Non-motoring > The Ukraine - Volume 9
Thread Author: VxFan	Replies: 163

New Thu 15 Jun 23 11:09   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - VxFan

Continuing discussion. 661913 Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 15 Jun 23 at 11:09 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 15 Jun 23 08:06   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

A video showing an example of the state of Russian morale. If you're sensitive to soldier's language, it's not for you. twitter.com/DevanaUkraine/status/1669046699480735749 Although constructed by Ukrainian military for propoganda, it gives an idea of the health and age of Russian conscripts. Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 15 Jun 23 at 11:11 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 Jun 23 12:10   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - henry k

I have read that Russian soldiers have been badly affected by Cholera due to using water from the burst dam event. Other diseases are expected from the same source. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 21 Jun 23 21:21   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

I suspect that there may soon be one or two cases of dysentery in Moscow. Last week Ukraine showed off a locally designed and manufactured UAV with a range of 1000km and a payload of 75kg. Moscow is only ~750km from Kiev as the drone flies. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Jun 23 22:26    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1672348230313553920 Seems it may have come to a head between the PMC and the Russian army. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Jun 23 23:14    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Wagner were hit from behind by helicopter and missile strikes last night. Prighozin was there and has accused Shoigu of planning the attack. He has denied that he was plotting a military coup after he vowed to 'restore justice' in Russia. Security forces in Moscow and Rostov are on high alert and reserves have been called up as part of what they've called Operation Fortress to secure Govt. buildings and facilities. There are pictures of military on the streets of Moscow. A case of 'Incitement to Armed Insurrection' has been opened against Prighozin and the FSB have ordered his arrest. Rats in a sack. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Jun 23 23:24    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

It appears the government were aware of this probability as they've already put troops on the street and check points. An emergency announcement is due soon on Russian tv. The risky life of being a dictator. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Jun 23 23:33    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Riot police and National Guard Rapid Reaction squads now put on alert in Moscow with orders to shoot anyone who shows 'aggression' towards them. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 05:32    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Duncan

The Beeb. www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-66006142 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 06:48    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

First reports indicate the musicians have left rostov and are now halfway to Moscow having been attacked by the Russian airforce en route. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 12:15    Ukraine - Volume 9 - zippy

I suspect the mercenaries wont stand a chance. If they did, you might find support for Russia changing - for fear of letting mercenaries getting control of nuclear weapons. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 15:32    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

A partisan group in Russia has reported that their contact in Wagner has told them that Wagner intends to take over a nuclear weapons facility in Borysoglibsk near Voronezh. Russian military unlikely to be able to put up much resistance because they're all on vacation in Ukraine. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 15:50    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Unsubstantiated but: A Wagner column of 400 vehicles and ~4000 troops on the M4 only 300km from Moscow. That's more than the special forces, conscripts and trained cops available near Moscow. Every flight out of Moscow is fully booked at prices 20x normal fare. Reports that Putin has legged it to his place at Valdai and the rest of the Kremlin elite are disappearing. Ukrainian military reporting signs of Russian troops leaving their positions. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 17:31    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

Some early reports that wagner are only 65 miles from moscow. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 18:21    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

They are going to need some of the Moscow military district commanders to come on side. They might, the days of the politburo cliques with military control have long gone, and putin has done much to keep it that way, someone with military clout may try to take charge. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 19:28    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

Looks like it's all over. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 19:38    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

The ease with which an invading force can go bowling up the M1 halfway to Moscow with no interference , is a bit of a shocker Last edited by: Zero on Sat 24 Jun 23 at 19:38 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 21:16    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

Not overly, interior/rosguardia troops have had run down to the point they are combat ineffective. Prizgonin is popular with rank and file, he shapes himself as a man of the people. Plenty of units stood aside. There's also a left field school of thought that this was all planned. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 21:47    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> Prizgonin is popular with rank and file, he shapes himself as a man of the >> people. >> If I were he I wouldn't go standing too close to any hotel windows. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 23:13    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

>> If I were he I wouldn't go standing too close to any hotel windows. Think he is in line for a Novichuck car door handle. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 12:41    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

>> Riot police and National Guard Rapid Reaction squads now put on alert in Moscow with >> orders to shoot anyone who shows 'aggression' towards them. Putin should have done some research. Uncannily accurate, this is chapter 16 in Red Storm Rising by Tom Clancy. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 16:15    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Lygonos

Some chatter that Lukashenko has already left Belarus. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Jun 23 16:34    Ukraine - Volume 9 - tyrednemotional

...it's difficult to believe that a mercenary group with declared numbers of 25,000 can overthrow the regime by itself. One thing that sort of drifted by on the BBC reporting, however, was an (unverified) video of Prigozhin meeting with the Russian Deputy Defence Minister and the Russian Deputy Chief of Military Intelligence in Rostov this morning. That can be read in oh so many ways, but it might just mean that reassurances of deeper support have been given (bypassing the High Command). It might explain why what might otherwise be seen as a fairly foolhardy move has been made. I was amused by the Ukrainian comment along the lines of "Prior to 2022 Russia was seen as having the second most powerful army in the World; post-2022 it was seen as having the second most powerful army in Ukraine; today it is seen as having the second most powerful army in Russia!" Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 25 Jun 23 01:11    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Terry

We really don't have a clue whether reports are true. - has the Wagner group really called off the advance? - has Putin come to an accommodation with Wagner - or just playing for time? - is Belarus a real player - or just muddying the waters - will the army defend Putin or some swap sides/retreat - what military capability really exists to defend Moscow - is the advance (apparently) stalled, resumes - what do Putins inner circle think - will they turn on him This is all short term stuff - longer term (next week) who knows??? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 12 Jul 23 16:28    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/uk-not-an-amazon-delivery-service-for-weapons-to-ukraine-says-defence-secretary-ben-wallace-12919765 A little bit of friction from the defence secretary over weapon requests. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 12 Jul 23 16:54    Ukraine - Volume 9 - tyrednemotional

...he's miffed because he's not going to be the next NATO General Secretary... ;-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 19 Jul 23 10:32    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

kyivindependent.com/investigation-eu-inability-to-ramp-up-production-behind-acute-ammunition-shortages-in-ukraine/ For all the warm words, members states seem to be unable/unwilling/reduced to squabbling over increasing ammunition production for ukr. Seems a bit like the EU vaccine efforts. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 19 Jul 23 10:39    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Terry

If ammunition supplies are so limited within NATO that they are unable to provide Ukraine what they need, I would be hugely concerned about the ability to resist a wider Russian offensive. The only positive is that Russia may be running equally short of ammunition - perhaps the end of the war is in sight. Troops will be reduced to throwing stones at each other and name calling. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 19 Jul 23 10:52    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

The only positive is that Russia may be running equally short of ammunition - There doesn't appear to be evidence of widespread shortages, localised yes but not theatre wide. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 9 Aug 23 08:24    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1689006806067200000.html Appears the Russians may be increasingly short of manpower. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 28 Aug 23 07:55    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

www.channel4.com/news/ukraine-claims-break-through-of-most-difficult-russian-defences Channel 4 claiming a breakthrough by Ukr. If they can get the Main Supply Routes under fire from artillery it will make it very difficult to keep Russian troops supplied through the winter. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 30 Aug 23 15:21    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Lygonos

There's a couple of commentators on www.speakev.com (in the off-topic section of course) who seem to be 4-5 days ahead of major media outlets for the situation in Ukraine. Apparently if they reach Tokmak the Kerch bridge is then in range of Himars and Crimea will become increasingly difficult for Russia to hold. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 30 Aug 23 21:22    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

It may be in range if they get to Tokmak, but the Ukr are only a third of the way there from their start lines. If they can target the Crimean bridges and the land bridge large parts of occupied Ukr will be difficult to hold on to. Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 30 Aug 23 at 21:23 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 31 Aug 23 13:10    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Lygonos

They have had 3 defensive lines to breach - once through that I suspect Russian morale will crumble rapidly. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 31 Aug 23 14:58    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

The Ukr are through the first in quite a few areas, and there's some evidence they are have opened a 4 mile breach in the second line of defence. How much the Russians have to defend the third line is unclear, so we may find out quite soon. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Sep 23 20:29    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/02/everything-is-ahead-of-us-ukraine-breaks-russias-first-line-of-defence-in-stronghold Interview with the Ukrainian general involved with retaking the South of Ukraine. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 16 Sep 23 15:29    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

news.yahoo.com/look-polands-fast-expanding-military-084500942.html?guccounter=1 Anyone would think the Poles are a bit nervous. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 16 Sep 23 16:48    Ukraine - Volume 9 - smokie

What a shame that one absolute disgrace of a human can cause so much wasteful expenditure and concern, and by countries that really could do with spending on bettering themselves instead of defending themselves. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 16 Sep 23 17:41    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

If its not him, it'll be the my next one. None of the ruling class think much of Eastern European independence. This is a long term thing. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 16 Sep 23 19:48    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

European country boundaries, in general, have never been fully defined or maintained throughout history. Its been in a state of constant flux for centuries. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 22 Sep 23 21:51    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

x.com/Militarylandnet/status/1705301475209982013?t=1kTCFnmGndeq2-SQ6DhZ0Q&s=08 Ukraine making full use of uk donated storm shadow. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 23 Sep 23 11:08    Ukraine - Volume 9 - zippy

Not sure that I'd be standing around watching that. It's war and one might expect other ordinance to come over and it might not be so accurate. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 23 Sep 23 16:31    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

Your attitude to risk changes if under bombardment often. You may as well move straight into one as much as standing still. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 23 Sep 23 18:07    Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Didn't want to miss their 10 seconds of fame on Xitter. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 2 Oct 23 13:54   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Oops. The Moscow City Council website has published a list of all buildings and facilities that are to be excluded from power cuts if they are ever necessary. Along with the usual government buildings, security and military facilities there's a stack of nondescript warehouses, private residences and unoccupied flats and apartments. I guess the GRU and FSB will be looking for new premises before unexpected visitors drop in. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 6 Oct 23 19:43   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Aid contibutions to Ukraine. edition.cnn.com/2023/10/05/world/ukraine-money-military-aid-intl-dg Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 4 Nov 23 14:10   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/status/1720547262961422503 Good news for Russia, less so for Ukraine. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 4 Nov 23 16:08   Ukraine - Volume 9 - smokie

That's more than a shame. I really hope that they can stretch their budgets some more. Probably due to a lack of understanding on my part, and not making any comment about the rights or wrongs of it, I don't really get why Israel/Palestine is taking so much oxygen when we have a serious war involving a major power, which I'd have thought is more likely to directly affect us, more or less on our doorsteps. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 5 Nov 23 00:45   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Bobby

All about timescales isn’t it. Folk are bored about Ukraine/Russia. Folk have went from condemning the invasion to looking further and further into an Ukraine and their President and don’t see someone squeaky clean. So their attention goes elsewhere. Strictly is on, Big Brother is on and no one knows who is replacing Holly and Phil. I know I am being slightly facetious but also probably very realistic. If Israel/ Palestine is still going on in a few months it will be pretty much the same. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 5 Nov 23 01:49   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Terry

Media attention span even for a major story is measured in minutes when a new story emerges. A little like a small child where a favourite toy is forgotten within minutes of a new distraction. The BBC Ukraine website page illustrates the point - one article 3 hours old, 3 others 3-5 days old, the rest up to several weeks. Not a criticism of the BBC but a reflection of the media generally. A personal view - it would be incredibly short sighted for US/ NATO to do other than actively support Ukraine - it sends a very clear message that: (a) might is right, thuggery and abuse of human rights wins, (b) the US is no longer a world super-power - but heading towards irrelevancy (c) where else in Europe may next be targeted by Russia Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 5 Nov 23 11:46   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

>> That's more than a shame. I really hope that they can stretch their budgets some >> more. I think it shows how depend NATO is on the US. Without them European NATO cannot hope to bridge that gap, I don't think that's likely to change any time soon. >> Probably due to a lack of understanding on my part, and not making any comment >> about the rights or wrongs of it, I don't really get why Israel/Palestine is taking >> so much oxygen when we have a serious war involving a major power, which I'd >> have thought is more likely to directly affect us, more or less on our doorsteps. >> Wars in the ME always get plenty of coverage, mainly due to historically reasons. It's also captured the attention of the media with the protests in the UK. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 5 Nov 23 13:17   Ukraine - Volume 9 - zippy

>>NATO I think European NATO needs to reconsider their reliance on the USA which will, IMHO become an increasingly less reliable ally over the next few years and decades. The same goes for Turkey which seems to align its self more with the Levant than with Europe. The US are not our friends economically or militarily. We are useful to them and that is all. It’s sad, but we need to be spending more on arms and armies. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Fri 1 Dec 23 19:47   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

archive.is/ZzEXQ Article in the economist about the Ukrainian war. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 12 Dec 23 22:29   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/biden-s-halting-record-on-ukraine/ar-AA1llTE8 A short history of the dithering in the white house over sending weapons to ukraine. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 13 Dec 23 00:13   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Bromptonaut

>> www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/biden-s-halting-record-on-ukraine/ar-AA1llTE8 >> >> >> A short history of the dithering in the white house over sending weapons to ukraine. Is the White House dithering or is it being screwed over by the House? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 13 Dec 23 06:32   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

Congress has given him a spending limit, however within that he could have sent equipment faster that ended up going anyway but often too late. Even the messaging has, at times, been unnecessarily weak and indecisive. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 20 Jan 24 22:23   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

www.abc.net.au/news/2024-01-21/freezing-russians-make-plea-to-vladimir-putin-after-heating-fail/103323062 Looks like large parts of Russia have no heating. Failing from corruption and mobilisation, despite their best efforts its not Ukraine or the rest of Europe that is struggling with the winter but Russia. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Jan 24 00:15   Ukraine - Volume 9 - zippy

Considering that Russia, Iran and North Korea are mates is it any surprise that Iran is kicking off in the Middle East, firing missiles at Iraq and Pakistan and arming their Houthi mates with drones and North Korea fired a salvo of shells to a disputed island. They are flexing their mussels and hoping to draw our recourses from where it is needed. I hope the generals in NATO are wrong, when they suggest a Russia vs. NATO war is inevitable, either way we need to show strength and properly arm the Ukraine. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Jan 24 08:30   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Duncan

>> They are flexing their mussels and hoping to draw our recourses from where it is >> needed. Hoping to winkle out what we have? Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Jan 24 09:15   Ukraine - Volume 9 - CGNorwich

>> >> They are flexing their mussels and hoping to draw our recourses from where it is >> needed. Very shellfish of them. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Jan 24 10:45   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

Better than flexing their molluscs I guess, still all sounds a bit fishy that they are still all floundering around Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Jan 24 07:32   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Dave

its not Ukraine or the rest of Europe that is struggling with >> the winter but Russia. >> You and your wealthy friends might not be struggling this winter, but many are struggling with energy prices. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Jan 24 09:05   Ukraine - Volume 9 - smokie

I don't think Sooty was meaning to suggest there aren't problems here, and I'm sure we are all aware of impact of fuel poverty in the UK, but the point of the article (and I suspect the reason for Sooty drawing attention to it) is not that they can't afford heating, it's that the infrastructure is so old and decrepit that there is no ability to provide it in the first place. And they have proper, sustained cold in many places in Russia. The article suggests that "in 2010, official estimates put the repair bill for Russia's housing and municipal infrastructure at $US200 billion" and "based on current spending levels, it would take more than 70 years for Russia to fix even the issues it has now". Last edited by: smokie on Sun 21 Jan 24 at 09:05 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Jan 24 09:36   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

Yes smokie that was the point, Russia thought they'd get through the winter fine and Europe would be shivering with no heating. Now with russia's mafia state, many repairmen outside of the big cities sent to Ukraine, ancient area heating system falling apart its their citizens shivering. Ironic i think. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Jan 24 09:27   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

> >> You and your wealthy friends might not be struggling this winter, but many are struggling >> with energy prices. >> My wealthy friends? Do tell. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 26 Jan 24 19:45   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/nato-societies-must-be-ready-war An article about readiness across nato to deter Russia in the next 3-5 years. There seems to be a push across nato to put this out into the public domain and discuss something that is generally off the political radar. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jan 24 19:59   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Big problems with tinternet in Russia currently. It looks like they've gone ahead with the brilliant idea of taking control of DNS for the .ru domain and hadn't thought about DNSSEC. Olga and Ivan are already having to put up with broken mobile services caused by electronic drone defences. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jan 24 20:34   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Robin O'Reliant

There seems to be a growing acceptance among governments, the media and the population at large that we are walking towards a major global conflict. I find this mindset a bit worrying. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Tue 30 Jan 24 20:55   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - zippy

>> There seems to be a growing acceptance among governments, the media and the population at large that we are walking towards a major global conflict. I find this mindset a bit worrying. >> Agree with this. I remember back in the '80s there was some tension going on re NATO vs USSR and early one weekend morning the air-raid sirens went off in the small area of the town where I lived. (Someone at BT connected the wrong line.) There wasn't panic, but a few bewildered neighbours in PJs were out in the close wondering what to do. Of course, there was nothing to do, we don't have shelters suitable for anything serious here. The big worry with Russia IMHO is that they may pick a fight that they can't win because their equipment can't compare to NATO's and resort to weapons of mass destruction far too quickly. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jan 24 21:47   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - CGNorwich

“The big worry with Russia IMHO is that they may pick a fight that they can't win because their equipment can't compare to NATO's and resort to weapons of mass destruction far too quickly.“ If they are prepared to start a war that that they know they can’t win conventionally and are prepared to use nuclear weapons it doesn’t really make sense to delay their use. In fact an initial nuclear strike on their part would make sense. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 30 Jan 24 at 21:50 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jan 24 22:52   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - zippy

>> “The big worry with Russia IMHO is that they may pick a fight that they >> can't win because their equipment can't compare to NATO's and resort to weapons of mass >> destruction far too quickly.“ >> >> If they are prepared to start a war that that they know they can’t win >> conventionally and are prepared to use nuclear weapons it doesn’t really make sense to delay >> their use. In fact an initial nuclear strike on their part would make sense. >> I was thinking more along the lines of a major miscalculation, thinking they could do it conventionally which then turned catastrophic. Last edited by: zippy on Tue 30 Jan 24 at 22:53 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jan 24 09:17   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

All the soviets military war plans (from the 80's) was based on an all out war against Nato, and using battlefield tactical nukes to shape the war theatre. thinking didnt change and without it, they are now in the situation they are in. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jan 24 21:01   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Fullchat

I cant help but agree with that. What also is worthy of debate is the talk of some form of conscription. We talk of defending 'OUR' nation. Is there still that flag waving Rule Britannia nationalism or has this county well and truly gone to the dogs. With our liberal, less disciplined, entitled, question and rebel against everything attitudes of the population particularly the young, could conscription actually work? You have to have ultimate sanctions. There are no real sanctions anymore. Institutions are rammed to capacity as its is. I fear unless you have some form of Marshall Law then for me its a non starter. Again for that it has to be enforced. Open for discussion. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jan 24 21:30   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - zippy

>>Ultimate Sanctions I hope you're not thinking of execution? I think the media will stir up patriotism so that people will feel the need to "sign up". There will always be some entitled so and sos that won't. And if there is enforcement, let's hope that they get it right and not employ someone like this numpty: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13024433/met-police-apology-Christian-singer-church-songs-volunteer-officer.html#v-6511767648953283158 Of course it needs to be fair - everyone should be included - no sons and daughters of the wealthy or politicians allowed to get out of it. Someone I work with has a brother who was in the forces. He got to a very, very senior rank before retiring and is now busier than ever with paid work for various groups involved with the services. Far more than was expected a couple of years ago. Last edited by: zippy on Tue 30 Jan 24 at 21:33 Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jan 24 21:41   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

We talk of defending 'OUR' nation. Is there still that flag waving Rule Britannia nationalism >> or has this county well and truly gone to the dogs. >> >> With our liberal, less disciplined, entitled, question and rebel against everything attitudes of the population >> particularly the young, could conscription actually work? >> I think people have been saying that sort of thing for quite a while. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 30 Jan 24 21:53   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Manatee

Martial Law? The ultimate expression of fascism I suppose. Apart from general decadence and dissolution, we have a very unpopular government that gives the impression it thinks the country and everything we own should belong to them and their friends. We aren't quite in the same boat as Russia in WW1 but they ended up shooting their own rulers. I don't foresee a patriotic rush to sign up. Somebody made an interesting point the other day. Guy Verhofstadt I think. Together, the European nations spend as much money on "defence" as China. The implication being that if Europe got organised it could be a superpower in its own right. It might need to be if Trump comes back. Now there's an idea - all the nations in Europe could form a sort of federation to increase their influence and prosperity, with Britain as one of the leading participants. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jan 24 01:29   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Terry

Russia expected to walk through Ukraine in a couple of weeks. They misjudged but would they even attempt an invasion that may likely end in failure - probably not. The main threat is to avoid that which could provoke a nuclear rather than conventional first strike - hence the reluctance of the West to provide Ukraine with obviously offensive capability. I suspect universal conscription would not be well received. However an improved capability needs to be initiated before the shooting starts. Like inadequate pandemic planning - sourcing PPE, ventilators, beds etc after the disease had arrived was much too late. A contingency plan is needed. I agree the Europe cannot now assume the US will come to its rescue - particularly with Trump in the White House. Europe has the resources and capability if effectively coordinated to outgun Russia by a considerable margin. The second part of a contingency plan should involve (a) ensuring an entirely adequate store of weapons and ammunition, and (b) a much better trained military cadre - improved territorials! This group would be volunteer. Legislation would provide a financial incentive together with decent pay for an initial induction of (say) 6 months. Low cost but real incentives may include writing off student loans (a lot never get repaid anyway), additional years NI to improve pension entitlements, priority for social housing etc. Training (say) 20k pa in this way would ensure that in time there may be 100-250k folk who have deployable skills in weapons handling, military organisation, discipline and tactics. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jan 24 07:42   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - zippy

>> improved territorials! I have worked with two guys who were in the volunteer forces, one in the TA and one in the Royal Navy Reserve. Both officers. Both had quite an air of confidence, which I guess comes from that type of training. I know the TA guy went on active service for a while and the Royal Navy guy has gone on to be a managing director of a financial institution. Last edited by: zippy on Wed 31 Jan 24 at 07:42 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jan 24 17:03   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> >> With our liberal, less disciplined, entitled, question and rebel against everything attitudes of the population >> particularly the young, could conscription actually work? >> >> >> If the threat were very real and the population were fearing for the future of it's existence it probably would. I believe surveys carried out among Oxbridge students before WW2 showed a majority who would refuse conscription - but when the stuff actually hit the fan almost all of those called up answered the call. Nothing like the threat of annihilation to concentrate the mind and blow any pacifist leanings into the gutter. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jan 24 18:12   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

. I believe surveys carried out among Oxbridge students before WW2 >> showed a majority who would refuse conscription - but when the stuff actually hit the >> fan almost all of those called up answered the call. >> >> Nothing like the threat of annihilation to concentrate the mind and blow any pacifist leanings >> into the gutter. >> I read a similar thing, i think it was in 1934. Not sure if it's true though, but it is a useful as a reminder that complaints about the youth of today are nothing new. However old you are someone older complainted when you were younger. Although I think conscription is off the cards, I don't think the outgoing CGS meant that. But he did hint at a sense of preparation for conflict that it might not always be 'somewhere else'. I think countries that have conscription or recently got rid get that. Norway, Germany, Sweden are increasing or looking to bring back conscription. Very unlikely we will fit various reasons. Mine the way manning is at the moment, reducing quite quickly in the services a bigger issue is retention of who we have first before we look to expand. www.forces.net/services/tri-service/uk-armed-forces-numbers-drop-almost-third-23-years-mod-data-reveals www.thetimes.co.uk/article/uk-military-is-too-small-to-fight-key-allies-warn-f6lv9gtxw Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 31 Jan 24 at 18:16 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jan 24 22:19   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

Clearly going forward we are not going to need hundreds of thousands of grunts and boots on the soil in any war going forward we are not going to be invading anyone, or getting engaged in massed tank battles again. So mass conscription is not going to be needed. We will need skilled forces in navy and airforce tho. Of course in the event of it going nuclear, its all a waste of time and resource. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jan 24 22:29   Ukraine - Volume 9 - bathtub tom

With what's going on in the world at the moment, it would appear that it's a battle of drones. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 1 Feb 24 09:08   Ukraine - Volume 9 - CGNorwich

“Clearly going forward we are not going to need hundreds of thousands of grunts and boots on the soil in any war going forward we are not going to be invading anyone, or getting engaged in massed tank battles again. So mass conscription is not going to be needed. “ Said the Ukranian Minister of Defence three years ago. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 1 Feb 24 at 09:10 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jan 24 15:25   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

NYT article about growing concern across NATO about Russia in the next 5 years or so. Some think we have less than that. archive.ph/bsq7y Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 31 Jan 24 17:01   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Manatee

I don't do conspiracy theories, but... Nobody can win an outright all in nuclear war. And yet, I sense that China intends to dominate and certainly Europe, the US and Russia want not to be dominated. Russia may have plans of its own to seize territory. Given this can't be achieved without disastrous self-harm by conventional war against a nuclear-armed opponent who won't give in, it's almost inevitable that electronic and/or biological and/or chemical warfare will be a threat, and that such weapons are already in development, testing and use notwithstanding treaties that might prohibit that. For the moment China is probably content to wage war mainly economically. It looks very much as if China will virtually monopolise EV manufacturing. I have not in general been in favour of a European superstate in which subsidiarity would be abandoned. I'm beginning to think it's essential unless the veto is dealt with And Britain it seems can't go it alone successfully. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Wed 31 Jan 24 22:22   Ukraine - Volume 9 - zippy

>>Serving… When just out of college I worked with a lovely lady who’s older brother was a soldier on WW2. His job was to recover battle damaged tanks. Whilst not directly in action, the things he saw scared him. I worked with Beefeaters and the US airbases. All service personnel that I were polite and respectful. I changed jobs to banking and visited a client with some colleagues, including the TA officer who I mention up thread. He was a senior manager. We didn’t get on with the client. He was older, but I worked it out, not older enough to have been in WW2. Anyway he took a real dislike to the bank and any representative and kept on saying we need a good war to sort out the likes of you lot. The TA reservist was at least 30 years older than me and brooked no crap. He stood up called the man a worm (far less politely though and without swearing or getting angry) and closed the meeting. Some time after, I was called in to the HR directors office because the client had made a complaint. He was an ex-RAF pilot and said nothing to worry about, just need to get facts down as the client complained to the board. HR director told me that the TA had been in action as a soldier and was wounded. He was of a rank that entitled him to use it in civilian life but chose not to (so major at least). HR director said anyone who has been through a war would never wish it on any one. Last edited by: zippy on Wed 31 Jan 24 at 22:24 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 1 Feb 24 09:50   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Bromptonaut

Plenty of people too young for WW2 saw action in places like Korea, Malaya and Cyprus. Mrs B's maternal Uncle saw people taken out by EOKA in Cyprus while doing his two years. At least the UK kept out of Vietnam. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Feb 24 08:29   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/estonias-weekend-warriors-the-sas-civilians-urging-brits-to-get-off-the-sofa-and-learn-how-to-fight-13077055 Unsurprisingly countries near Russia are extremely concerned and are ready. Is the UK prepared for any Russian advance into NATO? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Feb 24 10:36   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Terry

I suspect, like pandemic planning, the UK is poorly prepared - too few with current military and weapons training, and too little stock of ammunition, missile systems, spares and equipment. This is not to suggest current UK forces are anything other than well trained, capable and motivated. However funding a far larger army reserve (currently 30,000 strong) and ensuring adequate war materials to fight a fairly extended conflict seems sensible. Fortunately, unlike our European allies, the UK is separated from the mainland by water - a seaborne invasion is logistically far more complex. Rather cynical - perhaps the strategy is to keep the Ukraine conflict going. It keeps Russia occupied, is costly in terms of men and equipment, the Russian economy suffers, failure makes Putin more vulnerable, public sentiment may not support further conflict (although when did the public have a say in Russian foreign policy!) Last edited by: Terry on Fri 23 Feb 24 at 10:36 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Mar 24 22:30   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Russia obtains audio of German military meetings disussing Ukraine. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68457087 WTF? Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Mar 24 23:17   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Lygonos

Other than for Russian propaganda, is irrelevant to the actual conflict. Russia knows we are all planning strikes on their territory. We know Russian knows this. Russia knows we know they know. We have soldiers in Ukraine training Ukrainians and servicing weapons systems - Russia knows this. We know they know this. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 3 Mar 24 09:39    Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

I don't think there's much in the conversation not in the public arena. It's been made public because the Russians know how nervous the Germans are about some weapon transfers. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 2 Mar 24 23:25   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

When you sell someone a car, you tell them how fast it is and what its range is. Weapons aint no different. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 3 Mar 24 00:57   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Terry

From the outset NATO has supplied weapons they assess as being unlikely to escalate the conflict, but improve the capability of Ukrainian forces. A somewhat difficult judgement and as already evidenced by delays in tanks, aircraft and missile systems. All this leak does is make explicit that which has been happening for the last two years. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 10 Mar 24 08:47   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68514995 Does Europe want to see Ukraine win? Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 10 Mar 24 11:31   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

IF Russia does win and takes over all of Ukraine, it will be at ruinous cost to them from which they might never recover and with sanctions never lifted in several lifetimes. Plus China might see a weak Russia as an easy target, and Russia will have a large rebellious population to keep subdued. A Russian win is just as bad a Russian loss - for Russia. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 10 Mar 24 11:49   Ukraine - Volume 9 - zippy

>>Sanctions... If only they worked. Russia seems to be trading very well with 2nd and 3rd world countries who don't subscribe to our values. Unfortunately some voters are not interested and support the "other side" - e.g. Hamas. I suspect with the right narrative, these useful idiots would support Russia as well. Police even arrest people who state that Hamas are terrorists - which is the Govt. line. www.dailymail.co.uk/video/israelhamasconflict/video-3143087/Video-Police-arrest-man-carrying-Hamas-terrorists-sign-protest.html Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 10 Mar 24 15:24   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Lygonos

Food is going to become an increasingly important commodity - if Russia win they gain control of a massively productive country. Sanctions will be worth squat when we need food. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Sun 10 Mar 24 16:00   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Manatee

Good point, big wheat producer. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 10 Mar 24 16:02   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

>> Food is going to become an increasingly important commodity - if Russia win they gain >> control of a massively productive country. Except of course, it wont be massively productive once Russia gets hold of it. Even if the country is not shelled to pieces, "Productive" does not exist as a concept in Russia. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 10 Mar 24 16:52   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Manatee

>> Except of course, it wont be massively productive once Russia gets hold of it. Even >> if the country is not shelled to pieces, "Productive" does not exist as a concept >> in Russia. That certainly used to be the case under the communal system. I watched a documentary not long after the wall came down. The USA's working assumption had been that Russia had been spending 50% of GDP on "defence". As more information came out, they revised that estimate to 75%. There was an account of how a previous President, can't remember which, had toured a furniture factory. State owned of course. He asked why the lounge furniture was all so heavy and bulky, when most Muscovites lived in small flats. The factory manager proudly explained that the 5 year plan required them to convert a certain number of cubic metres of timber each year into furniture for the comrades. By effectively making the sofas out of railways sleepers they were able to exceed their targets by a large margin. Even now GDP/capita is <30% of ours. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 10 Mar 24 17:00   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Terry

Russia outranks Ukraine in the corruption stakes scoring 26/100 to 36/100. The UK by comparison scores 76/100. If Russia win food production will almost certainly fall from historic levels as the oligarchs fight over the spoils of war. Of far more concern - when Russia invaded, Europe and US were "resolute" in their commitment to support Ukraine. Trump on the horizon and the inability of the EU to act in a joined up way means Ukraine may lose. How much confidence remains , assuming an emboldened Russia has further ambitions, that NATO will function as intended and come to the rescue of individual members - particularly smaller ones with less political clout. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 13 Mar 24 21:58   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Today Scholz stated that "under no circumstances" will he allow the transfer of Taurus missiles to Ukraine. His reasons were: a) To ensure that Ukraine does not use them against targets inside Russia it would be necessary for German military to supervise their use and having German military paticipate in their use would escalate the situation. b) There are 'secret' reasons that he can't talk about. In the meantime the Bundestag are still arguing about the British offer to give Ukraine more Storm Shadow if Germany will transfer a few Taurus to the RAF. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 14 Mar 24 07:35   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1768006778837471247 Denmark isn't the only country, i believe Germany are considering doing the same. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 14 Mar 24 10:39   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

twitter.com/United24media/status/1767664362477486537 Pocket chamberlains, not heard that one before. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 17 Apr 24 11:09   Ukrainians steal a Russian tank - bathtub tom

www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/04/15/ukrainian-troops-staged-a-daring-three-night-raid-to-steal-a-russian-tank-fitted-with-a-new-drone-jammer/ You've got to admire them. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 18 Apr 24 12:20   Ukrainians steal a Russian tank - zippy

The Ukrainians are complaining that they have not received the same air support that Israel got last week. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Apr 24 07:47   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

www.itv.com/news/2024-04-20/us-house-to-vote-on-aid-bills-including-61bn-for-ukraine The US have finally passed the legislation through, i believe the vote in the senate is a formality. Stocks should start arriving within days. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Apr 24 08:12   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Before the vote The Senate said that they would pass the bill to Sleepy Joe as soon as they receive it and the Pentagon has been chomping at the bit to get stuff handed over. Don't know if the new package will include artillery shells but that is what Ukraine badly needs. They are outgunned 10 to 1 at the moment and Russia is now getting 203mm shells from Iran. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Apr 24 09:01   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

Yes that's on the top of their list along with himars ammunition and more patriot batteries. No clusters shells, that was removed from the list. Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 21 Apr 24 at 09:01 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 21 Apr 24 21:14   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Mark Warner, the Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee has told CBS that the Ukraine Assistance Bill should be with Sleepy Joe on Tuesday or Wednesday and that the bill specifically mentions longer range ATACMS missiles. "If everything goes well with the passage of the bill in the Senate, deliveries of the weapons themselves could start by the end of next week." He added that the Pentagon should have already prepared ATACMS missiles for transfer to Ukraine. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 22 Apr 24 22:43   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

Hungary have said that they will block an EU aid package to Ukraine for 2Bn Euros because Ukraine 'discriminates' against Hungarian companies. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 22 Apr 24 23:30   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1782526548202897781 UK aid package to Ukraine, timed to coincide with the US support. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Apr 24 10:57   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

www.itv.com/news/2024-04-23/sunak-commits-to-spend-25-of-gdp-on-defence-by-2030 Another one to tie in with the American announcement. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 24 Apr 24 12:07   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

The brass in the Pentagon were certainly on the front foot and couldn't be bothered to wait for the House to finish squabbling. An 'informed source' quoted by CNN says that a large proportion of the hardware for Ukraine is already in warehouses in Poland and Germany. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 May 24 16:58   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

A report by The Hudson Institute given to the US House claims that Russia has adapted their EW systems to counter the M982 Excalibur 155mm shell, the GLSDB and possibly HIMARS. In particular, the successful strike rate of M982 has fallen from 70% to 6%. Meanwhile, the Pentagon are a bit miffed with the UK. The UK wants to supply Ukraine with as many FPV UAVs as it possibly can and has come to the conclusion that it will have to include stuff manufactured in China. The yanks want us to stick to UAVs from manufacturers on the Pentagon's 'White List' which doesn't include Chinese stuff and are up to ten times the price. A UK source has reportedly said that instead of the UK buying Chinese UAV's directly they'll let Ukraine buy what they want and we'll pick up the tab. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 May 24 18:56   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

Probably some lobbying over switchblade which was a flop at $25k a pop, the Ukrainians make/assemble fpv drones for $500 a pop. Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 1 May 24 at 18:58 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 May 24 21:48   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/may/02/gazprom-first-annual-loss-in-20-years-trade-europe-gas-sales-russia-ukraine Russia's economy may start to be feeling the effects of the sanctions. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 May 24 19:57   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

>Russia's economy may start to be feeling the effects of the sanctions. But this week India Oil Corp. resumed purchasing Russian oil delivered by Sovcomflot. The tanker Vladimir Tikhonov unloaded about 1 million barrels of Russian Urals oil at the port of Paradip earlier this week and there are five more Sovcomflot tankers waiting to unload. Estimates are that total imports at all Indian ports are running at 1.9m bpd. Gas exports may have been hit but it looks like discounted oil is making up the shortfall. Someone needs to tell India there will be consequences. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 May 24 20:25   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

I don't know is that a lot of oil for Russia? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 May 24 20:42   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

About 20% of their total daily output. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 4 May 24 06:42   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

I wonder about the reminder. Selling some cheap oil to india will keep them afloat for a bit longer but i don't think it's going to stop their economic issues. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 May 24 22:22   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Biggles

They know that there won't be any though as long as they don't align with China. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 May 24 23:14   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

Being basically corrupt India will swing wherever the money is. Worlds largest democracy? you are 'avin a Giraffe., Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 May 24 19:49   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

On a trip to Australia, Anna Baerbock the German Foreign Minister, confirmed that the hacking group Fancy Bear which is part of the GRU gained access to the email accounts of the SDP, including Scholz, in Dec '22. It was discovered in 2023 although she didn't elaborate on exactly when. A bug in Outlook was the entry point and Czech security services said that they were also targeted. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 May 24 23:16   The Ukraine - Volume 9 - Zero

>> On a trip to Australia, Anna Baerbock the German Foreign Minister, confirmed that the hacking >> group Fancy Bear which is part of the GRU gained access to the email accounts >> of the SDP, Well I suppose it beats Chinese spies in the houses of parliament. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 12 May 24 21:32   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

www.france24.com/en/europe/20240512-putin-set-to-replace-shoigu-as-russia-s-defence-minister Putin shuffles the deck. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 24 May 24 10:17   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/24/ukraine-western-support-boxing-champion-russia Good article from the Guardian. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 24 May 24 12:07   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

Putin proposes a ceasefire www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-wants-ukraine-ceasefire-current-frontlines-sources-say-2024-05-24/ Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 21 Jun 24 21:54   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

x.com/igorsushko/status/1804192975418986540 Russian press gang in action. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 21 Jun 24 22:09   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Kevin

And the Pentagon Press Secretary has clarified that Ukraine has every right to use Amarican kit to hit targets inside Russia if those targets are a threat and it is done for defensive purposes. That includes shooting down aircraft inside Russian airspace. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 21 Jun 24 22:21   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

They've 3 more patriot batteries on the way as well, that'll help. Ukraine looks to be increasing it's air defence as Russia's is destroyed. They've stripped the far east to keep AD in Crimea. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 21 Jun 24 22:55   Ukraine - Volume 9 - sooty123

archive.is/00HJR FT article on more patriot batteries to ukraine. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 16 Aug 24 22:23   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - zippy

Well it's good to see the Ukrainians are hitting back at Russia. I hope it doesn't go wrong for them, it is certainly a brave and surprising move. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 17 Aug 24 21:38   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - sooty123

I think they'll be there for a while yet, easier if NATO give the ok for weapons to be used inside Russia. But Biden is still in self deterrence mode. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 19 Feb 25 16:42   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - zippy

Apparently Ukraine started the war! Trump is in full victim blaming mode. Either this or it's an attempt at new speak. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 19 Feb 25 17:34   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - CGNorwich

"Apparently Ukraine started the war!" Of course they did. Putin told him so. Will be interesting to see how Trump's apologists explain away this latest outburst of unmitigated lies. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 19 Feb 25 18:29   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Zero

Trump has now become Putins apologist appeaser, and puppet. No idea why, at best I can only assume he is desperately trying to seen to be a peacemaker, maybe thinking strategically he is trying to isolate China by luring Russia back, but alas I fear the real reason is that he is a d*******., Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 19 Feb 25 22:41   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Kevin

>..at best I can only assume he is desperately trying to seen to be a peacemaker.. Trump has always disagreed with helping Ukraine and is doing what he said he would do so there's no surprise there. I think his primary objective is to get back the cost of whatever aid Biden supplied. His criticism of Zelensky and parroting the Kremlin's BS is completely mad. He's effectively giving every warmongering despot the idea that they can invade and slaughter their neighbours and the US will turn a blind eye. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 19 Feb 25 18:07   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Manatee

Can Trump really be so stupid? I want to think he has a really cunning plan. He really shouldn't be talking to Putin without a responsible adult. Putin seems to have bamboozled Trump. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 19 Feb 25 21:13   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - CGNorwich

Yes he is that stupid but being a narcissist believes he isi some sort of genius. The whole process is looking to end up like Yalta when Stalin ran rings around an ailing Roosevelt and an ageing Churchill who somehow believed Stalin's promises regardless of all evidence to the contrary. I fear the worst. Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 19 Feb 25 at 21:14 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 03:45   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - zippy

Some suspect that he is a KGB agent... www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/19/trump-first-moscow-trip-215842 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 14:00   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Manatee

If he were a KGB agent he would be hiding it better, the Russians would make sure of that. He is now claiming Zelenskyy is so unpopular that only 4% of Ukrainians support him when it is well over half. He says Ukraine should never have started the war. This is transparent propaganda. At what point do the Republicans who are along for the ride raise some objections? If Trump's motives are genuine he is an utter moron. They aren't, and he isn't. And neither is Musk. Is this what evil is? In a way he's just doing what America has been doing for over 40 years. Concentrating wealth in the top 1% and keeping poor people poor. This is what all the 'slashing of waste' is about. This much-reproduced cartoon is apposite. i.redd.it/qtuqzy10r8g61.jpg Maybe the MAGA 2nd amendment fans will invade the White House when it dawns that it isn't just poor brown people who are going to suffer. Perhaps the one worthwhile thing Trump has done is to make obvious the American scam on its people. The wealthiest country in the world could have aspired to give everybody the chance of a good education, healthcare, and a decent life. But it didn't. Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 20 Feb 25 at 14:03 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 14:01   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - maltrap

Very interesting. Trump does seem to have a soft spot for Russia. Could he be a double agent? Last edited by: maltrap on Thu 20 Feb 25 at 14:02 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 14:36   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Robin O'Reliant

>> Very interesting. >> Trump does seem to have a soft spot for Russia. >> Could he be a double agent? >> No, but he worships Putin. Putin is everything Trump would like to be, a ruthless dictator with an unlimited time in charge and his enemies in jail or dead. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 15:11   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Manatee

UK and Europe, has a serious problem. Do they oppose Trump in his submission to Putin, and do Putin's work by forcing a split in the alliance? Or get in line with the USA and hope to retain some sort of unity? Trump has pointedly not involved Europe in his "peace initiative". If Trump gives it all away then it would be foolish to hope a line will be drawn. What remains of Ukraine will not be safe from further predations, nor will other states bordering Russia. It seems a certainty that Putin will make the most of his opportunity. I have no idea whether it is even realistic to suggest that Europe should unite and throw everything into supporting Ukraine now. Would that destroy NATO? Or should UK and Europe let it go, and set about drawing the line themselves? More on the Russian connections here - Letters from an American. heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/february-19-2025 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 16:35   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - tyrednemotional

Private Eye's take.... pbs.twimg.com/media/GkIq-v4XEAA-w6j?format=jpg&name=small Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 18:54   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - maltrap

Interesting piece from the Guardian regarding Trump’s relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 19:17   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Terry

Trump is an arrogant bully. He enjoys the exercise of power. He places value on negotiations with those similarly powerful. He does not do subtlety or detail. He is focussed on simplistic "one syllable" goals - easy to articulate and communicate. Negotiating style is combative and content to throw radical ideas into the ring. It may evidence a lack of intellect - or possibly to see the reaction rather than in expectation of their acceptance. Some of his utterances seem totally bizarre - but say something often enough and folk start to believe it is true - we all remember "take back control" and have great difficulty in identifying any benefits. It may simply be a way of provoking a reaction - it's certainly done that!! The war in Ukraine has been running for three years with no evidence of a conclusion. Europe and Ukraine have made ZERO progress towards a peace. Ukraine has been given sufficient for a stalemate. There is no prospect of a Ukraine victory. IMHO the priority is a stable peace and an end to the suffering and cost of endless conflict - I am unconcerned whose feelings are upset in its pursuit. There is no evidence involving Europe or Zelensky will speed a solution - dialogue with Putin may. Excluding Europe from negotiations sends a very strong signal. As individual nation states they are proven largely inconsequential - the fighting goes on. NATO has ridden on the back of the US for 3 decades. There is no coherent European defence force with adequate budgets, common strategies and leadership. Whether Trump wants to deliver a wake up call, or signal the end of US support is unclear. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 19:56   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - tyrednemotional

That's rather like saying that you know Harold Shipman killed 280+ people, but you have to forgive him that because they were all eventually going to die anyway, and he once saw your Granny safely over the road.... Patently, a number of people are pulling Trump's strings. One prime suspect being: x.com/elonmusk/status/1892613981426102465 ...and note the chilling opening paragraph. "We're all in favour of freedom of speech (as long as it aligns with our "truth")". Worrying times. Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Thu 20 Feb 25 at 19:57 Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 20 Feb 25 20:25   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Manatee

I agree Trump has been captured, by the far right generally, and latterly by Elon Musk. Trump did sod all last time. The difference perhaps is that he is now getting instructions. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 20:21   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Manatee

>>IMHO the priority is a stable peace The issue is what comes after, if Putin is allowed to keep the territory he occupies. Trump has already conceded everything Putin wants. They are crowing in Russia. It will clearly not end Putin's desire to control Ukraine as a client state, or deter further expansion into Eastern Europe especially the former Warsaw pact countries. The former Soviet Baltic states must be terrified, NATO members though they be. General Sir Richard Shirreff, latterly deputy supreme allied commander Europe, thinks the likelihood of Europe fighting a war with Russia within 3-5 years will be greatly increased by Trump's 'peace' plan. That seems blindingly obvious even to me. Chamberlain prioritized peace, perhaps not having much choice. Sudetenland was conceded in Munich without any participation by the Czech government (see the parallel?). Subsequently the Munich Pact was broken, Czechoslovakia was annexed and nobody did much, and Poland was invaded soon after. The rationale for Germany ruling Sudetenland was that the inhabitants were ethnically German. cf. Ukraine. At a time when Putin wants to weaken NATO, it needs to be strengthened. Trump has already weakened it. Putin wants to split Europe from the US. Trump is doing it. >>Whether Trump wants to deliver a wake up call, or signal the end of US support is unclear. Wishful thinking. It couldn't be much clearer. Our best hope is that they get rid of him quick. Which is unfortunate because it doesn't look as if that will happen. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 21:13   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Kevin

>At a time when Putin wants to weaken NATO, it needs to be strengthened. Trump has >already weakened it. Putin wants to split Europe from the US. Trump is doing it. Trump has been telling Europe and Canada since his first term that the US won't continue to bankroll NATO and that the other members need to stop taking the P and contribute their fair share. They ignored him. In 2018 he told Germany that they were becoming too dependent on Russian energy and they may come to regret it. German politicians actually laughed at him. You can't blame Trump for Europe's failure to take their NATO and security responsibilities seriously. www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pdf/240617-def-exp-2024-en.pdf Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 21:44   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Robin O'Reliant

It isn't just Trump who thinks Europe are not pulling their weight over defence spending. Over sixty years ago JFK was making the same complaint. However bad and potentially dangerous Trump is, you can understand the Americans being P'd off with giving the rest of NATO a free ride for so long. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 20 Feb 25 22:24   Ukraine - Volume 9 - Ukraine Invades Russia - Terry

The European underspend on NATO has been evident since the break up of the Soviet Union more than 3 decades ago. It is no surprise that the US are frustrated. Geo-politics has changed since creation of NATO in 1949 - Europe had finished a destructive war, Russia were seen as a communist threat to the world order - particularly by the US. China is now an economic and military powerhouse. India coming up fast. Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines all important. No surprise the US is looking west not east. To be taken seriously Europe needs to act as a coherent whole - not as independent nation states with some common regulation (EU). Earlier attempts to create a European army failed largely as states did not want to sacrifice their independence. Europe needs to substantially increase defence budgets whether NATO continues largely as is, or Europe becomes increasingly responsible for its own security. What Trump does is outside our direct control. In three years time Trump will be history - whether his successor has greater empathy is unknown. Europe should not lay the blame solely at Trumps door, but take responsibility for its own ineptitude and failings: - under invested for decades in defence - failed to create a combined defence force with meaningful capacity in depth - failed to identify global strategic geo political changes and act upon them Aesop's fable (published 1867) about the bundle of sticks is as true now as then. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 21 Feb 25 17:33   Mixed messages - CGNorwich

Wednesday MUSK Writing on X, Musk said: "In reality, Zelenskyy is despised by the people of Ukraine, which is why he has refused to hold an election. I challenge Zelenskyy to hold an election and refute this. He will not." He added: "President Trump is right to ignore him and solve for peace independent of the disgusting, massive graft machine feeding off the dead bodies of Ukrainian soldiers." Thursday KELLOG -Trump's Special Envoy to Ukraine and Russia “A long and intense day with the senior leadership of Ukraine. Extensive and positive discussions with @ZelenskyyUa, the embattled and courageous leader of a nation at war and his talented national security team,” Keith Kellogg posted Thursday morning on the social platform X. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 21 Feb 25 17:47   Mixed messages - tyrednemotional

...well, we know who's the next public employee to get a taste of Musk's chainsaw, don't we! Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 22 Feb 25 11:51   Mixed messages - Manatee

Musk now lies freely and as obviously as Trump. I suppose this is designed to make the people doubt the truth of everything, including when they are told how absolutely corrupt the people they have elected are. Zelenskyy would win an election in Ukraine tomorrow. The apologia for Trump above do not change the risks of letting Putin win. I see the story of his recruitment by the KGB has resurfaced. It gets more believable by the day. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 22 Feb 25 13:23   Mixed messages - CGNorwich

There are three major powers in the world USA Russia China Europe is too fragmented to act in an an effective manner. In support of Ukraine If I were Zelenskyy now that USA under Trump is no longer interested in Europe I would be putting out feelers to China Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 22 Feb 25 13:43   Mixed messages - Bromptonaut

>> If I were Zelenskyy now that USA under Trump is no longer interested in Europe >> I would be putting out feelers to China I think Russia have already 'got' China in this context. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 22 Feb 25 16:29   Mixed messages - CGNorwich

>> >> I think Russia have already 'got' China in this context. >> I rather think the other way round. Containment of Russia and a foothold in Europe makes a lot of sense. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 22 Feb 25 18:54   Mixed messages - zippy

Europe really needs to get their act together to be seen as a powerful bloc. Whilst I am not sold on the idea, perhaps a United States of Europe is the answer with ONE voice for international issues such as this. With the USA and Russia effectively now allies in attempting to carve up Ukraine, Europe must realise that the USA is no longer a trusted ally with regards Ukraine and probably for many other issues. Ukraine might be on to a "winner" for want of a better word, to go to China. If China spent a fortune including Ukraine in their belt and roads initiative, then they are not going to look kindly on Russia dismantling it with high explosives. Ukraine also needs to be careful about any agreements made. You may recall that Ukraine gave up the nuclear missiles on their territory for an undertaking from Russia, USA and the UK to protect them. No formal treaty was signed. What a very sad and telling mistake on their part. If Europe are not careful, after spending billions on aide to Ukraine, China could swoop in, win the peace and all the relevant reconstruction contracts. (Let your enemies fight and then when they are weakened - take advantage.) Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 22 Feb 25 19:02   Mixed messages - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> >> If Europe are not careful, after spending billions on aide to Ukraine, China could swoop >> in, win the peace and all the relevant reconstruction contracts. (Let your enemies fight and >> then when they are weakened - take advantage.) >> Good point there, Zip. It's a shame we can't post pictures here. I've just seen a brilliant one of Putin with a portrait of Donald Trump behind him enscribed with "Employee of the month". Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 22 Feb 25 22:12   Mixed messages - Biggles

2016 seems such an age ago. www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/kremlin-names-trump-employee-of-the-month Reply to this message | Report message