www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/jun/09/teesside-barclaycard-dc-thomson-printing
I have read that Barclays is one of the latest companies to begin a outsourcing programme, 1000’s of jobs are to be outsourced.
While I understand that companies have to make a profit, how as a economy are we supposed to grow, when we have no jobs for people to do, we are in effect funding another countries economy when we should be looking after our own.
I don’t see our economy growing any more if companies keep up this practice.
Lets also remember that India (one of the major receivers of outsourcing work) has no or very weak Data protection laws, we already know that data is freely sold to individuals from call centre workers, but if I take out a credit card why should my data be sent to the other side of the world heaven knows what happens to it, while its there.
What to other Car 4 Players think about the effect it has on our country?
How do you feel about your personal data sent to the other side of the world?
If you could, would you do anything about it? Or does it not bother you?
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Edit:
700 Jobs by Barclaycard are to go overseas.
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>> While I understand that companies have to make a profit, how as a economy are
>> we supposed to grow, when we have no jobs for people to do, we are
>> in effect funding another countries economy when we should be looking after our own.
>> I don’t see our economy growing any more if companies keep up this practice.
>>
Be thankful that Barclays has decided to keep its HQ here. It could just as easily move offshore.
"Barclays is a major global financial services provider engaged in retail banking, credit cards, corporate banking, investment banking, wealth management and investment management services with an extensive international presence in Europe, the Americas, Africa and Asia.
With over 300 years of history and expertise in banking, Barclays operates in over 50 countries and employs nearly 147,000 people. Barclays moves, lends, invests and protects money for more than 48 million customers and clients worldwide.
Look at the Board of Directors - how many do you think are British?
www.google.co.uk/finance?client=ob&q=LON:BARC
>> I don’t see our economy growing any more if companies keep up this practice.
>>
Until we can compete fully (taking overall account of skills, wages, overhead costs of employment such as pensions, rates, rents, elf&safety, etc.), companies will outsource work to wherever it is makes most sense to do it. Why do you think most manufacturers have moved to China and Asia? It is not because they enjoy watching Britain go down the pan.
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Agreed,
so why isnt more done to ensure that Britain is a competative jobs market. otherwise the more people that are out of work I think the more our economy will decline.
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It's not least driven by our duplicitous values. We can all remember the furore over "rip off Britain" etc. The public demand for cheaper goods and services is a self fulfilling prophesy when it comes to the domestic jobs market.
British companies can not compete while they are being driven by market forces ( you and me folks ) to provide their products and services ever cheaper. Resultantly they outsource, this in turn increases domestic unemployment caiusing greater pressure on price as fewer people can afford to pay the going rate so further cost cuts have to be made and so it goes on.
It is more or less too late to stop this now. The only way it could be slowed or reversed would be if we as a nation chose to support domestic companies who deliberately sold domestically produced goods or domestically operated services. This would incur significant price premiums and would therefore not be supported.
Some will be old enough to remember the abject failure of the "I'm backing Britain" initiative of the Heath government. The reality is that people simply don't care about national economic issues and they perhaps understandably relate only to their own needs and circumstances.
There was an initiative in Brazil a couple of decades ago to try to stabilise their economy which was in freefall by banning or disproportionately taxing the import of goods and services. The thinking was that it would force the populace to support Brazilian companies. It of course failed and resulted in a thriving black market.
Once upon a time there was a sense of community in society. A feeling that by supporting one's own that there would be mutual benefit but we have long since lost that attitude at all levels. Some would argue, possibly correctly, that insularity is just as dangerous. While you have them and us situations it will almost always lead to conflict when one group or nation decides it wants something the other has got. While they continue to trade with each other there is much greater pressure to resist conflict situations so it is not a simple equation by any means.
Ultimately, the problem lies in the basic economic model upon which our society and most of the world is founded. It relies in its most basic form upon a chain of exploitation. To this day we chase cheap labour and goods around the world to feed our aquisitive materialistic first world wants and unless that economic form of gluttony is about to become unfashionable soon it will continue so for the foreseeable future.
We are all guilty of driving these factors. It's our way of life and therein lies the problem. Sadly, there does not seem to be a simple solution. For sure I don't know what to suggest other than to encourage those of us who occupy the planet for now to enjoy the ride while it lasts because for certain it can't carry on like this indefinitely.
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>> British companies can not compete while they are being driven by market forces ( you
>> and me folks ) to provide their products and services ever cheaper. Resultantly they outsource,
>> this in turn increases domestic unemployment caiusing greater pressure on price as fewer people can
>> afford to pay the going rate so further cost cuts have to be made and
>> so it goes on.
>>
>> It is more or less too late to stop this now.
>> Ultimately, the problem lies in the basic economic model upon which our society and most
>> of the world is founded. It relies in its most basic form upon a chain
>> of exploitation. To this day we chase cheap labour and goods around the world to
>> feed our aquisitive materialistic first world wants and unless that economic form of gluttony is
>> about to become unfashionable soon it will continue so for the foreseeable future.
Yes, but maybe not indefinately. As countries like China, India, Vietnam become wealthy as a result of cheap exports, they begin to demand a better lifestyle, which in turn means they buy more cars, and eat more expensive foods including a much larger percentage of meat in their diet (which is far more expensive to produce in terms of resources compared to crops). They then demand higher wages which means that the manufacturing costs rise. Won't you get to a point where it makes no sense anymore to import from these countries and business will be localised again?
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>> as...China, India, Vietnam become wealthy as a
>> result of cheap exports,
These countries have vast reservoirs of very poor people at the moment to take up the slack, especially where relatively unskilled labour is required.
Resources must become an issue long before then, and before 1.15 billion people in India and 1.35 billion in China become industrialised. It's commodity prices and exchange rates that have pushed up China's prices, not supply limitations.
Isn't that the elephant in the room? There is no way all of those people can have fridges, let alone cars, without putting unsustainable pressure on the environment and resources.
And that's before the expected population growth.
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Indeed there is evidence of rapid economic growth having a detrimental bearing on a location as a source. However, especially in the relatively low tech industries like garment and footwear manufacturing there has been a global pattern where the industry simply chases the cheap labour around the world.
In the 19th century and for much of the 20th most manufacturing was domestically located. It was only post WW2 that the trend towards distance sourcing began in earnest with the first real volumes coming from the mediteranean rim. Southern Italy, parts of Spain and Portugal began to become more attractive as manufacturing sources and peaked in the late 1970s and early 1980s when the economic growth factors described above began to impact on their competitiveness as mass volume suppliers.
At around this time European retailers began instead to tap into the cheaper supply chains which had been concurrently developed by and for the American markets such as Brazil. Perhaps I should hang my head in retrospective shame as I was heavily involved in just such a project on behalf of my then British employers who proceeded to in parallel downsize and finally completely close down their UK manufacturing plants over a relative short space of time.
When South America began to look expensive, buyers looked east to Vietnam and China in particular along with India. So it remains for now but as and when these sources become uneconomic there will almost certainly be another move to as yet untapped cheap labour markets.
There are still huge chunks of the world which remain undeveloped and poverty stricken. They and in particular their governments would welcome foreign investment in manufacturing with open arms despite the lessons learned elsewhere.
It was ever thus. Money talks. A few get rich, some get to taste a a little of what they've been missing and the cycle continues.
All of this because we want cheap, disposable clothes and shoes. Despite the certainty that this implies near slave labour, child labour and expoitation we mustn't let that spoil our western appetite for a bargain must we.
We are all culpable, big businesses certainly but in truth individuals also. We all want to earn more and pay less and to hell with the human cost.
It's all of our faults at some level. Maybe one day a generation will actually grasp that nettle and do something about it although it's probably too late.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Sat 2 Oct 10 at 21:34
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Good account Humph. I think the cycle may change though - either resources become the issue, or to the extent that India and China urbanise they will finally exhaust their own and thereby the world's supply of cheap labour - a third of the world lives in those regions.
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It all stems from the fact that if you have 2 products (or services) and one is made in India (or handled by staff in India) and costs £20, the other is British but costs £22.
The British public would not buy the British product (or service).
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>> It all stems from the fact that if you have 2 products (or services) and
>> one is made in India (or handled by staff in India) and costs £20, the
>> other is British but costs £22.
>>
>> The British public would not buy the British product (or service).
...and the actual cost differences are much bigger than that. Prices from China have now risen somewhat, but I recall not long ago the FOB cost of microwaves from China dropping to $10. Contact centre costs in Mauritius are currently said to be about 10% of what they are in western Europe.
I refuse to go abroad for general purpose holidays - if I want to go somewhere special I will, otherwise I am happy to explore the UK. A factor in the decision to buy three new Hondas has been the fact that they are at least put together in the UK. One of the reasons I buy mostly proper shoes is that they are still made here, though I suspect there is significant hidden foreign manufacturing even in much 'Northampton' made footwear.
Sadly just about everything in the shops is imported. That increasingly includes food. One of the great achievements of the post war period was making Britain practically self sufficient in food - now even that is declining.
I'm far from being a Little Englander, but there seems to be no pride in anything any more.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 2 Oct 10 at 12:16
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>> How do you feel about your personal data sent to the other side of the world?
>>
The 1998 DP Act includes:
"Personal information may not be sent outside the European Economic Area unless the individual whom it is about has consented or adequate protection is in place, for example by the use of a prescribed form of contract to govern the transmission of the data."
If you are convinced you data has been sent offshore then you should inform the company you are not happy about this and give them the opportunity to rectify this. If they refuse quote the above but you must be able to prove where the servers are.
The call centre may be in the back of beyond but do you know where the data server physically is ?
Of course the outsourcing company should take steps to make sure the hardware is nailed down, USB sticks, local printers etc... cannot be connected in the call centre and cameras are also a big no-no including those on mobile phones.
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I have slowly been moving my service providers to those that provide UK only support. I have told Vodafone to get stuffed after four years because of their Indian call centres and the problems which arises as a result.
Then there is the ISP call centres which I have to call a lot because of my job. Nothing irritates me more than a heavy Indian accent I cannot understand while trying to explain something technical. I usualy just say look I am not happy can you please pass me onto somebody else, which is usualy a UK based customer relations workers :p.
Let the big banks do what they want, we cannot be held to ransom by their threats any more. Hopefully enough of their customers might protest and switch banks.
The data may well still be stored locally in the UK but India would probably have access to it.
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My son lost his Edinburgh based job 2 years ago when the work was sent to India. We will not argue about about the work being better here / cheaper India but he lost his job of 15 years service (since leaving Uni!)
3 months later he suceeded in getting a new job in Glasgow - it turns out that the International Company set up the Glasgow office with the idea of saving money.
Centres were then London, New york & Tokyo - Glasgow was given outsourced London work - he got £50K / year salary & pension etc - in London they pay £70K for the same grade employee.
Most of his daily dealings are with INDIAN Staff who look after the computer hardware - salary in Indian staff is £5K for TOP TECHNICAL EMPLOYEE.
You could not make up such a convoluted story.
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>>Nothing irritates me more than a heavy Indian accent I cannot understand <<<
Sometimes just as bad if the call centre is in Ireland or North of Scotland!
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Situation clearly and excellently explained by Humph, as ever. Consumers want the cheapest price for a product, and companies' directors have a duty, in the words of the Companies Act, to 'promote the success of the company' - i.e. to make money.
I agree there's no easy way round the inevitable consequence of the above - the use of cheaper materials and labour by outsourcing abroad. The only ways we can alleviate this are:
- by doing all we can to export our products to countries who need them and will buy them: I'm thinking particularly or our service industries such as my own - training
- by selling products, both here and abroad, on quality. There are buyers who will pay more for a better product (and some who will pay more for a product that looks better but isn't, e.g. Mercedes cars): UK industries - and again service industries in particular -need to make sure that we provide those products.
Edit - as suggested by FB, there'a another window of opportunity - move workplaces out of London! Office costs and London weighting for staff are an expense that can be easily avoided for many businesses who with modern communications could work anywhere in the UK.
Last edited by: Avant on Sat 2 Oct 10 at 12:16
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Which was what the BBC has parlty done by moving five departments to Manchester (well Saford) from next year. Although I think that move is more about politics than actual money saving.
Labour had a great plan to move a lot of Whitehall departments to Manchester too but I can't see this going ahead now.
I don't think any of us have a problem with goods being made in cheaper countries, the problem is if the high tech and highly skilled jobs all move to India what will be the UK be left with?
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I dont have a problem with things manufactured abroad my ipod is and very well made it is to
I Registered a PAYG Phone once, and was put through to India
I was put through to a guy called "Richard" who (with a very strong Indian Accent) told me that Darlington (where I live) was a very nice place, and how he likes it so much.
That is blatent lying, and I have a issue with that, even putting on a false name is still lying to me. if he said what his name really was, and didnt tell me what a desirble place Darlington is to live then I wouldnt have a issue with that at all.
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Had some cold callers on the phone all with anglicized "Christian" names all with very Asian accents - they ended the day I did the "Yes" trick.
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touched on but not explored
big business rules the world followed by china and then probably gangsters
most governments are only the puppets of those really in charge
oh and why is a mars bar £2 in italy ,scandelousk............
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>> big business rules the world
and our politicians, national and local, gave it to them. I was in Leighton Buzzard this morning. The market is still on the main street, but there are few customers and like nearly every weekly market I know it is noticeably smaller than even 3 years ago. All but two bakers' shops have gone, the last one to close being replaced by a charity shop. The Swan, an old coaching house I stayed at 20 years ago, is boarded up.
The municipal car parks charge 50p. Did somebody say to Tesco, Safeway and Aldi
"...tell you what - we'll give you permission to build a supermarket 200 yards from the town centre. You can have your own flat free car parks. We'll make sure we charge people to park anywhere else, so you won't need to worry about the high street competition".
If not, they might as well have, and it has happened to a thousand towns.
Now the supermarkets are cranking up the takeover. The residents of Linwood were overjoyed to hear that Tesco was going to step in and rebuild their run down town centre. Then they heard who was behind the effective destruction of it in the first place...
thescotsman.scotsman.com/news/New-39Tesco-town39-row-as.6505632.jp
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That wouldn't be the same supermarket that has a string of companies in the Cayman Islands named after various hughes of colour to avoid £1bn. in tax and the same co. which offshored to Bangalore.
As they say every little helps...
Last edited by: gmac on Sat 2 Oct 10 at 13:35
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Overseas students from all over but especially India and Pakistan have a wish to be called - Colin, David etc etc.
I used to sell College and Uni Software for College Student info - there were the fields for their names - first name, middle, family name etc BUT there was also another field for a name to be inserted.
Known as / called.......... Initially i thought it was for nickname or short name - William, (Billy, Will etc)
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The Christian first name thing seems to be a Seikh tradition. All the Seikhs I know all have an English name. Bobby, David, Tony are all some I know but its not their real name but but they never used their real name.
All the Muslims I know tend to use their real name but they always seems to be simple names which translate well in English where as Seikh names often do not.
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Our company (wonder if it's not the same as FB's son) has a Mumbai operation these days (fairly new), but it's fair to say all monetary value is completely extracted from the Indian operation.
Although we pay wages, we don't really pay much else. There's as good as no other benefit to India of us being there (cynical staff would argue there's no benefit to us either :-) other than the folks who are employed at ~£6k a year or whatever.
In the UK it's different. Our company is squarely a "giver", a net benefit to UK plc.
Our Mumbai operation is frequently referred to as a bonded warehouse - it's operated that way.
Last edited by: Skoda on Sat 2 Oct 10 at 14:35
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>> The Christian first name thing
>>
There are a number of reasons for this in India and in Britain.
1. India is a secular state, with approximately 24 million Christians.
2. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_India "Today Christians are considered to be one of the most progressive communities in India.[71] Urban Christians are to a greater extent influenced by European traditions which is considered an advantage in the business environment of urban India; this is given as an explanation for the large number of Christian professionals in India's corporate sector.[72] The Christian church runs thousands of educational institutions which have contributed to the strengthening of Christian culture in India."
3. The Christian population has better standard of English (although with an Indian accent0 and tends to be those employed by foreign outsourcers.
4. When Hindu, Tamil, Muslim employees are taken on for call centre jobs, they are given Christian names to be used when conversing with customers. This is imposed by the Employers, to make it easier for the customers to get their tongues round the indigenous names.
5. The latter principle is applied by immigrant populations here, who want to show a willingness to integrate and want to make it easier for their hosts to remember/speak their names. This applies whether you are Indian, Hungarian,German, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, etc. as can be witnessed from the names adopted by many refugees who have settled since the 2nd world war. Examples can be found in the English names adopted by many successful people in the UK.
This report is worth a read www.neon.org.nz/newsarchive/asianjobs/
(note "pakeha" = white )
I don't know if it is true, but I have heard it said that the Chinese give all foreigner workers a Chinese name.
Last edited by: John H on Sat 2 Oct 10 at 15:19
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from a Radio Five Live survey
"CVs from six fictitious candidates - who were given traditionally white, black African or Muslim names - were sent to 50 firms by Radio Five Live.
White "candidates" were far more likely to be given an interview than similarly qualified black or Asian "names". "
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When Hindu, Tamil, Muslim employees are taken on for call centre jobs, they are given Christian names to be used when conversing with customers. This is imposed by the Employers, to make it easier for the customers to get their tongues round the indigenous names.
Must be quite awful for them that. I'd be offended if it was the other way around !
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>> Must be quite awful for them that. I'd be offended if it was the other
>> way around !
>>
Can't locate the study which reported on that, but can find this one:
"New research, undertaken by the English Faculty of Oxford University, examines in detail the language and semantics that call centre staff are now trained to use and apply. It proves - as if we didn't already instinctively know it - that the communication style adopted by the management of many companies and then imposed on call centre staff is based on "a North American style of familiarity, which may not be accepted in the countries to which it is exported."
Dr.Kristina Hultgren, who led the research, looked at call centre practice in Denmark, Hong Kong, the Philippines and the UK and found that across the world call centre staff increasingly are required by company policy to use US-style pleasantries when dealing with customers.
Further they are explicitly instructed to apply such norms irrespective of the country and culture of those with whom they are interacting. To quote a call centre handbook, their job is to "simulate a personal relationship with the customer to make up for the removal of face-to-face interaction".
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Despite the fact that it has the reserve effect - certainly in the case I referred to.
Being referred to by my first name (I use my middle name) by anyone instantly puts me on my guard.
I've had a lot of dealings with Carole Nash Insurance over the last year or so (chopping an changing cars and bikes) and their north western based call centre is spot on for a conversation with a service provider....as is Smile bank, polite and personable without being over familiar, Smile is also based in the north west.
In fact I think the only foreign call centre I have (involuntary) had contact with using these silly Anglisised names that clearly don't match the caller's ethnicity is that "lifestyle survey" one - as I say once I use the Yes treatment to them they haven't bothered calling back ! (they were calling every other day at one point).
Last edited by: Pugugly on Sat 2 Oct 10 at 16:53
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How awful must these Polish people feel:
www.polishforums.com/genealogy-ancestry-6/surnames-anglicized-12007/
"One of my cousins migrated to Canada and changed his surname from Przystawski to Preston."
"my name zygmunt bogdanislaw barankierowczek was changed to "ted brown" when i came to america"
:-)
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I agree echos of American slaves adopting the owner's surname, don't believe that still goes on in C21.
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My favourite call centre story has some relevance to this discussion.
A friend of mine worked for the London Electricity Board (LEB) call centre in Sunderland, Tyne and Wear.
Part of his job was taking calls from LEB's domestic customers who had fallen behind with their bills.
As you may imagine there were some fractious exchanges, but my pal was amused by one Londoner who finished his call by saying: "Anyway, what do you know about money?
"You're only sat up there because you are cheap labour."
Last edited by: Iffy on Sat 2 Oct 10 at 18:01
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Pedant mode on.
Guys, guys....I know we are becoming a secular society and losing our churches etc., but you (except PU ?) don't seem to be fully appreciating the precise meaning of what you are saying:
“The Christian first name thing seems to be a Seikh tradition.”
“When Hindu, Tamil, Muslim employees are taken on for call centre jobs, they are given Christian names to be used when conversing with customers.”
They may be first names, westernised names even - but Seikhs, Muslims et al do not get Christian names !
Pedant mode off.
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate on Sat 2 Oct 10 at 21:25
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Pedant mode on - what's a Seikh?
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Seikh enough and you'll find out.
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I'll join the pedants. There's no such word as 'outsource'. Or 'mindset' or 'downsize'..... We are still in the UK, aren't we?
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Yes, but even the language has been outsourced now. English is the de facto World Language now. There are far more English speakers outside of the UK than inside it.
Cue Mel Brooks History of the World, French Revolution scenes:
The peasants complaining that they are so poor that they don't even have a language, just an "awtrajus" accent.
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...I'll join the pedants. There's no such word as 'outsource'. Or 'mindset' or 'downsize'...
Nor is there such a word as 'de-arrested'.
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"De-arrest" was a word in S30 PACE Act 1984 - admittedly not a good one, but it was there.
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..."De-arrest" was a word in S30 PACE Act 1984...
Doubt you'll find it in many dictionaries.
Which begs the question: When is a word a word?
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Didn't say I liked it ! :-)
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And I abhor people peppering their sentences with the word 'like'. For example: 'yeah bruv, it was like I was walking down the road...'. Like. Hmm. 'So you weren't actually walking down the road then , you were doing something that bears a resemblance or comparison with walking down the road. Why don't you just tell me what it is that you were doing rather than making me guess?'.
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...I abhor people peppering their sentences with the word 'like'...
There's a common misuse of the word 'like' which I don't, er, like.
Many people use 'like' when they should use 'such as'.
"Pop stars like Robbie Williams make lots of money."
The first clause of that sentence means pop stars, as a group of people, 'like' - are fond of - Robbie Williams.
Not what the writer intended, it should be:
"Pop stars such as Robbie Williams make lots of money."
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You guys are like, sooo right, know what I mean ? Like...
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Iffy, you so ruthlessly expose my 'comprehensive' education. (It wasn't!).
Thanks for that useful input Humph, alas I must go and peel vegetables now.
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Like..Wicked.
Last edited by: Humph D'bout on Sun 3 Oct 10 at 13:52
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That's interesting, they taught me little grammar at my school. Do you think it's too late to invoke the Trade Descriptions act? Or just sue for fraud?
John
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...that's interesting...
The bible for this sort of stuff is the latest edition of Fowler's English Usage.
tinyurl.com/38ct7f7
It runs to about 900 close-typed pages and there are two pages on the use of the word 'like'.
I once tried to plough through that entry, but soon became lost and confused.
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Like Father Ted in the lon-jer-ay section?
John
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Is it wrong that in the time it has taken me to read this thread from start to finish, including the external links, I have started and finished a full tube of BBQ Pringles!
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Yes. Your reading is either too slow (hee hee) or you're eating too fast. Disgusting things anyway. Eat proper crisps and get one of your 5 a day.
John
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...Disgusting things anyway...
I'm quite partial to a Pringle.
They're really bad for you, so they must be nice.
Not sure I could do a tube in a sitting.
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pringles pale into the sunset compared to an Aldi thick cut crisp.. 8 for 99p.. Much more of them, better tasting and cheaper..
pringles are just very expensive not very good crisps...
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>pringles are just very expensive not very good crisps...
madf, may I be allowed to correct you? Pringles are not crisps, they are savoury snacks...
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>> There's a common misuse of the word 'like' which I don't, er, like.
>>
>> Many people use 'like' when they should use 'such as'.
>>
>> "Pop stars like Robbie Williams make lots of money."
Ambiguous, though it could make a kind of sense with a bit of punctuation - consider "Pop stars, like Fred Goodwin, make lots of money".
The more common solecism is surely "It looks like Blackpool are going to beat Liverpool" rather than "as if"?
We haven't had a good pedantry thread for a while. I once said to a very pedantic colleague "Are you a member of the Society of Pedants?". His reply was "Don't you mean the Society for Pedants, for people who enjoy the society of pedants?".
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Pedants rule O.K.
. . . or rather, they exhibit several of the qualities traditionally associated with leadership.
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...Ambiguous, though it could make a kind of sense with a bit of punctuation - consider "Pop stars, like Fred Goodwin, make lots of money"...
Manatee,
With respect you fail to understand the depth of the problem.
If you accept there is a correct written standard, the word 'like' simply can not mean 'such as' when used after a noun.
There is a perfectly good argument to say English is a living language, so if enough people use 'like' to mean 'such as' it becomes correct.
The matter is further complicated because Fowler says like can mean such as in certain circumstances.
For example: "Something like Araldite might fix Hawkeye's broken guitar," is correct, if I read Fowler correctly, but it does become hellishly difficult to follow.
I reckon using 'such as' in all circumstances is safest because that is never wrong.
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>>Manatee,
>>With respect you fail to understand the depth of the problem.
I usually do, especially when it is more important than a mere matter of life and death.
But (yes I know...) in the example I gave you, you could not substitute "such as" without changing the meaning. Fred Goodwin is not a pop star. Perhaps a better construction would have been "Like Fred Goodwin, pop stars make a lot of money"?
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...Perhaps a better construction would have been "Like Fred Goodwin, pop stars make a lot of money"?...
Starting a sentence with 'like' sounds clumsy to me, but wiki seems to, er, like it, so I think I'm outvoted on that one.
wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_you_start_the_sentence_with_the_word_like
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>>Starting a sentence with 'like' sounds clumsy to me
I thought you'd be after that like a rat up a drainpipe!
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"chap" and "fellah" tagged onto the end of a question - Road Wars type programmes seem to promote it as a way to speak to people....
A particularly lazy and impolite way to address people.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Sun 3 Oct 10 at 18:29
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Yes, even more cringeworthy since they're in public office. Unforgivable.
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I would have said programs like Road Wars always provide a good example of the English language 'going down the pan', but even these days the news channels are at it as well.
On the news channels :-
Jail ---- what ever happened to 'prison' ?
Lawyer --- Solicitor
How long will it be before we are all saying trash instead of rubbish or bins ?
Even my son's driving instructor says 'gas' instead of accelerator.
Ahh the good old days of the A, B, C pedals (accelerator, brake, clutch).
Also (while I am whining), has anyone noticed the shear amount of three letter anagrams now appearing in the work place.
THIS IS BRITAIN, NOT AMERICA !
Rant over (and I feel better for it) :-)
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>Also (while I am whining), has anyone noticed the shear amount of three letter anagrams now appearing..
Don't you mean TLAs?
Kevin...
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Oh here we go.
I just knew someone would start with the three letters. he he
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is that a message------------ from 'the team'
oh i so hate to read that from british companies i deal with :-(
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>> >Also (while I am whining), has anyone noticed the shear amount of three letter anagrams
>> now appearing..
>>
>> Don't you mean TLAs?
>>
>> Kevin...
>>
Doesn't he mean sheer?
The speling on this bored is apalling.
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...Also (while I am whining), has anyone noticed the shear amount of three letter anagrams
>> now appearing..
>>
>> Don't you mean TLAs?...
Anagrams? Perhaps he means LATs.
Acronyms is the word he's looking for.
And while I'm on, 'sheer' in all its forms is superfluous in this instance.
It adds nothing to the sentence and should be left out.
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>> Jail ---- what ever happened to 'prison' ?
Jail? prison? Gaol!
Last edited by: swiss tony on Sun 3 Oct 10 at 23:07
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>> How long will it be before we are all saying trash instead of rubbish or
>> bins ?
>>
>> Even my son's driving instructor says 'gas' instead of accelerator.
>>
>> THIS IS BRITAIN, NOT AMERICA !
>>
Fully Agree I cannot stand Americanisms, and mis spelling of words that seem to intrude over here
eg Color, Favor, Program
Makes me very annoyed when I see it
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There's a sound historical reason why they changed the spellings.
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Was it something to do with outsourcing or the economy ?
:-)
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...Program...
That's an interesting one.
It may originate in America, but common usage on both sides of the Atlantic is to use 'program' for a series of instructions, often a computer program, and to use 'programme' for a broadcast on television or radio.
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Funny how Wireless made a comeback, albet for different technology..
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...Wireless...
Yes, and I would take the original 'wireless' to mean an item with printed circuit boards and transistors instead of valves, which meant very few wires inside.
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I don't know how long the word was around but I always related it to a valve radio, and then transistor for its newer version - an abbreviation of which has an altogether newer meaning !
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I thought 'wireless' referred to the internal construction of the new-fangled transistor radios, which had very few wires.
'Wireless' did not refer to the way in which the signal was received, which it does now.
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I feel it's to do with the fact that a radio receiver was not connected by a wire to the transmitting source and nothing to do with the internal workings of either device.
Really must get on with some work. Please stop distracting me.
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I think you're right Humph - my gran used to call her radio a wireless and I carried on the tradition !
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...I feel it's to do with the fact that a radio receiver was not connected by a wire to the transmitting source...
Radiograms were called just that, and they were not connected to the transmitting source.
I'm fairly certain I heard the phrase 'wireless radio', and then 'wireless' used to refer to transistorised radio sets.
Transistors were quite an innovation in radios, there was no warm-up time and they were much more robust.
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Wireless communication is the transfer of information over a distance without the use of enhanced electrical conductors or "wires".[1]
according to a sourced Wicki definition.
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My dad was born in 1907 and all radios were wirelesses as far as he was concerned. Now can I get on please?
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It would be interesting to look up 'wireless' in a dictionary published in the 1960s or earlier.
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A truly "wireless" radio, which is only a little larger than a flashlight bulb and can be plugged into the human ear, has been developed by two German Engineers.
Miami News, Mar 16th 1958
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www.wirelesscommunication.nl/reference/chaptr07/history.htm
Earliest reference BBC in 1923 apparently.
Now if you don't mind...
:-)
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My dear mother's Oxford Concise Dictionary (1934)
Wireless = Receiving set or broadcast or programme radio.
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...My dear mother's Oxford Concise Dictionary (1934)...
Can't argue with what is now known as the COD - Concise Oxford Dictionary.
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Tesla gave a talk on "Wireless" back in 1919 an predates that to 1893 ! Looking for the word "dongle" now, apparently that was first used on the Western front in 1915.
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Read these two recent articles
3Oct2010
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8040041/Boom-time-about-to-take-off-with-Airbus-in-Bangalore.html
"Malhoutra bought Bristol-based Oldland Aerospace because "we could machine it cheaper in the UK than we could here".
"Not everything can be made cheaper in China and India," he says. "The complexity of the machining required for this part needs very specialised equipment."
The cost of capital to buy the equipment was 2pc in the UK, compared with 12pc in India, and as the process is largely automated, there was little saving on labour. There are about 50 staff at the site in Bristol, but Malhoutra says it is "bursting at the seams" and he hopes to increase the workforce to up to 150 people, as Dynamatics is bidding for more work from Airbus."
2Oct2010
www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/8038768/Airbus-looks-to-India-to-bridge-skills-gap.html
"At its base in Bangalore, Airbus has 160 engineers working on the A350 and A380 programmes in conjunction with staff in France, Germany and Britain.
The company plans to have 200 staff at the engineering centre by the end of the year and 400 by 2013.
India produces around 350,000 engineering graduates a year, about 25pc of which Airbus describes as "employable".
"I don't think 400 is going to be the final number, there is a huge pool of talent we can tap into," said Mr Enders. "In terms of the work we sub-contract, there's a lot more to come."
Mr Enders said jobs at Airbus's manufacturing and design sites in Filton and Broughton, Toulouse, and Hamburg are not as risk from work being done in India for now."
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I particularly like: 'we could machine it cheaper...'. Wonderful. Presumably it could be manufactured or made for less? One wonders how you 'machine' something? I dunno, I'm just a fick copper. (Well that statement will keep this thread running I'm sure!).
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>> I'll join the pedants. There's no such word as 'outsource'. Or 'mindset' or 'downsize'..... >> We are still in the UK, aren't we?
>>
>> made for less? One wonders how you 'machine' something? I dunno, I'm just a fick
>> copper. (Well that statement will keep this thread running I'm sure!).
>>
Yes, your above two posts confirm that you are indeed a fick copper, who at the very least needs to learn English. Look up your dictionary to understand the meaning of "machine" as a verb.
>> They may be first names, westernised names even - but Seikhs, Muslims et al do not get >> Christian names !
>>
Dulwich Estate - Anyone of any religion can be given a Christian name. Being given a Christian name does not mean that the person is Christian or has been christened/baptised. I do accept that I was sloppy in referring to "Christian" names when in fact I meant "Anglicised names".
Last edited by: John H on Mon 4 Oct 10 at 11:43
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The use of the term 'Christian name' for one's given name is widely misunderstood outside the 'anglo' world. After a few embarassing exchanges with colleagues of non UK extraction I've adopted the use of forename in work exchanges and its the normal usage on official forms in both government and commerce.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 4 Oct 10 at 12:27
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>> >> They may be first names, westernised names even - but Seikhs, Muslims et al
>> do not get >> Christian names !
>> >>
>> Dulwich Estate - Anyone of any religion can be given a Christian name. Being given
>> a Christian name does not mean that the person is Christian or has been christened/baptised.
>> I do accept that I was sloppy in referring to "Christian" names when in fact
>> I meant "Anglicised names".
No you were not sloppy. You said they were given Christian names for the purposes of making telephone calls. That is absolutely correct in English English use.
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John H - Surely it's a transitive verb requiring an object?
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...Surely it's a transitive verb requiring an object?...
Some 'fick copper' he turned out to be.
I think the modern name is 'noun verbs', and a good example is 'fax'.
A noun to begin with, but now also a verb.
"I am faxing a copy."
"The faxed copy is here."
"Fax me a copy."
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I'm lost Iffy. I am indeed fick. ready to learn though John, No need to be so nasty!
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...I am indeed fick...
I don't think so, you know more about transitive verbs and objects than I do.
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I assume it's a sort of dressed up verb with lippy and a 5pm shadow ?
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>> Some 'fick copper' he turned out to be.
I flinched when I read that. Obviously lived in Germany too long, where "fick" is a very rude word.
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Come on you lot, I'd hoped for a barrage when I confessed I'm a fick copper. Far too restrained!
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...Come on you lot, I'd hoped for a barrage when I confessed I'm a fick copper. Far too restrained...
We're not here just for your amusement, you know.
I've known one or two coppers who I thought were genuinely thick.
I've known a lot more who act thick, but are anything but.
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It was a bit of a fait accompli Woodster to be fair...
:-)
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French now eh? I'm ready for a fight....
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Watch it, I'll get my mate Dave on to you. He's got cowboy boots y'know. Pointy ones.
:-)
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...I'll get my mate Dave on to you...
And he likes to batter people, although that thread seems to have vanished.
Perhaps I imagined it.
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...Don't mention the war ! ...
Or in this case, don't mention the walkover.
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>>>Can't argue with what is now known as the COD - Concise Oxford Dictionary.
To anyone under 15 COD is the $billion selling Call of Duty video game.
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I've got COD 4 for Mac if anyone fancies it - £15.00 to Bobby's charity secures it.
(subject to Gift Aid of course)
Last edited by: Pugugly on Mon 4 Oct 10 at 14:52
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I've got a very healthy respect for men in pointy boots, they like to do that lion dancing thing. Well 'ard.
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Give me a fick copper anyday Woodster, far better that those pendantic clever clogs we have on here today:)
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Mon 4 Oct 10 at 15:24
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...those pendantic clever clogs...
You can't mean me, surely?
I've never worn a pendant in me life.
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>> THIS IS BRITAIN, NOT AMERICA
English has become an international language because of USA and not UK.
USA, China, India etc. have more English speaking population than UK. So they will shape the English language more in future than UK.
The outsourcing is also direct manifestation of colonialism rule. Other European countries are much less affected by outsourcing as they are somewhat protected from (skilled) foreign workers due to language barrier.
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It's those cat's again!
Pat
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...those cat's again!...
Pat,
Simple plural, so no apostrophe.
I've had an idea, I'll teach you to use apostrophes if you will teach me how to drive a lorry.
We each provide the other's equipment, you find a lorry for me to train in, and I'll supply pencil and paper for your sessions.
Can't say fairer than that, can I?
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I'd be wasting my time Iffy, you'd be useless, you'd never get past the first road sign before your attention drifted.
I'm going off for a sulk now!
pat
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...you'd never get past the first road sign before your attention drifted...
Attention span of a two-year-old.
Can't argue with that.
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Thanks Pat. Ermm, I don't like to mention it but I think Iffy's making a poor attempt to chat you up. That old 'teach me to drive in your cab' line. Doesn't fool me. Thought I oughta warn ya, like.
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He'd soon lose his equilibrium on those bouncy air assisted seats, W:)
Pat
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Wooh!!! Iffy, you've pulled!
John
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...Wooh!!! Iffy, you've pulled!...
Proof of the old adage: opposites attract.
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...Beauty & the beast?...
You might be brave enough to call Pat a beast, but I'm not.
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I think you just did. I was thinking the other way around actually :-)
John
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Than you John:)
Iffy, you can come down to the Training Day next year and I'll teach to reverse with style while you sort my grammar out!
Pat
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Don't do it Pat. You're too good for the likes of him, with his smooth Southern ways, coming up North and getting the girls swooning with his use of the subjunctive. :-)
John
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...I'll teach to reverse with style while you sort my grammar out!...
Does one learn to go backwards first?
Sounds hazardous to me, but you're the boss.
The bicker potential of you and me in the same cab would be enormous.
It's almost worth doing to see how many minutes - or seconds - would pass before we fell out.
As regards your grammar, there's not much wrong with that, but your punctuation needs a bit of attention.
High bicker potential again, but much less chance of damage to the built environment.
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By going backwards first Iffy, I will have taken you right out of your comfort zone and tipped the scales in my favour!
Bicker potential?............The Flying Witch doesn't bicker, just ask anyone I've worked with!
Pat
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I had to google subjunctive:)
Mmmm...moody, yes!
But you never have trouble understanding what I type so does my punctuation really matter?
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Tue 5 Oct 10 at 08:52
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...But you never have trouble understanding what I type so does my punctuation really matter?...
Arguably not, but if we sorted out the apostrophe, you would be cooking on decent written English gas.
As regards the lorry, I wouldn't be that comfortable going forwards, let alone backwards.
I have this vision of pulling out of the yard and taking the nearside gatepost with me.
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Iffy you shouldn't be calling Pat a nearside gatepost!
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Would you be stirring it ever so slightly, Woodster?
pat
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He started it...
Idle hands and all that Pat and just jesting as you know. Back to work tomorrow. Just debating going out for a ride (pedalling) or cleaning the Skod. Musing over the loss of the child benefit, which is fair enough and I support it, but a little odd that 2 earners just below the 40% bracket will still get it. Madness. Sorry, off thread now, perhaps I should start a new one.
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>>Losing Child Benefit...............
Depends on your income being well above or just above roughly £44,000 per year
Let us say you earn £50K, pay £6,500 / yr into a pension fund - employer scheme and and Voluntary schemes. Your £50K - £6,500 = £43,500 Less personal allowances - say £6,500 takes you below the 40% limit.
If you have say 2 kids Family allowance = £1700 / year
Your £6500 into the pension fund is 6500 x 0.8= £5200 net less £1700 Family allowance = £3500.
Your Pension of £6500 is really a net £3500 which is a bargain until the Insurance Company mugs you with fees and charges.
A former Employer of mine reckoned their internally managed fund + outside advisers cost about 30-40% less than an Insurance Company backed scheme. Mind you you have to be a big employer to run your own scheme or a very wealthy employer - preferable both. Pension day is tomorrow!
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Well, I'm working really hard here!
I've agreed to do some training for another training company, to their customers in my area, but I have to go to Braintree tomorrow to learn how to deliver the courses 'their' way.
Nothing wrong with that, but I like my way:)
It also means I have to wear skirts which has prompted a major wardrobe search this morning and I still can't find one.
I use the casual approach, they use the formal one but hopefully we can meet somewhere in the middle!
Pat
Last edited by: pda on Tue 5 Oct 10 at 12:13
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Some minister on radio 2 explaining that to have evened out the child benefit to prevent the anomaly of 2 £43k earners still receiving the benefit, would have been too bureaucratic, itself costing more money to administer.
Lovely Braintree then Pat. Are you based in Essex?
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No, I'm based in the northern part of Cambridgeshire, so I have to tackle the M11 tomorrow:)
Pat
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You've told Iffy where you are now!
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...You've told Iffy where you are now!...
You don't have to be a copper to work that out, although I think Pat removed her profile a while ago.
When are you back to work, Woodster?
I feel we should be getting a little more for our money than mischievous posts on C4P.
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Steady! Back tomorrow. We still average out over a 13 week period at 40 hours a week, although in my case quite a few more (and no, I don't get overtime.) 6 days on and 4 days off for me. First 4 days at 10 hours, last 2 at 8 hours. Once or twice in the 13 week period an additional day must be worked to make the hours right. That's not at the individuals choice, it's when they're told. Value for money? Impossible for me to distance myself from the occupation and fairly judge. Those awful TV programmes are just embarrassing to be frank. It would be fairer to follow me round for a day or two and see all the different aspects I'm trying to juggle, but it wouldn't be 'in your face' TV. Your job?
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...Steady! Back tomorrow...
Me too.
I'd find all those shifts too disruptive, irrespective of the total hours worked.
There's plenty of people work harder than I do, and you might well be one of them.
I think all anyone expects from a police officer in that respect is that he - or she - pulls their weight.
My guess is the members of the C4P constabulary do at least that.
I also reckon the days of an un-glorious career in the police force spent shirking year in, year out, are largely over, although you will know much more about that than I.
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The inevitable consequence of the lust for the cheapest in everything.
If goods were taxed according to the distance they've traveled then we might not buy so much from the far East.
Even the Govt. is waking up to the fact we need to 're-balance' our economy. Better late than never, shame it took 30 years to see the light.
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Outsourcing and the Economy - Redviper
