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news.sky.com/story/energy-bills-forecast-to-rise-even-higher-than-previously-thought-12668906
Looks like bills are going to be even higher than thought.
650369
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 24 Aug 22 at 11:21
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Just increased my Direct Debit to £350. Hopefully will end up 2023 in credit.
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I'm not increasing my DD on the basis that it's better in my account as opposed to theirs.
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>> I'm not increasing my DD on the basis that it's better in my account as
>> opposed to theirs.
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Not necessarily true My company OVO pay 3% on credit balance
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It's staggering.
The French government owns nearly all their generating capacity. They are capping rises at 4% AFAIK. And as it's mainly nuclear, they won't have to absorb all the oil and gas cost increases.
A few years ago our energy use was around 26,000kWh p.a. (mostly gas). Our bills were maybe £2k. Now we need about 7,500kWh, and we could be paying £5,000 a year before long (all electric).
There will be many many households in trouble. The country is in trouble.
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Not sure what the answer is but there is something fundamentally wrong with calls for the Govt to bail everyone out.
In other words to pass taxpayers money to the energy companies who are making massive profits. These profits need to be reduced or taxed to the hilt.
What would have been the outcome if Ofgem refused to increase the caps and said to the energy companies, thats all your getting? Who controls Ofgem and what is their role?
Sometimes the capitalist system really does have downfalls - free market place, all these new companies for competition but they were all allowed to go bust with massive debts that the consumers are now paying for?
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>>Our bills were maybe £2k. Now we need about 7,500kWh, and we could be paying £5,000 a year before long (all electric
This (among other things) has made me think. I've made an offer on a new build which is all electric + air source heat pump.
What with that and the ferret's parking thread, I'm having second thoughts as we don't have any neigh bores where we are now.
On the plus side, the property is on Bodmin Moor with access to some mighty-fine walks, and the Jamaica Inn is just 2 minutes walk away.
Going to meet the agent this morning to choose the carpets but, I'm still looking on Rightmove every day :)
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EDF were told to cap France Electricity price back in February - Macron was standing for President.
He authorised 2Bn Euros to be paid a compensation.
EDF now going to court for 8Bn Euros
www.share-talk.com/edf-sues-french-government-for-e8-4bn/#gs.8r88bp
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EDF is 85% owned by the French government.
Presumably they are allowed to charge something related to market price, although their increase in cost for nuclear should be not a lot. The issue here seems to be the electricity that they have been obliged to sell to their competitors at below market price.
Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 10 Aug 22 at 09:49
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There are numerous ways in which the costs of energy for consumers can be reduced in the current crisis. If EDF are (largely) government owned, they can be mandated to simply limit price increases and absorb any losses made through general taxation or increasing the deficit.
The Rishi approach is more complex and (may) ultimately include council tax rebates, reducing VAT on energy, reducing climate levy, increasing NI threshold (note offsetting rate increase), uprating pensions and universal credit inflationary increases etc.
The difference is which consumers get the benefit - targeted at all energy users or only the most needy. Which is best or fairest is a matter of opinion. Need to note that all help ultimately needs to be paid for (at some point), and that if high prices continue long term, they will simply become the "new norm" and something else will need to "give".
Last edited by: Terry on Wed 10 Aug 22 at 11:15
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>> If EDF are (largely) government owned, they can be mandated to
>> simply limit price increases and absorb any losses made through general taxation or increasing the
>> deficit.
Approx 75% of France's generating capacity is nuclear. With significant wind and solar relatively little is from fossil fuels.
UK's problem is the 'dash for gas' to replace coal. All dandy while we had lots of it in our own sectors of the North Sea. The risk of disruption to supplies once we were dependant on world markets was well known but ignored or treated as containable.
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>> UK's problem is the 'dash for gas' to replace coal. All dandy while we had
>> lots of it in our own sectors of the North Sea. The risk of disruption
>> to supplies once we were dependant on world markets was well known but ignored or
>> treated as containable.
We are not dependent to others for gas supply, merely on the market price. So you tell the north sea gas producers that you supply the UK market at max XXX price or will we nationalise you again.
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>> or will we nationalise you again.
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I am under the impression (probably wrong) that the gas is the Crown's anyway and the Govt only sell licences to companies so that they can extract and sell it.
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UK annual natural gas consumption is ~79m cubic meters a year. France is ~ 45m.
So they have less reliance than the UK on gas but are not immune from impacts.
Also worth noting that UK gas production was ~41m cu m. France produced almost nothing.
Conclusions:
- France has a greater reliance of gas imports than the UK,
- is less likely to suffer domestic power cuts due to nuclear,
- may find industrial users bear the brunt of the economic and production impacts
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>>All dandy while we had lots of it in our own sectors of the North Sea.
Are/were "we" actually the beneficial owners? I assumed it was Shell/BP/Conoco or whoever. The North Sea is still producing a fair proportion of our gas AFAIK.
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Anybody else getting irritated by Martin Lewis. He seems to have promoted himself from a self proclaimed expert on saving money on your bills ( the answer was always “shop around” ) to some sort of economic guru proclaiming the end of the world as we know it.
Irritating man.
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The irony is he makes a fortune out of it.
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>> The irony is he makes a fortune out of it.
To be fair he's also made some very significant donations, including to Citizens Advice.
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>> The irony is he makes a fortune out of it.
>>
There’s a lot of money in stating the bleeding obvious it seems
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>> The irony is he makes a fortune out of it.
Made a fortune from it. He sold money saving expert some time ago.
Considering his good works (donating a sizable amount to charity) and doing a lot to clear up some of the confusion re over student loans, I can forgive his occasional rants as he seems to believe that he is speaking for the benefit of others (after all, I don't expect that the energy price rises are not going to impact him too much).
His charitable contributions...
blog.moneysavingexpert.com/2022/04/martin-lewis-charity-fund-2022-update/#:~:text=The%20'Martin%20Lewis%20Coronavirus%20Poverty,fundraising%20scheme%20was%20in%20place).
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>> There’s a lot of money in stating the bleeding obvious it seems
The shop around bit seems blindingly obvious.
In my work people present with benefit issues and the main advice given is around what they might claim. As well though we are taught to check outgoings.
Lost track of the number of times in the past where people turned out still to be on legacy Standard Variable Rate tariffs as they'd never moved on from the Gas Board/Electricity Board. Many were unaware of the possibility for savings and I had a bit of patter about asking the Meerkat or the bloke with the funny moustache.
Unbelievably, there were plenty who were 'happy with their current supplier'....
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>> Unbelievably, there were plenty who were 'happy with their current supplier'....
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Mother in law is like this with BT as now deceased father in law used to work for them. She won't change despite being totally ripped off by them.
A switch to TalkTalk would save her a small fortune, be on the same network and include internet for a decent saving. She currently doesn't have broadband or any internet service and a TalkTalk add on would include calls to her brother in Australia.
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"Lost track of the number of times in the past where people turned out still to be on legacy Standard Variable Rate tariffs "
Rather ironic that most consumers are of course now back on those very same standard variable tariffs. Perhapst they new something after all :-)
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 10 Aug 22 at 15:07
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>> Anybody else getting irritated by Martin Lewis. He seems to have promoted himself from a
>> self proclaimed expert on saving money on your bills ( the answer was always “shop
>> around” ) to some sort of economic guru proclaiming the end of the world as
>> we know it.
I heard him on Today this morning explaining why the Sunak/Government line of 'we can do nothing until the cap increases in October' is arrant nonsense. Direct Debits are likely to increase as soon as the new cap is announced later this month.
Even at current levels, average bills are close to the Standard Allowance a person on Universal Credit has for the entirety of their living costs. At £4k+ it will be considerably more. A spokesman for Iceland (the shop not the country) made the same point.
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>> Anybody else getting irritated by Martin Lewis. He seems to have promoted himself from a
>> self proclaimed expert on saving money on your bills ( the answer was always “shop
>> around” ) to some sort of economic guru proclaiming the end of the world as
>> we know it.
>>
>> Irritating man.
I suspect he's just OCD (incorrect usage I know). I quite like him, he's spilled the beans on a lot of sharp practice.
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Electricity prices....I’ve a good few friends who live permanently in Spain. Have done for years. No ‘town’ gas, it’s all the more expensive bottled stuff, and some of them are electric only.
If we think it’s bad here, we should be grateful we’re not running air con, or turning it off and leaving fans running day and night. Im still amazed at the lack of solar panels in most properties.
Glad I only rent when I visit for extended periods during the winter months....don’t need air con then, and rarely have the heating on.
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I can see that Martin Lewis will irritate some. However he has done a good job in recent years in explaining and advising on consumer issues that none of the previous popular pundits could match with the possible exception of Paul Lewis (Radio 4 Moneybox).
Most consumer broadcasters in the past were journalists or “personalities” reading a script with little apparent understanding of the real issues.
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Martin Lewis has done a lot of good over the years in providing sound advice and exposing bad practice. But assuming he has a platform to lecture government on what and when to do it is egotistical arrogance.
The media are doing a great job in turning a drama into a crisis - will a large part of the country even survive the winter. Creating panic and despair is completely unhelpful.
There seems no doubt that poorer families will have a problem and will need support. Based on what happened during the pandemic one would expect some support to be forthcoming.
For those on middling incomes there may be some help (as already evidenced) but they will have to make some compromises in personal priorities.
The well off and wealthy will find increased energy costs an annoyance but hardly threatening.
If the energy price spike is short duration , normality may resume in a year. For a permanent shift in relative costs there is no choice but to change behaviours and priorities. Just get used to it!
Last edited by: Terry on Wed 10 Aug 22 at 14:38
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>>But assuming he has a platform to lecture government on what and when to do it is egotistical arrogance.
It's not a question of assumption. He either has a platform or he hasn't. He clearly has, and if his opinion is reported then you'll have to blame the media.
I'd say his contribution is generally positive for consumers, and if he is a thorn in the side of less competent politicians then good.
Those prices of Zippy's are a shocker. Until the wave of bankruptcies amongst suppliers I was paying 2.6p per kWh for gas, so that's 900% increase. I can't believe I haven't mislaid a decimal point somewhere.
Elec @ 72p means a heat pump is probably going to be cheaper less extortionate to run than gas CH (FAO Dog).
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>>Elec @ 72p means a heat pump is probably going to be cheaper less extortionate to run than gas CH (FAO Dog)
Ah, I've only just seen this. Ta!
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>> Martin Lewis has done a lot of good over the years in providing sound advice
>> and exposing bad practice. But assuming he has a platform to lecture government on what
>> and when to do it is egotistical arrogance.
In what sense does speaking out on a subject of which you have intimate knowledge (household budgets, spending etc) become lecturing and egotistical arrogance?
There are a lot more people than 'poorer families' - what is your metric for poorer?- who are being blown off course by this. People on median and above incomes who had everything budgeted for, even if that included stuff on credit, are going to struggle to find sums approaching £400/month for fuel. Their compromises might well include defaulting on credit with significant collateral damage to finance.
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He did, in the first place, get lucky/have foresight/whatever by making a consumerist website which attracted a large following before anything else similar came along, then sold it for a decent sum.
Along the way he has clearly become somewhat knowledgeable on his topics and also developed a public persona which put him where he is today. I don't think he pretends to be an expert economist or forecaster, and thus speaks in a language ordinary people understand.
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>> People on median and above incomes
>> who had everything budgeted for, even if that included stuff on credit, are going to
>> struggle to find sums approaching £400/month for fuel. Their compromises might well include defaulting on
>> credit with significant collateral damage to finance.
Too damn right. Median household income net is about 32,000. Ours is a bit over that and we will need to retrench to stay within income despite having no rent or mortgage. Short term it will hit savings (at least we have some), then we will simply have to economise more - probably lose a car and not eat out much. Definitely no Starbucks! Next year and after will be tighter as I lose some income I currently get from a trustee job, and none of my pensions will track inflation beyond 5%.
We'll get by, but there will be millions for whom it is a very bleak outlook. They've already started blaming the poorer folk for asking for pay rises in line with inflation. You can bet that PLC board pay will rise faster.
Pity those on 2% rises.
A friend of mine who earned about £100k in the private sector has retrained as a maths teacher. She'll be a very good one. Despite an Oxford maths degree she is on the lowest new teacher pay of £27,000 odd. She is a lone parent with 2 children (elder at university). Fortunately I think she has some wool on her back but I doubt if her income will cover her expenses.
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I would suggest that anyone who is able to criticise Martin Lewis for his stance on helping those on the breadline really must be so removed from the reality of the situation these people find them in.
Or deliberately ignorant.
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One of Martin's predictions is widespread civil unrest which I can see happening. The 50% of the population below the median income (And many of those above) are already stretched to the limit and the ensuing backlash will reach at least at Poll Tax levels. There is also likely to be widespread refusal to pay, should the government ignore those people and leave them without power there will be riots and they will not win another election for many decades to come.
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"There is also likely to be widespread refusal to pay, should the government ignore those people and leave them without power"
If you refuse to pay your energy bill the energy company will not leave you without power. They will install a meter and institute recovery proceedings for the the balance owing.
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>> There is also likely to be widespread refusal to pay, should the government ignore those
>> people and leave them without power there will be riots and they will not win
>> another election for many decades to come.
There will not be widespread riots, nor refusal to pay. However the Tories will not get power for a considerable number of years because, while there are major issues around, Boris has more or less said "sod off nothing to do with me- sulk" the two incumbents are too busy kicking each other to show any interest in whats happening, and all in all the Tory party has "UNFIT TO GOVERN" stamped all over them.
Its unforgivable and the population wont.
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It is easy to lose sight of support already provided:
- £400 discount to each domestic connection to help with bills from October
- £200 discount on energy bills (but repayable)
- £150 council tax rebate on A-D properties
- £360 (max) from a reduction in NI threshold (offset for higher earners by increased rate)
- £650 one off payable to those on on UC and low income pensioners
The approach is a bit "scattergun" rather than coherent - possibly as the problem has evolved rapidly. I hope this is a reasonable summary - the different rules applied to each element are confusing. I accept it may not be sufficient as the situation evolves.
IMHO the media would be far more constructive in ensuring (a) that everyone entitled to support is aware of how to get it, and (b) provide much more advice on how to save energy.
Simply complaining bitterly that millions will be reduced to fuel poverty unable to have a hot meal or shower is pointless. It feeds despair and depression - not help solve it.
Constructive commentary to minimise impacts would be infinitely better - eg: switch off appliances consuming power not in use, wear warmer clothing, cheap/nutritious meals, turn down heating 2 deg etc. Long johns and a thick duvet are cheaper than a weeks gas bill!
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Terry, the best people to manage finances are those living week to week, getting in one hand and paying out the other. And nothing left in between.
They do not need others trying to preach about how to best manage their money. They make those decisions daily. What you are saying there is very patronising.
And ML constantly stresses all the rules etc about claiming benefits. He is probably the most trusted and knowledgeable person on these issues.
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>> the best people to manage finances are those living week to week, getting in
>> one hand and paying out the other. And nothing left in between.
>> They do not need others trying to preach about how to best manage their money.
I'm sure that's generally right, although there will be some more people falling into that category
>>
>> And ML constantly stresses all the rules etc about claiming benefits. He is probably the
>> most trusted and knowledgeable person on these issues.
Well put. Nor does he strike me as someone doing it for attention.
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"Long johns"
In deed. The coldest I ever walked to work was about 2 miles in -31 degrees. My jeans were like frozen solid cardboard but my wife's tights kept me toasty warm.
When I got to the studio I announced 'I'm wearing my wife's tights' and a handful of guys replied 'so am I'.
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Ladies tights were standard wear for lots of motorcyclists in Winter.
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Played golf in the Pentland Hills wearing long-sleeved T-shirt and trousers when it was -5ºC
Had a set of thermals underneath which kept me toastie.
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>> When I got to the studio I announced 'I'm wearing my wife's tights' and a
>> handful of guys replied 'so am I'.
>>
...that was rather generous of your wife....
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I suppose most of us grew up in non centrally heated houses with perhaps only one room heated by an open fire in winter and we all survived. In some ways I guess we have all become a bit soft. There's a lot to be said for the advice to wear warmer clothing and turn the the heating down a notch or two.
Obviously the elderly and frail need more heat but I guess for many perfectly fit people walking around indoors in a T shirt in winter has become the norm however cold it is outside
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 10 Aug 22 at 21:27
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> but I guess for many perfectly fit people walking around indoors in a T shirt in winter has become the norm however cold it is outside
Is it?
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 11 Aug 22 at 11:09
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Is it?
Certainly is with a lot of younger people I know. Indeed if I were to visit of my friends in the winter I doubt that many many would be wearing heavy jumpers or sweaters. They have grown up in a centrally heated world where its perpetually 22C at home and in the office and after all when energy is cheap why not?
If you are on decent salary paying a hundred pounds or so a month for your energy bill was fairly neglible in the scheme of things. A decent meal out per month equivalent say.
The massive hike in price of course might change peoples ways. Thats how economics works and why interfering with the process with across the board subsidies is probably not a good idea.
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>> The massive hike in price of course might change peoples ways. Thats how economics works
>> and why interfering with the process with across the board subsidies is probably not a
>> good idea.
We do of course have new issues to deal with - summer Heat. With temps promised to hit mid 30s to low 40s regularly in the summer, we might all be pondering aircon. As expensive to run as Heating in winter....
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>> With temps promised to hit mid 30s to low 40s regularly in the summer, we might all be pondering aircon
When we visited the south-east facing new build yesterday at 11:00am, it was hot and stuffy inside.
Good to get back to our cool sou'west facing home with smaller windows!
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I doubt that many many would be wearing
>> heavy jumpers or sweaters. T
Is that something you'd go back to, knock the central heating on the head for a bit?
I wonder if winter clothing sales might rise this year.
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>> Is it?
Yeah, in my experience it is. I dont expect to wear anything warmer than a shirt in my home or anyone I visit in winter.
As a child I was brought up with waking up to ice on the insides of the windows.
This winter, if prices go berserk, I might be tempted to allow the internal tempt to drop to 18c
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>As a child I was brought up with waking up to ice on the insides of the windows.
Windows eh? You were lucky!
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>> >As a child I was brought up with waking up to ice on the insides of the windows.
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No surprise as my first floor bedroom had no loft insulation and below the floor was open to the outside temperature. The only external chance of heat was through one wall.
Of course no duvet just blanket and a quilt.
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I think it's perfectly possible to offer criticism of the government and give practical advice. It's not either or.
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Just got a new quote for a fixed rate tariff from the Co-op...
Just shy of £9,000 a year with electricity at 72.95 pence per kilowatt hour and gas at 27.2 pence per kilowatt hour.
I won't be switching, but who knows, I might regret this decision this time next year!
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>..Just shy of £9,000 a year..
Around a couple of weeks ago a Euro MP said that consumer energy prices should be kept at current levels even when/if market prices return to their pre-invasion levels. Joe Public will be used to it by then so it won't be such a big deal.
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Nine thousand pines a year is an awful lot. The average bill is predicted to rise as high as 4,200. Is Chateau Zippy particularly extensive or don’t you have any windows?
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You've been having elocution lessons, CGN.
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...I thought his response was a bit wooden, actually...
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>...I thought his response was a bit wooden, actually...
This ere's a dead parrot!
No it's not... It's just...
Yahoo! It's Monty Python day today!
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Perhaps he's getting needled, or are we barking up the wrong tree?
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>> Perhaps he's getting needled,
If he is he's a bit of a sap.
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This thread wold be a lot more informative and educational if posters actually indicated their annual usage and history where available) in kWh and the split gas/elect. Similarly if government figures indicated typical usage.
I am away so can only give an indication - but better than nothing!
Annual Gas 2021 26000
Annual Elect 2021 04000
I think i am am investing in survival blankets when Dec comes and current fix ends.
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We've always had the plumbing and wotnot for a fireplace to heat the whole house but never bothered buying one. We've got a Ukrainian handyman doing a bit of refurb now for a couple of weeks and we thought we might as well now. Just in case. Just to be safe.
Some official guy came last week who has to approve this 'plumbing' - vents and piping and chimberly. So we'll have a log burner in a few days and I'm well chuffed. I can start burning all the tat that wifey has acquired over the last few years.
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I think I'm already close to about as efficient as I can be, bar one or two small physical changes I ought to do (e.g. install a winter curtain across a large opening to a fairly cold and little-used area).
2021 usage figures
Elec - 4810. Just about as good as it will get I expect, loads of stuff controlled by smart switches so very little on standby. However we did change the freezer this year and that will save a rather large chunk (c500 IIRC). I've yet to measure the old garage fridge freezer.
Gas 11893. I've got away with being spectacularly mean in heating the house over the winter but as we get older and colder I'm not sure how sustainable that will turn out to be. Also put in a thing earlier in the year which diverts excess solar power into the immersion heater but only small/no savings there through autumn/winter.
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>>Chateau Zippy...
3 bed detached "villa" (upside-down split level bungalow).
Last edited by: zippy on Thu 11 Aug 22 at 10:20
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I was an early adopter of Scandinavian wood burners over 40 years ago. They were great heaters then and even better now with design updates. I have long since moved houses so I am stuck with gas.
My son bought a log burner last year. His wood supplier is very apologetic that his prices have gone up this year………..a whopping 10%. Mind you he is a traditional woodman with his own managed patch of woodland so he probably just nudges prices along at general inflation. I expect more commercial suppliers are increasing prices more.
The concern I have is that people will be driven to burn all sorts of tat and not have stoves installed safely (not BBD of course). I can imagine a smoky winter with a few carbon monoxide incidents among the Darwin Award crowd.
That aside a good stove will be a boon this winter.
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We've always had a lot of cold callers (or bell ringers) over winter trying to sell wood as they cruise down the street in their vans. Unsavoury type, a nuisance then, now probably useful. The problem is storing it. Some neighbours have log storage over the whole side of the house up to eye level but not particularly secure. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm buying wood that's been nicked from the next street. They're not just selling, they're probably casing the joint, too.
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I wonder how much much cheaper it is to heat a house/room with wood than Gas, do you actually save any money, assuming you have to pay for the wood?
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Almost relevant - we don't have gas, we have oil. I was looking at a seller of firewood locally. On their website it compares the heat output of their firewood to oil.
I now know that, at today's price, to replace £200 worth of oil with kiln dried oak logs, it will cost me...£200.
Well hurrah. Logs are nicer, but more faff. Undecided.
In either case, neither oil nor logs attract a daily standing charge of course, and I can buy both at summer prices, so that's a plus. Probably.
Electricity - we sit at about 5000 units a year, perhaps a smidge less. Current tariff, until end of next April, is 18.5p a unit, 24.5p a day standing. Gonna be "interesting" next May, but sufficient unto the day, etc.
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'I wonder how much much cheaper it is to heat a house/room with wood than Gas'
I wonder that too. But I kind of see the log burner of a backup more than anything should Putin deicide to cut the gas to Poland. We won't freeze.
When it goes subzero I'll have to keep the gas on. The water meter is in the garage and I can't let it freeze. Or if the log burner does turn out to be an absolute belter and wood turns out to be cheap, perhaps the gas can stay off and a tiny heater next to the water pipes.
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Wood burners are an attractive emotional proposition they look good, can seem like you are contributing to a greener, better world, and may even save money.
The reality is probably rather different for most:
Modern wood burners properly installed and used may create little harmful pollution. Older burners or use of wet wood are heavy polluters. As the rules changed only a year ago most sit in the latter group.
Wood burners are great if you have ready access to wood, and preferably own a chain saw. Otherwise supply is limited and trees take years to grow. If more wood burners are installed the price of logs will increase (simple supply and demand) and erode a any cost savings.
Unlike gas and electric - set a control unit or press a button, wood burners need maintenance and cleaning - an enjoyable pastime for some?
Would I like one - yes. But it would be for show and possible back up - my main heat source would be gas or electric.
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Woodburners - i agree with your comment re a lot of faff! Although I always say that I get warmer cutting , storing, and then fetching the logs. than I do burning them.
Maybe I should take up doing the prep work in doors in the winter.
I have just discovered the one and only benefit of Brexit, We have had to reduce the number of holiday home visits in the winter - so less faff!
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>> >>Chateau Zippy...
>>
>> 3 bed detached "villa" (upside-down split level bungalow).
>>
You got heaters for a lemon and lime plantation inside it? ;-)
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That’s £5,000 then I’m bid to stay warm this winter. Do I hear £6,000 anywhere?
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Sitting at around 4800 kWh Electric and 24000 kWh gas, which is about £3,300 at the moment. Indicative rise is 60-70% in Oct taking it to £5280 - £5660, only needs another 6-13% in Jan to be at £6k, I think we'll be there. Ouch.
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Im running annually at 4673 kWh Elec (28.1 / kwh) & 16817 kWh Gas (6.97 / kwh) so £2485pa
So expect £4k pa based on October prices who knows come 2023 but I suspect I wont outbid the £6k
Currently £400 quid in credit. On variable rate, mostly because I fell off a fix when the SHTF and its impossible (more or less) to get another fix.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 11 Aug 22 at 16:22
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At least my leccy is fixed at 36.x till end June 23 (but 4 overnight hours at 7.5p, when as much heavy duty stuff gets done) but my gas at 7.48 is a flexible tariff so I suppose could (will!!) rise at some point.
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I keep meaning to get a 12 monthly statement to work out annual use, but octopus energy don't seem to do one.
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Guess you aren't on a smart meter then
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I believe all the suppliers are obliged to send you an annual usage statement, either on paper or electronically.
Certainly though a smart meter comes into its own at the moment for monitoring usage.
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There's no need to have a smart meter installed to monitor your leccy usage. The setup I use gives me Voltage, Current, Frequency, Power Factor, Instantaneous and accumulated Power at a sample rate of up to around 30 samples per minute. The readings are sent via WiFi to a little RasPi for recording, graphing, cost calculation, whatever.
It uses a gizmo called a PZEM (about £10) connected to a WiFi microcontroller.
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I haven’t a clue what that all means. Smart meter supplied free and OVO’s excellent App does it for me.
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is the OVO App a substitute In-home Display or can you ask the App to tell you how much power you were using at 3.17am last Saturday?
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Smart meters only tell you what power was being used in total. To change the outcome you need to know which appliances and activities are draining energy.
Smart meters tell you nothing about gas usage as any consumption is indirectly linked to activity - eg: central heating demand for gas is modified by external and internal temperature, thermostat settings, timer etc.
I remain convinced they were intended as a way to implement variable charging depending on overall demand, not better inform the public about usage which was already evident from a quarterly bill.
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>>
>> I remain convinced they were intended as a way to implement variable charging depending on
>> overall demand,
I would certainly hope so. It makes total sense to shift some of the peak demand to low demand periods
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>> I remain convinced they were intended as a way to implement variable charging depending on
>> overall demand, not better inform the public about usage which was already evident from a
>> quarterly bill.
Smart electricity meters were introduced to to fleece consumers over a little known property called "power factor". It hasnt happened yet, but its possible.
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>>
>> "power factor".
>>
I have looked at Google but cannot find a simple explanation. Can you explain what power factor is in very simple terms please?
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In AC power circuits the current in the load is not always in sync with the waveform of the voltage supplied to it. If the load is purely resistive like an oven element then they will be in sync but if there is any capacitive or inductive part of the load then the current will increase or decrease before (capacitive/leading) or after (inductive/lagging) the change in voltage. This means that you can't calculate the actual power consumed by a simple W=VI. Power Factor is the ratio between the 'apparent' power and the 'real' power consumed and leccy meters need to take this into account when calculating consumption.
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>> In AC power circuits the current in the load is not always in sync with
>> the waveform of the voltage supplied to it. If the load is purely resistive like
Technically wot he said
In practise it means the supplying company can bill you on how efficiently you use the power supplied to you. ie they could bill you more for your fridge than your electric fire. Common place in industry not so in consumer markets YET.
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>> >> In AC power circuits the current in the load is not always in sync
>> with
>> >> the waveform of the voltage supplied to it. If the load is purely resistive
>> like
>>
>> Technically wot he said
>>
>> In practise it means the supplying company can bill you on how efficiently you use
>> the power supplied to you. ie they could bill you more for your fridge than
>> your electric fire. Common place in industry not so in consumer markets YET.
>>
Not unreasonable as the energy company has to absorb the losses in transmitting the inductive or capacitative component. Although not in the bill yet my smart meter shows me readings in both kVAh and kVArh.
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.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 17 Aug 22 at 08:19
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>> Smart electricity meters were introduced to to fleece consumers over a little known property >>>called
>> "power factor". It hasnt happened yet, but its possible.
OMG, that takes me back decades to a lesson in the 'power hall' of my tech college, where the tutor told us he had to inform the supply industry when he turned on certain equipment. You could hear the stuff trying to synchronise to the 50HZ supply.
It's all to do with the current lagging the voltage (or is it t'other way round) due to the inductive load. You almost need a degree to understand this stuff.
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It tells me that between 03.00 and 0.30 on Saturday 6th August I used 0.09 kWh of electricity and no gas.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Fri 12 Aug 22 at 15:37
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As I suspected. All it can do is query the total consumption sent back to your provider by the meter. You can query that from a PC as well so you could graph usage if it interested you. The finest granularity is typically 30 minute intervals though (same with Octopus Energy).
With the PZEM setup I can see and record consumption data 30 times a minute if I wanted, although it's currently set to once per minute. Accurate too, at 1% or better.
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Fascinating but I don’t really see the point. For all practical purpose I have all the info I require.
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>Fascinating but I don’t really see the point. For all practical purpose I have all
>the info I require.
Fine. If you're satisfied with what your supplier provides then everyone's happy. I was just pointing out that you don't need a smart meter to monitor your leccy usage.
Last edited by: Kevin on Fri 12 Aug 22 at 19:17
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...PZEM...
Had no idea about these. One Google later and that sounds like a fun little project. If it all costs about £50, that will have a payback of about an hour this time next year.
Ta Kevin.
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Crankcase,
the interface to the PZEM is 5V so if you're going to hook it up to a microcontroller use level shifters. Don't butcher the board itself like some online examples.
I don't think anyone else will be interested so if you want a rundown on how I've done it email me.
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>> I don't think anyone else will be interested so if you want a rundown on
>> how I've done it email me.
I am interested, Smokey will be, so a separate post on here maybe?
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>> I am interested, Smokey will be, so a separate post on here maybe?
Seconded.
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OK, I'll put something together over the next few days and drop it in a new thread under Computery.
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>> OK, I'll put something together over the next few days and drop it in a
>> new thread under Computery.
Great stuff, but in your own time of course. Well, it will be, but you know what I mean. Be useful to me as we don't have a smart meter and EDF won't fit one. Three phase blah blah.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 12 Aug 22 at 19:21
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Yep I'm in. Hadn't heard of them. I want to monitor my solar more than my leccy but I could do both... :-) It'll be an autumn project so I can order parts from Ali Express as the won't arrive till Oct now :-)
I'll need Noddy level instruction though...
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When prices were last fixed, gas was at about 200p / therm (6.8p / kWh) wholesale and had been for most of the winter; last summer's price was mostly <100p. 6.8p is close to the current cap. It's now at 400p / therm (13.4p/kWh) summer - although that is another recent spike, but it's been >200 except for a few weeks in may. On that basis, the 70% increase looks light....
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At somewhere about 55% above the cap, that would put ours above £9000. That's going to hurt!
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>> May well be more help on the way from the government.
There will have to be. Energy bills are forecast to be around 400% higher than they were at the beginning of the year. At least half the population will not be anywhere near able to withstand that or anything like it.
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 13 Aug 22 at 21:25
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>>At least half the population will not be anywhere near able to withstand that or anything like it.
That was my conclusion, given the median household disposable income is said to be £32,000.
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"At least half the population will not be anywhere near able to withstand that or anything like it."
That half would be around 20 million households I guess
If, for the sake of argument, the average increase is around 4,000 per household how much of that amount should be paid for by the government do you think and if the increase turns out to permanent shold that subsidy beome permanent?
Assuming the government were to pay it all the cost would be around 80 billion pre annum
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The wider issue is how the government would pay for it. It’s pretty much inevitable that those who can pay the increase will also end up paying for those who can’t. Whether through tax or borrowing costs it’s going to require money. Those who can pay will end up paying twice, for themselves and others.
While the outlook is currently gloomy it could turn very quickly if there was regime change in Russia or, more likely, some grubby deal done by the back door to buy Russian fuel again.
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Most of it shouldn't be paid for by the government because it doesn't need to be. Excessive profits are being made here by those supplying the energy, so it's simply a matter of capping the price charged to the consumer.
The UK is uniquely placed to do this as we are not reliant on suppliers in Russia or the mid east.
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I have to mention this as myself and others (including the media) still are unsure as to why the prices are so high and whose pockets the money is ending up in.
As has been said we don't rely on Russian gas plus from what I've learnt from here even if the UK was self-sufficient on gas/oil we would still have sky-high prices, none of which makes sense when comparing to the normal volume v price model, also the high prices seem to only be linked the Ukraine war and there is an assumption that all will be ok once/if it ends.
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If the increase in energy costs is short lived and normality resumed in (say) 6-12 months then the government can sensibly fund any support for those least able through borrowing.
If long term, a reset of expectations is needed - higher energy costs impacts all. Simply borrowing more is not an option. A balance needs to be struck between support, taxation, reduced consumption , and reduced public spending.
The way in which support has been provided seems far too complex. It wold be much better to simply subsidise energy bills up to a certain lowish level of consumption. This would allow all to have their basic energy needs met at an affordable price.
Consumption above this level would be at the full market rate - payable by the profligate or those with larger properties (generally wealthier). Lower energy costs would reduce the headline rate of inflation and pay claims - in a way that (say) a NI threshold increase does not.
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>> Excessive profits are being made here by those supplying the energy
What we don't know is where the profits are being made - are they made on UK sales or foreign sales?
Even though we don't rely on gas from abroad, pricing is based on market rates.
So, if we tell BP for example, to sell gas to the UK at a set price then they may just sell it elsewhere at a higher price and leave us to import gas at the market rate anyway.
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>> Even though we don't rely on gas from abroad, pricing is based on market rates.
Where does our gas come from?
Although some comes from the North Sea Google suggests we also import significant amounts of Liquified Natural Gas some of which we then re-export.
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>>
>> Where does our gas come from?
>>
>> Although some comes from the North Sea Google suggests we also import significant amounts of
>> Liquified Natural Gas some of which we then re-export.
>>
I was mistakenly taking Zero's comments above as gospel: "We are not dependent to others for gas supply, merely on the market price. So you tell the north sea gas producers that you supply the UK market at max XXX price or will we nationalise you again,"
I now recall a program on huge gas containers for LNG or similar being built in Wales.
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>> Where does our gas come from?
>>
>> Although some comes from the North Sea Google suggests we also import significant amounts of
>> Liquified Natural Gas some of which we then re-export.
SOME is 50%. 30% is from Norway 20% is imported LNG.
It is spectacularly easy for the UK to set a caped price on the suppliers in the UK.
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>> SOME is 50%. 30% is from Norway 20% is imported LNG.
I cannot see why Norway would give us concessions on market rates and LNG is, at a guess, from the Middle East and at market rates too.
Nationalise the remaining UK North Sea assets and invest in upping production and possible new exploration. Reinstate the Rough storage facility NOW...
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>> >> SOME is 50%. 30% is from Norway 20% is imported LNG.
>>
>> I cannot see why Norway would give us concessions on market rates and LNG is,
>> at a guess, from the Middle East and at market rates too.
Nearly all comes from Qatar, I'm pretty sure we signed a long term deal with them about 10 years ago.
>> Nationalise the remaining UK North Sea assets and invest in upping production and possible new
>> exploration.
I don't think there's much has worth getting out of the ground not in a significant amounts.
Reinstate the Rough storage facility NOW...
>>
There's not much capacity there when it was in use, about 5 days supply at most.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sat 13 Aug 22 at 17:55
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>> I don't think there's much has worth getting out of the ground not in a
>> significant amounts.
50% of our annual use (for 50 years) is not significant?
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>>
>> >> I don't think there's much has worth getting out of the ground not in
>> a
>> >> significant amounts.
>>
>> 50% of our annual use (for 50 years) is not significant?
>>
In relation to new significant amounts of gas in the North Sea.
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We are in a short term conundrum. Long term is renewables. not new gas.
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>> We are in a short term conundrum. Long term is renewables. not new gas.
>>
We are, how we fill any gaps in the last next 10 years for power generation for example will interesting.
Wind power will be pretty hefty in terms of GW but suffers from obvious drawbacks, nuclear has been ignored, by 2030 we'll have 1 new nuclear possibly 2. But that'll only put us back in the position we were a couple of years ago.
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Although some comes from the North Sea Google suggests we also import significant amounts of
>> Liquified Natural Gas some of which we then re-export.
>>
From what I've read 40 % of regasification capacity is in the UK, the pipelines to Europe are at full capacity. Many countries in Europe have little or no capacity.
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>> So, if we tell BP for example, to sell gas to the UK at a
>> set price then they may just sell it elsewhere at a higher price
50% comes ashore in the UK from UK fields. How do you propose BP ship it back out again?
Market rates can easily be bypassed in that scenario.
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>> >> Excessive profits are being made here by those supplying the energy
>>
>> What we don't know is where the profits are being made - are they made
>> on UK sales or foreign sales?
>>
...I'd have thought that in your business you would be an expert at "follow the money".
The "market price" argument is at best misleading, at worst downright dishonest. It seems to be an accepted fact that the oil/gas companies are making a killing from the current crisis.
I doubt much of the cost base, from extraction through to refining and transporting has risen much. It is certainly arguable that demand has risen for the lower pool of remaining production. That enables, but doesn't entirely justify, the nature of the rises we are seeing.
Historically such enterprises have managed to obfuscate any profiteering through a combination of means, including vertical integration and/or transfer pricing (with some offshoring of subsidiaries in there as well).
Using this combination, it's entirely possible for (say) the retail arm of a fuel company to plead that it is making only small margins, reselling product at low markups above purchase. The wholesale company however (vertically integrated and essentially the same group) may well be selling them the fuel at a significant margin (and making a good/excessive profit). At the same time, the American arm of the same group may be selling "services" to the UK arm at over-the-top pricing, at a stroke moving large amounts of otherwise profit elsewhere (and quite possibly to a different tax jurisdiction).
I admit, I'm quite surprised that they seem to have largely abandoned such obfuscation and just seem to be comfortable with "we're making loads'a money, suck it up, plebs", though I think such attitude is becoming more and more the way of the world.
*I managed a very large IT outsource for some time. The service provider throughout maintained they were losing money on the deal. I knew they weren't because I knew the cost of the services almost to a penny. The issue was they were a UK-based subsidiary paying large fees through transfer pricing to the US mothership (and receiving absolutely nada in return). US mothership happy, UK subsidiary quite happy ('cos they could keep hammering the finance guys, who didn't get the concept at all, for price rises).
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There are two separate issues - (a) the market price of oil and gas, and (b) the price charged to the consumer after refining, generation, distribution etc. Muddling the two does not help.
Mandating changes to the market price would be complex to implement and open to all sorts of manipulation/avoidance. Governments need legislative authority - depends where the company is registered, and whether the source is a UK field.
Foreign companies extracting oil and gas from a foreign field cannot be controlled - if the UK wants supply they have to pay the market price.
If changing the market price will not work, the alternative is a windfall tax. This can only be applied to UK taxpaying companies. Foreign companies will not pay. For UK companies the windfall tax may only apply to extraction from UK field, not their worldwide assets.
Providing support for consumers needs to be funded - could be through windfall taxes, increased public sector borrowing, increased taxation to balance the books etc.
The price reduction mechanism could be through removing VAT, green levies, fixed sum subsidies off the bill, reduced unit price, changes to UC, NI or tax etc etc. The choice is about fairness - that those needing most support get most help and no-one falls through the "cracks".
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Has anyone evaluated the windfall tax the Govt are getting from the price hikes?
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Beware of increasing Taxation Oil & Gas Profits TODAY!
Why?
TOMORROW you will be looking to the same Oil & Gas company to invest in exploration, new fields, update existing rigs & plant and deliver UK North Sea gas for the next 30+ years.
2021
Biden clamped down on no new exploration licences on UK Government land in 2021
Biden closed down a new XL pipeline from Canada into the USA which would have supplied Middle of USA
That and the slow down caused by Covid has cut investment, cut exploration, cut supply and raised Gasoline (petrol) to as high as $1.25 per litre
Today - New licences for exploration on Government land
Incentives to pump more as Gasoline & Gas prices have risen.
Biden faces November mid-term Elections.
Jackdaw - a new field in the North Sea may be developed and deliver in say 4/5 years. A son was the drilling manager about 20 years ago when the first drilling took place - new but a small field hence it was not developed years ago - it has changed hands 2/3 times in 20 years.
He is now in charge of the spending of $4 to 5Billion per year drilling/fracking new wells in the USA. Further sites in Asia, Norway, Canada ..... notably nothing in the UK North Sea.
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In 2020 Shell LOST US$22bn. Coincidentally BP lost US$22bn in 2020 as well. They also had to write off US$25bn investment in Russia following the invasion of Ukraine.
There was no great clamour for the taxpayer to bail them out and (no doubt) staff, pension funds, shareholders suffered as a result.
In a free market businesses need to take the rough with the smooth. But if governments get a simply confiscate assets/cash in the good times, businesses will become very nervous of further investment, and set corporate structures and contractual affairs to minimise the risk.
As is often the case it is political expediency and the pursuit of popularity which put windfall taxes on the agenda, not thoughtful longer term good sense.
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>> In a free market businesses need to take the rough with the smooth. But if
>> governments get a simply confiscate assets/cash in the good times, businesses will become very nervous
>> of further investment
If there's a prospect of profit they will invest. Investment in the North Sea stopped because LNG and Russian gas via pipelines was cheaper; no return.
Threats to investment over taxation of profits, ordinary or excess, reminds me of shroud waving by medical staff when their positions are threatened.
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>>the North Sea stopped because LNG and Russian gas
One reason
Bigger reason is the new North Sea fields are much smaller than the 70s& 80s - no more Forties/Ninian sized fields. West of Shetland fields have been less productive than envisaged - lots of money invested for smallish returns.
Norway on the other hand Norwegian Sea has see new large fields and money is being invested big style - Billions every year recently and in the near future both Equinor & US Companies
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It amuses me that Norway is the leader in 'low emission' EVs by giving huge tax breaks to owner / drivers, all funded by.....selling Oil and Gas to other countries. Hypocrites!
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>> It amuses me that Norway is the leader in 'low emission' EVs by giving huge
>> tax breaks to owner / drivers, all funded by.....selling Oil and Gas to other countries.
>> Hypocrites!
Well when 90% of your power comes from clean hydro, what you gonna do with it.
Mind you they might regret it when climate change caused by selling oil and gas to the world does away with their glaciers.
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Norway - 40% of exports, and 14% of GDP comes from oil and gas. Probably a lot more now with increased market prices.
They would find themselves in deep doo-doo if they decided to close the taps.
They at least had the good sense to invest heavily in infrastructure and save - they have the worlds largest sovereign wealth fund.
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>>
>> They at least had the good sense to invest heavily in infrastructure and save -
>> they have the worlds largest sovereign wealth fund.
>>
Shame we don't have one. But then knowing our lot, on all sides of the chamber, they would let it get to a reasonable size then flog its assets of cheaply to their mates to fund tax cuts and sod infrastructure.
Last edited by: zippy on Wed 17 Aug 22 at 10:04
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Dad is about to come off his fixed tariff and been offered another one which Is much dearer than the next two projected price caps. I noted Martin Lewis have info along the lines of these might still be worth considering taking the longer term projections into account.
I am, maybe naively, of the opinion that as soon as Truss gets in she will announce something to alleviate the bills and to get her some initial popularity. I do wonder how that will go down with those that have signed up to higher fixed deals.
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Won't she just announce another fifty trillion of support, which will equate upping the £66 a month we're all getting to £67? Easiest way to do it.
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>> I am, maybe naively, of the opinion that as soon as Truss gets in she
>> will announce something to alleviate the bills and to get her some initial popularity. I
>> do wonder how that will go down with those that have signed up to higher
>> fixed deals.
Good point.
The price caps that are being mooted are so high that it would inevitably IMO put over half the households in the country in some difficulty. I think you are right, there is likely to be something else in terms of support. In the near future gas could be 7 times what I was paying Avro before it went bust, and electricity 4 times.
The rationale answer I suppose is that your Dad needs a plan that will work whatever happens. If he has substantial savings to cushion a shock, that could mean just accepting the risk of variable rates, in the same way that if you have money in the bank you take the risk of your washer breaking down rather than the certainty of coughing up an extra £200.
A fix would give him a period of certainty, but the extra cost short term might be material and he might never recover it.
I'm just going with the variable.
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Going with a fixed rate means you are effectively paying someone else to take the risks.
In more normal times fixed rate will often be below capped rate as energy companies benefit from having a locked in customer at a known price. They can trade in the market to cover their risks.
Right now the future is full of risk and the energy companies charge a large premium to fix the rate - they are taking a material risk.
Personally I am sticking with the capped rate. The rate will have to increase a lot to make a fixed rate commitment better. In future the price cap will be reviewed at 3 month intervals so that if the price falls, the price I pay will be reduced fairly quickly.
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It interesting to not though though that in March we were being told by Martin Lewis that we would be better off sticking with the variable rates than accepting the fixed rate deals that were then on offer. He was wrong.
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>> It interesting to not though though that in March we were being told by Martin
>> Lewis that we would be better off sticking with the variable rates than accepting the
>> fixed rate deals that were then on offer. He was wrong.
The fixed rates in March looked eye watering.
Only with hindsight can we see that they were actually a missed opportunity.
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"Only with hindsight can we see that they were actually a missed opportunity."
Absolutely and it shows that Martin Lewis' predictions and advice should be taken with a large pinch of salt.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 17 Aug 22 at 16:45
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>> Absolutely and it shows that Martin Lewis' predictions and advice should be taken with a
>> large pinch of salt.
That things look different with hindsight is a generic risk in any kind of advice. It's not specific to Martin Lewis.
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True but it is important to be aware that self proclaimed experts’s opinions can be and are quite often wrong.
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Yes it looks attractive for the example given but if they can play with charges/rebates in real time they will also do it in ways that don’t suit the customer.
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All homes need to have smart meters . It makes total sense to be able to model price of electricity according to supply and demand
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Can't have one in my home, so EDF tell me.
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By the end of 2025 they have to offer a smart meter to anyone who wants one.
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>> By the end of 2025 they have to offer a smart meter to anyone who
>> wants one.
They came to me last year sometime, took a look in the cupboard, told me there were no meters that work with three phase, and even if there were, EDF engineers weren't trained to deal with "that sort of setup". Went away. Even though two of the phases are unused and terminated.
Dunno if that's still true but doesn't seem like I'll be getting a smart meter from them.
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I know Octopus can put in three phase meters so they are available. Though I remember a tale (from a forum) of it taking many many visits, as most engineers were not trained in it.
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>>All homes need to have smart meters...
It would be nice if the technology worked.
Our home display device often cannot connect to the meter and I notice at the same time the data available from the electricity company drops out as well, so half hour meter readings are not available.
Try pricing on demand when the meter cannot tell the electricity company what is being used.
There are also some areas where smart meters are currently "banned".
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All true but these technical issues need to be resolved. Smart meters make sense to enable intelligent use of resources.
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Smart meters if they are working properly show how much and when energy is being consumed.
They do not identify the energy user, although some estimates could be made. Overnight consumption is probably limited lighting + items on standby + fridge and freezer.
Daytime it is difficult to correlate meter readings with consumption. Heating use depends on ambient temperatures, internal thermostat settings and is only loosely correlated with both. Bringing a room up to temperature is a heavy demand, maintaining it is a much lower.
With a gas boiler it is not possible to separate space heating consumption from hot water demands.
Making an evening meal may be overlaid on heating demand and include oven, hob, kettle, microwave.
Actually reducing energy use needs an understanding of precisely what is creating the demand and alternative strategies. Smart meters are simply a means to introduce time and demand variable charging (not a bad idea) but do just about nothing to inform energy saving.
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>> Smart meters if they are working properly show how much and when energy is being
>> consumed.
I don’t understand why people need to know, unless your home is electric only and you have tariffs with cheaper leccy at night.
I’ve both gas and electric and aren’t in the least bit interested in how much energy is being consumed. If I need it I need it ! I think the only things I have on stand by are the pilot light in my gas boiler, the electric oven and my electric toothbrush.
I never leave lights on in a room I’m not in, and every single appliance is switched off at the plug unless being used.
To the best of my knowledge my Octopus dual fuel tariff ( no idea what it is at the moment but I’ll check) has the same price per Kwh 24/7. I don’t think it’s cheaper to run my washing machine at 22:00 on a Sunday rather than 08:00 on a Monday.
The only way I can reduce my electric consumption is to sit in the dark reading a book with a head torch, rather like when I’m backpacking, but that’s not going to happen anytime soon. I could go down the route of warming water in the oven after I’ve used it then put it in a thermos to use in the kettle later, but don’t think I cba.
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Despite your "If I need it I need it ", you've clearly done work on reducing your bills though LL, and you already have a good understanding of where it's going - many don't. I'm not suggestion a smart meter assists much but that basic level of understanding would save a lot of people a lot of money.
In themselves, smart meters may not enable that much right now, in the same way as smart motorways don't. But it starts to bring potential for some genuine efficiencies ( I suppose for the producers/suppliers as much as the end user) with time-of-use tariffs.
I've got the Octopus 4 hour cheap rate overnight and I charge the car in that time - 7.5p per unit v. 36.5. Quit a saving, and pushing me to use the grid when the electricity is at it's cheapest. I also do other heavy duty stuff like run the dishwasher and the washing machine during that time but they may eventually prevent you doing that, who knows? There are smarter tariffs which charge your car in separate half hour slots determined on a daily basis by Octopus, based around your stated requirement for percentage availability at certain times. Then you have the upcoming V2H and V2G electric cars which will act as a battery for your house or the grid - I believe this will depend on smart metering though it must also be driven by the car charging kit. Anyway suffice to say that there's more to them than just knowing when your energy is being consumed.
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I'm not sure all the knock ons for using electricity more and night and tariffs that flex through the day.
You've got potential more appliances on at night (if they can be turned up via timer at all) with an
inevitable increase in house fires. I remember a few years ago, there being widespread concern about tumble drier fires. With them being high electricity use items we may find them being turned on in the small hours, and the corresponding increase in fire risk. See the same for batteries for consumer goods being charged.
What are the government in power going to do when the inevitable stories about pensioners/working families who can't afford to turn the oven on until midnight etc etc ? Because they'll come up.
There's probably more as well.
Mind you that's another politicians problem, so assume there are no negative issues to deal.
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Wasn't the rash of tumble dryer fires a few years back mainly down to a particular brand with a built-in fault, now all the subject of recalls?
The fire risk is no greater at night than during the day. If people install, use and maintain them properly (mainly clean the fluff out regularly) I don't think they are particularly dangerous.
Many (maybe all?) fire services will supply and fit smoke alarms for free - I expect there are many who still haven't got them, and if I was a hand-wringer on others behalf that'd be higher on my list than not using a tumble dryer overnight.
I get what you're saying it about the midnight eating stuff. My cheap period starts at 21:30 so if I'm thirsty at 21:00 I tend to delay my mid evening cuppa till then :-).
But I'm not sure it's always the government's job to do something about everything, apart from making sure benefits and pensions keep pace with inflation. I am seeing locally a lot of carp being thrown at the local council for stuff - people complaining about the potholes, so the council come along and repair them but people moan that the road is closed while they do it. Can't win.
I'd like to see people leaning less on government and taking more personal responsibility for stuff.
Which made me remember some bloke in the paper the other week who lives on his own in a two bedroom flat saying his bill was go over £4500. I did wonder whether he'd made any effort to understand and manage his usage, as that's considerably more than mine even with my car. Maybe he's mining Bitcoin :-)
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The only problems we have with setting the tumble drier to run at night are:
1) it can keep those in the room upstairs awake with the noise
2) it has to be set on with the power on, then turn the power to it off so that when the power comes back on it restarts at the right time. (The tumble drier itself doesn't have a timer). So it's bit of a fiddle every time you need to set it.
Also it's worth having a smoke alarm in the same room as the TD anyway. Ours in in the garage with a linked set to the main house. Having said this, garage ones tend to be heat operated and not smoke, so once a spare microwave in the garage burned a potato to a crisp with smoke everywhere without it actually setting the alarm off!
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Using appliances over night carries the risk that if overheating/fire occur they will not be discovered as quickly as during the day. Fire may spread. My parents knew somebody who's tumble dryer started a fire that way. Lot of fire damage. Humans got out but the dog died of smoke inhalation.
The risk can though be managed. Ensure the dryer's fluff filter is kept clean. Check if lint accumulates anywhere else. Make sure you have smoke alarms and they work. Nothing flammable nearby, better a hard floor than carpet. Is there a fire check door?
Our appliances are in the kitchen/utility at the back of the house, well away from our bedroom. If there was a fire we could escape/be rescued via the front.
I read somewhere that dishwashers are more of a fire threat than tumble dryers as the flexing of wires in the door can cause a short circuit.
As to the man expecting a £4500 bill for a 2 bed had he just assumed he would pay the publicised average? How well insulated is the property? Flats built for councils in the fifties/sixties often have poor insulation construction and steel elements create cold spots on walls and around windows.
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The fire risk is no greater at night than during the day. If people install,
>> use and maintain them properly (mainly clean the fluff out regularly) I don't think they
>> are particularly dangerous.
The more people use them at night the more they'll happen when the house is full and the house is asleep. Thats an inevitable consequence.
>> Many (maybe all?) fire services will supply and fit smoke alarms for free - I
>> expect there are many who still haven't got them, and if I was a hand-wringer
>> on others behalf that'd be higher on my list than not using a tumble dryer
>> overnight.
I wouldn't classify myself as hand wringer, I'm not really what one is. Anyway a smoke alarm isnt a form prevention.
My post wasn't really about white goods and fires but the fall out from this policy by government. It's absolutely the government's role to do something about this. They brought the policy in with clear fore thought, it wasn't forced on them like Ukraine or covid. They can take the glory, they can also deal with the fallout of those negative consequences. It sits firmly with them and no one else.
I'd like to see people leaning less on government and taking more personal responsibility for
>> stuff.
>>
Maybe they could start filling in their own potholes? ;)
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>> Despite your "If I need it I need it ", you've clearly done work on
>> reducing your bills though LL,
Smokie....most kind but I’ve done no work on reducing my bills. I’ve taken those actions since I bought my first falling down hovel aged 21. Needs must at the time in order to afford the mortgage. Haven’t used my ancient tumble drier in the garage for a number of years so that must save on the electric bill.
I don’t envisage buying an electric car in my lifetime, but out of curiosity I’ll check out what Octopus tariff I’m on. I’ve plenty of loft insulation, more seasoned wood than you can shake a stick at ( pun intended) ready to use in my Morso multi fuel stove, and am incredibly fortunate to be active and in sufficiently good health to exercise at home so never feel cold....wearing a minimum of 2 layers in winter is just common sense.
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Poor terminology from me LL, I meant that you are informed and you do the right stuff to keep your bills down. Many aren't, and don't.
Bromps, one of the comedians I saw in Edinburgh did a bit on the public who have been asked for comment on a news item. I know it won't be popular with everyone but it went along the lines of the media go out seeking a comment during the working day and the only people they can find is those not out at work, so (politely putting it) they weren't necessarily the right people to be featuring in their "news" item. It was a very funny part of the routine and as I say I'm sure some would take offence but it was really I suppose saying that news items often seem to also have to include a vox pop opinion these days, and often they are likely to be taken on face value but aren't really necessarily that representative of the public at large.
Sooty - didn't Sir Rod Stewart fill some of his own earlier in the year? No doubt upsetting someone along the way :-)
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If you are a tumble drier user, you evidently care little for the environment - or live in a flat. Fresh air is the way to dry clothes - it's worked for thousands of years.
Very occasionally appliances catch fire and, unless detected early, a conflagration destroys all. Cleaning filters etc usually prevents this. Alternatively a smoke detector for a few ££ eliminates the risk - although you need to invest in batteries every few years!
The proposition that using energy intensive appliances outside peak demand periods makes a lot of sense. It reduces costs for everyone as peak load and thus investment and spare capacity is minimised.
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>> Fresh air is the way to dry clothes - it's worked for thousands of years.
Not so easy though in the west country, where it rains every day and twice on Sundays.
(*_*)
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>> If you are a tumble drier user, you evidently care little for the environment -
It's quite possible to use a tumble dryer occasionally, and care about the environment.
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Mine is a heat pump one, or something like that, so is pretty efficient. It's mainly used for softening stuff (towels etc) after they've mostly dried outside. So she tells me anyway.
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>> It's mainly used for softening stuff (towels etc) after they've mostly dried outside.
Same here, apparently.
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>> Mine is a heat pump one, or something like that, so is pretty efficient.
Ours has a heat pump too, a Bosch rated at around 1000 watts. Dries my Rohan gear in a little over half an hour.
We dry stuff outside in summer but it's not that effective in winter. Very wary of condensation if we dry stuff inside.
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I'd never heard of a heat pump tumble dryer before. I'll add that to 'the list', along with an air fryer.
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...is fried air part of the slimming diet....?
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Heat pump tumble driers are about 50% more efficient than conventional vented driers. Disadvantages are that the are more expensive to buy and take longer to dry clothes. You also need to empty the water tank periodically.
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The greater efficiency saves money offsetting the increased cost a bit (and probably helps the planet). Never done the sums though.
Seems that generally heat pump ones are rated A++, vented ones C and condensor B.
The water tank is the transparent door in my one and it is simple to empty. I imagine you also have to clear fluff from somewhere but it's in the Pink Job area so I wouldn't know!! (I think I was involved with the original machine setup and mansplaining of the instructions but it was a long time ago...) :-)
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Ours is plumbed in, it pumps the condensate out into the drain. It also uses the water to flush the condenser to that does not need removing/cleaning.
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How crrrazy is this ... Talking to the ole woman about air friers, I sez what we need is a double oven where (presumably) the small oven uses less energy?
Wifey replies we have a double oven, which of course I nose but, I never ever use the thing.
An oven is an oven to iriots like me - you cook stuff in the bottom oven, and grill stuff in the top bit, right?
For instance, I'll cook a single solitary measly half starved Tesco fish cake for my wife (I have Waitrose jobbies :)) at 200c in the 'main' oven, and I've been doing that for years.
How much leccie have I been wasting for Jehovah's sake!! The sooner I get that there air dryer oven the better.
:)
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Our top oven includes a microwave.
Latterly we've been in the habit of turning it on as a fan oven at 100 degrees C for approx 10 minutes to warm plates. Gets them to a nice temperature without being too hot to handle.
Now we put them in with a tablespoon or so of water on each and microwave on full power for 90 seconds. Just as warm but a fraction of the leccy.
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>>s.
>>
>> How much leccie have I been wasting for Jehovah's sake!! The sooner I get that
>> there air dryer oven the better.
>>
We've had an air fryer for some years, I haven't a clue how to use it but it's now been given away to a pal of my grandson who is living with mates now. I wasn't keen on the chips it cooked, bring back the old chip pan with a huge lump of solid fat in it ! SWM used it a lot but eldest daughter bought us a Ninja which, apparently, does all and more that an air fryer does. It;s like a not so small Dalek sat on the worktop.
A few years ago she whined for an inductive hob. Never used that either, can't see the controls under the smoked glass ! Any road up, it's now sat on it's own in the extension as we now have a brand, spanking new gas hob in it's place. Apparently it was ruining her nonstick pans. Anyone want to buy the induction one ?
I always use the tumble dryer, as I use a walking stick to balance, I can't easily hang the clothes out using one hand, I'm all over the place !
Ted
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>>eldest daughter bought us a Ninja which, apparently, does all and more that an air fryer does. It;s like a not so small Dalek sat on the worktop.
Dat's the thing - more junk on the worktops. Okay here as the kitchen isn't small, plus we have a utility room but, the rabbit hutch we're looking to *buy only has a small kitchen, so a Ninja wouldn't really fit in there at all at all.
We have an induction hob which I believe is quite energy efficient, but I'd rather have a gas hob like we've always had.
I doos the cooking here 6 days a week :)
*Yeah, might pull out of the purchase, having read (and re-read) the original planning application!!
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>> For instance, I'll cook a single solitary measly half starved Tesco fish cake for my
>> wife (I have Waitrose jobbies :))
>>
...hmmm; even if they are Waitrose I think I'd go with the Tesco fish cake.....
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Energy bills - CGNorwich
