Non-motoring > Energy bills - Volume 4
Thread Author: VxFan Replies: 201

 Energy bills - Volume 4 - VxFan

Continuing Discussion

652290
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 23 Sep 22 at 11:01
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - sooty123
news.sky.com/story/energy-bills-capped-at-2-500-a-year-new-pm-liz-truss-announces-12692619

No announcement what that means in price kwh, seems a very pricey scheme. But I guess needed something like this.

Back into fracking as well it would seem

news.sky.com/story/ban-on-fracking-to-be-lifted-as-part-of-liz-trusss-energy-plan-12692646
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - CGNorwich
“But I guess needed something like this. “

Should pay for a weeks holiday
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - sooty123
£100 bn, that's quite the holiday.
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - tyrednemotional
...only what he's accustomed to....
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - Crankcase
Fracking..."where there is local support". So that won't be happening in many places.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Thu 8 Sep 22 at 13:23
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - sooty123
Seems the price cap per kwh won't be released for a few days yet.
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - legacylad
Santander are doubling cash back to 4% on gas and electric bills for 2 months from September.
With my £90 pcm DD that’s £3.60...sufficient for a pint at my local.

Or maybe two if you visit ‘Spoons. Every little helps.
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - CGNorwich
Just got email from OVO

New rates from 1st Oct

Electricity

standing charge 38.93 per day was 37.92 per Kwh
unit rate 35.05 per Kwh was 29.23 per Kwh

Gas

standing charge 28.48 per day was 27.22 per Kwh
unit rate 10.3 per Kwh was 7.34 per Kwh

As you can see they are increasing quite substantially at 1st October
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - smokie
Had the same from Octopus yesterday except it didn't detail electricity as I'm not on a fixed tariff.

Gas standing charge going down from 27.216 to 26.841
Gas unit charge going from 7.476 to 10.458

It says these prices include the Energy Price Discount but not the £400 Energy Bill Support Scheme.

I'm a bit puzzled with electricity. I am on a Go tariff which I get 4 hours overnight at 7.5p and the rest of the day is 36.x. I think I have that till next ?June, though I could swap out if I wanted. But I won't as a large part of my consumption is at the lower rate.

Elec for July/Aug

Cheap rate 525 kWh £39.37 (charge car, dishwasher, tumble dryer, washing machine)
Day rate 286 kWh £99.76 (not a lot more than cooking, TV and lighting!!)
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - car4play
>>get 4 hours overnight at 7.5p

As you have probably seen, that didn't last long. 5p before July, then 7.5p up to October, now 10p/KWh. Almost as much as I was paying for the day rate before July (15p).
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - smokie
I think I have it till next June or thereabouts. Maybe if this war is over prices will drop a bit. (Yeah right).

It's what happens next that I'm a bit worried about. People are forecasting the end of the Go tariff in favour of Intelligent Octopus, which is live (poss beta). I'd need a few hundred quids worth of hardware to benefit from that.
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - car4play
>> Intelligent Octopus, ... I'd need a few hundred quids worth of hardware

Exactly. Last time I looked the one of the chargers they integrate with cost £1000!
And my Kia won't integrate because I didn't get the top model which has the wifi link option.

Just waiting for someone to come up with a home assistant equivalent that can somehow pretend to be a smart charger to Octopus
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - smokie
I believe the OHME chargers will do it. You could buy them through Octopus for £199 a year or so back. I was going to get one after my holiday, but they'd gone up to £299. £499 now, for the commando version. more for the wall charger.

And I read, though I think I may be wrong, that the tariff will ultimately only supply enough cheap charge for your car, not your other heavy loads. I'm sure I read it so maybe it was expectation or speculation rather than fact.
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - Terry
Local support for fracking - you bribe them - new sports centre, or a bypass, or a theatre complex, or a hospital - the options are endless!
Last edited by: Terry on Thu 8 Sep 22 at 16:10
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - Zero
Any attempt to frack will last as long as the first earth tremor.

Think Road protestors, HS2 protestors, aided and abetted by the local home owners financed by Nimby Inc and you'll find out what civil unrest means.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 8 Sep 22 at 16:31
 Energy bills - Volume 3 - Terry
The nimbys of all varieties and whatever motivation are why we are where we are today - either dependent on world energy markets and subject to the whims of a Russian despot.

The UK knew there was an impending energy supply problem 30 years ago as power stations reached the end of their lives.

Hinckley C was one of 8 possible sites nominated in 2010 and will be the first to become operational now in 2027. Sizewell is at the proposal stage.

Wind turbines approvals - offshore takes 4 years. Onshore just about non-existent in the last 6 years.

Nationally critical projects need to be driven through assertively. Trying to convince the minority - which may include the sincere, intelligent, weird, foolish, deliberately disruptive etc - simply adds to time and cost and damages the interests of the vast majority.

A good example is Brexit (love it or hate it) pushed through on the basis of a very small majority o the back of some very questionable arguments. For most the agenda has now moved on from "should we/shouldn't we" to a more rational how do we make it work.

 Energy bills - Volume 3 - Robin O'Reliant
Just had a letter from my gas supplier (Calor). My gas has gone up from 53p per litre to 65.50, about 21.5% if my maths is correct.

Unwanted but bearable, especially if I can convince Mrs O'Reliant that the house does not really need to be as hot as a foundry during the winter.
 Gas Fracking - Rudedog
So it looks like fracking is back on the cards to secure a UK source of gas.

Lets hope that their were quite a few conditions imposed on the company(s) to make sure that this gas is available to the UK market as a priority also lets hope that equally the Govt are going to reinstate/build new gas storage to give us true security like in many parts of Europe seem to have.

 Gas Fracking - CGNorwich
It won’t happen. Not really commercially viable. Comes under the category of “we must be seen to be doing something”.
 Gas Fracking - Zero
Gov says it will depend on local support, So not going to happen.
 Gas Fracking - Terry
A previous proposition was to "bribe" the locals - new hospital, by-pass, leisure centre, parks, social housing - whatever makes the locals say "yes".

The UK only meets ~50% of its gas needs and that is falling. Fracking will help UK energy self-sufficiency - whether it closes the gap is questionable.

UK PLC will benefit to the extent that extraction will generate tax revenues. Whether it makes any difference to world prices, and therefore UK domestic tariffs, is very debatable.

Whether the risks of earthquake and contamination of ground water used as arguments by the nimbys against fracking are of substance, or skewed scaremongering is difficult to establish.
 Gas Fracking - CGNorwich
What the founder of Cuadrilla thinks about the futrue of fracking in the UK:

www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/21/fracking-wont-work-uk-founder-chris-cornelius-cuadrilla
 Gas Fracking - Rudedog
So how did 'they' manage to get away with some of the inland wind-farms? I can't believe in a month of Sundays that most of those had local support.

 Energy bill - Rudedog
Maybe it needs to be made clear that the average price cap on energy bills is per source...

Just got my estimates from BG for costs from the 1st of October.

Gas = £2,959
Electricity = £2,085

That's just for three adults in an early 70's built house, all of us are out during the day and the timers only are on for an hour in the morning and three in the evening.

And I guess that's based on what we have used during the summer let alone the winter?

Thank goodness for our wood fire which we be using more and more.

Unfortunately (!) I have my elderly MiL staying next week and she insists on having the heating set at 24 all day along.
 Energy bill - Falkirk Bairn
>>I have my elderly MiL staying next week and she insists on having the heating set at 24 all day along.
Buy her a onesie and a pair of warm slippers
 Energy bill - fraudsters - zippy
Up on the banks warning system today.

There are loads of people who have clicked on mobile phone messages and emails re claim your energy rebate here type messages over the weekend and today.

Must be because we are nearing the end of the month.

Back office people are working their socks off cancelling fraudulent transactions!

Worth mentioning, don’t reply to unsolicited texts or emails regarding energy rebates!

 Energy bill - DeeW
I’ve got my new direct debit amount.
The saga so far over the past two years. Bear in mind some of this period we were in lockdown for son, with no day service etc. so using maximum power. Was originally on £172 a month, set in October, by February I had £350 credit which was repaid and DD put down to £140. When the prices were up last spring, I had over £500 credit but they still insisted I should pay £232. When it got to £950 credit I managed to speak to someone who listened, looked at past statements and dropped it down again. Since then I have got to £1100 credit as of 16th September.
Apparently, their estimate is that I will use £298 a month, but due to Government money we all get, will only pay £227 for the next six months then up to the full amount.
These figures do not include the Pension related winter fuel allowance or the direct payment we qualify for direct from the supplier, which was £140 last year.

Where on earth do they get their estimates from?

Do I get the credit repaid? Just pay the £227 for now and see how it pans out?
 Energy bill - Manatee
I wouldn't accept that. I'd be tempted to stop the DD but that might cause a change of tariff, a "penalty" that would just be something else to sort out. Believe me I know how impossible these organisations are to deal with, Scottish Power sent me bills, including estimated gas consumption, over a year after my gas supply had been removed.

Either write or email, advising them that they should use your credit balance and that you will temporarily cancel your direct debit (or use the direct debit indemnity scheme to reclaim payments) to ensure that you do not pay until necessary. I'd also look at you bills and work out your actual usage, apply the new tariff, and tell them what your estimated annual cost will be and request that they set up 1/12 of that when payments resume.

They will almost certainly continue to cock it up, but you will have done your bit.

I reached the point with SP when I told them to sue me asap instead of just threatening me with debt collectors, so I could tell the story to the judge.
 Energy bill - Zero
I can tweak my monthly DD up and down by 10%, every month, Do you have any online account management?
 Electric office heater - Bobby
I still WFH in an office which is around 3M x 2m.

I am thinking on days when I am in myself (wife and son work shifts) I would probably keep the house heating off and just heat my office with some sort of electric heater.

Any recommendations? What do I need for this space? Wouldn’t want a fan one due to noise. Thinking more of a panel or oil filled thingy.

What’s most efficient? Assume I would just need the lowest power output got that space?
 Electric office heater - CGNorwich
All electric heaters are equally efficient in that they will all deliver exactly the same amount of heat per KWh. Fan heaters will warm the air quicker but as you say are noisy. I would go for the oil filled radiator convection heater i.e Dimplex type with a thermostat.
 Electric office heater - CGNorwich
Get one a bit bigger than the size of the room demands. Thermostat will regulate output so it won’t cost more to run and might be useful elsewhere.
 Electric office heater - Dog
I have 2 of these stuck in the annexe unused for 2 years. They are very good, wear aboots in Cornwall do you live :)

www.amazon.co.uk/Dimplex-Cadiz-Electric-Free-Radiator/dp/B002G09OXQ

{link shortened to restore correct page width}
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 27 Sep 22 at 11:10
 Electric office heater - car4play
In our office we use an aircon unit in reverse. i.e. as an air source heat pump.
Made a massive difference to heat output relative to use as there is approximately a 4 to 1 return of heat to power in.

Ours is something like the 4.5KW output version of this

tinyurl.com/57349a38

(A Mitsubishi aircon unit.)

which will set you back about £700 and uses about 700W of power when it is on full whack.

We also have a dimplex panel heater, but anyone who dares to switch that on now gets in real trouble for wasting energy ;-)

The unit is really easy to fit. Once all the components are hung where they need to be you connect the pipes and open the valve and it is already pre-gassed so will work straightaway.
Last edited by: car4play on Tue 15 Nov 22 at 16:29
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
www.itv.com/news/2022-09-27/danish-prime-minister-cannot-rule-out-sabotage-to-russian-gas-pipelines

I wouldn't be surprised to see the draw down of all gas supplies from Russia to Europe.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Terry
There is an equally strong argument that the pipelines were sabotaged by Ukraine.

Gas supply effectively becomes a non-issue.

Russia can no longer generate revenue to fund their war effort, or post war economy until repaired.

Russia can no longer use gas supply as an instrument of blackmail to encourage a European reduction in support for Ukraine.
Last edited by: Terry on Wed 28 Sep 22 at 11:33
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
Russia certainly has the means to sabotage the pipeline. Does Ukraine?
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
Makes little sense for either side, the pipelines are more or less defunct now, and destroys any hope of Russia getting export revenue when this is all over.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
So do you think it was some sort of accident or who do you think was responsible?
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
Clearly not, but may indicate Putin does not have full control over the forces at his disposal. We know Ukraine didn't do it they don't have the resource, Americans? Possibly, but for Putin makes no strategic sense.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut
>> Clearly not, but may indicate Putin does not have full control over the forces at
>> his disposal. We know Ukraine didn't do it they don't have the resource, Americans? Possibly,
>> but for Putin makes no strategic sense.

Unless his message is watch out, we can get infrastructure at will?
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
Not known how badly damaged the pipeline is. Putin has shown this year, he has found various excuses/reasons to reduce the amount of gas delivered. This fits in with his pattern of behaviour.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut
>> Not known how badly damaged the pipeline is. Putin has shown this year, he has
>> found various excuses/reasons to reduce the amount of gas delivered. This fits in with his
>> pattern of behaviour.

Although pressurised with gas Nordsteam 2 has never been used and the Russians have claimed Nordstream 1 to be out of service due to sanctions preventing repairs.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
the Russians have claimed
>> Nordstream 1 to be out of service due to sanctions preventing repairs.
>>

Indeed that is the claim.

If all gas pipes are closed from Russia, I'm not sure Europe can cope. The usa is sending large amount of lpg, but it's only 25-30% of what Russia supplied. There's other suppliers of course, but none on that scale.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Terry
The suggestion that Ukraine would be incapable of pipeline sabotage is probably wrong.

Pipeline is at a depth of between 80-110 metres. A record scuba dive is about 300 metres. Whilst I assume you would need to be highly trained, and take decompression stops, it is entirely possible Ukraine have the skill and knowledge.

Ukraine also has (or had) offshore oil and gas wells in the Black Sea. These would need serious deep water capability to operate using either divers or remotely operated.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
Except of course the Ukrainians have no Baltic sea coastline, nor the disguised merchant vessel therein the deed was done from
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - bathtub tom
Anyone may charter a vessel.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
>> Anyone may charter a vessel.

For which you have to explain why you wish to anchor and drop divers with large boxes overboard. I guarantee that is not the case.

 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
Let alone locate the pipeline in the first place.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Terry
It is possible to charter vessels and use your own crew. North Sea oil and gas wells operate in waters well over 90m deep, so the equipment and trained personnel (if not Ukrainian) are locally available.

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania may also be complicit in any operation - they don't want Europe to cave into Russia or they may be next in line for invasion.

The pipeline is ~ 1200km long so it cannot be secured along its whole length.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Biggles
That didn't take long.
www.politico.eu/article/russian-gas-across-ukraine-jeopardized/
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Kevin
I don't think it was done by divers. Much easier to drop a timed or remote charge from a towed or ROV.

However, the idea that Ukraine did it is getting into tinfoil hat territory. There isn't 'an equally strong argument' at all. Would Ukraine risk every bit of support from NATO countries and their own EU ambitions by getting caught blowing up an empty pipeline when they could achieve far more by lobbing a shell at the pipeline transporting Russian gas through Ukraine and then blaming it on Russia? Don't forget that Ukraine has also offered to help Europe with energy and is already supplying limited amounts of cheaper electricity. One of the reasons that I suspect the ZNPP has been under threat.

The only entity I can see at the moment who benefits directly is Gazprom. They were heading for billions of Euros in fines for breaching supply contracts but are now off the hook.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
>> I don't think it was done by divers. Much easier to drop a timed or
>> remote charge from a towed or ROV.

Nah it has to be placed ON to the pipeline (concrete) casing, if there is any sea water between explosive and target its dissipated hugely. It was placed.

Think we know why now. It was a warning, a warning they have the capability to disrupt other undersea services, like the Norwegian gas pipelines.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Kevin
I disagree. Sweden said that the exlosions they recorded were each equivalent to approx 100Kg of TNT. Plenty big enough to break a rigid 1 inch thick pipe even underwater. We should know whether it was a puncture or a break when they get the ROV cameras down.

Der Speigel reported yesterday that the German authorities were warned weeks ago that the pipelines and submarine cables in the Barents were potential targets. The Russian navy telegraphed that threat when they parked ships over the transatlantic cables south west of Ireland in July IIRC.

The security status of other pipelines and gas supply facilities in Germany are now the focus on an 'urgent review'.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
>> I disagree.

Disagree as much as you like, How do you "drop" a thing large enough to create a 100kg blast close enough* to a pipe on the sea floor to rupture it ignoring the tides eddies and currents of course.

*And it needs to be close because of the sea water cushioning and sea floor dispersal effects.

Last edited by: Zero on Wed 28 Sep 22 at 21:59
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Kevin
OK, if you want to argue semantics substitute "place" for "drop", something ROVs have been capable of for years.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Fullchat
Wasn't there one of two large telecommunications connections in the area deliberately cut some time in the past or have I dreampt it?
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
Trouble with physically disrupting Comms cables is that you disrupt your ability to carry out cyber attacks on your enemy
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - martin aston
Comms cables will generally have at least dual routing. Anyway cyber attacks would be on computer and server infrastructure wouldn’t they?
Doesn’t bear thinking about but that’s why we have GCHQ etc.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Terry
Global trade has grown based upon relative stability over the last 70 years, despite the odd hiccup (eg: oil crisis). It is becoming abundantly clear how vulnerable we are:

- covid disruption of supply chains (eg: chips)
- import of consumer and durable goods (from China)
- global energy dependencies
- global media - internet, Amazon, Facebook etc
- financial markets and inadequately regulated trading

It affects not just the UK. US has some claim to potential self-sufficiency. China is reliant on exports to generate wealth. Europe is reliant on imports for raw materials, manufactured goods, food, energy. Russia even needs imported silicon chips for their defence capability.

The only countries with limited reliance on the global economy are the virtually bankrupt who do not have the wherewithal to engage in trade anyway.

The UN is the only body which may be able to resolve and stabilise global economies. They have a dismal record. All rather depressing - I think I'll go off grid!
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
Top of your list of risks should be demented Tory leaders and chancellors.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Terry
I can't disagree with this, save to note that the Labour Party have had its share of the demented.

The Corbyn era brought us borrow to nationalise, Dianne Abbott, sit on the fence Brexit policies, borrow to invest (the Tory approach is tax reductions to invest), unfunded promises.

Starmer at least seems balanced and thoughtful. Internal tensions with the left wing still exist.

He has also learned that simplistic and superficial is the route to political point scoring. Reducing the 45% tax was politically foolish but trivial compared to the other giveaways he would likely not reverse. Unfunded promises are easy until faced with the reality of actually paying for them.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
Borrowing to nationalise is at least investment. Not in principle demented IMO
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
>> Comms cables will generally have at least dual routing. Anyway cyber attacks would be on
>> computer and server infrastructure wouldn’t they?
Yes they would, but how do you plant your attacks if you cant get to the servers due to broken comms?

And things like DDOS requite capacity

>> Doesn’t bear thinking about but that’s why we have GCHQ etc.

And they are not flawless.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - zippy
>>
>> And they are not flawless.
>>

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/russian-cyber-attacks-mi5-anonymous-b2184446.html

 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
Latest rumour is that were planted inside the pipe by maintenance robots some time back
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Terry
The pipes have holes in them. It may never be possible to find out who did it.

Therefore - what are the implications going forward:

- can they be repaired and in what timescale
- until repaired, the world market price of gas will remain high
- until repaired, Europe will have to cope with limited supply of gas during the winter
- denial of supply can no longer be used as a threat - supply is simply not possible
- how long for alternative energy sources for Europe to come on stream (years?)
- Russian gas revenue will be diminished making funding of the war more difficult

Until now gas was an important factor in how the Ukraine conflict might be resolved. Whilst out of commission they are a non-issue.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut

>> Therefore - what are the implications going forward:
>>
>> - can they be repaired and in what timescale
>> - until repaired, the world market price of gas will remain high
>> - until repaired, Europe will have to cope with limited supply of gas during the
>> winter
>> - denial of supply can no longer be used as a threat - supply is
>> simply not possible
>> - how long for alternative energy sources for Europe to come on stream (years?)
>> - Russian gas revenue will be diminished making funding of the war more difficult

Repair is one thing. N/S 2 was vetoed before carrying a single cubic metre commercially. The Russkies have isolated N/S 1 as they claim EU/UN sanctions prevent maintenance/repair.

Unless both supplier and customer agree terms repairs are moot.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Kevin
Nordstream is dead. Technically, politically and environmentally.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Kevin
An article from Der Speigel about the Nord Stream attacks:

tinyurl.com/ycybya6x

Free and in English.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut
Had a Smart Meter fitted by contractor for SO energy on 9th September.

The gas meter seems not to be reporting its readings. The home display unit only shows the leccy. Reported issue to SO who initially told me I hadn't got a smart gas meter - this in spite of my message to them giving the type. They're now looking into it. I've also had no September statement from them.

Guy who fitted it assured me I didn't need to do anything about readings as they would be reported. However, when I tried to check readings this morning while the electricity appears to have reported in on the stroke of midnight the gas is badgering me for a start reading but won't let me enter it as 0000 even though that's what the installer's sticker.

Think I'll have to gird myself and phone them on Monday.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bobby
My dads smart meter table top display doesn’t work. Can’t get it to connect to either of the meters.
But the meters themselves are still sending their readings to the supplier ok.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
This page supposedly tells you about your smart meters, though it isn't reliable for me - smartmetercheck.citizensadvice.org.uk/

This site enables you to look at your historical data (though maybe your supplier already has a portal that does this) data.n3rgy.com/home
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - zippy
My IHD (In Home Display) often loses the signal to the meters.


The electricity company (Octopus) allows me to download data but often days worth are missing.

Flawed and useless technology as far as I can see from my experience.

I guess if they go to peak pricing, the gaps in data will make it impossible to use properly and will probably prove more expensive for me.

All it saves them is a visit from a meter reader.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
A retired friend of mine worked decades ago on smart metering. Then the idea was driven by smart pricing, not saving on meter readers. He is appalled that it has taken so long to achieve almost nothing with them.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
As I've discussed here for a few years now, I'm with Octopus on smart metering.

Your experience isn't unique, but they sort it out eventually.

The purpose and usage (and potential) for smart metering has obviously passed you by as it does a whole load more than saving a meter reader.

Most importantly time of use tariffs, which enable consumers to shift their heavy loads to cheaper periods in the tariff, and Octopus themselves are trialling a car charging tariff (Intelligent Octopus) which give them the ability to charge your car (within parameters you set) at time slots to suit both you and them.

The tariff I am on will not attract the government support payment, as the notional unit cost is already below the 34p cap. My average since my tariff rose in June is about 17p a unit, but the peak rate (for 20 hours a day) is 36p.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - zippy
>>
>> The purpose and usage (and potential) for smart metering has obviously passed you by as
>> it does a whole load more than saving a meter reader.
>>

Hi Smokie, I have just seen your post...

I was aware of the underlying reason for smart meters but don't consider it a benefit to the consumer who will be hit with higher charges for peak time usage and lower charges at very off peak hours which are unlikely to suit or help the majority of the population.

I also remember the "Too cheap to meter" phrases bandied about when they wanted to build new nuclear reactors on the South Coast (Dungeness - B). In fact, to encourage new reactors, the Govt has promised builders like EDF a premium for each watt produced.

I think we are being overcharged for lack for foresight and investment and we are now paying for the decommissioning costs of nuclear power stations without benefitting from their output).
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Terry
I think consumers could make extensive use of cheap off-peak rates with limited difficulty.

EVs will become increasingly dominant - recharging for most can be scheduled when other demand and prices are lowest. Dishwashers, washing machines, hot water can be scheduled for off-peak use.

A few weeks ago, I went on a guided tour of Hinckley C - it is a huge engineering task - that anyone could assert it would be too cheap to meter was living a fantasy. Decommissioning costs were certainly under-estimated or largely ignored.

Having said that the Hinckley strike price for electricity now seems a wonderful deal compared to current wholesale electricity prices - a clear case of short-term, short-sighted expediency ignoring the need for long-term energy security.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
>>EVs will become increasingly dominant - recharging for most can be scheduled when other demand and prices are lowest. Dishwashers, washing machines, hot water can be scheduled for off-peak use.

At what point does off-peak become another peak?

I'm on single tariff at the moment. My heating is permanently on, as advised by the supplier/installer. But as I have a well insulated, draught-free house, I'm wondering whether I could just heat between say midnight and 7am.

I have a notion to try it when I have a benchmark for 24/7 operation.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
It becomes less clear what is peak as we move more towards renewable energy, when we are dependent on sun or wind for power - and much of that cannot be stored.

And of course what is peak or off-peak today may not be tomorrow.

Three years ago I was using the Octopus Agile tariff, which in theory (though not in practice with the current energy scenario!!) had a different unit cost every 30 minutes. I mostly used the Home Assistant to decide the best time to do stuff, where I had a choice. The car charging is fine to be switched on and off so it just looked for the cheapest x slots in the desired window and turned the charger on and off. The dishwasher needed a 2 hour contiguous window so it would decide the cheapest window (over the next 24 hours) to wash the dishes. Obviously there are screens to tell you it's plans, and I can now send messages from it too if I want.

That kind of tech is being built into devices already, and Octopus are trialling their Intelligent tariff which does all that working out and control for you, with certain specific car chargers. tinyurl.com/2bhmjvnw Many domestic appliances are already Wi-Fi enabled so could easily be controlled.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
Another purpose for smart meters - Octopus (and other) customers with smart meters may apparently get money for cutting back on usage at peak times.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63175030

Bit annoying really for those of us who are already doing so, and have been for some time, but every little helps...
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Crankcase

>>
>> Bit annoying really for those of us who are already doing so, and have been
>> for some time, but every little helps...
>>

Vaguely jealous making for those of us who don’t and can’t have smart meters too.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Dog
>> customers with smart meters may apparently get money for cutting back on usage at peak times.

My new build will presumably have a 'smart' meter. Tis highly insulated of course, plus a hairy sauce pump for the heating.

All electric unfortunately, spose I can always 'stick in' a multi-fuel stove if the bills get silly.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee

>> All electric unfortunately, spose I can always 'stick in' a multi-fuel stove if the bills
>> get silly.
>>



We have. Also for emergency heating if we were to have extended periods without power. You might make sure the chimney is suitable if they haven't built it yet. We put a pumice chimney in rather than a steel liner. I can give you the details of you want. We put a 6" one in for future proofing although a lot of the current eco stoves are 5".

Just don't put in a high capacity one. Ours is 5kW rated and I doubt if we will ever run it at full power unless we have to heat the whole house with it. Also check the minimum power output. The new stoves can't be throttled right back like the old ones because of the resultant emissions and CO. Ours goes down to 2kW (Charnwood Skye 5). I would also get the external air supply unless you want a draughty hole knocked through your wall for ventilation.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Dog
>> You might make sure the chimney is suitable if they haven't built it yet

Yup, all finished. The come-day-go-day subs are holding up completion. I left a wall tile (sample) outside the front door 2 weeks ago ... and it's still there!

>> We put a pumice chimney in rather than a steel liner

I did look into pumice chimneys for this place last year, but went for a 6" SS jobbie in the end.

Our stove here is a 5kw eco Hamlet Solution Widescreen. I removed the screw which limits the amount y'all can close the air intake, so I can throttle it right back now :)

>> I would also get the external air supply unless you want a draughty hole knocked through your wall for ventilation

I don't think you require an external air supply with a 5 kw stove, but I open the trickle vents anyway.

Orf to drain the Fernox F3 and add the F1 on my Baxi 400 system now. Won't have to do that again though.

 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Fursty Ferret
>> Bit annoying really for those of us who are already doing so, and have been
>> for some time, but every little helps...
>>

Yeah, it is a bit of a kick in the teeth for people who are already using zero power from the grid at peak times. Seems like it would make more sense to reward people for using power at off-peak times instead.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - car4play
[Smokie] Did you sign up for their trial thinggy where they will notify you on the app for you to opt in on reducing power at the peak time in return for credits?

I did but then realised it isn't going to pay anything because they work out how much to give you from your normal usage at that time; in my case, zero...
Last edited by: car4play on Tue 15 Nov 22 at 16:35
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
Yes, I did sign up, though my usage pattern means I don't think I'll benefit from it. There is a view that it isn't about making money, but assisting the grid by spreading load - which is important but I don't get why people kid themselves that they are being martyrs when they are equally in it for what they can get out of it.
 Bill forecast - Manatee
I have no idea how suppliers do their bill forecasts and monthly payment calculation but Mystic Meg could do a better job.

My last 3 monthly bills for June, July and August have been £125, £115, £118. Yet So Energy has just estimated my annual usage at £1204, or £100 per month which is less than I have used in the lowest 3 months with a slightly lower tariff.

With that in mind I have tried to do a better forecast. The data are a bit thin because we have only been living in the house since early April.

Fortunately I have a separate meter on the heat pump, and in July and August when we had no heating on that effectively gives me my domestic hot water (DHW) usage of about 2-3 kWh per day. I also know the total heat pump usage so I can infer my non-heating, none-DHW consumption. I have then applied some seasonality to the heating, and a little bit to the DHW and the 'other' to allow for more use of lights, cooking, and winter baths!

The result is an annual consumption of 8127KwH, current cost £2,990.
41% - heating
12% - DHW
47% - everything else.

"everything else" includes the MVHR (ventilation system) at an assumed £400 per year. Just before I rushed to turn it off and open some windows, I remembered that it recovers heat from used air and the energy recovered is more than the energy used.

I admit I was hoping for a better result financially but the kWh figure doesn't look too bad - it's the tariff. All electric of course. In the draughty old bungalow we knocked down, which had about half the living area, in 2013 we were using 7000+kWh of electric and over 27000+kWh of gas for heating!

Makes me ponder what we are doing, and what we can do, regarding climate change.
 Bill forecast - Fursty Ferret
I’m with Octopus. My online account has resolutely shown £0 for three months now. I don’t know whether to say something and let them fix it, or stay resolutely silent for the next few years knowing that they can only grab back 12 months of use. They’re getting my readings because half-hourly usage is showing.

I think I tried to use my own referral code when I rejoined and it appears to have broken everything.
Last edited by: Fursty Ferret on Tue 4 Oct 22 at 11:49
 Bill forecast - martin aston
I’m with Shell and they’ve reduced my direct debit by £60 odd quid. Presumably this is for the govt support package. This is fine for those lucky enough to be in credit. What about those in arrears? If they take the same approach of reducing the DD they risk increasing the amount of arrears.

I appreciate that the bottom line maths is the same in theory. However for those who are struggling it seems an odd approach.
 Bill forecast - CGNorwich
OVO have reduced my charge for energy in October by £66 and then processed a refund of £66 which has been credited to my bank account.

Not sure why they didn’t just retain the credit on my OVO account but I guess it’s all the same in the end.
 Bill forecast - car4play
Ah - that would the recursive referral code trick. Should have thought of it myself!
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
I wonder what the plan will be to support/subsidies energy bills next winter? Perhaps just help those on UC and Pension credit?
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
I must say, it seems much more sensible to have changed it to a short term commitment which can easily be changed according to how the land lies at the time.

Anyway, aren't the high prices being largely caused by the Ukraine war, and therefore will drop back once it's over? (Yes, I realise that's unlikely...)
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 18 Oct 22 at 09:27
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
Price subsidies are nearly always a bad thing as the distort the market and slow changes in buying behaviour. In the case of energy of course low income families need help but not everyone.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Falkirk Bairn
The problem is we (governments over the last 30 years) have painted ourselves into a corner on Energy.

No huge investments in the National Grid - one-offs, here & there, but not sustained over decades.
Generation used to be planned by CEGB (electricity) to plan ahead for decades - always ensuring we had enough capacity for the peaks, for replacement of old plant and maintenance shutdowns.

We gave up the CEGB and sold everything off to commercial companies who look at their bottom line and ask what is the minimum/simplest way for the next few years. Hence the dependence on North Sea gas which would have heated to UK for decades more BUT for the fact we burned it in Gas Power Stations in the last 25 years.

Electricity Investment, over the last 10+ years, has been Wind (& solar) both fatally flawed as there is no guarantee of when & how much power there will be.

11,000 Windmills = 2GW one day, or even less, and 15GW the next. Peak demand in winter cold spell often means High Pressure over UK & no wind.

It will take decades to get back to some price stability of supply and have security of supply = less dependent on imports of electricity from France etc and less dependent on Gas spot market blackmail pricing.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Terry
There is a case for energy subsidies if there is a reasonable expectation that the price will fall back in the future. No different to furlough scheme during the pandemic - it saved a lot of people from huge financial stress and has rightly now been withdrawn.

The problem with UK energy capacity goes back ~three decades.

The regulator, despite having responsibility for capacity, has failed to ensure sufficient investment. This may be due to consumer and government) pressure over energy charges as investment and spare capacity costs money.

Various governments delayed approval of nuclear and wind turbines. No new nuclear has come online since 1995. Hinckley C is years late. Sizewell C still an aspiration. Licences for new wind turbines have only just been issued after 7 years of close to zero progress. Pathetic!!

Policy has been driven by public opinion, often formed by minority interest groups. As critical infrastructure, government must drive through that which is needed, not appoint more commissions, reports, consultations and other time consuming (wasting) tactics.

The final problem is complacency. Relative price stability (shattered by Ukraine disruption) made acting earlier to increase independence seem costly. Remember the fuss over the Hinckley C price - now it seems a good deal, then it was an outrageous waste of money.

Sadly, we get what we vote for and are prepared to pay for.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Kevin
European Gas Glut

Bloomberg article reports that gas prices are now less than one third of their summertime peak but the crisis is far from over.

tinyurl.com/yckm2nub
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
It’s a very mild Autumn in Europe leading to lower than anticipated demand. 17C here this afternoon. A cold spell could change everything.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 25 Oct 22 at 19:14
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - legacylad
Friend staying with me on the C Blanca runs the air con for a few hours before retiring to bed....unseasonably warm.
That must use up a fair bit of energy...I love hot weather and avoid AC whenever possible.
Spanish govt have introduced a max of 19C for heating in public buildings this winter, and a minimum of 27C for AC and cooling in both public and private offices, cultural facilities and transport facilities.

Bless their little cotton socks...they’ll have to go to Damart for some base layers.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
www.itv.com/news/2022-11-10/government-must-change-policy-on-onshore-windfarms-to-achieve-net-zero

I wonder if the government will change the law in favour of on shore wind. I get the impression core Conservative voters don't like them, but maybe its something else.

I'm sure labour will change the rules when they get in.

I don't see what the fuss about them is. I don't mind them at all.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Clk Sec
>> I'm sure labour will change the rules when they get in.

Shudder...

 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
>> I'm sure labour will change the rules when they get in.

There will be a lot of stuff to repeal and reinstate when these crooks are eventually got rid of.

Unfortunately Labour will face the same constraints as the Conservatives in terms of tax and spending. If the latter were at least competent, Labour would be better to leave them to take the pain they have created for a bit longer. If I were Starmer I don't think I'd want an election just yet.

I don't know why anybody is concerned about a Labour government. The Conservatives have become UKIP, and Starmer has swerved so far right he's probably nearer to what Conservatives used to be than they are.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
Latest onshore turbines towers being built in Denmark are 99m high without the blades. Look forward to the reaction after the erection of a few hundred of those in Surrey.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 11 Nov 22 at 10:18
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
There are plenty of onshore places that are more suitable and less populated. But I do think they should have a few.

It does seem daft to "ban" onshore wind generation. I don't recall any numbers but I'm pretty sure offshore is significantly more costly.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
I'm not sure where the best places are to put them onshore, somewhere near the coast I would imagine.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Terry
Onshore wind is cheaper than offshore due to (a) installation costs and (b) challenges in maintenance and service of offshore turbines.

Onshore turbines are likely to favour the west coast of the UK where winds are constant and stronger - most weather systems travel from west to east across the Atlantic.

They will normally be located on coastal sites or on top of hills where they get maximum exposure to the wind. There will be some inland installations at higher levels - but mostly turbulence created by topography reduces wind speeds and efficiency.

As a society we have a choice:

- onshore wind is cheapest green power source but comes with visual intrusion
- continuing with fossil fuels - an environmental and and economic dead end
- nuclear - expensive but reliable generation base - long term environmental risk?
- offshore wind - green but relatively expensive

If the UK wants to transition quickly to zero carbon, onshore wind will be the quickest and cheapest. Long term strategy should embrace the benefits of other technologies, including improved building standards, insulation and energy control technologies etc.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
I like scenery as much as the next person, but when you drive round "far away" (from me) places (like Yorkshire, or Wales, there are many very remote areas where no-one local could claim a wind farm would be intrusive, so it's just a bit of a blot for sightseers and hikers - and there would still be plenty of land left for them. Solar farms can be even more unobtrusive. If people were given the choice of an unreliable electricity supply or some windmills I'm sure the resistance would be less.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - zippy
>> I'm not sure where the best places are to put them onshore, somewhere near the
>> coast I would imagine.
>>

At 99m, not near any buildings that they might fall on! :-D

Seriously though. These are a no - brainer. Yes they are expensive, need maintenance (have you seen the damage that particles in the air do to the blades) but produce much greener power and are importantly under our control.

Farmland has got to be the best bet IMHO because they can be "braked" when the field needs to be ploughed, sowed and harvested. At most other times they can be just left to run. Gives farmers a rental income also. They are a lot easier to maintain as well (no ships needed, less bad weather restrictions re maintenance). They can't be as big though and so don't generate quite the same output as offshore farms.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
Someone on another forum has just done a calculation on replacing 12 halogen downlighters with LED. Looks like he's comparing 50w halogen with 5w LED. It goes like this

2.5 X 12 X 45 = 1,350 watts saved per day.
9.450 watts (9.45kW) saved per week
491 kW saved per year

@36P per unit £176.90 a year

The bulbs cost just over £3 each by buying bulk, by this time next year £140 in profit.
if they last 10,000 hours then they will last in excess of 10 years. So a £1700 profit on a £30 investment.

That's not a bad return on investment then, while prices are high!
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - henry k
"if they last 10,000 hours then they will last in excess of 10 years"
Yet another of my LEDs needs replacing. It is a good job it is DIY.
I must order some more LED for LED replacements.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
>> "if they last 10,000 hours then they will last in excess of 10 years"

yeah - dream on territory. Three years is about average for an LED mains bulb of any configuration.

As an investment strategy it therefore doesn't pay to swap them en mass, but it does to replace failed hallogen/incandescent with LED as required
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
>>Three years is about average for an LED mains bulb of any configuration.

Hmmm. I've 50 7.5W downlights installed that don't have removable lamps and cost over £10 each. I could do without replacing those at average 3 years.

www.tradesparky.com/lamps-and-lighting/fittings-led/downlights/jcc-jc1001nb-downlight-v50-led-7w

They are rated at 50,000 hours. They come with individual separate transformers. Maybe that means they can last longer than replacement 'bulbs' that have all the electronics built in. I hope.

I fished out the spare to look this up. I had assumed they were all c. 5W. Seems they are a bit more than that. Glad I put dimmers in the sitting room. Now I know why the kitchen, bathrooms, hall and landing are lit up like an operating theatre.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero

>> They are rated at 50,000 hours. They come with individual separate transformers. Maybe that means
>> they can last longer than replacement 'bulbs' that have all the electronics built in. I
>> hope.

Yeah, you should be ok, its nearly always the capacitors in the power supply part of the LED bulb that fails.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Clk Sec
>> As an investment strategy it therefore doesn't pay to swap them en mass, but it
>> does to replace failed hallogen/incandescent with LED as required

Indeed.

We've got a shed load of ceiling lights - there's even 4 in the garden room. They're a mix of halogens/LEDs, and the previous occupants have only replaced halogens in areas that have been refurbished.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
That's OK if you can put up with lights of different colours. I wouldn't be allowed to get away with that so I've always bought a couple spares when replacing lighting in a room.

I think one of the easiest and greatest single savings I made years ago was swapping to LEDs. I don't have failure every 3 years any more, can't think of the last time one went - though that was my experience in their early days, and/or with the cheap ones. They were an odd greenish sort of colour IIRC.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Terry
LEDs that I've have installed fairly recently seem far more reliable. Cheap made in China LEDs initially put in 5+ years ago tended to fail at a considerable rate.

Overall there must be ~30-40 LEDs now installed in my house - I don't recall replacing more than one or two in the last two years.

IMHO if you still have incandescent or halogen bulbs - replace them now. It makes both financial sense, and you can feel virtuous in doing your bit to limit global warming!
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
Does anybody actually have incandescents (Tungsten) any more? If so then I would replace them instantly. When we moved back 'home' from the rental, I looked at a floor lamp my wife had been using as a reading lamp for about 3 hours a day. The bulb was a bit candle-shaped but blunt at the top, 'pearl' glass. I inspected it carefully and the rating of 150W was printed on it!

That leaves CFL's (flourescent) which are not as efficient as LED, and halogen, which from memory are nearly as bad as incandescents.

CFL's are probably about half as efficient as LED so hanging on to those for a while shouldn't be too bad. I'd go for immediate replacement on halogen or tungsten/incandescent.

Still, in these inflationary times anything you want to buy is quite likely to go up 10% or more next week. Lamps that you will use eventually are money in the bank. Probably nothing to be saved in the long run by hanging on to pre-LED.

Our rental house was nearly all CFL. The whole CFL era to me was like living in twilight. They had to warm up before they gave full brightness, then as they aged they seemed to get dimmer and dimmer.

The downlights I mentioned upthread aren't bad. They can be switched between warm white and cool white. I think ours are all set to warm white but I haven't checked and I'd have to take the bezels off to change them anyway.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Crankcase
We still have four incandescents in the lounge in the wall lights. Mrs C likes the colour. I put some other thing in them once and she didn’t like the colour.

So we still have four incandescents in the lounge in the wall lights. And I’ve bought some more rough service ones from the bay for when these fail, though they’ve been there years.

At 60 watts each it keeps the room warmer too, so less heat required from other sources. I’m probably saving money. Probably.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
www.itv.com/news/calendar/2022-11-15/warning-after-tumble-dryers-catch-fire-as-users-try-to-save-money

quite possible to there'll be more of these types of fires at night from white goods left on overnight.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
"Ms Laidlow-Moore, Fire Prevention manager, said: "Overloading sockets, using the wrong chargers and not checking the wiring on electrical products can all cause fires.

Careless not to point out that tumble driers require regular de-linting.

"We know it’s tempting to save money by buying items online instead of purchasing the branded equivalent, but it can often be a false economy as they can often increase the risk of fire."

I buy online but they are usually branded.

Maybe she was edited.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
They do need filters cleaning, I think though that it's more likely to be a risk to the house at night when people are going to be asleep.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
>>Careless not to point out that tumble driers require regular de-linting.

Another flashback.

In 1987/8 I was living in Huddersfield and working near Harrow for 2/3 days a week. For a while I spent a couple of nights each week in one of a number of 'serviced' rooms that happened to be above Macdonalds in Wealdstone (prime location). A lady came in daily to make breakfast, clean and wash the linen etc. She always left the tumble dryer on with orders to set it going again for the maximum 2 hours if any of us residents were to find it had stopped. It was always left on when I left for work.

It was baffling that things took so long to dry. One day I and another chap investigated and found that the filter was absolutely stuffed with fluff, as solid as carpet felt.

To think she could have been responsible for the destruction of the prime fine dining location in the area!

The improvement in performance of the dryer was startling.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - bathtub tom
My daughter bought a house that included the white goods. After a few weeks she complained the tumble dryer had stopped working. I asked the usual about the lint filter - she didn't have a clue. Eventually discovered it was a condenser dryer and no-one had bothered to empty the water tank. The filter was completely blocked.

She had a Miele vacuum cleaner that stopped working. I found the bag rammed and assumed a thermal cut-out had tripped. Again, she said she didn't know it had to be emptied.

Both her and her husband have degrees!
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Biggles
Surely the intracacies of domestic appliances are learnt in the school of mum and dad.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - bathtub tom
>> Surely the intracacies of domestic appliances are learnt in the school of mum and dad.

Seems we were sadly remiss there, SWMBO was a teacher. I tried to drum into them the importance of regular car checks, but one put anti-freeze in the washer bottle and runs with no oil on the dipstick. The other has wrecked tyres by running them flat.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
>> Surely the intracacies of domestic appliances are learnt in the school of mum and dad.
>>
And may be checked by reading the instructions helpfully included with the product.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Dog
>>Both her and her husband have degrees!

But no common sense.

:o}
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bobby
I have a wife who takes the hair drain catcher thing from the shower and scrubs it clean in the bathroom sink…..
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - zippy
Found on the Interweb...

Dear Ovo,

I signed up with you because you offered 100% renewable electricity, wind power etc. and your documentation confirms this.

Can I ask how the feck the price of wind has doubled recently you thieving b*********s?


:-D
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
I did see they working looking at how electricity prices are worked out to allow for the fact more leccy comes from wind.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - zippy
I am not a religious person. Mrs Z goes to church (Anglican) on Sunday mornings.

Her church published its "accounts" this week.

The running costs are in the region of £150k per year from <£90k last year. Heat and lighting this year is £30k up from £8k last year! Insurances have doubled.

The church isn't a "high" church and it has a lot of social clubs for needy parishioners, including meal services, mini library and visiting services.

It will be such a shame if it, and others become unsustainable as it has a tangible benefit to the community.


 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
I think it will take a few years for the CofE and the Catholic church to go bust. Whether or not they will support their parishes is another matter.
 Heating v Tumble Dryer - Bobby
Have had to resort to putting the gas Central heating on to dry the washing on the clothes horses. Obviously residual benefit is get to be warm as well!

But do wonder whether it’s cheaper to have the heating on for a day or to blitz it all in the tumble dryer (probably 10+ years old) maybe 2-3 hours?

Thoughts?
 Heating v Tumble Dryer - bathtub tom
Using clothes horses inside, means the water stays inside and may well condense somewhere. I'd opt for the tumble dryer.
 Heating v Tumble Dryer - Bobby
Have dried clothes inside for the last 30 winters with no issues of moisture build up in house. Even breaking all the rules and having all the radiators covered with the clothes. But have also always had the heating on.

Hung up a washing couple weeks back just before I went to bed, no heating on and when I got up in morning the windows were covered in condensation.
 Heating v Tumble Dryer - Bromptonaut
What's the power rating of the tumble dryer - how much per hour to run it?

We got one of the heat pump type, a Bosch, about 5 years ago. Max rating is 1kw but the in house display for the Smart Meter suggests it's often running at around half of that.
 Heating v Tumble Dryer - Bobby
Power rating 2650W!!!

It has high and low heat settings.
And then on each of them, it has a high or low heat option! :)

Nothing in life is simple!
 Heating v Tumble Dryer - smokie
That's almost an electric kettle!!
 Octopus Meter Dispute - zippy
Miss Z is in a rented flat. She has an Octopus smart meter for Gas & Electricity.

Somewhere along the line Octopus have cocked up the meter number and seem to be billing Miss Z for the nearby shopping centre.

Miss Z has sent them photos of her meters, with its serial number and reading but they claim that it cannot be hers!

They are also trying to charge her for usage before her tenancy agreement started and she has sent them a copy of the agreement with start date and council tax bill with start dates.

To fix the issue they are insisting that she does a gas and electricity "burn" that is to put the gas heating and hot water on full for a couple of hours and the same with heavy use electrical appliances like the cooker!

Given the cost of fuel and that we are supposed to be saving, I find this advise really weird. I also can't see how that will let Octopus know she has the right meter?
Last edited by: zippy on Sun 18 Dec 22 at 21:58
 Octopus Meter Dispute - Kevin
By doing a 'burn' Octopus should be able to see (from the readings sent back to the mothership) which particular meter is suddenly reporting high usage. They presumably keep a record of the meter numbers installed by the same techie or in the same week etc.
Tell Miss Z to take readings/photos immediately before and after the 'burn' so she has proof of how much energy was used at their behest.
 Octopus Meter Dispute - Fullchat
Going on their methodology who's to say its her appliances which she is to 'burn'?
 Octopus Meter Dispute - zippy
Thanks Kevin, I will pass that on!
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut
Anyone else with SO energy?

We've not had an account statement from them since 10th August. We had a Smart Meter fitted in September but after an initial hiatus with gas it's been contacting SO and readings are taken on the correct date October-December inclusive.

I've repeatedly asked for an explanation both on the phone and by email but have got nowhere. A promise that it will be referred to the relevant team is made but then I here nothing more. When I first spoke I got the clear impression that there was a generic billing problem but since then agents have been cagey.

As I'm showing as over £1k in credit I've stopped the direct debit and told them I will restore it once they've reconciled my actual usage.

Would be interested to hear if other customers are affected.

 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
Many others seem to have similar problems.

uk.trustpilot.com/review/so.energy
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - legacylad
Makes me glad I don’t have a smart meter.

A pal lives 300 yards up the road...several visits to try and install a smart meter before the supplier finally gave up.
On the last occasion two chaps turned up...apparently because a step ladder was involved it was a requirement. H & S you know.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut
>> Makes me glad I don’t have a smart meter.

Installation of a smart meter seems to be a trigger here but it doesn't account for SO's failure to either provide statements or a proper explanation of their failure to do so. Having got one I'm finding both the in house display and the fact I no longer need to remember to read the meter on the 10th of every month 'good things'.

 Energy bills - Volume 4 - zippy
>> Makes me glad I don’t have a smart meter.
>>

They are coming to everyone eventually.

I wouldn't mind, but mine seems so unreliable - the IHD (the screen in the house) often cannot connect to the meter and the meter often fails to pass consumption figures to the power company so I get lots of gaps in my usage data.

 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
Try the 'Loop' app if you want to see daily usage.

loop.homes/

I have So Energy. Unfortunately I left the IHD in the last house as I was mistaken about who had sent it to me. Loop doesn't do instantaneous but seems to update every hour or so. It will retrieve historic data. Mine took a couple of days to do that.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Dog
Nice deep-red Grrr outside the Jamaica Inn at 2:30pm today = Early doors?
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - legacylad
>> Nice deep-red Grrr outside the Jamaica Inn at 2:30pm today = Early doors?
>>
Wrong thread Dog. And wrong colour.

The only Jamaica Inn you’ll see me is close to the waterfront at Denia. Good tapas. Nice atmosphere.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Kevin
>The only Jamaica Inn you’ll see me is close to the waterfront at Denia...

Ever tried to use the gent's loo there?
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - legacylad
>> >The only Jamaica Inn you’ll see me is close to the waterfront at Denia...
>>
>> Ever tried to use the gent's loo there?
>>
Probably.
Occasional Sunday mornings we park at Mirador las Rotas and follow the coastline North into Denia. Alternatively we head in the opposite direction over Cabo San Antonio and drop into Javea for lunch via the old moulins.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Kevin
Triangular stone walled broom cupboard about 3x3x3ft on RHS just inside door. You wouldn't get in there if you still needed crutches.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - legacylad
>> Nice deep-red Grrr outside the Jamaica Inn at 2:30pm today = Early doors?
>>
Wrong thread Dog. And wrong colour. And if there’s a pub involved you won’t see my car.

The only Jamaica Inn you’ll see me is close to the waterfront at Denia. Good tapas. Nice atmosphere.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - zippy
Gawd Legacylad, you need to see the quack, you're forgetting that you've already posted that!

:-D
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Fullchat
Quality pain killing medication? :)
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - legacylad
No. Quite the opposite. Day 2 of my weekly 3 consecutive alcohol free days.
I should be out celebrating throwing away the crutches today....3 weeks since I was discharged.

Next objective is the Marshals Walk for ‘That’s Lyth’...full event is 24m but the Marshals, on8th Jan, is only 18 m. So 3 weeks hence. Something to aim for.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Dog
Right colour for me leglad, looked very nice.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut
>> Many others seem to have similar problems.
>>
>> uk.trustpilot.com/review/so.energy

So(!!) yesterday I placed a review on Trust Pilot adding to those making similar complaints.

By noon today I've had (i) an explanation, albeit in exactly the same terms as those quoted by others (merger with ESB etc, and (ii) the first of the four missing statements covering the period up to my Smart Meter being installed in September.

I've been escalated as a complaint and told that my case will be with a named Senior Customer Resolutions Advisor until it's sorted. They will also credit my account with £30.

Now it's a wait/see as to whether the three missing statements for October to December inclusive turn up.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bobby
Was particularly cold here last week, never really got into positive temps till weekend and had hit - 9 overnight.

Lots of local stories about burst pipes and broken boilers due to frozen condensates.

Over the course of the week, Sunday night to Sunday night, according to Hive, my boiler was on for 61 hours. The highest temp I had the thermostat set at was 18 degrees. Most of the time was 12 degrees.

Gas and elec bill for the week was £104! One week! That was my monthly payment not that long ago!

Last week I went through the whole mindset of I work , why should I be sitting freezing in my house???

Thankfully much milder today but the heating will not be going on and I am buying one of those oversized fleece things from Costco for my day to day heat!!
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
My heat pump power consumption has better than halved for the 2 days since the thaw, £5.30 per day vs. about £13.50 per day for the previous 12 days. Air source heat pumps rally don't like very cold weather.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
Thats not a very useful attribute.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
>> Thats not a very useful attribute.

No it's not, is it. It would be more handier if it became more efficient when it got colder. But the real issue is the price of electricity. During the freeze it was consuming an average of a bit under 40kWh/day, to provide space heating and hot water. We kept the living areas at about 21C. So not bad really. Last 2 days it's used under 15kWh per day.

I reckon the gas boiler in our last house used 140kWh/day when it was cold. But of course that only cost about £4 then.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero

>> I reckon the gas boiler in our last house used 140kWh/day when it was cold.
>> But of course that only cost about £4 then.

That was you old draughty thermally inefficient house. Its a pity you cant compare like environment for like environment.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
I was actually thinking of the rental, which was a 4 bed semi, and not too badly insulated, but I take your point.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
Air
>> source heat pumps rally don't like very cold weather.
>>

I wonder if the ground source pumps are better, i think they are popular in Scandinavia.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
>> Air
>> >> source heat pumps rally don't like very cold weather.
>> >>
>>
>> I wonder if the ground source pumps are better, i think they are popular in
>> Scandinavia.

I should think so, especially the vertically oriented collectors - Aren't underground temps much less variable than air temps?

We have enough area for ground source but the water table is high so we would have had to dig in the dry season! Also I might not live long enough to get the payback on the extra outlay (I never tried to work it out).
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
I should think so, especially the vertically oriented collectors - Aren't underground temps much less
>> variable than air temps?
>>
>

I believe that they less affected by the temp. I've not seen much on the vertical ones but they appealing as they require little space compared to the 'loop' underground ones. Costwise I don't know what they cost though.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 20 Dec 22 at 19:01
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - bathtub tom
>>We have enough area for ground source but the water table is high

Colleague has a GSHP. Has a well in the garden and was told water was a good sign.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
Actually that’s not too bad. My gas consumption was running at about £12 per day last week with a further £3 for electricity. That’s a modern condensing boiler in a modern 4 bedroom house with reasonable insulation.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
How often do you have the CH on for pay day, what sort of temp?
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut
>> How often do you have the CH on for pay day, what sort of temp?

For us, it was on a lot longer during the cold snap than today.

Thermostat nominally the usual 18.5 but in practice a bit more to deal with cold spots.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
07:00 to 23:00. 19c
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
19c

7.00 to 10.00 in the morning
3.30 to 10.30 in the evening
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
>> How often do you have the CH on for pay day, what sort of temp?

It's on 24/7, the living rooms, 2 bedrooms and bathrooms are at about 21, the rest probably 17 ish.

The stats are a bit higher than that but they are about 1.6m off the floor. Wife insists on checking the temperature on the coffee table next to her (she nearly always feels cold regardless).

Heat pumps + UFH are the least responsive form of heating hence running round the clock.

There's an overhead to turning off a heat pump and restarting it, and the UFH takes hours to heat a room from cold. It's tweakable to a degree (ha ha) but best efficiency is at low flow temperatures. When it's over 15C out, the flow is at 30C, when it's below freezing the flow temp goes up to 40C to provide enough heat (it tapers in between on what's called a weather compensation curve). I could use a higher flow temp to heat from cold quicker but it would hurt efficiency. Theoretical best efficiency would be to set the flow temp so the heating exactly compensated for the heat loss.

People with rads need higher flow temps because their emitters are smaller.

Is it any wonder people have problems with these things:)
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
Is it any wonder people have problems with these things:)
>>

I do wonder how people will get on if they just want to heat the house like you do with a gas boiler. Perhaps they'll come on in ease of use in the coming years.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
They can be very easy to use, just set it going and don't touch it. Provided it's properly designed, installed properly, and commissioned properly. Other than adjusting the stats, mine is running as delivered apart from me reducing the legionella cycle from weekly to fortnightly. It uses 5kWh of immersion heater every time it runs.

I might actually stop it altogether, I can't see how it's going to get legionella in it unless it gets into the water softener but it doesn't hang around in there. I suppose I'll have to do a risk assessment!
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
>> They can be very easy to use,

Maybe it's the way you explain it ;)
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - zippy
This Christmas naughty children will be given £1 coins instead of an expensive lump of coal.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - bathtub tom
>> I can't see how it's going to get legionella in it

AIUI, it's already everywhere, just the quantity makes it dangerous.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Zero
>> >> I can't see how it's going to get legionella in it
>>
>> AIUI, it's already everywhere, just the quantity makes it dangerous.

My son makes a living out of testing installations for it, he has plenty of work
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
I think we get told if a cw tap hasn't been run for 2 weeks then before you use it to run it for 5 minutes. I believe it's due to possibility of legionella.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
>> I think we get told if a cw tap hasn't been run for 2 weeks
>> then before you use it to run it for 5 minutes. I believe it's due
>> to possibility of legionella.
>>

Interesting. I thought no our highest risks is probably the showers that don't get used unless we have visitors. More likely to breed in there than in the hot tank.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 21 Dec 22 at 13:08
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bobby
>>How often do you have the CH on for pay day, what sort of temp?

After last weeks gas bill, haven’t had the heating on since Sunday! But last week it was never higher than 18.
Last edited by: Bobby on Tue 20 Dec 22 at 22:46
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - legacylad
My brother had solar panels installed many years ago....until 3 years ago, with the feed in tariff, his electricity cost for the year was £5. Or so he told me.
I imagine it’s jumped a fair bit the past 12+months
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
I guess he's saying he received x amount FIT and paid out x +£5. On that basis over the past (approx) 12 months I've paid out £828 (£1324 inc gas) and received £1642!

In 2020 (before the EV) I paid out about £477 for elec, £569 the year before and £604 the year before that. So it seems I've been getting ever more efficient...

Anyway, seems I oughtn't be complaining about the current prices then :-)
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Kevin
Gas futures in Europe for next month dropped to ~80€/MWh today. Back to pre Ukraine war prices.

www.ft.com/content/6f83306f-14ef-458f-a47e-1cac9c6c6dc6
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - smokie
Paywalled -can get 4 weeks for £1 then £55 a month - really?

Anyway, yes, I 'd become aware of that yesterday. A bloke on another forum seems well informed on UK and European energy and yesterday wrote this (rather long) post n Sunday

"I have been following the electricity generation and gas delivery over the last 9 months, longer in terms of electricity. The gas prices which pushed up electricity are now falling. Gas futures have been higher than 450p a Therm (30 kWh to a Therm roughly). Today gas futures are down to 220p and have been falling consistently for the last couple of weeks. Russian gas has proved to be dispensable , Germany, the main customer was buying 50% of its gas from Russia. They have cut consumption by 15% leaving a shortfall of ~35%. The UK has been receiving LNG from Qatar and the US in boat loads, with a one way traffic of LNG converted to gas piped to the continent plus 4-5 GW of electricity sent via interconnectors too. That has been a massive effort rarely publicised by the press. Other routes from Italy and Spain have added to the supply to the extent that European gas storage reached 100% full by the end of November. This was far above what was expected and hoped for. The recent cold spell has led to a withdrawal of gas stocks to 84%. But industry is closed for the most part across Europe for 2 weeks and as of Friday, it was mild and windy, tankers were offloading LNG and wind farms were producing sufficient electricity that gas was being returned to storage in the UK and the gas interconnectors running at half output, but that is still equal to about 25 GW of gas or 12 GW of electricity. (CCGT being about 50% efficient.)
Germany has opened its first of 5 floating LNG terminals, this will provide about 10% of its gas and tankers are on their way to offload now.
World LNG supplies were hampered in 2022 by accidents on 2 major LNG export terminals, one off Australia and the other Freeport in the States. Those 2 terminals are normally filling tankers at the rate of 3 a day. The Australian terminal came on line in the autumn, Freeport will restart at half cock any day now, though they are having difficulties satisfying the safety regulators.

"Depending on how far ahead the energy firms have hedged, the government intervened to force hedging after Bulb collapsed, the effect of price falls may be felt before winter next year.

"The UK‘s wind power has had a high output this autumn, in part helping gas stocks, but also making a packet for the Low Cost Carbon Company on the cfds it has awarded. Over this autumn SeaGreen wind farm has been built and it should be complete some time in February. Neart Na Goithe will follow in the autumn along with Viking wind farm on Shetland. Dogger Bank A another 1.2 GW wind farm has been started but awaits the arrival of a new heavy lift crane in April. With only about 80 turbines to install it is also scheduled to be ready by next winter. Altogether that is an additional 3 GW of generation that wasn’t there last October.

"In the meantime French nuclear reactors are coming back on line with 40 GW of the fleet available. Another 5 GW due back by late spring. That is 50% more than last autumn.

"So altogether there should be no shortage of electricity to share round Europe and gas stocks will be built up over the summer again. There isn’t a shortage of gas it just needs to be moved around. In 3 years time Qatar should have another massive lng plant to export its massive gas resources and the problem fixed.

"So the high electricity prices should fall quite quickly and certainly by December 2023 we should be looking at prices around 15p a kWh or less.


He writes interesting, if a bit lengthy, stuff - may not always be right, we will see...

 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
Seems a bit unlikely. Cornwall Institute who have a good track record in forecasting energy prices are predicting 66.76 per KWh in 2nd quarter 2023 dropping to 46.34 by fourth quarter.

Current subsidised price is 34 per KWh

www.cornwall-insight.com/predicted-fall-in-the-april-2023-price-cap-but-prices-remain-significantly-above-the-epg/
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut
>> www.cornwall-insight.com/predicted-fall-in-the-april-2023-price-cap-but-prices-remain-significantly-above-the-epg/

Difference may be that the Cornwall report is two months old whereas the FT, Smokie's contact (and Guardian too) are reporting prices now. Various things around wind power, movement of LNG and gas to UK and out again over inter-connectors, plus milder weather either side of the cold snap have changed the narrative.

Probably best to be cautious though; the whole thing could be stood on its head again in a week.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
Possibly but see the report’s comments on the effect of hedging on price in the first three quarters of year. I think the possibility of electricity at 15p per KWH seems rather unlikely.

 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
Prices only make sense when linked to quantity. I don't pretend to understand the gas market but presume these are in effect marginal prices. Is it the case that much of the gas that we and the generators will consume next year has ready been bought at much higher prices?
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - CGNorwich
Yes. Basically buying guarantee of supply.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
I wonder if the gov might readjust the basis that electricity prices are worked out, i see a few of the smaller companies are lobbying to change it.

From what i understand it's based on gas prices, and gas is reducing as a % of electricity generated. They want the price that wind turbines can produce electricity to be given greater weight. Only problem will be the large amount of gas that has been purchased, they may be sold at a loss and put the companies involved in financial difficulty.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
AIUI the link is indirect. The price for electricity at a given time is the highest bid price but gas remains a big part of generating capacity. Gas turbines can be turned up and down and gas generators will not produce at uneconomic prices. I'm sure it gets more complicated with futures which probably cover a lot of the demand.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
. I'm
>> sure it gets more complicated with futures which probably cover a lot of the demand.
>>

From what i understand there's three markets, a demand market which solar and wind sell to along with the most of the others. Capacity market, which is gas and coal, renewables can't sell into this market. Then, i believe, nuclear has its own market.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Manatee
That can presumably only work with futures, and could give rise to different prices. Nuclear would perhaps offer the best price for a constant energy supply, gas for peak time supply, and wind/solar for a less predictable one.

Spot prices must be aligned because electric energy is fungible.

Claudia Webbe MP just tweeted
"It doesn’t seem right to me that these energy companies can rip people off while the wholesale prices they are paying have totally collapsed.

Surely that’s exploitation?"

I wish MPs would try and acquaint themselves with the facts before gobbing off, i.e. who exactly is making the superprofits and why.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - Bromptonaut
>> Claudia Webbe MP just tweeted
>> "It doesn’t seem right to me that these energy companies can rip people off while
>> the wholesale prices they are paying have totally collapsed.
>>
>> Surely that’s exploitation?"

Isn't Claudia Webbe sitting as in independent after narrowly avoiding a recall petition following a criminal conviction?

I suspect she's gobbing off for an audience.
 Energy bills - Volume 4 - sooty123
>> That can presumably only work with futures, and could give rise to different prices. Nuclear
>> would perhaps offer the best price for a constant energy supply, gas for peak time
>> supply, and wind/solar for a less predictable one.
>>

Gas can sell in both markets, auctioned electricity capacity they can also sell in the spot market.
Latest Forum Posts