What with gas prices, I think the loft insulation needs sorting. With that in mind I'm thinking of using the isolation boards that are slotted between the joists.
We do have a lot of downlighters upstairs though. The loft is partially boarded at the moment and would need to remain so after any work.
As far as I can tell, with insulation boards you need half the thickness of the rolled insulation to get the same level of insulation.
Anyone fitted them, pros and cons over the insulation in rolls?
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 27 Aug 22 at 14:29
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Thanks Dog, that helps. I think I'll go with the roll mat type as the insulation board is pretty expensive per sqm compared to the glass type insulation.
I'll look at some loft legs to keep the boarding that's up there already as well.
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I learnt something from that site too sooty. There's not enough insulation in my loft, so add that to my l-o-n-g list of jobs :)
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I thought you were moving to a new build?
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Not exchanged yet, so anything can happen. It's all gorn quiet TBH, but from previous experience, that's what often happens, and then BANG! it all takes orf.
I've got the Maxibrite in, plus a load of hardwood logs. I'll do the loft if it comes to it, buy an air fryer, and a new heat pump tumble dryer to reduce my electricity cost.
That all costs money of course, but I see it as in investment, and with the way things are going it won't take long to pay for itself.
Central heating here is via a bulk LPG tank feeding a new (ish) Baxi boiler. I ass-umed LPG was going to be very expensive but, I've been pleasantly surprised.
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We had our loft insulation replaced a few years ago. It isn't all good, although it keeps the house warmer in winter we suffered like dogs during the heatwave because the heat couldn't escape during the night and it was like trying to sleep in an oven.
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>>we suffered like dogs during the heatwave because the heat couldn't escape during the night and it was like trying to sleep in an oven
I suppose we're fortunate living here as we have things called windows which open to let the cool air in at night.
:)
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open to
>> let the cool air in at night.
Cool air, whats that?
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>>we suffered like dogs during the heatwave because the heat couldn't escape during the night and it was like trying to sleep in an oven
I was pleasantly surprised to find the bungalow I've just bought to be much cooler than my old house. The bungalow has much more loft insulation than my old place that had 100mm with flooring on top. I assumed it was down to the extra insulation preventing the heat in the loft radiating down.
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>> if it comes to it, buy an air fryer, and a new heat pump tumble
>> dryer to reduce my electricity cost.
>>
Just a bit of random anecdata, Dog. Some random bloke just posted this elsewhere, about heat pump tumble dryers. I know nothing about them myself.
"We just binned a 500 quid heat pump after two years . Had the repair man round but he said the refrigerant part is prone to failure and is not repairable.
They took about 4 -5 hours to dry too. We switched to a vented dryer which cost 150 quid and takes 90 mins. I suspect at 7p a minute it will end up cheaper than heat pump all in."
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Thanks Cc. I specified a washer/dryer for our new build (if it comes orf) but I changed it to separate machines late last week after learning about heat pump tumble dryers.
I was going to pay for the tumble dryer myself, so I'll leave that for now and go for an energy efficient vented jobbie whether we move or nay.
Our olde Hotpoint Aquarius dryer is rated C on the old Richter scale = 3.34 kWh per cycle.
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>> Our olde Hotpoint Aquarius dryer is rated C on the old Richter scale = 3.34
>> kWh per cycle.
Including VAT that's all but £2 at October's price of 52p/kwh
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 28 Aug 22 at 14:53
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>>Including VAT that's all but £2 at October's price of 52p/kwh
The dryer was left here by the previous owner who said it needs replacing, that was 2 years ago
The tumble dryer obviously isn't used in the warmer months, plus there's a sou'west facing veranda and a conservatory, which doubles as a drying room :)
When we lived in Tenerife, we didn't have or need any heating or air conditioning like I often see in Spain on Escape to the Country.
I don't worry about money, but I do tend to overthink things. I don't like wasting money either ... unless it's on cars or cameras.
:o)
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NEW BUILD DOGGO!! Have you taken leave of your senses? Every ruddy new build I see is made of wet cheese and yoghurt. They are all very poorly constructed especially the timber framed flavour. The only exception 'may' be if it's a small developer with a local reputation to protect.
Good luck with that one....
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>>New build...
Doggo, didn't you mention a couple of years back (if that) that you had just moved in to a cottage near the Cornwall / Devon border?
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>>Doggo, didn't you mention a couple of years back (if that) that you had just moved in to a cottage near the Cornwall / Devon border?
Indeed, 2 miles outside Launceston. The property is too big for us really, plus there's a 1/3rd of an acre of garden planted with just about every shrub you can think of, plus blueberries, raspberries, strawberries, rhubarb, apples, damsons, figs plus a largish greenhouse.
Well, I don't want all that, I'd rather go out for a walk with the dog :)
Why did you buy it then? .. THAT is another story!
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>> NEW BUILD DOGGO!! Have you taken leave of your senses? Every ruddy new build I
>> see is made of wet cheese and yoghurt. They are all very poorly constructed especially
>> the timber framed flavour.
Having just built a timer-frame house I'm interested to know what the shortcomings are.
I can well believe developers save where they can, the best place to do that being where you can't see it.
I think our timber frame is OK, I was impressed with the erectors. We have had a bit of settlement in the frame and I have a couple of doors to adjust upstairs, but nothing dramatic. External cladding is all brick, or render on block. We did consider render on board or mesh which would probably have been fine but we thought the sound insulating effect of masonry would be better. It seems to have worked, we have a moderately trafficked road 14 metres from the front of the house and we hear very little from it. It did add some cost to do this not least because we had to put more structure in in a couple of places to support the cladding at first floor level.
One thing that does seem relatively weak is internal sound insulation, despite sound insulation in the internal stud walls and between downstairs ceiling joists. But the floors upstairs are engineered wood which probably accounts for it.
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Hi Manatee. I've never agreed with 600mm centres for timber work in anything and gun nailed stuff only makes matters worse. It's not building. It's no more than timber lego for untrained kids. Also internal walls constructed with metal studs with plasterboard screwed to them, again at 600 centres. Everything sounds so hollow and don't get me started on plasterboard that is just taped and jointed and not skimmed. Why doesn't anyone plaster any more?
Also the price of new builds seems extortionate to me.
Best................MD
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Thanks MD. I think we were lucky with the two men on the frame, they were certainly not kids. The frames were factory made and insulated and were dimensionally very good for that reason. I personally patched any damage to the insulation and the membrane that occurred after they had left.
We did use plaster skim on plasterboard, it just felt like a better job. My PM is a bit of a traditionalist too. With a timber frame the question of plastering on sand and cement render doesn't arise - do people still do that? Had we done a masonry structure I think I would have preferred plaster on render to dot and dab but it never came up.
My main concern was differential movement between timber frame and masonry cladding. The frame went up in December 20 and we got the roof felted and battened for Christmas. The fact that the brickies were late probably helped, we didn't get them until June/July and I think we'd probably had a meaningful amount of frame settlement by then with the weight of the roof on it.
For better or worse we've done it now, and I know it's better than most developer builds.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 29 Aug 22 at 20:10
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Tis indeed a small local builder, and they are not timber framed.
I might get Peter Ellicock to check it out [BA (hons) AssocRICS] I met him quite recently, he's had a full knee joint replacement and is doing okay, the scar is about as perfect as you can get.
Going orf the idea of the new build anyway, not because it's a new build but, I've bought and sold 10 properties over the years, and I often find out things which solicitors and surveyors miss.
One property that I nearly bought once had a septic tank into which a neighboring property - over the road! shared, quite common down 'ere apparently.
Any gaffs up your way for c£400k? .. I would go higher but the stamp duty kills that idea.
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Yes 400k should get you something very nice, but what actually do you have in mind?
I would be more than happy to cast an eye over something near me for you for the price of a Ploughmans and a pint.
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We're both on Rightmove every day, wifey in the morning and I check it out every evening.
Trouble is, we don't buy 'normal' properties. We only have one not too close neighbour here, same with the previous property, and the one 4 properties ago (we move around a bit!)
The new build has neighbs. I've checked them out already, they are in their 50s and will be newbies like us. Their the chicks have fled the nest.
The 'good stuff' can come under offer on the same day as it appears on Rightmove.
Many properties are way overpriced ... at the moment!
Plan B is to rent somewhere and wait for the crash.
Our buyers sent us (via our agent) the results of the survey. Why would they do that I wondered?
Well, the home buyer's report ran to 93 pages - er indoors managed to read through 60 pages,
but I didn't read one. This property is 90 years old, and sure it requires a few things doing, but nothing major.
I reckon they are gonna get near to completion - then go for the jugular £££!
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Don't the big energy companies still have incentives for supplying folks with extra insulation? We had an "energy survey" and our loft insulation topped up for free years ago by British Gas even though they weren't our supplier.
Might be worth checking if they're still doing it.
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I think those grants stopped a few years ago.
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Although we're 'supposed' to be moving, I have applied for a grant to insulate my property.
Chap I spoke to talked about insulating the loft, internal and external walls plus underfloor insulation (1930s property)
He also mentioned a 'green' LPG similar to biodiesel, plus of course heat pumps.
I'll go along with it out of curiosity (no obligation) just to see what's on offer.
grants4homeimprovements.co.uk/
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I thought that all the grants had stopped, I'm not sure how it would work with boarding in the loft needed.
I suppose there's no harm in asking.
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Had a orod about this morning. The only grants I can see, and there are a few, all need you to be on some sort of benefit. No good to us.
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>> Had a orod about this morning. The only grants I can see, and there are
>> a few, all need you to be on some sort of benefit. No good to
>> us.
Article on Guardian Money about DIY includes info on grants. A Crankcase says the National Scheme is limited to those on income related benefits such as Universal Credit or Pension Credit:
www.simpleenergyadvice.org.uk/grant-eligibility/questionnaire
There may though be local help.
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With current rate of fuel increase price we will all be on benefits before long!
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>>Although we're 'supposed' to be moving, I have applied for a grant to insulate my property.
Well, I have today received approval for my home improvement grant and my application is for fully funded UNDERFLOOR + CAVITY + RIR + SOLAR + possible ASHP.
I intend to go along with it as there is no obligation. We are both 70 years young and neither of us are in receipt of any kind of benefits.
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>>
>>
>> Well, I have today received approval for my home improvement grant and my application is
>> for fully funded UNDERFLOOR + CAVITY + RIR + SOLAR + possible ASHP.
>>
>> I intend to go along with it as there is no obligation. We are both
>> 70 years young and neither of us are in receipt of any kind of benefits.
>>
>>
>>
Nice one, Dog.
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>> Well, I have today received approval for my home improvement grant and my application is
>> for fully funded UNDERFLOOR + CAVITY + RIR + SOLAR + possible ASHP.
Sounds too good to be true, K9, so hope it works out for you. Keep us informed of progress.
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>>Nice one, Dog.
>>Sounds too good to be true, K9
My thoughts exactly. I now have to fill in a 'winter wellbeing application':
1Our services are helping residents of Cornwall with staying warm and improving their overall health and progress to work.
Cornwall has too many homes in fuel poverty (around 13%) and we wish to reduce this fuel poverty by 2030 (or sooner) to 5%.
This service is offered if you or a member of your household are in poor health ,at risk of ill health or with underlying health issues.
You may also apply if you are caring for a vulnerable person or worried about your home being cold or damp. Funding is generally for new customers only, to help with the cost of staying warm (funds are limited).
Neither of us 'are in poor health ,at risk of ill health or with underlying health issues or worry about our home being cold or damp'.
It is an old poorly insulated property. I do have HBP but don't take any meds for it, and my fingers turn purple in the cold weather - poor circulation most likely.
So I'll fill in their form and see where we go from there (watch this space)
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Will you need to be careful about sealing in the radon?
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Good point .. The previous owner of this property had a radon test carried out, and it was found to be under the level where action would be required.
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For years I’ve used the cheapest rolls of rock wool. Must have topped up my 1999 build three times.
I boarded out a 6’ wide full length area under the ridge line and jammed rock wool underneath the boards before so doing. Into the eaves both sides of the boarded area the rockwool is about 24” deep and I lay large flattened cardboard boxes on top.
It’s like an oven in summer
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I am tempted to get under my house insulated. There is probably a 3 foot gap between the concrete founds and the downstairs joists. Could hang some seriously thick insulation between the joists. Do you lose much heat down the east or does it all rise? Though with lammy flooring I guess it gives an overall cold base to the downstairs.
About 20 years ago I crawled underneath to move all the wiring for my surround sound 5.1 system (remember them??)
However:
Two years ago we had rats and although they are long gone and exterminated, I’m not sure if I am willing to go scrabbling about underneath!!
And my loft is fully floored with the thinnest cheapest insulation underneath it.
I really could do with getting both areas insulated for the longer term. But no doubt would cost a fortune and a lot of hassle, especially for the loft as I would need to empty the lot etc etc.
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Far more heat is lost through the loft than the floor - so despite the hassle of clearing out the loft this is where I would start.
In my experience, putting stuff into the loft on the basis "it might come in useful" etc is a pointless waste of energy. In our first house we put "stuff" up there - when we moved 10 years later we bought it all down. 90%+ went straight to the tip. Current loft is completely clear.
There should be a flow of air under a suspended wooden floor to avoid damp and rot. Trying to fix insulation to the underside may compromise this.
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The loft is absolutely the priority for insulation. Payback will probably less than a year.
If stuff is in the loft you don’t need it Get rid!
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Didn't need loft insulation in Los Cristianos, or double gazing. The boiler was only used for hot water.
Just saying :)
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Booked a month in La Palma in February Dog. If it gets chilly at night there’s a volcano nearby.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 30 Aug 22 at 09:03
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Good man CG - you'll come back feeling like a new man :)
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I see many roofs in southern Europe with a single solar panel and a cylindrical tank for hot water. I don't get why not everyone has them, as it must be really effective where there is lots of hot sun!(Apart from maybe cost, of course)
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Until only a couple of years ago in Spain the regulations made domestic PV (and possibly other "green" systems) uneconomic.
I think this may have been on the basis that they electricity generators would still have to maintain generating capacity for the (fairly rare) days when the sun doesn't shine.
Note that temperatures, even on the Costa del Sol, can fall to 13 during the day and 5 at night during the winter.
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In most of Scandinavia , I understand they insulate into the roof , rather than on the floor . I assume if they take it to the roof it prevents cold air coming in and mixing with the warm air rising and that prevents moisture .
I see on most new building sites these KINGSPAN silver backed blocks , ready to insulate the side walls ,and or lofts , I assume they are cut into the eves of the roof and the reflective backing , ensures the heat gets rebounded back into the house .
If you go onto the GOV.UK EPC web site , they actually suggest 270mm of rock wall fibreglass is recommended . Great when you have 4x2’ss in the loft , so you put 4 “ in and can board out to store your stuff you don’t really need , or put in 11” , but it’s a pretty nasty job to put that in ,esp in the edges area, , you can’t do both
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>>you can't do both
Yes you can, there are bits of kit available to raise the flooring above the insulation.
I had 100mm with t&g sheets on top in my old house. I could never find out if the flooring improved or worsened the efficiency.
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Basic physics - warm air rises.
In a room with no air movement of ventilation the ceiling is between 2 and 8C higher than floor level depending on external temperature.
With air movement due to fans, human activity or ventilation the differences are rather less.
For those with a loft, insulation is relatively cheap and easy to install. Adding insulation to floors, windows and walls is usually disruptive, sometimes complex and expensive.
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Our timber frames are insulated with Kingspan. The loft is rockwool type stuff in the undecked areas, there is one different stuff designed to give a similar result in terms of heat loss under the decked areas.
We have used attic trusses in the main roof to give us a clear usable area for storage. But we stayed with insulating over the ceilings, rather than just under the roof, so we have a "cold roof". To insulate under the roof costs more, and would have to be done if the loft were to be converted.
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Can you over insulate a hot water tank? Mine has a foam coating on it, worth putting an insulation jacket over the top of that ?
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I don't think you can over insulate a hot water cylinder, but doubt it will be cost effective.
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>> Can you over insulate a hot water tank? Mine has a foam coating on it,
>> worth putting an insulation jacket over the top of that ?
Mine is similar and has been there since the house was built c1998. Feels very slightly warm to the touch but I doubt a glass fibre jacket, the sort of thing we had at the previous house, would add any value.
Pipe insulation on the other hand....
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I recently asked my heating engineer about adding additional insulation to my hot water tank, and he said not to bother.
Last edited by: Clk Sec on Tue 4 Oct 22 at 15:27
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>> I recently asked my heating engineer about adding additional insulation to my hot water tank,
>> and he said not to bother.
I wouldn't listen to any heating operative. One tried to tell me it's cheaper to leave the heating on low all the time rather than let it switch off overnight. That myth was debunked years ago.
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>> I wouldn't listen to any heating operative. One tried to tell me it's cheaper to
>> leave the heating on low all the time rather than let it switch off overnight.
Guy who serviced my boiler told me that turning its variable output down would save me money even though it might run longer.
He'd forgotten that the energy required to heat 1kg of water by 1 degree is a scientific constant....
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Pipe insulation on the other hand....
>>
I had a look at this as well, there's the grey foam tubes or a bubble wrap type that comes on a roll like tape that you apply.
I'm not sure there's much advantage of one over the other.
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>>or a bubble wrap type that comes on a roll like tape
I find bubble wrap useful to use around joints, and other areas where foam tubes are difficult to fit.
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I find that narrow sacking material on a roll good for bends and awkward shapes.
Toolstation link shortened:
tinyurl.com/2p9xx75d
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>> I find that narrow sacking material on a roll good for bends and awkward shapes.
>>
>> tinyurl.com/2p9xx75d
>>
Beware of that stuff!!. I removed all of it from my loft after I had a big fright from it.
I was doing a little plumbing in the loft and using a small blow torch.
Suddenly flames were running along the **** stuff. The ignition was caused by the small hairs first catching light.
Where to start extinguishing the small flames when unable to quickly follow the flames without rushing and putting a hole in the ceiling.
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>> I find bubble wrap useful to use around joints, and other areas where foam tubes
>> are difficult to fit.
Well, by using gaffer tape, bubble wrap certainly aids my buoyancy during pre breakfast swims, and my joints definitely feel the benefit
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Rockwool pipe insulation with the aluminium outer layer is good if there is room.
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My HW cylinder has a foam jacket but I wrapped it with insulation a couple of months ago (it was cheap because the packaging was torn).
The tank temp next to the stat, 1/3rd of the way up, appears to be about 2deg higher than previously first thing in the morning. I say appears because although I record the tank temp (with a DS18b20) I don't record the ambient temp in the cupboard so I can't compare exactly like for like.
Taking 2deg as a valid reduction in heat loss and fag packet maths:
(120L x top 2/3 of tank) = 80L = 80Kg
Specific Heat Cap of water is 4200j/Kg/degC so energy saved is 4200 x 80 x 2 = 672000 joules.
1 watt = 1joule/sec so converting to kWh 672000/(1000 x 3600) = 0.19kWh
Assuming 100% efficiency and ~34p/kWh electric = 6.46p, ~10p/kWh gas = 1.9p
Payback for me is £10 / 1.9p = 526 days
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Insulation - Dog
