Folks, be aware that you need photo ID for elections from May 23 and from General Elections from October 23.
There are options if you do not have photo ID but you should be thinking about getting these in place sooner rather than later as it's likely to take some time to process (MIL hasn't got any photo ID).
More info here: www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/voter/voter-id/accepted-forms-photo-id
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Shouldn’t think that there’s many who want to vote who don’t have some form of photo id these days.
Mind you it would be simpler if we had ID cards. Oh, I forgot they are an affront to our God given right as Subjects of His Majesty, enshrined in Magna Carta and something only benighted foreigners have aren’t they?
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>> Shouldn’t think that there’s many who want to vote who don’t have some form of
>> photo id these days.
I think you might be surprised how many people don't have the documentation required. When I was doing Universal Credit advice I'd have one or two every week who could not use a passport, driving licence etc and needed a DWP interview to ID themselves by other methods.
Zippy mentions his MiL. Older people, more so women, quite often lack proper ID. Speaking to a solicitor friend (now deceased) a few years ago who referred to being unable to do the required money laundering checks with a recently widowed 80 year old for that reason.
There are also some weird anomalies in what is accepted. For example a London Travelcard issued to a pensioner is but the near identical card issued to a student is not.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 13 Jan 23 at 16:23
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>>There are also some weird anomalies in what is accepted. For example a London Travelcard issued to a pensioner is but the near identical card issued to a student is not.
Not really anomalous, because for the 60+ the 60+ Oyster card applicant has to produce compliant ID to get one i.e.
- Details from your valid, machine-readable passport or your valid UK driving licence (full or provisional)
- A colour image of your valid, machine-readable passport. This must be in .png or .jpg format and be less than 6MB. The image must show your photo, personal details and passport number
- igital photo of you which must be a .jpg, .bmp or .gif file and be less than 6MB
- Debit or credit card registered at your address to confirm you live in a London borough and pay £20
whereas the student only needs a course welcome letter from the college to get the student Oyster card.
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>When I was doing Universal Credit advice I'd have one or two every week
>who could not use a passport, driving licence etc and needed a DWP
>interview to ID themselves by other methods.
Did they reject the interview and forgo any benefits?
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>> Did they reject the interview and forgo any benefits?
Sorry, but I'm missing your point.
They had no driving licence, passport or other acceptable means to complete their ID checks on line via the Government Gateway or similar.
They had to follow an alternative process:
data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2016-0778/Identity_verification_and_standards_of_evidence_v4.0.pdf
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 13 Jan 23 at 22:18
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Presumably the folks that you helped with UC had enough interest to jump through the required hoops to prove who they were to make a claim.
Why should the ability to vote be any different?
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>> Presumably the folks that you helped with UC had enough interest to jump through the
>> required hoops to prove who they were to make a claim.
>>
>> Why should the ability to vote be any different?
I should have thought that was obvious. UC is about paying the bills.
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The point I was making, rather badly, was that when money is involved people accept that proof of id is necessary and they'll put up with jumping through hoops. But when it comes to choosing who is going to run the country or council, and essentially their life, for the next few years it's suddenly too much trouble and folks like Toynbee start frothing at the mouth and shouting 'conspiracy'.
Why something hasn't been done about postal votes baffles me.
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>> Why something hasn't been done about postal votes baffles me.
I agree with you there.
The fact that they want to impose the ID criteria on voting in person whilst not dealing with postal is a very big clue as to why they are doing it - because it will increase their share of the vote through voter suppression.
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>> The point I was making, rather badly, was that when money is involved people accept
>> that proof of id is necessary and they'll put up with jumping through hoops. But
>> when it comes to choosing who is going to run the country or council, and
>> essentially their life, for the next few years it's suddenly too much trouble and folks
>> like Toynbee start frothing at the mouth and shouting 'conspiracy'.
The point is that when benefits are involved you've got several bites at the cherry; if you cannot provide straightforward ID you've got an iterative exploration process involving your PAYE history, previous interaction with DWP etc etc. May take time.
If you rock up to vote after work at 20:00 and turn out to be unable to satisfy ID you're stuffed; no chance to sort it before the polls close at 22:00.
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"If you rock up to vote after work at 20:00 and turn out to be unable to satisfy ID you're stuffed; no chance to sort it before the polls close at 22:00."
That rather presumes that this new requirement for ID comes complely out of the blue with no advertising campaign and no coverage on TV or in the press setting out the requirements before it is implemented which is of course unlikely. We will be besieged by reminders from the government, councils and candidates.
Assuming it is properly promoted shouldn't be a problem. If you are aware of an election you will be aware of the need for valid ID
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 14 Jan 23 at 22:24
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> If you are aware of an election you will be aware of the need for valid ID..
But what if you're aware there's an election but because you're knocking on a bit, like some of us here, you forget to take your id?
I think that's voter suppression of all the forgetful old codgers we're told vote Tory.
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>> But what if you're aware there's an election but because you're knocking on a bit,
>> like some of us here, you forget to take your id?
You go back home and get it?
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It's 20.00 and taken two hours to get there because the rubber bit has come off the bottom of their walking stick.
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>> It's 20.00 and taken two hours to get there because the rubber bit has come
>> off the bottom of their walking stick.
>>
They hijack one of the many mobility scooters always parked outside the polling station striking the occupant to the ground with their walking stick if necessary and speed off at 5 mph to retrieve their id.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 15 Jan 23 at 11:15
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the rubber bit has come
>> off the bottom of their walking stick.
>>
Message me if needed. I have half a dozen spares in the garage !
Ted
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>> I think that's voter suppression of all the forgetful old codgers we're told vote Tory.
This is a bad thing?
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>This is a bad thing?
Which demographics should be discouraged from voting is a whole new ballgame.
Geriatric Tory voters, beige BMW owners, where do you stop?
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>> Geriatric Tory voters, beige BMW owners, where do you stop?
Well Basingstoke should be disenfranchised for a start.
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>>ID Cards...
No, they just cost a fortune, billions wasn't it and that was in the 2000's!
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The average person in London will be recorded on a security camera 300 times a day apparently. In China surveillance is linked to facial recognition - folk can be punished for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
But to protect our civil rights we apparently need to separate passport, tax, health, motoring, etc rather than a simple ID linking the lot. This does not include non-mandatory library cards, student cards, travel cards etc etc. Very 20th C.
Seeing ID cards as a threat to liberty is stable door and horse territory. It's bolted.
Delaying implementation because a few folk will have difficulty a worthy concern, but far exceeded by the damage gone by a reluctance to embrace the second decade of the 21st C.
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>> www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/25/voter-id-laws-what-they-really-are-voter-suppression-and-an-attack-on-young-people
I absolutely agree that contemporary Conservatives are not above any means of younger-voter suppression they can get away with, but Toynbee undermines her own integrity by trotting out the Oyster card thing inaccurately and incompletely. She may well be much admired but I have always found much to dislike in her writing even though I agree with her on a number of things, including religion.
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Interesting. Had no idea about the photo id being needed for elections.
Mrs C has nothing, so had a look. Seems she can get a voter’s certificate, or renew her passport. The former might be free I guess, the latter certainly isn’t. So will see what you actually need to do for the certificate when the application forms are published.
Thanks for the heads up.
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I think I read that out of date photo ID can be used as long as the photo is recognisable, so no need to renew passport. See the link in Zippy's original post.
Last edited by: HughA on Sat 14 Jan 23 at 09:37
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According to Zippy's link above, the only Oyster card which can be used for ID is the Oyster 60+.
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>> According to Zippy's link above, the only Oyster card which can be used for ID
>> is the Oyster 60+.
Correct. But that's because you can only get one with stringent ID requirements, which is not the case for the 18+ card.
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what about postal ballots?
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>> what about postal ballots?
No new ID requirements.
Still ripe for picking.
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I thought that the greatest concern was with postal ballots, in the too difficult pile?
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And back to the issue at hand. Why the need for this? There is no proof of any major voter fraud.
Almost as if there is ulterior motives at play…..
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Totally agree... why why?
There has been no inference of voter fraud when turning up in person, if anything it should be with the postal votes.
I wonder when the new requirement will start to be generally publicised on TV, Radio and council flyers.... hopefully not just two weeks before the May elections.
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Plan: stop scumbags voting 'cos they don't vote Tory.
Result.
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>> And back to the issue at hand. Why the need for this? There is no
>> proof of any major voter fraud.
There has in the Asian community in my neighbouring borough. The elderly community had postal votes, and the younger members of the family were taking them unopened, filling them in at the behest (money) of the Asian candidate standing in the ward.
Postal votes are the easiest to manipulate, and photo ID won't address that
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Did charges / prosecutions result?
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>> Did charges / prosecutions result?
No, tho someone was barred from office.
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>>
>> There has in the Asian community in my neighbouring borough. The elderly community had postal
>> votes, and the younger members of the family were taking them unopened, filling them in
>> at the behest (money) of the Asian candidate standing in the ward.
>>
>> Postal votes are the easiest to manipulate, and photo ID won't address that
>>
This happened where I live. The current MP has been investigated twice, but no proof was found.
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>> This happened where I live. The current MP has been investigated twice, but no proof
>> was found.
There have been investigations of (at least) local government elections in parts of Birmingham which I think have led to re-runs.
Also been a running theme in some East London Boroughs.
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1 in 5 allegations of electoral fraud are in West Yorks.
Quelle surprise
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>No, they just cost a fortune, billions wasn't it and that was in the 2000's!
The problem when the idea of ID cards was first floated was mission creep.
Instead of starting off with a simple photo id that could be issued by the passport office or DVLA and adding to it bit by bit they wanted all the "wouldn't it be nice"s from the get go.
Last edited by: Kevin on Sat 14 Jan 23 at 18:20
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I'm not sure I buy in the idea that it's some sort of plan to win more seats for the gov. I'd bet that many of the areas where they crop up aren't marginal seats. I don't think the con party have many issues winning elections, historically speaking. I don't think it will add many MPs that they otherwise wouldn't have gained.
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Because many of their voters think there is an issue.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 14 Jan 23 at 19:51
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Fair and regular elections are fundamental to our democratic processes.
Election fraud (voter and campaign) is, as best as can be established fairly low at present and unlikely to alter overall outcomes. For individual seats with a first past the post system a few votes count.
We have a choice - accept the status quo, or seek to eliminate a potential threat which may make a real difference in the future. Reflect that for want of a few thousand votes and several recounts. Trump rather than Biden may be leader of the free world.
Personal view - I would introduce voter ID AND improve the postal vote system. Accepting a compromise is insidious.
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>> Personal view - I would introduce voter ID AND improve the postal vote system. Accepting
>> a compromise is insidious.
But there is no universal identity document in this country. You see the problem? Does anybody seriously doubt that voter deterrence will exceed the present level of fraudulent in-person voting by many times?
The best solution to almost anything is the best compromise. In this case, it is not what the government proposes, which IS a compromise and an unacceptable one.
Postal votes are another question.
If we really want to know who is up to no good then we need that universal identity card.
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It's not deterrence. It's apathy.
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>> It's not deterrence. It's apathy.
But you know people will be deterred, or simply turned away if they aren't aware of the requirement. So does the Government.
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Why should people who actually want to vote be deterred?
The requirement for ID is already on TV and in the press and there's months to go yet. We've already had a flyer from the Womens Equality Party reminding us of the requirement and no-doubt there's more to come. It's not some conspriatorial secret for Glub's sake.
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>>It's not some conspiratorial secret for Glub's sake.
Sure it's not - it has been done in good faith by the party who expects it will have no effect on the outcome of an election where a greater proportion of their own voters already have the necessary ID.....
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Does having the required ID automatically cure apathy?
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>> Why should people who actually want to vote be deterred?
If you're determined to vote, well informed, have picked up what's needed and been able to sort it then you'll probably have what is needed in time.
So far as I can find out there are no elections here in May. Local government is by way of a Unitary Council which was elected in 2021 and will sit for four years so next time will be 2025.
If you're somebody who has voted at every election since 1979 by turning up at the polling place after work and you've got other stuff in your life you're much less likely to have caught onto this stuff next time you need
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>..you've got other stuff in your life you're much less likely to have caught onto this stuff next time you need
Do you stand outside your neighbours house every morning reminding them to take their keys, wallet and brolly as well or can they manage without you?
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>> >..you've got other stuff in your life you're much less likely to have caught onto
>> this stuff next time you need
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>> Do you stand outside your neighbours house every morning reminding them to take their keys,
>> wallet and brolly as well or can they manage without you?
>>
Maybe that's a way to increase the employment figures for the over 55s. Maybe a start up idea for someone ;)
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Whatever the intent of HMG you need to have the ID when you turn up to cast your vote.
There's info in the link below covering how the Electoral Commission expect it to work:
www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-voter-authority-certificate
Although they say all you need is a photo and your NI number you need to know what's needed and have made the application by Tuesday of the week before polling day. We already know, because they've done some trials, that folks will go to vote and be unable to do so.
Either they don't have the required ID at all and were unable, perhaps because they did not know, to get the voter card or they rock up at the polling place without it.
If you're in the first group you're stuffed and cannot vote. If in the second then you can vote if you've got time to go home and return. That's not necessarily possible if you've got carer etc tasks to do as soon as you're home.
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Effectively you are saying no law, rulle law regulation can be changed however much such changes are publicised because someone will not have read the paper, listened to the radio watched the TV or read any letter or notification addressed to them. Effectively we always have to continue as we are.
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It's a fix for a non-existent problem that just happens to favour the incumbent government.
Postal/proxy voting is the big potenital scam as previously noted.
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>Postal/proxy voting is the big potenital scam as previously noted.
THAT I agree with.
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Maybe it's baby steps towards addressing that problem.
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It may well be an issue, i don't think it is. However it wouldn't be the first thing the consensus said there was no issue, until there was.
I suspect postal voting is harder to sort. I think i read the gov tried to legislate both issues but ran into legal issues with postal voting.
There's no real advantage to the government in terms of seats in bringing ID for in person voting.
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Personally I doubt that there is currently widespread voting fraud but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to have a basic check on id when voting.
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>> Effectively you are saying no law, rulle law regulation can be changed however much such
>> changes are publicised because someone will not have read the paper, listened to the radio
>> watched the TV or read any letter or notification addressed to them. Effectively we always
>> have to continue as we are.
No I'm not.
But in this case there is no problem to speak of that anyone can demonstrate. The result will be a less representative democracy, if anything. And yes, the motivation bothers me because I'm pretty sure I know what it is.
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My post was actually addressed to Bromptonaut but you do seem to see right wing conspiracy everywhere.
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>> My post was actually addressed to Bromptonaut but you do seem to see right wing
>> conspiracy everywhere.
I apologise.
I don't need conspiracy theories. We can see the present government for what they are if we want to. They have reached rock bottom, but they're still digging.
Zahawi has been sacked for breaking the Ministerial code. So why is Braverman still there?
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So if there's an issue with postal voting, how best to solve that? Limit it, more checks or something else?
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Forthcoming Elections - CGNorwich
