Is it me?
This seems to be a more friendly version of what existed already, with some friction removed.
Amazingly, that has been achieved through a sensible conversation, unlike the existing NIP which was 'negotiated' in a spirit of aggressiveness towards the EU and with ludicrous publicly announced conditions precedent making a satisfactory outcome almost impossible.
There's a fig leaf for the DUP saboteurs, in the 'Stormont Break' which, whilst the ECJ will still have control of EU laws applying in NI gives them a veto on changes. I'm not sure I've got that entirely right but I don't think it matters much. Presumably the roof falls in if they actually exercise it.
As for this from Sunak:
"... he said if his deal was accepted, Northern Ireland would be in a "unique position in the entire world, European continent, in having privileged access not just to the UK home market, which is enormous, fifth biggest in the world, but also the European Union's single market. Nobody else has that."
Didn't the entire UK have it before the Brexit hijack? Can we have a deal for the rest of the UK please, like we had before 2019?
The truth is that NI does not really have this, because there is still a border in the Irish Sea, albeit with a green lane and a red lane, which the EU actually proposed to the UK years ago. I'm thinking the DUP might actually work this out soon.
I suppose if Sunak can get them to swallow it, that will be some sort of diplomatic victory. If.
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>>
>> As for this from Sunak:
>> "... he said if his deal was accepted, Northern Ireland would be in a "unique
>> position in the entire world, European continent, in having privileged access not just to the
>> UK home market, which is enormous, fifth biggest in the world, but also the European
>> Union's single market. Nobody else has that."
>>
....and all said without a hint of Norn Irony.... ;-)
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DUP won't want a Sinn Fein first minister.
Expect foot/cloven-hoof dragging.
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The significant part is the status of the brexit wing of the party. Their much trumpeted bill overturning the protocol going through parliament is now dead, and there is hardly a murmur from them, JRM saying it was the best that could be achieved, and Boris in a sullen sulk.
Its a breakthrough in post Brexit relations with Europe, that has much to do with the renewed Russian threat and the need for western European solidarity.
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NI was a blindingly obvious unresolved issue when Brexit was forced through. Get Brexit done was the Boris mantra. Any delay would have compromised achievement of his headline.
Aside from the wisdom of Brexit, the deal done was completely sub-optimal. Although the waters have been muddied by the pandemic, even rabid Brexiteers would be hard pressed to claim Brexit has been a success.
Boris and Co do not like the protocol being thrown out, and the implied criticism of that which they signed up to 3 years ago.
They have a choice - throw toys out of the pram only to find that Rishi gets his way anyway courtesy of a Labour opposition, or quietly accept it. The latter seems more likely.
This episode has allowed Rishi to get some good PR from the outcome - solving a real issue, may pave the way to further agreements to improve EU relationships, and assert his leadership over the party. IMHO he has done a good job.
Whether the old guard still want to bring Boris back is debatable - but he risks being seen as embittered and out of touch, not an electoral asset.
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>> The significant part is the status of the brexit wing of the party. Their much
>> trumpeted bill overturning the protocol going through parliament is now dead, and there is hardly
>> a murmur from them, JRM saying it was the best that could be achieved, and
>> Boris in a sullen sulk.
>>
>> Its a breakthrough in post Brexit relations with Europe, that has much to do with
>> the renewed Russian threat and the need for western European solidarity.
Good comment.
Well done Rishi. Just mind your back.
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Just been talking to a customer who has two shoe shops, one just north of the border in NI and the other about ten miles away in the ROI.
In fact her house straddles the border and technically her kitchen is in the south and her sitting room is in the north.
A small family business where stock is shared on a daily basis between the two shops.
If “Mrs Smith” wants a particular style in a size 5 and the branch she is in has sold out, then the normal response was to get it over from the other store the next day etc. However, if she doesn’t buy it in the end, back it goes to be put back into stock where it came from.
Easy and normal sort of thing to happen and handle eh?
Not any more. Preposterous really.
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>> Not any more. Preposterous really.
As there is no border, no security and no checks between NI&RoI it will be business as usual. Everyone knows it, which is why the protocol was needed.
technically now under the new framework, Dog owners in the UK & NI can now move dogs freely, but not into RoI.
Do you really think people who live on the border keep their dogs in one country? Of course they dont, they wander freely across.
The protocol is just for show, and maybe traceability in foodstuff if required.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 28 Feb 23 at 15:46
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That’s just brilliant! ;-)
I must remind my customer that she can only let her dog crap in the front garden as the back garden is over the border so in the South! Marvellous eh?
Last edited by: Runfer D'Hills on Tue 28 Feb 23 at 16:24
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...she could train it to retrieve shoes... ;-)
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It’d struggle with the paperwork though!
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I know I’ve said this before and no apologies for saying it again…
Brexit has killed exporting for so many of our SMEs. It’s just not economical for them or the orders aren’t coming through from Europe.
A classic example is a medium sized engineering firm. They make tools for expensive CNC machines. When a tool breaks a replacement is wanted next day. For the right price the client would fly a part out to pretty much anywhere in Europe before Brexit. Now the paperwork holds the parts up for weeks and no customer is going to have their machine off line for so long.
So since Brexit almost 50% of their sales have gone as have a similar number of very skilled tool makers!
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I’m not sure I can see that the framework changes anything re movement of dogs across the NI/ Ireland border. They remain the same as before the Windsor Framework and are the same as crossing any other border in the EU with a pet. Unless of course you can point me to the the relevant para.
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>> I’m not sure I can see that the framework changes anything re movement of dogs
>> across the NI/ Ireland border.
As my post said, it doesn't. The EU pet rule remains, however the new protocol means that dogs to/from England - Ni no longer have EU restrictions.
My point was that now NI dog owners dont need to meet EU rules, but their dogs can freely wander across the border with the EU (AKA RoI) because no physical border exists
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They need to meet EU rules in the same way any other citizen of any EU country does. It’s exactly the same as say the border between France and Belgium say.
Basically animal should have a microchip and a pet passport.
europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/carry/animal-plant/index_en.htm
I’m sure there are those who don’t bother with the law but that’s unfortunately not confined to NI. and has nothing to do with the protocol.
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>> I’m sure there are those who don’t bother with the law but that’s unfortunately not
>> confined to NI. and has nothing to do with the protocol.
You are wilfully missing the point. Its NOT the same as the border between France and Belgium. The rules are NO LONGER THE SAME between NI and RoI. There is no longer a thing called a European Pet Passport in NI, nor can they get one. (the same way we in the UK can no longer get one). However Ni paddy can, will and does stuff his dog (the one who cant now get a pet passport) in the car to drive, or walk, to his favourite boozer in the RoI
The protocol has changed things. I can now go to NI and do the same thing with my dog. I couldn't before I couldnt get it into NI
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 28 Feb 23 at 19:43
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>>
>>
>> The protocol has changed things. I can now go to NI and do the same
>> thing with my dog. I couldn't before I couldnt get it into NI
>>
...not being a dog owner, I'm not going to vouch for this, but the transportation of pets is a topic of much debate in the motorhome community.
AFAIK, though you can no longer obtain an EU pet passport in the UK, you can, subject to the usual conditions, get an AHC (Animal Health Certificate) that will serve to get your pet into the EU, (and back again). I'm pretty sure this is also the prescribed method for entering NI from GB.
Not cheap, which is why some people have endeavoured (with some success) to get an EU pet passport issued whilst they're abroad.
BUT....
On doing further checks, it would appear that the NI government, in anticipation of pow-wows over the protocol, have in any case suspended any checks on pets since Sept '21, so it's a free-for all to NI (and possibly a documentless back door into the EU ;-).
www.daera-ni.gov.uk/articles/travelling-pets
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>> AFAIK, though you can no longer obtain an EU pet passport in the UK, you
>> can, subject to the usual conditions, get an AHC (Animal Health Certificate) that will serve
>> to get your pet into the EU, (and back again).
It is involved and expensive, The AHC needs to be planned for each trip, is a lot of agro and is expensive. And thats o the way out, it is similar, but not so expensive on the way back. For multiple short trips to the EU its significant barrier.
I'm pretty sure this is
>> also the prescribed method for entering NI from GB.
It was, but is no longer as you say. And as you say a back door into the EU. Its conceivable you as a UK citizen can whip your dog into RoI, and get an EU pet passport there
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“There is no longer a thing called a European Pet Passport in NI, nor can they get one. (the same way we in the UK can no longer get one)”
That’s where you are going wrong:
You are correct in that U.K. citizen can no longer get a pet passport but a Northern Ireland citizen can.
“ Under the NI Protocol, from 1 January 2021, the EU Pet Travel Regulation continues to apply to travel between NI, EU Member States and Third Countries. In other words, NI remains part of the EU Pet Travel Scheme.”
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>> That’s where you are going wrong:
>>
>> You are correct in that U.K. citizen can no longer get a pet passport but
>> a Northern Ireland citizen can.
>>
..well, if we're going to be pedantic, NI is part of the UK (but not GB). ;-)
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>> “ Under the NI Protocol, from 1 January 2021, the EU Pet Travel Regulation continues
>> to apply to travel between NI, EU Member States and Third Countries. In other words,
>> NI remains part of the EU Pet Travel Scheme.”
Thats the OLD protocol, Now - and I quote
No new requirements on moving pets from Northern Ireland to Britain
Pet owners visiting Northern Ireland from Britain (but not travelling on to Ireland) only have to confirm their pet is microchipped and will not move into the EU
Under old rules, pet owners had to have vet-issued health certificate and proof of up-to-date rabies vaccination, while dogs needed tapeworm treatment before every visit
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You are getting muddled.
We were talking about Northern Ireland residents crossing into the Republic with their dogs. For them the Protocol I quoted still applies. Nothing has changed there.
You are now quoting regulations relating to travel between UK and Northen Ireland which do not change the rules between NI and the Republic of Ireland
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>> You are now quoting regulations relating to travel between UK and Northen Ireland which do
>> not change the rules between NI and the Republic of Ireland
Which means NI is No longer in the EU pet passport scheme. You are quoting the Old protocol.
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>>
>> Which means NI is No longer in the EU pet passport scheme. You are quoting
>> the Old protocol.
>>
You might find this Government summary of the new Framework of interest Zero.
www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainer/windsor-framework
“NI pet owners will continue to require an EU pet passport to move their pet to Ireland and the rest of the EU, but still not face any requirements when travelling to and from GB.”
Which is exactly what I said.
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>> “NI pet owners will continue to require an EU pet passport to move their pet
>> to Ireland and the rest of the EU, but still not face any requirements when
>> travelling to and from GB.”
>>
>> Which is exactly what I said.
And mainland Pet owners can now travel to NI without any paperwork. You cant be an area in the EU pet passport scheme and not in the Eu pet passport scheme. Which is what I said.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 3 Mar 23 at 23:25
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Well you actually said:
“The rules are NO LONGER THE SAME between NI and RoI. There is no longer a thing called a European Pet Passport in NI, nor can they get one. (the same way we in the UK can no longer get one”
This was clearly incorrect. The first part of that statement is totally wrong and I never denied the second part. I realise you never admit to error so I will leave it there.
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>> Well you actually said:
>>
>> “The rules are NO LONGER THE SAME between NI and RoI. There is no longer
>> a thing called a European Pet Passport in NI, nor can they get one. (the
>> same way we in the UK can no longer get one”
>> This was clearly incorrect.
No its not, because I can now get European Pet passport. I can take my dog into NI, with no pre restrictions, get a European Pet passport* (legally and valid) but one I am not entitled to because I am not in the EU.
*at the time I wrote that, it was not clear because the detail had not been clarified that NI could still issue pet passports, because it would be a free for all.
Still doesn't alter the fact that NI livestock (inc dogs) freely wander across the border. With no restrictions.
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Utter tosh.A Trumpian word salad.
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Meantime the EU has rabies all over the place - Holland has built a fence on it's border with Germany to try to keep out rabid dogs/foxes/wolves et al.
That is only the tip of the rabies problem - Eastern EU countries rabies is very common.
On the other hand the last UK case of rabies was 1922/1923. There have been UK cases of rabies with imported dogs but this was in quarantined conditions.
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Rabies with domestic dogs need not be a problem. Effective canine vaccinations exist, just makes testing populations difficult (Which is why cattle are not vaccinated against TB)
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>> Meantime the EU has rabies all over the place - Holland has built a fence
>> on it's border with Germany to try to keep out rabid dogs/foxes/wolves et al.
Intrigued by where on the border that would be.
Several sources mention bats in Holland and Germany as Rabies risks. At one time there was an issue with foxes in France, particularly in the Ardennes. Cannot find much at all to say Wolves are present in number in either Germany or Netherlands.
Not saying you're wrong, just trying to get a cross check.
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Wolves have no chance getting into Europe.
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Wolves have no chance getting into Europe.
Have you not seen 'The Snow Wolf'? ;)
Last edited by: Fullchat on Wed 1 Mar 23 at 19:37
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More likely the Dutch fence was to keep out swine fever. Germany is essentially rabies free.
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>>
>> Do you really think people who live on the border keep their dogs in one
>> country? Of course they dont, they wander freely across.
>>
....I think it's only O'Schrödinger's dog that's allowed to do that.....
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>> ....I think it's only O'Schrödinger's dog that's allowed to do that.....
Big family with a lot of Mutts.
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>> ....and all said without a hint of Norn Irony.... ;-)
Very good!
And at the same time, I wonder if there is any chance that the rest of the UK might ever be able to get in the same privileged position as NI...?
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 28 Feb 23 at 19:53
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David Frost, our super Brexit negotiator has said the framework is "oversold"
Mr Frost said the new arrangements were "oversold" and do not change the fundamentals of the Northern Ireland Protocol, which was signed by former Prime Minister Boris Johnson and came into force in 2021.
Scuse me Mr Frost, this is lipstick we are putting on your pig
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He's right on that there is still a customs border on the Irish Sea. But you're right about the pig.
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The Windsor Framework - tyrednemotional
