wrong. They feel there is no support from the Chiefs. I believe this is a reaction to that rather than the CPS's decision on it's own.

New Mon 25 Sep 23 13:54   Armed Met Police - CGNorwich

Do you have a reliable corroborated account of this story?

New Mon 25 Sep 23 14:47   Armed Met Police - Bromptonaut

>> Do you have a reliable corroborated account of this story? It's in Iain Gould's blog. I'm struggling to link as my tablet is playing up but if you go to iaingould.co.uk you'll find it.

New Mon 25 Sep 23 17:03   Armed Met Police - sooty123

Appears some/enough have gone back to firearms duties that they no longer require assistance from the MoD. That ended quicker than I thought, I wonder if thats the end of it though?

New Mon 25 Sep 23 14:11   Armed Met Police - Fullchat

You missed out Demenzies.

New Mon 25 Sep 23 14:22   Armed Met Police - zippy

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_James_Ashley This is fairly accurate. I went to school with the local CPS solicitor and have have a regular pint with him. His suspected (allegedly - so not to liable anyone) that several police officers involved were corrupt and thought that Ashely was selling on their turf. The lies re him being wanted for murder / stabbings were designed to make everyone "jumpy" and lead to the right conclusion. Last edited by: zippy on Mon 25 Sep 23 at 14:26

New Mon 25 Sep 23 14:47   Armed Met Police - Lygonos

>>His suspected (allegedly - so not to liable anyone) that several police officers involved were corrupt and thought that Ashely was selling on their turf. Hmm. If they were meaning to kill him I would have thought more than one shot would have been fired. Sounds like a tall tale to me.

New Mon 25 Sep 23 21:39   Armed Met Police - CGNorwich

"Sounds like a tall tale to me" Typical "bloke down the pub tale"

New Tue 5 Dec 23 17:07   BMA reject offer - smokie

"The British Medical Association (BMA) union said the proposal was worth an extra 3% on average this year. This is on top of an 8.8% rise already given." www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67626218 I feel they are being a bit greedy. Yes I know they want their old rates reinstated but I'd say near-12% isn't to be sniffed at, particularly as inflation is easing rather than going up. The Beeb did an interesting reality check on doctor salaries www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66360656 and I also think I heard a radio broadcast (maybe Private Eye podcast?) with similar conclusions.

New Tue 5 Dec 23 18:32   BMA reject offer - sooty123

I think the Consultants offer looks more likely to be accepted. A couple of the train union issues have been resolved, although I think the train drivers one is still ongoing.

New Tue 5 Dec 23 22:05   BMA reject offer - Bobby

As an aside, missus works as a ward manager in a local hospice. Last two years, the annual pay rises have finally came through, one in March and the following year in December. Both backdated to the April. But doing calculations I have realised that the hospice has not backdated ee or er pension contributions. Staff got all their backdated pay in one month but they did not pay any pension contribution on the backdated amount. The hospice has made quite a saving, 6% I guess, over this period by delaying these pay rises. I am raging about it but my missus doesn’t want to rock the boat.

New Tue 5 Dec 23 22:43   BMA reject offer - bathtub tom

I was in a similar situation with a council pay rise, backdated a couple of years. Crunched the numbers and realised they'd stopped tax where they shouldn't have done. Took a lot of fighting, with them even admitting it was wrong. Got to the doors of an industrial tribunal, where they folded. I then resigned!

New Mon 15 Jan 24 14:00   Strikes - Volume 3 - Duncan

ASLEF are calling a new round of strikes and are also banning overtime. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67978562 I am sure I have asked this question before, but someone must have done the sums and worked out how much this is costing the average train driver on an average week? Can they not see the wood for the trees? (Other popular and irrelevant expressions are available.)

New Mon 15 Jan 24 14:05   Strikes - Volume 3 - Bromptonaut

>> I am sure I have asked this question before, but someone must have done the >> sums and worked out how much this is costing the average train driver on an >> average week? It's not free of cost for the employer either. It's settleable with movement on both sides. Who is really running the TOC's?

New Thu 18 Jan 24 11:32   Strikes - Volume 3 - Lygonos

Train driver overtime is in the 40% tax bracket. They've done the sums.