Non-motoring > The Ukraine - Volume 6
Thread Author: VxFan Replies: 100

 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - VxFan

Continuing discussion.

648338
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 29 Jun 22 at 11:38
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
news.sky.com/story/nato-to-significantly-increase-forces-on-high-alert-to-over-300-000-from-40-000-amid-russia-threat-12641191

That's a big increase, i find it hard to believe without a big increase in budgets what with all manner of domestic issues, I'll believe it when i see it.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Lygonos
NATO has well over 3 million personnel.

Is a change in battle readiness more than a monster recruiting effort.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123

>> Is a change in battle readiness more than a monster recruiting effort.
>>

It's both recruiting and training along with large increase in supplies of equipment and munitions. All of which cost lots of money.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
news.sky.com/story/britain-and-allies-face-1937-moment-following-ukraine-war-head-of-army-to-warn-12641463

Looks there may well be an increase in the MoD's budget.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Zero
Its two things.

belief that there is an existential threat to a Nato country

A show of force to warn against such threat.

 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Lygonos
About time for EU/NATO/Japan to put massive import duties on goods from countries buying Russian oil & gas (once EU gets its finger out of its bum and does the same).

While India/China/eEU are gobbling up Russian oil the intended crippling of Russia's economy isn't quite working out.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Mon 27 Jun 22 at 16:42
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Terry
It is reported Russian oil revenues have INCREASED since the invasion of Ukraine - volumes down but prices up on sales to India, China etc.

This could easily persuade Putin to prolong the war - it's good for bizness.

Suggesting import duties are imposed on goods from those countries which are still buying Russian oil is, of course, entirely principled.

In four months time, as winter sets, in much of Europe could be facing shortages of energy and consumer goods, with inflation even higher due to import duties and price increases on goods imported from China and India.

Being pragmatic, rather than principled, for how long will Europe continue to unreservedly support Ukraine vs urgently seeking a resolution to "get back to normal". This won't have escaped Putin!

All very sad - but the bully may well get much of what he wants.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - CGNorwich
The pressure will come when Russia has taken control of the Donbas region, which now looks inevitable and Putin announces that having liberated it from “Right wing terrorist and Nazi sympathisers” he would consider a cease fire. Putin’s long term aim of course would of course be to build up the strength of his military and repeat the whole process some time in the future.

Would the West turn down such an offer of a cease fire? I think it will be very difficult for it to maintain a united front and refuse to consider such an offer considering the massive military and economic cost it is currently incurring.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Zero

>> sympathisers” he would consider a cease fire. Putin’s long term aim of course would of
>> course be to build up the strength of his military and repeat the whole process
>> some time in the future.

His long term aim is in tatters. The back of his land army is broken, the black sea navy ineffective, the Western region Airforce seen to be useless, senior command staff dead, or sacked, and Nato reinvigorated and expanded.

Great aim. Fabulous plan. Well executed.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - zippy
Unfortunately, if he is backed in to a corner, he may feel that he has nothing to lose, especially given concerns about his health.

So expect more indiscriminate bombing with nastier and nastier weapons.

It is a real shame that Ukraine hasn't hit really valuable* targets in Russia to give them a really blood y nose - but of course that could escalate matters as well.

*the new multi-billion bridge to the Crimea would be a good start, but there has got to be more targets like airports, other bridges, railway lines etc.

Do they have long range missiles?
Last edited by: zippy on Tue 28 Jun 22 at 12:48
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Lygonos
He still has Belarus to be forced to "take one for the team."

And Hungary's leader is obviously a stooge.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Zero
>> He still has Belarus to be forced to "take one for the team."

I get the feeling Alexander Lukashenko might get a little windy

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And Hungary's leader is obviously a stooge.

If there is one bright spot about being out the EU - its that ^^^ lot.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Zero

>> Do they have long range missiles?

Not yet, medium range missiles (3-500km) ones on the way, with strict orders that mainland ussian targets are not allowed.

I guess Crimea and all of the Donbas is not officially Russian
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123

>> Do they have long range missiles?
>>
>>

They have missiles that can hit into Russia and have used them. An oil refinery and a couple of Russian airbases, they don't use them much though.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - zippy
>> they don't use them much though.
>>

Why not?

Is it a fear of escalation?
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
> Why not?
>>
>> Is it a fear of escalation?
>>

Possibly and likely they have few that they can reasonably guarantee are accurate. The last thing need is one hitting a russian school.

They are pretty old, from the 70s.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/ukraine-reportedly-strikes-russian-airbase

heres a link zippy
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - CGNorwich
>>
>>
>> Great aim. Fabulous plan. Well executed.
>>
So if Putin offers a ceasefire after successfully seizing the Donbas ( the Russians have nearly achieved this) what will be the response of the West. My view is that there will be significant pressure from the US and some European countries for Ukraine to accept the status quo and effectively cede the Donbas to Russia.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Zero
>> So if Putin offers a ceasefire after successfully seizing the Donbas ( the Russians have
>> nearly achieved this) what will be the response of the West. My view is that
>> there will be significant pressure from the US and some European countries for Ukraine to
>> accept the status quo and effectively cede the Donbas to Russia.

Of course they will, but just the Donbas wasnt Putins ultimate goal. He'll have a hostile population to contain, A nato partner on his doorstop, all with a crippled army at his disposal.

Fab. There is no victory for Putin, under any outcome of this. As soon as the assault on Kiev failed he was b ered
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 29 Jun 22 at 11:33
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - CGNorwich
The Russians might not have won their original war aims but Ukraine and the West will have lost and Putin survives to have another go in seven years time when he has rebuilt his army.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
and Putin survives to have another go in seven years time when
>> he has rebuilt his army.
>>

Why seven years or at all? The ukrainians get to rebuild as well.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - CGNorwich
Crimea
The Donbas
Another chunk of Ukraine ????

If you don’t care about the cost and human suffering which Putin patently doesn’t he’s winning.


 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
>> Crimea
>> The Donbas
>> Another chunk of Ukraine ????

Wars don't really happen on the basis on nice year gaps.

>> If you don’t care about the cost and human suffering which Putin patently doesn’t he’s
>> winning.

No idea who this is aimed at.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 29 Jun 22 at 11:33
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - CGNorwich
It’s badly worded. I’ll try again

If you are a dictator like Putin who doesn’t count the financial cost of the war and the human suffering he is causing but simply judges the result on territory acquired then he is winning.

By The way I didn’t mean to imply that it will be exactly seven years until he attempts another territorial war, only that another such land grab is inevitable once his military capability has been restored.

 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
If you are a dictator like Putin who doesn’t count the financial cost of the
>> war and the human suffering he is causing but simply judges the result on territory
>> acquired then he is winning.
>>
>> By The way I didn’t mean to imply that it will be exactly seven years
>> until he attempts another territorial war, only that another such land grab is inevitable once
>> his military capability has been restored.
>

I'd disagree with both those statements.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - CGNorwich
I guess you would have to ask Putin to ascertain if the first was correct and time will reveal whether the second is. I’ll make a diary now for 2029 to review.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Zero
>> I guess you would have to ask Putin to ascertain if the first was correct
>> and time will reveal whether the second is. I’ll make a diary now for 2029
>> to review.

I think you have missed and continue to miss several important points.

Putin wont be in power in 7 years, he probably wont even be alive.

The window for a cheap land grab closed the moment he failed, it wont be open again for another 30 years.

 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Zero
>> The Russians might not have won their original war aims but Ukraine and the West
>> will have lost and Putin survives to have another go in seven years time when
>> he has rebuilt his army.

He'll not be there in 7 years time. The west hasn't lost, you cant underestimate the long term positive effects - no reliance on Russian energy, Two new capable members in Nato (believe me you want the Finns on board) and Nato has a renewed mandate.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
Two new capable members
>> in Nato (believe me you want the Finns on board) and Nato has a renewed
>> mandate.
>>

www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20220622-with-an-eye-on-re-election-turkey-s-erdogan-risks-the-ire-of-western-partners

If they get in.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
news.sky.com/story/nato-turkey-agrees-to-back-finland-and-swedens-bid-to-join-alliance-12642100

Looks like they are joining now.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - zippy
>> So if Putin offers a ceasefire after successfully seizing the Donbas ( the Russians have
>> nearly achieved this) what will be the response of the West. My view is that
>> there will be significant pressure from the US and some European countries for Ukraine to
>> accept the status quo and effectively cede the Donbas to Russia.
>>

A great shame if that is the case. It basically tells a bully that it's OK to attack another country and effectively take territory.

Obviously this has been done before (e.g. Argentina with the Falklands, Israeli land grabs in Palestine, China with Tibet, China ignoring the Hong Kong agreements and the UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy, Spain, Portugal etc. countless times in the past) and I wonder how closely China are monitoring the situation re Taiwan?
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Bromptonaut
From the PoV of NATO and the west the risk is of escalation. If for example the current issue with Latvia blocking access to Kaliningrad prompts Russian action then it could very quickly become a direct Russia NATO conflict.

Russia's lack of options in that scenario could see Nukes being chucked in short order.

The pressure will be for a pragmatic solution where there is a cease fire and a peace keeping force with Donbas de facto under Russian control. Putin has the off ramp of a 'victory' for domestic consumption. The west, albeit shaken from their post cold war torpor, can return to normal or at least new normal.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Dog
>>Latvia

Lithuania.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - CGNorwich
I would agree but realistically the alternative would be to commit to a war without end or at least lasting years and costing the West untold billions both in direct military support and the hit to Western economies. A hard sell.

In the real world what do you think is more likely or perhaps you have another scenario as to how the war might end if Putin continues in power.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Terry
Putin will not want to retreat and acknowledge defeat. The West may continue supplying ever more effective weapons to Ukraine but fear of escalation probably means no direct involvement.

By the end of this year continued support of Ukraine and sanctions will come at an ever higher economic and political cost. The West will want a settlement.

The best outcome for Ukraine and the West is that Putin feels able to sell as a victory Russian control of Donbas, Crimea and Mariupol coast joining Russia with Crimea. A somewhat pyrrhic victory - the place now seems a wasteland bereft of most people, business, infrastructure etc.

Expect to see "Ukraine" fast tracked to EU membership and hosting NATO troops and exercises even if they do not join - this may be a condition of "peace".

With Finland, Sweden and Ukraine (largely) off the Putin agenda due to NATO relationships, Russian ambitions may be stalled for several years. Hopefully by then Putin will no longer an issue.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Bromptonaut
>> Expect to see "Ukraine" fast tracked to EU membership and hosting NATO troops and exercises
>> even if they do not join - this may be a condition of "peace".

I suspect the condition would be the other way with Ukraine off NATO's agenda.

If NATO had been explicit that any Membership would be a long and difficult haul then I suspect we'd not be where we are now.

Consider the position if the Cold War had been different and we'd ended up with most of Western Europe but not the UK in the Warsaw Pact.

Ireland starts to flirt with WP membership...
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Zero

>> Consider the position if the Cold War had been different and we'd ended up with
>> most of Western Europe but not the UK in the Warsaw Pact.
>>
>> Ireland starts to flirt with WP membership...

It would only have been different if Germany had won the war, and Yes Ireland would have been an Ally of Germany for sure.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Bromptonaut
>> It would only have been different if Germany had won the war

I wasn't trying to construct an alternative factual argument as to HOW Ireland might have been potentially a member of a defence treaty opposed to NATO; just the possibility it might have been.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Zero
>> >> It would only have been different if Germany had won the war
>>
>> I wasn't trying to construct an alternative factual argument as to HOW Ireland might have
>> been potentially a member of a defence treaty opposed to NATO; just the possibility it
>> might have been.

It was a ridiculous premise, utterly dependent on a different WW2 outcome,
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
If NATO had been explicit that any Membership would be a long and difficult haul
>> then I suspect we'd not be where we are now.

Please explain.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Lygonos
Isn't Putin is trying now to munch along the Black Sea shore to reach Moldova?

Or will NATO grade artillery make that a no-go?
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Zero
>> Isn't Putin is trying now to munch along the Black Sea shore to reach Moldova?
>>
>> Or will NATO grade artillery make that a no-go?

He needs to take Odessa. If he gets close I think Nato will intercede.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Terry
If NATO intercede on Ukrainian territory it will be seen by Putin as an explicit attack on Russia. So I expect NATO support to be limited to (possibly) ever more sophisticated weapons.

These are quite capable of taking out shipping at a range of hundreds of miles.

Putin may have a much longer term goal of access from the Black Sea to the Mediterranean which threatens Turkey - possibly why Erdogan is somewhat in appeasement mode.

But Putin will be very aware that NATO equipment (and I suspect personnel) are far superior to his. Increased troop deployment on the eastern border of NATO may dissuade him from attack.

There is still speculation about Putin health. Were he in good order he may be expected to demonstrate this - ride a horse, climb a mountain, shoot a bear etc as in the past. Limited current images show a man who is evidently unwell. Hopefully terminally!
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - sooty123
Putin may have a much longer term goal of access from the Black Sea to
>> the Mediterranean which threatens Turkey - possibly why Erdogan is somewhat in appeasement mode.

Very unlikely the Russians could force access to the Med. The turks have closed it to military vessels I believe.
 Ukraine - Volume 5 - Dog
There is a part of Moldova called Transnistria, which is an unrecognised breakaway state that already has a Russian military presence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

Moldova isn't a NATO member, so article 5 doesn't come into the equation.
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - Manatee
Informative interview with somebody from Royal United Services Institute, about 40 minutes in to this programme -

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0018t27/bbc-news-bbc-news-at-9-30062022
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - CGNorwich
Another point of view


Ex-Formula One boss Bernie Ecclestone has described Vladimir Putin as a "first-class person" who is doing something he believes is right for Russia.

The two men have known each other for several years, and reportedly became friends after Russia was first given the opportunity to host an F1 Grand Prix in 2014.

Asked on ITV's Good Morning Britain if he still regards Putin as a friend, Ecclestone says: "I'd still take a bullet for him."

The 91-year-old, who was chief executive of F1 until 2017, went on to say he thought the war could have been avoided if Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky had taken different actions, commenting on how Zelensky used to be a comedian.

"I think he seems as if he wants to continue that profession," Ecclestone says, "because I think if he'd have thought about things, he would have definitely made a big enough effort to speak to Mr Putin, who is a sensible person and would have listened to him, and could have probably done something about it."


 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - Zero

>> Asked on ITV's Good Morning Britain if he still regards Putin as a friend, Ecclestone
>> says: "I'd still take a bullet for him."

Lets hope someone obliges.

Might be Lewis Hamilton after he also commented about Nelson Piquets "N-Word" podcast

Ecclestone said he was "surprised Lewis hasn't just brushed it aside,
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - Manatee
Another reason why billionaires should not exist.

Ecclestone is the commercial equivalent of Boris Johnson, the highest compliment I can pay him. Possibly even more like Trump although he seems a bit brighter - nothing matters but the deal, and he has used half-truths, lies, and coercion to get what he wants.

Moseley sold him 100 years of commercial rights to F1 for about £200m IIRC, practically a give away.

Obviously he's reached an age and position where he can say and do whatever he likes.
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - CGNorwich
It is strange isn’t it how people can take such what seems such completely perverse view of a situation. I assume he really believes what he says, much as Trump’s followers really believe he won the election. What people want to believe simply overpowers the evidence of their own eyes and rational thought.
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - tyrednemotional
>> Asked on ITV's Good Morning Britain if he still regards Putin as a friend, Ecclestone
>> says: "I'd still take a bullet for him."
>>
...I bet Vlad didn't reciprocate....
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - Robin O'Reliant
Bernie has also been quite complimentary about Adolf Hitler in the past.

When you think about it though, all three of them are short 'arrises so it could be a case of collective Short Man Syndrome.
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - Zero
>> Bernie has also been quite complimentary about Adolf Hitler in the past.

Well he was friends with Max Mosely

>> When you think about it though, all three of them are short 'arrises so it
>> could be a case of collective Short Man Syndrome.

Yeah, how many 6'.2" Tyrants, dictators or despots in history
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
I knew one but he was our Geography master, not History. Was also fond of lobbing missiles at anyone he thought wasn't paying him enough attention.
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - CGNorwich
Peter the Great, idi Amin?

Most tyrants and dictators have in fact been around average height for the age they lived in.
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - CGNorwich
And our own worst ever tyrant, Henry VIII was over 6 feet.
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - Zero
The really successful ones are tho


Kim Il-Sung 5’7/175 cm

Adolf Hitler 5’7/175 cm

Josip Broz Tito 5’6/170 cm

Kim Jong-Un 5’6/170 cm

Benito Mussolini 5,5/169 cm

Josef Stalin 5’4/165 cm

Vladimir Lenin 5’4/165 cm

Emperor Hirohito 5’4/165 cm

Francisco Franco 5’3/163 cm

Kim Jong-Il 5’3/160 cm>>
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - sooty123
I always thought stalin was much taller than that.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Zero
>> I always thought stalin was much taller than that.
>>

He wore built up shoes.
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - CGNorwich
The most successful tyrants of all time, Genghis Khan was described by his conspirators as tall.

Julius Caesar, perpetrator of one of Europe’s greatest genocides was a tall man. On the other hand Churchill was shorter than Hitler.

I don’t think the short man syndrome thesis has legs, at least not long ones.


 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - Zero
>> The most successful tyrants of all time, Genghis Khan was described by his conspirators as
>> tall.

Well they would wouldn't they. "Hey Geng, you short rse". was not a phrase guaranteeing you lifetime longevity.

>> Julius Caesar, perpetrator of one of Europe’s greatest genocides was a tall man.

5' 7" apparently.

Napoleon - 5' 5"
 The Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
The Pentagon has received proposals from 800 US companies to use Ukraine as a testbed for 1300 items of new military kit in development.

I wonder what tasty stuff is in that lot (that they won't get)?
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - sooty123
I see the Russians are now reduced to recruiting from prisons, such are the losses the wagner group have suffered.

The American long range missiles seem to be having an impact, particularly on Russian supply and ammunition stores. I would expect Russia's advantage in artillery to be reduced.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
>I see the Russians are now reduced to recruiting from prisons,..

About a month ago they started offering folks found 'guilty' of an offence a choice of prison or a reduced term in the army.

I guess the take-up must have been lower than they expected.

On another note - the Ruskies have shipped missile systems into southern Belarus and overnight on Sunday were flying an A-50 (AWACS) up and down the Belarus border with (as yet unidentified) fighter aircraft.

This is after Zelensky told his Chief of Defence to do whatever is necessary to kick Russian forces out of south Ukraine.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
>The American long range missiles seem to be having an impact,..

A member of the Ukrainian Defence and Security Committee let slip today that they are close to agreement with the US to supply longer range missiles for the HIMARS systems they received.
The missiles they currently have are limited to a range of 70km but the longer range stuff extends that to 300km. That would put the whole of Crimea and the Crimean Bridge within range.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
An opposition group in Belarus has reported that this afternoon S-300 missile systems along with missile transporters are being moved to Brest on the border with Poland.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Manatee
Is Russia building up forces there that they need to protect? These are defensive missiles, right?
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Zero
Russia is running short on ordinance, so is using them in a ground to ground scenario, in this role they are very inaccurate.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Duncan
An ordinance is a municipal or county law. Ordnance is a mass noun referring to military materials such as weapons, ammunition, equipment, and vehicles.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - tyrednemotional
...welcome back....

(I think!)
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - sooty123
>> Is Russia building up forces there that they need to protect? These are defensive missiles,
>> right?
>>

They are surface to air missiles, they use them as ballistic missiles. Highly inaccurate, but they only have a small stock pile.

The only thing s300 is good for is anti aircraft role and the ukr airforce isn't likely to be conducting that sort of mission.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Manatee
Ah, right. I gather Ukraine had quite a lot of these too, with which they have downed quite a lot of Russian aircraft.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - sooty123
>> Ah, right. I gather Ukraine had quite a lot of these too, with which they
>> have downed quite a lot of Russian aircraft.
>>

Hard to say how many they have really destroyed, i think they claim in the hundreds. I don't think it's likely, more like 100 or so. With what missile i don't know. I know they use them against Russian ballistic missiles with a reasonable success rate.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
Claimed

219 Planes
188 Helicopters
681 UAVs
109 Anti-Aircraft systems

37870 personnel, 1667 tanks, 3852 armoured vehicles, 840 artillery, 247 MLRS, 15 navy vessels, 67 'Special' (dozers, support vehicles).
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
>.. but they only have a small stock pile.

It looks like things are getting desperate for the Russian military.

Putin has signed a 'special measures' order. It makes it illegal for companies to refuse or delay public procurement or State Defence orders and gives authorities 'legal regulation of labour relations in certain organisations' allowing them to dictate working hours.

Another part of the order allows 'temporary' mobilisation.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - sooty123
Reports (unconfirmed) that the weight of Russian artillery is down by a significant amount. Primarily down to destruction of artillery depots in rear areas from NATO weapons.

Without the depots they'll have to truck shells in from their railheads.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
Ukraine claims to have destroyed more than 30 Russian ammunition depots in the past couple of weeks and say that the Ruskies are already trucking shells directly from Russian territory to the frontline.

I haven't found any official daily tally of shelling intensity but you can get some idea by running through the timeline on NASA's fire monitoring images if you take weather into account.

firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#t:adv;d:2022-07-08..2022-07-09;@34.8,48.2,6z
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - zippy
>>
>> firms.modaps.eosdis.nasa.gov/map/#t:adv;d:2022-07-08..2022-07-09;@34.8,48.2,6z
>>

It's amazing that stuff like this is in the public domain a mere 100 years ago it would have seem like magic. I suspect they can see someone light up a cigarette with the military stuff.

Goodness knows what the next 100 will bring.
 The Ukraine - Equipment Losses - Kevin
Lists of known equipment losses for Russia and Ukraine that have been taken from images in the public domain. Total losses for both will undoubtedly be higher. Image links included.

An old Alvis and 10 Saxons on the UKR list.

www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-ukrainian.html
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - sooty123
edition.cnn.com/2022/07/29/europe/russia-recruits-volunteer-battalions-ukraine-war-cmd-intl/index.html

Russian troop casualties become acute.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
I guess that any volunteers that sign up aren't aware of what's been reported by one of the Russian news organisations that fled after they introduced jail terms for non-compliant journalists.

Squadies who complete their tour are being forced to stay on the front line and if they try to leave are being 'persuaded' to return.

New recruits are on 'training' (probation) for their first full month so if they fail to complete it by getting themselves killed or injured during that time they get no pay or insurance payout.

Next of kin are being told that their men are simply missing and they are not entitled to any compensation without official confirmation of them being either killed or injured in action.

The promise of quick money might not be so attractive if they bothered to read the small print.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Zero

>> The promise of quick money might not be so attractive if they bothered to read
>> the small print.

Have you tried to read Cyrillic script?
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
>Have you tried to read Cyrillic script?

It's all Greek to me.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - sooty123
The UK is turning into a hub for training Ukrainian troops; Canadian, danish, kiwi, finnish and i think Australian are here assisting in training Ukrainian troops.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
A bit more chopper activity than usual here for the last few days so I guess there's a bit of practical stuff on Salisbury.

Satellite images of the airbase in Crimea that Ivan claims to have suffered an ammunition incident shows a helluva lot of damage and quite a few aircraft totally burnt out. Looks to be at least half a dozen that will need to be brushed into the gutter.
Reports from Belarus overnight that explosions were seen and heard at Zyabrovka airfield. It's where they've been bringing in and storing S-300 missile systems for the last 10 days or so.

Ukranian forces also seem to be better organised. They're taking out Russian logistics piece by piece choosing their targets for maximum impact with the least expenditure of the precision ammo they have available.

It looks like the 'training' is paying off.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Fullchat
I dont know the location but neighbours son was suppososedly attending Army cadet annual camp. Cancelled and re-located locally due to the barracks being now allocated to training of Ukranian troops.
Now of course that may not be totally accurate the implication is that there is some commitment and ramping up of training.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - zippy
www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2022/07/chief-of-the-general-staff-visits-ukrainian-training/

10,000 apparently - though I suspect not all at once!
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Terry
I assume that a lot of the training is for new weaponry being provided. No point in sending fancy guns, rockets, missiles, drones etc if they don't know which buttons to press.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Zero

>> Reports from Belarus overnight that explosions were seen and heard at Zyabrovka airfield. It's where
>> they've been bringing in and storing S-300 missile systems for the last 10 days or
>> so.


Belarus claims its another "accident".
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - CGNorwich
Health and safety leaves a lot to be desired in Belarus.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - sooty123
apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-world-news-st-petersburg-treatment-of-prisoners-f20273227cf4c4e65ba6f4866dc975ea

Russian recruitment woes continue.

Looks like it's one for the long term.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Kevin
Bellingcat say that they have obtained copies of a large number of complaints submitted to the Russian Prosecutors Office by residents of LPR and DNR.
The people that Putin claims needed his 'special operation' for protection are having their homes broken into and looted by Russian soldiers. In one case they used a tank to gain entry.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - bathtub tom
>>residents of LPR and DNR

If you're going to use 3LAs (three letter acronyms), will you please explain their meaning to as dumb folk?
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - sooty123
>> >>residents of LPR and DNR
>>
>> If you're going to use 3LAs (three letter acronyms), will you please explain their meaning
>> to as dumb folk?
>>

They are the names of the areas Russia occupies now in Eastern Ukraine.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhansk_People%27s_Republic

 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Zero
So where does Do Not Resuscitate come into it?

Talking of which, where is Duncan?
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 12 Aug 22 at 08:28
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Dog
>>where is Duncan?

Probably been walnut whipped.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - tyrednemotional
>>
>> Talking of which, where is Duncan?
>>

...are they open yet...?
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - smokie
I ate and drank last night at The Booking Office 'spoons on Waverley Bridge Edinburgh. First decent ale I've been able to find all week, and a main with a drink was not much more expensive than a toasted sandwich at the main comedy venues, which are mostly selling fancy lagers or IPAs (often at well over £6 a pint!).
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - Manatee
See if you can get to the Oxford Bar before you leave. 8 Young Street, at the Charlotte Square end just north of George St. Haven't been since May 2019, lovely pint of Caledonian Deuchers IIRC. Hope it survived COVID unchanged.
 Ukraine - Volume 6 - bathtub tom
>>Caledonian Deuchers

One of my favourites, probably the top!
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