Non-motoring > Energy meters	Miscellaneous
Thread Author: CGNorwich	Replies: 34

New Wed 1 Feb 23 19:37   Energy meters - CGNorwich

The energy companies are coming under a lot of criticism for forcing customers who are greatly in arrears to pay by prepayment meter. In some cases this has meant forced entry with a court order to install the pr payment meters. There is great pressure from some politicians and the other media that this should stop. What nobody seems to say is what is the alternative? If the energy companies are compelled to continue to offer unlimited credit to those already heavily in debt to them who will end up paying? The customers who actually pay their bills obviously. What will the effect that there is no sanction for non payment of your energy bills? Fairly obvious I would say. If society believes that there is a case for supplying free energy to the poor, , is that not for the government to deal with rather than the energy companies. Incidentally I remember that my parents had a slot meter for our gas up to about 1965. Was the norm in those days. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 19:53   Energy meters - Manatee

Part of the perceived problem I think its that prepay is more expensive. That should be dealt with. It makes no sense that poor people should pay more for their energy than the better off. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 20:43   Energy meters - VxFan

>> It makes no sense that poor people should pay more for their >> energy than the better off. I agree, but it's not only poor people who have pre pay meters. A lot of rented houses also have them so the landlord/lady still get their money should the tenant disappear. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 21:25   Energy meters - sooty123

A lot >> of rented houses also have them so the landlord/lady still get their money should the >> tenant disappear. >> What's the rental income to do with utility bills? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 12:39   Energy meters - VxFan

>> What's the rental income to do with utility bills? If the tenant does a runner, then the house owner ends up paying the utility bills. Hence why a lot of rented properties have per pay meters. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 12:49   Energy meters - zippy

>> >> What's the rental income to do with utility bills? >> >> If the tenant does a runner, then the house owner ends up paying the utility >> bills. Hence why a lot of rented properties have per pay meters. >> When I rented I had to tell the power companies that I was responsible for the bills from moving in date. If the owner has told the power company that they have moved out or on the surely they have a case to say it’s not my fault you have extended credit to these people? Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 12:59   Energy meters - sooty123

> >> If the tenant does a runner, then the house owner ends up paying the utility >> bills. Hence why a lot of rented properties have per pay meters. >> I don't think utility companies can come after the LL for unpaid bills. The contract wouldn't be anything to do with them, they aren't using the gas and electric. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 18:40   Energy meters - bathtub tom

>> >> If the tenant does a runner, then the house owner ends up paying the >> utility >> >> bills. Hence why a lot of rented properties have per pay meters. >> >> >> >> I don't think utility companies can come after the LL for unpaid bills. The contract >> wouldn't be anything to do with them, they aren't using the gas and electric. A local landlord has recounted how a tenant (who did a runner) had a pre-pay meter installed in the property, the landlord didn't know about. The landlord is having to buy numerous pre-payment cards before the power is restored. The landlord cannot get the pre-payment meter removed because of the previous bad history of the property. This means energy to the property is at a premium rate, making the property less than desirable. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 Feb 23 12:38   Energy meters - VxFan

>> I don't think utility companies can come after the LL for unpaid bills. SSE (now OVO) did for a friend of mine who rents out a couple of flats in Oxford. Went through the courts who sided on my friend. That's why he now has pre pay meters installed in the flats to prevent any further aggro. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 21:34   Energy meters - Clk Sec

>> A lot of rented houses also have them so the landlord/lady still get their money should the tenant disappear. I believe that would depend on the terms of the tenancy agreement. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 21:34   Energy meters - CGNorwich

The actually difference is not actually that great. Currently £2,500 for average dual fuel for average household as against £2,600 for prepayment meter. I dont think the difference is really the problem The point at is should the Energy Companies be liable to provide potentially unlimited credit to those already in debt. They sem to be being made the scapegoat but it seems to me they have little alternative if they are not to accrue ever increasing debt which they can only pass on to their other customers A one time in the not too distant past you would be cut off for non-payment. The current system was introduced as a fairer alternative. If we are now saying that, in effect, no one need ever pay their energy bill what sanction do they have? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 23:42   Energy meters - zippy

>>Currently £2,500 for average dual fuel for average household as against £2,600 for prepayment >>meter. I dont think the difference is really the problem £100 is just under a third of one month's universal credit for a single person . It'll hurt. £2,600 is 65% of the entire years allowance. Now I know the £2,600 is the average but even for a single bedroomed flat it's still going to take a chunk of what they are supposed to live on. However the extra fees or losses are subsidised, someone will pay. It's either going to be energy customers through their bills or tax payers through subsidies to the energy companies. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 21:28   Energy meters - sooty123

>> The energy companies are coming under a lot of criticism for forcing customers who are >> greatly in arrears to pay by prepayment meter. In some cases this has meant forced >> entry with a court order to install the pr payment meters. There is great pressure >> from some politicians and the other media that this should stop. >> Nearly all of them are rubber stamped by magistrates, there's no actual investigation when the utility companies bring them to court. They provide a list of names, within minutes there could be hundreds ok'd for court ordered access. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 21:41   Energy meters - CGNorwich

"Nearly all of them are rubber stamped by magistrates, there's no actual investigation when the utility companies bring them to court. They provide a list of names, within minutes there could be hundreds ok'd for court ordered access." What sort of investigation should there be then? The only information the energy company have and can supply is the customer is considerably in arrears with their payments and refuses or ignores requests for access for installation of a meter. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 21:45   Energy meters - sooty123

What sort of investigation should there be then? The only information the energy company have >> and can supply is the customer is considerably in arrears with their payments and refuses >> or ignores requests for access for installation of a meter. >> That's assumes they don't make a mistake. What other organisations can get court order access to a home by just producing an excel spreadsheet with a name and address? Does that seem a thoroughly investigated procedure? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 22:04   Energy meters - CGNorwich

What other information should they provide? As far as I have read there is no dispute that the customer owes the company money. The issue is that some of those being cut off claim to have no money and so are unable to obtain gas or energy. The enrgy company is not in a position to ascertain this The implication is that the energy supplier should continue to supply them in these circumstances. Now I am sure that there are indeed families in this unfortunate position and who need assistance but is ti the energy companies function to provide such assistance at the cost of thier other customers? Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 22:10   Energy meters - sooty123

Would you be happy with the burden of proof that is required? I don't think many people would be happy with that. Self regulation is no regulation at all. There maybe people who willfully refuse payment, but you can't lump everyone together. I don't think many reasonable people would want that. Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 1 Feb 23 at 22:12 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 22:31   Energy meters - CGNorwich

I'm not saying that people wilfully refuse payment or otherwise. All I am saying is that the only information that the company can supply to the court is the amount amount of debt. In all of the cases I have read the issue is not wheter the customer owes the money or not but rather that they claim not to be able to pay and that they will suffer hardship if a meter iinstalled. This is no doubt true in a lot of cases but how can an energy company possibly know or investigate who is genuinly in that position? All I am saying is that this is an issue for the Government to resolve . If it is considered socially desirable that these people are to be assisted with thier bill then it is for the government to do so and not make the energy companies into a scapegoat. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 22:38   Energy meters - sooty123

. All I am saying is >> that the only information that the company can supply to the court is the amount >> amount of debt. If indeed their information is correct. >> >> All I am saying is that this is an issue for the Government to resolve By doing what? As you suggested in another thread, there are no more carrots left. Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 23:01   Energy meters - Dave_

Water supplies can’t be cut off for non-payment. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 17:39   Energy meters - Bromptonaut

>> I'm not saying that people wilfully refuse payment or otherwise. All I am saying is >> that the only information that the company can supply to the court is the amount >> amount of debt. If the supplier has done what is required of them before applying for a warrant then, unless their customer has ignored them completely, there will be a file of info. This should cover the make up of the occupying household and anything information regarding employment and income that has fallen out of their processes. They might also have discovered whether anyone has health issues, the presence of youngsters with disabilities and whether credit checks available to the company tells the supplier anything about the household. That information should be supplied to the Magistrate or court officer with delegated powers who signs for a warrant of entry to be authorised. The issue that seems to be emerging is that nobody signing these things off is doing any of that legwork. Warrants are authorised in massive batches in very short timeframes. Forty years ago the water companies were cutting people off for not paying their bills. That facility was removed because water is essential to life and the health of others. Where do we think poo etc goes if it cannot be flushed into the sewer? Are we now at a point where the same principle applies to electricity? I'm not saying for certain that it does but I think the idea is not without some merit. There are plenty of sticks, up to and including charges on their homes and foreclosing, available for dealing with those who choose not to pay. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 2 Feb 23 at 17:41 Reply to this message | Report message

New Wed 1 Feb 23 23:24   Energy meters - zippy

>>What other information should they provide? We are allowed to provide a certified statement of accounts to the court when suing a client or guarantor. The statement of account is basically a summary sheet of the client's current indebtedness. The thing is, any transactions can make that up, including spurious adjustments, ad-hoc charges, miscalculated interest etc. * The courts take the report at face value and it's up to the defendant to prove otherwise. It's not a good position to be in as a defendant when battling against a behemoth of a bank. I guess it's the same for the utilities. *A privately owned bank was notorious for this. They made significant money by putting border line companies in to receivership, they would just withdraw their loan and kill the company's cash-flow and then they charged extortionate fees to the company which were paid out of assets. The fees were effectively hidden in the statement of account. UK Finance, the banks trade body have banned this practice for members. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 08:45   Energy meters - CGNorwich

I have seen no allegations that dispute the indebtedness of the individuals concerned. What is the the issue is that they claim they cannot afford to pay the bills and so believe should be allowed to run up further debt rather than have a pre payment meter installed. I see that at least one suppliers has acceded to this in the face of criticism from the media. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 08:48   Energy meters - Zero

>> have a pre payment meter installed. I see that at least one suppliers has acceded >> to this in the face of criticism from the media. Mostly because of who and how it was done. Breaking into the homes of vulnerable people never goes down terribly well, specially by a supplier making massive windfall profits caused by the energy crisis. In this case, they are fair game Last edited by: Zero on Thu 2 Feb 23 at 08:50 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 12:20   Energy meters - zippy

Jeremy Vine R2 are talking about this now. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 15:01   Energy meters - Manatee

It was on the Today programme too. They aren't supposed to cut off vulnerable people which includes households with children. But they have been doing. The CEO of Centrica (British Gas) said he was appalled with the behaviour of the subcontractor, had suspended terminations and there would be an enquiry. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 16:04   Energy meters - Terry

It is clearly wrong that vulnerable people are cut off. We need some clear guidelines, not the finger pointing and hand wringing that the media and politicians seem to prefer. Those who consume goods and services for which they have contracted to pay are rightly pursued if they fail to pay. Fitting prepayment meters to those addresses where payments due have not been made seems a reasonable solution. Accepting that energy is essential means that some supply should be made even to those who have not met their payment obligations. We need to be clear: - who covers the cost - government grant, energy company from profits, other energy company customers etc. - whether there should be a limit on the amount of energy supplied to non-payers - xx KWH per day or unlimited which would send the message to all consumers "why bother to pay" - how vulnerable is defined (old, children, chronic ailments etc) or should every household get a minimum supply. It would be possible to change pricing structures to allow all households to have the first xx KWH of daily supply free of charge with additional consumption at a higher unit price. Last edited by: Terry on Thu 2 Feb 23 at 16:05 Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 2 Feb 23 19:50   Energy meters - R.P.

when we moved house back in 2011 (2 moves ago!) - The house we bought was new and had been unoccupied for 3 years - so the developer ran the oil heating to avoid problems and consequently needed electricity. He installed a PPM which came a s a bit of surprise the day we moved in. The good-news was that there was around £100.00 of credit - so we had to get the meter changed as quick as the credit ran out, ended up having to top up a couple of times before Scottish Power could do it.....what a faff ! Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 Feb 23 09:58   Energy meters - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/ofgem-tells-suppliers-to-suspend-the-forced-installation-of-prepayment-metres-sky-news-understands-12801726 Unsurprisingly forced PPM have been suspended. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 Feb 23 10:20   Energy meters - zippy

>> news.sky.com/story/ofgem-tells-suppliers-to-suspend-the-forced-installation-of-prepayment-metres-sky-news-understands-12801726 >> >> Unsurprisingly forced PPM have been suspended. >> A good call IMHO seeing how they were forcing them on customers that they had no right to force them on to. Private installer gets a juicy fee for each one installed. It's no wonder that they took advantage and fitted as many as they could. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 Feb 23 17:50   Energy meters - sooty123

news.sky.com/story/why-the-problem-of-prepayment-meters-wont-go-away-for-vulnerable-energy-customers-12802095 Good interview with the CEO of Centrica. Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 Feb 23 18:45   Energy meters - Manatee

A man intelligent enough to know when he's bang to rights I would say. What can't bent and incompetent politicians do that? That said it is a disgrace and I understand that there were incentives behind the 'forced' PPM installations. It's pretty basic to me that if you do that you will get the wrong behaviours, allowing that I haven't heard the whole story. The whole business of customers paying for the bust energy suppliers seems wrong to me, surely the creditors should be the ones to lose out? It seems unlikely that the sums mentioned could arise just through credit balances. I'd like to know how the costs arise. Especially as the "entrepreneurs" with a beneficial interest in these bust companies have probably lost little if anything personally. Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 3 Feb 23 at 18:46 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 Feb 23 19:03   Energy meters - Biggles

The customers are the creditors though. Should the particular ones who chose the wrong supplier pay? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 3 Feb 23 19:36   Energy meters - Manatee

>> The customers are the creditors though. Should the particular ones who chose the wrong supplier >> pay? Only the ones with credit balances, as mentioned. Whatever it is - the wonderful world of privatised energy allows chancers to make a one-way bet and when they don't win, we lose. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Mon 6 Feb 23 15:02   Energy meters - Bromptonaut

The Senior Judge responsible for this stuff is reported to have instructed Magistrates not to issue warrants for the purpose of forced entry to change meters until the energy suppliers have got their ducks properly lined up: www.theguardian.com/money/2023/feb/06/prepayment-meters-forced-installations-england-wales Putting things together from various reports on the radio and print media in the last week the checks/balances that were supposed to protect the sick and vulnerable were not being operated. The whole process, at least so far as some big retail suppliers are concerned, seems to have been contracted to an external provider. That provider's contract was supposed to cover the 'safeguarding' process of calls, letters and home visits. In practice the contract was set up and/or interpreted in such a way that the safeguards were not happening. Instead, staff on the ground were going far to quickly for the 'nuclear option' of a court warrant and getting the meter changed. Reply to this message | Report message