Continuing Discussion.
653684
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 26 Oct 22 at 10:50
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Sunak only one to make 100 and be nominated.
Lot of funnies going round about Boris including multiple references to pulling out....
Also one about electile disfunction...
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BJ supporters claim he still had 100 votes
But Nigel Adams, one of Mr Johnson's most loyal allies, said today: "This morning I met Bob Blackman, joint secretary of the 1922 Committee.
"He has independently verified the nomination paperwork and confirmed to me that Boris Johnson was above the threshold required to stand for the Conservative Party leadership in this leadership election.
Anyway doesn't matter, Sunak is the new PM. Talking over after PMQs by all accounts.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Mon 24 Oct 22 at 14:33
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Look on the bright side, only two Prime Ministers till Christmas.
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Disgusting creature, complete lack of awareness, deaf, and thus totally unsuitable for the role she lost so quickly.
"Liz Truss has defended her lower-tax vision for the UK, before bowing out as the shortest-serving British prime minister ever.
"In an unapologetic farewell speech, ....."
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-63386060
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On Disgusting creatures...
I occasionally make an excuse to pop out the banking hall to see what's going on and to grab a decent cuppa from the café down the road.
Today's conversation from the two in front of me was unpleasantness re Rishi Sunak's heritage and they couldn't even get the country right.
I had hoped that we have got past all of that.
:-(
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>> I had hoped that we have got past all of that.
>>
So had I, but looking on the bright side, JRM has gone:
www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/25/rishi-sunak-uk-pm-cabinet-reshuffle-begins
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>>Today's conversation from the two in front of me was unpleasantness re Rishi Sunak's heritage
Listen to this one tying himself in knots.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPYdzIt7p7s
Sangita Myska on LBC - caller who says Tory party members won't vote for Sunak because 'he doesn't represent Britain'.
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It's as well there are not many Tory Party members - and as an aging breed there may be fewer at the next election.
Sunak seems a highly intelligent, straightforward and able - a better bet than Boris with partygate etc baggage and a disastrously incompetent Truss. Time will tell whether my expectations are fulfilled.
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>> It's as well there are not many Tory Party members - and as an aging
>> breed there may be fewer at the next election.
A journalist attempted to get information on the voting procedure, but getting nowhere, they joined the tory party, along with their tortoise and a couple of immigrants (one I believe was under sisxteen). It seems anyone can join.
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>>Sunak seems a highly intelligent, straightforward and able - a better bet than Boris with partygate etc baggage and a disastrously incompetent Truss. Time will tell whether my expectations are fulfilled.
Yes, wait and see. I hope he has good support.
He's not actually very experienced, entered parliament in 2015, Chief Secretary to the Treasury in 2019, Chancellor Feb 20 to July 22 in rather unusual times. There seems to be a perception that Johnson deliberately appointed him on the basis that he would be compliant. It subsequently looked as if he had a mind of his own. At least he can now pick his own advisers.
Of course they don't really have too many experienced big beasts, Brexit saw most of them off.
Zahawi's just gone in to number 10. Unfortunately, so has James Cleverley. Raab is back at Justice and Deputy PM. Limited choice I suppose.
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 25 Oct 22 at 16:08
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It would have stuck in my craw to re-appoint the awful Braverman to Home Sec, but I can see what he's doing and why. Have all the factions in the tent where you can see and implicate them.
Anna Soubry, now a professional thorn in the side of the Tories, asked where the Ken Clarke's are, who were the centre of gravity of the party. They don't exist any more.
The party has gone so far to the right and is so captive to Brexit now - that is absolutely its biggest problem, but not of course its most urgent, which is to provide strong and stable government. Now where have I heard that before?
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"... Tory party members won't vote for Sunak because 'he doesn't represent Britain'."
It is indeed depressing that this sort of stuff goes on.
I frequent the comments bit of the Daily Express, mainly so I can wind up the right-wing idiots who post all kinds of bizarre stuff - and they are easy to wind up, are ill-informed, cannot maintain an intelligent discussion etc etc.
The filter there gets rid of a lot of extreme stuff, depending on the language, but a recurring opinion is that Sunak is "not British enough". Many posters express extreme disgust that Sunak is PM and it's certain that behind the comments that he's a backstabber and is too rich is barely-suppressed racism - and envy, probably.
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No massive surprises in the new cabinet. Raab always looks a bit clueless to me, i think he was involved with RS campaign. I see there's rumours Williamson is coming back.
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I cannot but think Braverman was an error. So much for compassion. She's quite likely to say or do something awful and 6 days in the wilderness isn't exactly a suitable punishment for a resigning matter - if it really was one.
I wonder what PMQ's will bring. Perhaps Starmer will hold back until Sunak has actually done something.
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Must admit I thought Braverman invented the resignation reason to neatly get her out of a position she didn't want to be in and to give herself a stick to beat Truss with. Not that I like Braverman really.
I actually quite like the look of the new cabinet, it seems to have a reasonable mix and I didn't like that some of the faces had previously been discarded by Johnson and Truss for no good reason.
I think they ARE captive to BREXIT as that's seen as part of their mandate. The electorate at large can't be ignored, even though it is often an unpleasant thing.
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More has actually emerged about Bravermans email mishap, if it isn't fake news. Seemingly she forwarded the confidential document to her personal account before sending it to an unauthorised person. She ale copied, in error, a civil servant. Hence cat out of bag.
Starmer might well ask at PMQ if the PM thinks Braverman was right for her breach, and of so why she hasn't stayed resigned. I think I know why.
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I get that she might have made an error, but without diminishing that I wonder when a Tory PM will be given a fair chance to successfully govern when the media and therefore electorate are picking holes wherever they can.
We really could do with the country and the press to get behind the government just as much as the Tory party is being exhorted to.
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Documents and emails upto OS are routinely sent via private email and WA, if everyone resigned like she did there wouldn't be many politicians and senior CS left in central gov.
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>> Documents and emails upto OS are routinely sent via private email and WA, if everyone
>> resigned like she did there wouldn't be many politicians and senior CS left in central
>> gov.
We've heard this, and we've heard the opposite from other people who claim to know. Never mind that she's the Home Sec who presumably gets many more secret, and more secret, documents than practically anyone else in government. I suspect it depends on the documents. Fact is she resigned for it 6 days before being reappointed. Either it matters, and she shouldn't be back, or it doesn't, and the resignation reason was confected. But why confect something everyone knows is a sham if that is the case?
I'm trying to reserve judgment, I really am, but the Sunak who made the speech and the one who made the cabinet appointments seem to be different people.
I'm beginning to think he wasn't really very sharp after all.
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I see PMQs were to some degree hijacked by the Braverman stuff, and Starmer introduced a theory that Sunak needed her onside to win.
It really is pathetic the way they all carry on, in the midst of a number of major crises. We must be the total laughing stock of the world by now.
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 26 Oct 22 at 13:25
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>> I see PMQs were to some degree hijacked by the Braverman stuff, and Starmer introduced
>> a theory that Sunak needed her onside to win.
Of course he did, everyone knows he did lots of deals with lots of party factions to achieve the unopposed ticket.
Given that, and the fact no-one cares how or why he did it - just relived he got it sorted quickly, its a pretty pathetic and ineffective combating point in parliament. Specially when there are much bigger much juicier problems with the Tories in power that the populous care about.
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It was Sunak who promised integrity, it was bound to blow up in his face, and it did. We can't allow the Johnson defence to sleaze that there are more important matters to discuss.
There's also the minor point that Braverman isn't fit to be Home Secretary, as Sunak well knows.
Starmer pursued a perfectly valid question, Sunak responded with irrelevant bluster and no answer. I can see where the problem is, and it isn't Starmer.
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I'm concerned for Larry the cat. He peed up the number 10 front door this morning. Perhaps he didn't get the unity memo.
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Sunak's response was that Braverman had apologised and admitted her wrongdoing.
He answered the question. You may not like the answer, of course, but he answered. I can't see any evidence of bluster.
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There was almost nothing but bluster from Sunak this morning. He even invoked Jeremy Corbyn at one point, and went off on something about Starmer spending time in North London, where he lives.
He's unnecessarily and unwisely exposed himself to valid criticism and he got it. Don't blame Labour.
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>> Sunak's response was that Braverman had apologised and admitted her wrongdoing.
>>
>> He answered the question. You may not like the answer, of course, but he answered.
>> I can't see any evidence of bluster.
That was the nuts and bolts of his direct response to the question.
Starmer pressed him further:
Yesterday, the Prime Minister stood on the steps of Downing Street and promised “integrity, professionalism and accountability”, but then, with his first act, he appointed a Home Secretary who was sacked by his predecessor a week ago for deliberately pinging around sensitive Home Office documents from her personal account
The PM's response was to 'bang on' about 15,000 new police officers (no admission they replace those lost to austerity) and to the opposition 'backing the lunatic protesting fringe that is stopping working people going about their lives.'.
He did no better when offered a third bite at the cherry with a response in including a reference to My Corbyn.
hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2022-10-26/debates/DA634E71-6A00-4C9C-8D40-CCE730776B42/Engagements
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 26 Oct 22 at 16:07
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He can afford to ignore this question, once they hold some power they tend not too be too far from the PM. Sunak, Johnson, May and Starmer when his time comes.
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He is one to bang on about integrity, never having accepted personal resposibility for the failure of his organization to put the child molester behind bars. And then to put that awful man in the HoL.
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>> He is one to bang on about integrity, never having accepted personal resposibility for the
>> failure of his organization to put the child molester behind bars. And then to put
>> that awful man in the HoL.
Can you expand?
Which organisation and which awful man?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 26 Oct 22 at 18:12
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>> DPP/Watson
You're not seriously saying that Starmer could have 'had' Savile are you?
Who was Watson?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 26 Oct 22 at 19:47
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No, hence what I wrote. Watson, self-appointed chief paedo-finder.
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And fracking is now Banned again.
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We've heard this, and we've heard the opposite from other people who claim to know.
Claim to know that people don't do it or those that do all resign straight away?
Either it matters, and
>> she shouldn't be back, or it doesn't, and the resignation reason was confected. But why
>> confect something everyone knows is a sham if that is the case?
It should matter but hasn't for quite a while. Why do it then? Political perception, remember they all live in a bubble.
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I'm genuinely surprised that a Govt. IT system allowed her to send what sounds like a restricted document to a non-secure destination. They might as well .cc every foreign intelligence agency with a 'FYI'.
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Well, at least is wasn't 'Top Secret'
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>> I get that she might have made an error, but without diminishing that I wonder
>> when a Tory PM will be given a fair chance to successfully govern when the
>> media and therefore electorate are picking holes wherever they can.
>>
I'm not sure they are, plenty of people seem to think the press is very soft with the government when it's a tory one. Laura Kuensburg was known as boris Johnson's press Secretary.
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>> media and therefore electorate are picking holes wherever they can.
>>
>> We really could do with the country and the press to get behind the government
>> just as much as the Tory party is being exhorted to.
In all fairness, government is elected by the media, or what the media tell the electorate. Government is almost entirely about media management. The tories failed, badly, it all went teets up when the media leaked the tory media managers at their mockup media event.
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Sad to relate, there's more to come on Braverman. Less sadly, I think she's probably done for.
I think Starmer suspected or knew there was more this morning when he asked whether Sunak had received advice on his re-appointment of Braverman from senior civil servants.
The Lib Dems are calling for an enquiry now.
As usual the cover up is worse for the party than the original transgression. Do they never learn?
For the country's sake I hope it stops with her. It's enough for now that Sunak gets the shine taken off him.
Former Chairman Jake Berry spills the beans here (listen from 6.00)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jnx3P3OF_yk
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I didn't have you down as a Talk TV type...
That's quite a big axe Jake Berry is grinding throughout that piece isn't it? I guess we have to trust what he says, even on Talk TV - but then he is a Tory, and you often don't trust them! :-)
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>> I didn't have you down as a Talk TV type...
>>
>
I'm not, all the text reports looked to be paywalled so I was being helpful:). That interview seems to be the source for the stories.
The comments under the video give a clue to their market!
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Some of the old contemptibles are unhappy
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63388010
"MPs have effectively said the membership are contemptible and if I hung around I would be agreeing with them".
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From the www:
Rishi: "I am looking forward to meeting King Charles. I will be nice to meet someone else with immense wealth who also is not used to paying taxes".
:-D
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>> "MPs have effectively said the membership are contemptible and if I hung around I
>> would be agreeing with them".
Hes right, I see he rogered off to the Reform (Brexit) party.
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Starmer failed to get an election after party gate, the wandering hands, Liz and Kwarti incompetence.
Whether he influenced the departure of Boris and Liz is questionable - they were finally removed by Tory MPs.
He will now be sitting opposite to someone who seems balanced, intelligent, competent.
It has been easy for Starmer to ridicule the generally indefensible. He now needs to come up with some plausible policies and strategies to differentiate Labour from the current incumbents.
It is debatable whether he is up to it - he may struggle as the shadow cabinet seems dominated by shallow lightweights.
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Labour needs to get some better communications 'experts' that's for sure. They think it's a good idea to keep repeating slogans, it really isn't.
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I think the jury’s out on competent. We are talking about a very young and inexperienced Prime Minister. Only time will enable us to judge his competence. In my book his enthusiasm for Brexit casts grave doubts as to his judgement.
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>> I think the jury’s out on competent.
The competence bar is now very low post Truss.
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Plus people are being very quiet about Sunak also being fined as part of Partygate.
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>> Plus people are being very quiet about Sunak also being fined as part of Partygate.
He kept his head down I think. His ertswhile boss on the other hand lied a lot, which was the problem.
One problem we are left with is that the standards have now dropped so far, and possibly permanently. Large parts of the electorate now don't require their hero to hold to any standards at all, provided he's a larf and, as one of my neighbours said of Johnson, they are a "man of the people".
If Sunak and Hunt can restore trust in the currency, that will be something. But it will cost us dear.
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We have just had a surprise visit to theatres in my trust by Rishi!
Once the staff were able to talk to him it was... 'increase our pay' and 'can we can we have a selfie!'
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Was there a memo some time back requiring the Home Secretary to be a divisive, vile piece of crap?
Rishi cocked up with this one right from the starting pistol.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63463606
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No. The official memo uses the words scheming, devious, disingenuous turd.
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...overachiever, then...?
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One wonders how the daughter of immigrants with such extreme views can find a leg to stand on
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Easy enough if you are genuinely evil.
Problem we have is too many folk assume that these politicians aren’t evil. Some of them are.
And she is one. Farage another.
How long did it take folk to realise that Hitler was genuinely evil?
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Define evil. It one of those words that’s used to mean different things.g
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A descendant of a migrant who says her dream is to see a Telegraph headline showing that a full plane load of migrants is on its way to Rwanda?
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>> A descendant of a migrant who says her dream is to see a Telegraph headline
>> showing that a full plane load of migrants is on its way to Rwanda?
>>
I find that very offensive. Not your comment Bobby but the want that some people have to pull up the ladder preventing others reaching safety, once they themselves are safe.
My take on it. It's going to happen, like it or not. So facilitate it (a vote looser no doubt).
Get the migrants screened, finger printed, DNA checked and photographed.
Then a medical check for communicable diseases (and quarantine if necessary).
Then give them electronic tags and a job of work - how many farmers needed labour in the summer but couldn't get it? Send the kids to schools. Pre-fab if you have to.
I have clients struggling to find unskilled labour.
There was a program on the TV a while back in Turkey. They have set up some camps for Syrian refugees that seem decent with simple but solid accommodations, washing facilities and medical care and importantly training and education.
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Not a bad theory Zippy but this bit won't work
"Then give them electronic tags and a job of work"
We can't force "our own" people to work for their living so it's a bit much to force immigrants - that may not be what they came here to do, and it's kind of discriminatory.
I suppose one issue with opening the doors is the cost of it all, just the simple checking in process and housing would cost quite a bit, and if the gates are wide open it becomes a bit of a blank cheque.
Then again, I have no better ideas...
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>> We can't force "our own" people to work for their living so it's a bit
>> much to force immigrants - that may not be what they came here to do,
>> and it's kind of discriminatory.
I think letting them work, sooner rather than later, is part of the solution. They need not be forced; most WANT work. Some with have the skills to be drivers or to do care work. Agricultural work is actually quite skilled, even cutting Caulis or digging up Spuds but some may be OK with training.
Not sure tagging is necessary. If they're a flight risk, in the sense of disappearing into the black economy or their own community in, say, Blackburn, they'll shed the tag and do that anyway. There's also evidence that, at least for for already traumatised people, tagging is a really bad thing psychologically.
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Is it therefore your belief that we should let in any immigrants who wish I to come here even if their sole reason for coming is economic? How many, given the chance and facing no restrictions swould wish to come here and if , as I suspect that the number is at least hundreds of thousands if not millions would it be possible to house and support all those people?
What effect would a massive and uncontrolled influx of immigrants, have on the structure of society?
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>> Is it therefore your belief that we should let in any immigrants who wish I
>> to come here even if their sole reason for coming is economic?
No I'm thinking specifically of those who have claimed Asylum and are waiting for their cases to be decided.
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>> I have clients struggling to find unskilled labour.
Any in South Manchester, Zips. I have a 20yr old unskilled lad here really trying to get work.
Ted
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>> A descendant of a migrant who says her dream is to see a Telegraph headline
>> showing that a full plane load of migrants is on its way to Rwanda?
>>
I'd say its a pretty strange 'dream' but not evil.
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...so, (sorry ;-) ) is Boris going to get away with his "some big boys told me to do it, and said it was all above board" defence?
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He didn't know it was against the rules and nobody told him And with a single bound...
Never mind they were his rules. And ignorance is no excuse.
Even if were true, anyone with a shred of integrity would say "my mistake, it's fair cop". He really is a disgrace, but he clearly can't help it. The people who prop him up can help it, and they are a bigger disgrace.
I think he will be found to have misled Parliament, but quite what that implies I'm not sure. He obviously thinks he's coming back to win the next election.
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As they said in The Newsagents podcast today, his defence seems to be “if I knew it was illegal do you think I would have joined in and allowed them?”
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>> As they said in The Newsagents podcast today, his defence seems to be “if I
>> knew it was illegal do you think I would have joined in and allowed them?”
Alas leaves you open to "you set the rules, and you didn't know what they were?" He seems to be using the "I am just stupid" defence.
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I'd assumed he'd come out with something we didn't already know...
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-65064708
>>
>> You have to laugh.
It won't stop them voting Conservative. But I suppose it might stop him being PM again.
I watched the BBC coverage of the hearing. No denying he's a plausible waffler, but what seems really to have riled people is the statement that it was essential to have leaving parties. Juxtapose that with the picture of the Queen on her own at Philip's funeral.
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I see Rishi has now decided to attend the event.
The Beeb reported that the original decision not at attend "had been widely criticised by environmentalists, opposition parties and climate adviser Alok Sharma" - rightly so in my view. I think he should be there, but I am no expert, and I'm sure he had his reasons.
Unfortunately, I suspect that Boris's declaration that he'd attend may have influenced the change of mind. He may be eligible, but he should accept he is no longer the PM and should have had enough graciousness and respect to step aside thereby relieving the pressure on Rishi to change his mind, and stop trying to undermine the leadership by the back door.
I suppose we can expect at least one of the "environmentalists, opposition parties and climate adviser" to take advantage in some way of his absence, or try to make capital from it.
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>> Unfortunately, I suspect that Boris's declaration that he'd attend may have influenced the change of
>> mind. He may be eligible, but he should accept he is no longer the PM
>> and should have had enough graciousness and respect to step aside thereby relieving the pressure
Expecting graciousness from Johnson is a massive triumph for optimism over experience.....
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>> Expecting graciousness from Johnson is a massive triumph for optimism over experience.....
Nah, it's all Greek to him
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"... a... triumph for optimism over experience..."
From one Johnson to another.
The original quotation was by Samuel ("Dr") Johnson: "the triumph of hope over experience", spoken about a man who, after an unhappy marriage, had married again.
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I believe him going not going was, at least in part, tied up with a foreign office issue.
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Yes probably, but I still reckon Johnson going forced his hand. Taht's my theory and I'm sticking to it :-)
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I thought goddess Greta has decided not to attend, labelling it greenwashing. Rishi could follow the same line.
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>> I thought goddess Greta has decided not to attend, labelling it greenwashing. Rishi could follow
>> the same line.
That doesn't work, UK has been president of COP for the last year.
Thunberg's position is well known but COP is the the central coordinating body for governments on climate change, convened by the UN. Thunberg would be attending as a 'civilian' rather than a participant unless she were invited to speak. But she is not an expert as such. Sunak is the functional head of state of a participating member.
Thunberg gets a bad rap IMO. The hate is awful, especially from deniers, who say she can't know anything and/or is manipulated by her parents etc., as well as claiming she is mentally ill.
In fact, what she has done since she was a child is to cite/draw attention to the vast majority amongst climate scientists who are expert in the subject.
The question should not be about Thunberg's knowledge, mental state or motivation but why governments are not listening hard enough to those experts and acting fast enough.
For Sunak to say he wasn't going was simply idiotic (or shows he doesn't understand, which is worse).
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... or maybe he didn't want the Opposition moaning about dereliction of duty
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>> ... or maybe he didn't want the Opposition moaning about dereliction of duty
He's never shown much sign of caring about it before. Another one who's not really up to it. Hunt is the grown up, and that's about it.
Look at the list of Tory MPs who had the whip withdrawn in the 2019 rebellion. What a great move that was for identifying decent MPs and getting rid of them! Grieve, Stewart, Gauke, Rudd, Greening, Hammond, Letwin etc. removed from the Conservative talent pool.
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Yes, I said at the time to SWMBO there's no-one useful left, and nothing has changed there really, though I think Hunt is OK and I once heard Gove in a debate and thought he was good. I realise he's not popular though, that'll teach him to have a funny looking face, easy to lampoon and therefore soaked up by the masses. (On which note I see the new Spitting Image won't be doing another series - wasn't so good but it brought back memories)
I have to tread carefully though, she's a bit of a Boris fan!
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Gove is clever and actually works and does things. Not impressed with his backing for Braverman but I think we probably have to accept these displays of unity which are pretty much directed from Downing Street.
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Until this thread I hadn’t heard of COP27 ( I avoid news programs...always have..ostrich genes)...plenty of scope for diving and ducking at Sharm.
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Look at the list of Tory MPs who had the whip withdrawn in the 2019
>> rebellion. What a great move that was for identifying decent MPs and getting rid of
>> them! Grieve, Stewart, Gauke, Rudd, Greening, Hammond, Letwin etc. removed from the Conservative talent pool.
>>
I'd agree with hammond. Stewart is a bit potty with delusions, the rest neither here nor there.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 2 Nov 22 at 19:33
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>>
>> I'd agree with hammond. Stewart is a bit potty with delusions, the rest neither here
>> nor there.
>>
Depends where you start from. Grieve was head and shoulders better than what they have had as Attorney General since.
I could have added Rudd, as well.
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>> I could have added Rudd, as well.
Wasn't much impressed with her at the Home Office but she was one the best DWP minister of the Tory era by some distance.
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My point was that most of that list would be significantly better than e.g. Braverman, Cleverly, Coffey, Jenrick, Williamson...
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...it's a low bar, though. I'm not convinced George Galloway wouldn't have be better....
...oh, all right then.. ;-)
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>> ... or maybe he didn't want the Opposition moaning about dereliction of duty
>>
I think avoiding press headlines were part of the reason rather than the opposition. Swanning off while the rest of us starve and shiver in the dark.
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It matters not a bit whether he stays or goes. Those who want to criticise can pick arguments that fit their particular agenda.
Personal view - both the economy and climate change are important.
Getting the nations finances sorted is an immediate challenge and must have Sunak input.
Climate is urgent - progress over the next months will not stall without Sunak involvement.
He should stay at home unless he can spare the time.
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How it looks matters.
Unfortunately it doesn't really count now that he had had to be shamed into going. Poor judgement to take the stance he did, and to take the climate minister out of the cabinet.
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>>At least he held his hands up and admitted it.
But he still thinks the policy was right.
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who knows? it might have been, but not all at once with no notice and getting the markets on side.
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A £50,000 tax cut to somebody on £1m a year, when the country has a massive deficit and will have to cut services? I don't think so.
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Who will be the next Prime Minister? - Rishi - Bromptonaut
