I live in an estate with around 350 houses. Since it was built in the 80s the Council have cut the grass in all the communal areas but due to cutbacks they are not doing it anymore. Title deeds of all the houses explicitly state that all the homeowners are collectivley responsible for the upkeep of these areas (so Council should never have been doing it). But crucially, there is nothing in the deeds that states rules of appointing factors (some deeds you see have a rule that state that if the majortiy of householders want to appoint etc then everyone must comply but this clause isn't in our deeds.
So I am trying to arrange something but want it to be as pain free and as informal as possible. Have had a lot of feeback from residents that they are willing to chip in to get a contractor to do this.
1.Has anyone any experience of getting a factor appointed when there was nothing written into the deeds like in this case.
2. I would like to look at the possibility of keeping things informal ie homeowners chip into a central fund and we pay the contractor direct and save on factoring. Can anyone recommend a bank/ facility / a "way" of basically collecting a tenner a month that has as little admin as possible and also as little "hoops to jump through" as possible? Idea would be we all pay a tenner a month, pay the guy at end of month, and we start afresh the next month. Thinking even of things like Justgiving type online but realise they are for charities.
To summarise, looking for as easiest way as possible to collect £10 a month without having a couple hundred folk putting envelopes through my door or me chapping every door!
Any thoughts appreciated?
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I think it sounds like a complete headache. Dealing with that many people will be like herding cats.
If you're really keen, I'd look at the arrangement that flats use to collectively deal with shared maintenance issues.
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My daughter/s have an end terrace in a block of 11properties and then there is a facing block opposite also of 11. 22 in all. There is a grassed area with some trees and shrubs in between with walls and gates at either end. There is a communal garage area at one end. Its a sort of gated community.
They have a Residents Association which has a bank account and £50 is paid directly into the bank account annually. The Association has a Chair and Secretary etc. All the other formalities. It relies very much on goodwill. Money collection seems to require a few 'reminders'
It pays for front gutter cleaning every year and communal maintenance. They have a lawnmower and someone volunteers to cut the grass as and when.
Issue is that a lot of the properties are rentals with European tenants who aren't interested and there's no financial contribution but just expect someone else to pay and do the graft. It does get done sort of.
Obviously there is a difference in size in comparison but something like that might work except you may wish to formalise the grass cutting with a contractor.
As with all these types of things it needs someone with the enthusiasm to get it up and running and maintain some commitment. You may meet some apathy.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sat 12 Mar 22 at 13:50
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*may* meet some apathy, with 350 odd properties it's guaranteed.
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Getting 350 house to agree to anything is a problem - getting them to put hand in pocket will be a real pain to impossible.
A better approach may be via the council who have previously been cutting the grass etc. They at least have the ability to routinely collect money for council tax, and may even be able to add a surcharge to the existing bills.
It may also be worth investigating the responsibility of the council to maintain the estate.
I can understand their desire to save money, but I suspect they may have some legal obligations towards estates for which they have given planning permission. The original developer may also have been deficient in failing to establish the basis upon which the grass cutting would be funded.
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Have the roads been adopted or are they classed as private? If they were adopted then I would have thought they have responsibility for the 'public' areas.
But as you say if its written into the Deeds then maybe its an avenue LAs are going down to trim some responsibilities and expense.
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The term "nightmare" is overused in relation to irritating problems but this could be one.
Everybody is responsible, so nobody is.
I used to live in one of a development of 17 houses in which the shared road/drive was unadopted and the residents were jointly responsible for the central grassed areas. The land was held in trust by the residents, in effect the trustees were whoever the residents elected to look after it.
When the retired copper who collected £40 or so annually from each household decided he'd done it long enough, nobody wanted to do it. In the end I and one of the others said we'd share it. The money was used for an annual service and occasional replacement of a motor mower, plus public liability insurance in case of of the trees should fall on somebody. There was a rota for grass cutting so each householder had to do it once a year. It mostly worked, but I'd say a couple of dozen houses is probably the maximum for this sort of arrangement. At one point there was a problem with the drains and I had the painful job of sorting out and collecting the contributions. Fortunately I got it sorted for a few hundred quid but if it had been a few thousand I think it would have been tricky. (the legislation in this area has now changed and it wouldn't be so bad if the same thig happened again).
One of the problems was that whoever takes on the organising tends to be a target for whingers. One of them knocked on my door and said that No. 6's kids kept kicking their football around and it was hitting their car. Could I do something about it? Answer "Go and complain to No. 6".
This sort of thing is going to be a growing problem. There are more and more new developments round here where the roads are not adopted. They set up companies and purchasers contract up front to annual payments that they can't really control. The reason the roads are unadopted is that the developer doesn't lay them to the required standard and they are basically block paving in some areas.
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Cheers for feedback so far
I will try and look into the Residents Association “Model” to see what’s involved. The principle of something like that is probably what we are thinking.
Have had 3 years of discussions/ fights / research with the Council. Roads etc are adopted but these communal areas never were. Reality is the homeowners have had 40 years of free grass cutting.
Agree re collecting the money will be a pain and need to see how that is done. I am of the opinion that if the money is low enough then folks won’t be too demanding. So a tenner might cover 3 months. Most folk aren’t going to be wanting contracts in blood for the sake of handing over a tenner. And if everything works out for first 3 months and they see it working then the second tenner could be easier to get.
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>> I am of the opinion that if the money is low enough then
>> folks won’t be too demanding. So a tenner might cover 3 months. Most folk aren’t
>> going to be wanting contracts in blood for the sake of handing over a tenner.
I wish you luick.
You will very probably find that the more money an individual has the less willing they are to hand over money. I had some - secondhand - experience of residents in one of the most expensive roads in Surrey who would almost go to court rather than pay a communal charge.
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Direct Debit is the future.
I would imagine getting money from 350 households would be like herding cats. Of course trying the legal route as its written in the Deeds is a non starter.
Perhaps a sweetener such as tear ending surplus cash be donated to a local charity.
As Duncan alludes to. People can be selfish, first to complain about the state of the place but reluctant to make any contribution. Someone else's problem.
I live in a block paved cul-de-sac of 6 properties with the houses running along on side and at the end. It has a strip of random trees down the other side. The council do come and cut the grass occasionally. A road sweeper makes the odd random visit. The Parish Council cut back the trees last year as they were starting to outgrow their environment (organised be me)
I sometimes run my strimmer along the edge and a couple of runs with the lawnmower to tidy it up. I have a petrol blower and blow all the leaves off the verge to stop them killing the grass. The odd spray with weed killer in areas of the block paving where weeds seem to thrive. There's also a box hedge about 20M long that runs from my hedge onto the public area (legacy from the lands previous owner). That needs a cut a couple of times a year. It is leaning and will collapse forward if it gets bigger. The odd bit of litter picked up and large pieces of dead branches deposited after storms on the road cleared away. Thing is no one else ever lifts a finger. Daft lad does it. I know i should leave it but it keeps it looking reasonable. The only time I've seen a communal efforts are when we have heavy snow and snow clearing springs into action.
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'Affordable' housing then? :/
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 13 Mar 22 at 11:34
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Rather than try all 350 properties, it may be easier to break the task into smaller chunks - I assume this is possible as (perhaps) individual cul-de-sacs for instance.
It will be evident which have had the sense/decency to get something sorted - and those whose drives are obscured by foliage.
It is unclear whether the the deeds identify individual individual bits of land with individual households, or whether it is just that the "occupiers in general" will maintain "all the common areas".
If the latter, one option is just let it grow. Folk will start complaining in droves to the council. The council will be unable to pursue all 350 for a contribution. They may reluctantly decide it would be less hassle to carry on cutting the grass anyway.
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>> Folk will start complaining in droves to the council. The council will be unable to pursue all >>350 for a contribution. They may reluctantly decide it would be less hassle to carry on cutting >>the grass anyway.
That made me smile. Have you not had much dealing with councils? It's my experience that they will ignore something they don't want to deal with and in most cases it will go away.
As a council employee, it wasn't until we had a date for an industrial tribunal before they folded.
UNISON were no use whatsoever and appeared to be complicit with the council's side.
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All deeds have the exact same wording. The communal areas are responsibility of all residents to maintain.
Have been at loggerheads with Council for last 2 years. It is not their job to do it so due to the constraints they are under, they won’t. And I fully understand that, why should they cut our grass for nothing when the next estate have to pay a factor to do theirs?
On the subject of bank accounts, anyone any experience of Starling or Monzo. Are they simple to set up (in my name ) and easy to close down if need be.
Looks like the vast majority of residents would want to pay by bank Transfer. Anyone got accounts with either of these and can let me know how easy they are to use and especially how easy it is to see where credits have came from? Can you export to excel in some way?
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I use both Starling and Monzo but not much. They are easy toi use in the app but then so is NatWest. I don't know of they are the same but I use Revolut more, and that is a pre-pay card and as such isn't accepted by some places.
And for something like this I'd think you want a "proper" bank account with two signatories, if for no reason other than to protect yourself against accusations of fraud at some later stage. Proper statements and transparency.
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I think Smokie is right….350 houses each paying a tenner, even every few months, is a lot of money even if only half of people cough up. I suspect the ‘correct’ way of doing it is a management company or residents association with its own bank account and an agreed remit, run by a few of the residents on an elected or nominated basis. Circulate a summary every year of income and expenditure. How you put this in place retrospectively, especially after so long, is another matter - someone posted further up about splitting it into smaller areas which, if you want to keep it informal, would seem a good solution. 20 small groups of 15 might give more ‘ownership’ to residents, and each could then just sort out a rota amongst themselves?
Also, without being a killjoy you do need to figure out who actually owns the common land; if you start maintaining all of it and someone’s injured or has an accident, do you have or need public liability cover? We used to own a house in a small development, but with a private ‘green’ in the centre. We paid £200 a year from memory for the maintenance of that, along with hedge cutting in common areas, and that included a public liability policy being in place as well. Even with 14 houses a little chasing of payments was required…350 houses is a different level of pain, though as you say at £10 perhaps it’ll be easier…
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The plan here is if we get a tenner from everyone, that lets us get the grass cut fortnightly over next 3 months whilst we do all the formal stuff of committees etc.
We have exhausted all avenues re the communal areas. We know what’s what with regards to the fact it is communal ownership and responsibility.
Re these bank accounts Smokie, is it easy to see individual credits and who they are from? Can I export to a spreadsheet and have then showing as individual entries?
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My revolut account lets me download statements in pdf or excel format and they look like any other bank statement, with individual transaction level detail. I do that through a web browser, not the app though. I’d suggest that you ask people to put their number and road name as the reference to make it easy to tick off payments.
Last edited by: PeterS on Mon 14 Mar 22 at 12:53
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I see so many problems and pifallls arising with this plan. I would definitely seek some legal and accounting advice before proceeding.
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CGN. Yip there are that’s why we are trying it for a quarter at the cost of £10 and taking a risk. If it all goes breasts up then we have lost a tenner ( except we won’t actually cos money will be safe, it will just be my, and a couple of others, times that have been wasted).
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One problem I foresee is opening a bank account. You presumably do not intend putting the money in an account in your name an indeed you should not use a personal account for that purpose . You would need to open an account in the name of group and it would need to be the sort of account specifically designed for clubs and associations. The banks would certainly want to see paperwork as to how the association was constituted.
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I would initially be looking to open one of the above type accounts in my name only for the intial tenner for the 3 months.
As mentioned I cannot open an account in the name of a committe that has not been formed or an association that doesnt have a Constitution etc. By the time all that happens we will be mid summer and the grass will be 2 foot long.
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Yes you can export transactions to a pdf, or csv file (the latter for import into Excel).
You can see individual credits and payments but as per above, a reference would enable you to more readily identify who a payment belongs to.
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Lots of useful ideas emerging. I quite like the idea of splitting up the areas into smaller domains but that would only work if people were going to get their own lawnmowers out.
The public liability and insurance aspect is an issue that had not crossed my mind. Interesting thought as to what would happen at this point if someone did have a claim, where would you start?
Have you considered a mailshot explaining the situation and possible ways forward. Maybe invite suggestions? Maybe a bit of a residents committee? Definately more than one signatory for transparency or just don't take any fancy holidays :) Perhaps a Whatsapp group / Neighbourhood watch type thing. Of course you will get a few telling you how it should be done but actually doing sod all themselves.
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If you were volunteering to cut communal grass area with your own lawnmower you would probably have cover under your house insurance - it might be "limited cover" of a few £million but that would be sufficient IMHO
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So we have a residents FB page though not everyone is on it or on FB. Last year when the grass had remained uncut all season a group of us got together and cut it with strimmers and mowers. I spent two full days with a huge strimmer in the process.
This year we have decided that although that worked well as a one off, it’s not fair or sustainable. Plenty of folk at the time offered their wheelie bins, offered money for the petrol and donated juice and snacks but physically not able to help actual cutting.
So as detailed above this is a plan that may or may not work. It is the equivalent of the guys round the pub chucking into a kitty to buy their pints but on a bigger scale. I get that you automatically think committee’s, legal advice, financial, signatories etc but for this initial trial I want to avoid that otherwise a. Who pays for all that advice and b. We will still be discussing this when winter sets in.
At this moment it is £10 commitment and hopefully peer pressure will ensure majority will pay. I am not going to waste time on those that won’t. I am taking a slight risk as the account will be in my name only but I am pretty savvy with spreadsheets and will be transparent. Again it’s the tenner commitment. Both my wife and I have been in the estate for nearly 30 years and am well known and, I think, trusted enough. If not, they know where I live ! :)
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I'm sure you are a pillar of virtue Bobby but I wouldn't risk being the sole signature. People can show their true colours when money is involved.
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Even for the initial tenner? Would plan to move to proper account etc after that but would I be able to set up a joint account with one of the above online providers as easy?
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>> I'm sure you are a pillar of virtue Bobby but I wouldn't risk being the
>> sole signature. People can show their true colours when money is involved.
True, and out of 350 there will be at least one. But I do take Bobby's point about the bureaucracy.
You might find that as a "responsible person" some of them think you will do other stuff. E.g.
"the bulb's gone in the street lamp", "17 Harry Lauder Avenue has painted his windows brown in breach of the covenant", "the drains are blocked" followed by "can you have a word/sort it out". Work out in advance what you are going to say when this happens. Mine was "I suggest you do whatever it is you think I could do. I just organise the mowing and collect the money".
The brown windows one is real. It was a conservation area and nobody was supposed to change the colour.
Do keep us entertained with your experiences Bobby! Incidentally, when you report the finances you will have to decide whether to identify the houses/people who haven't paid. We did actually have one who never paid and said he didn't care whether the grass got cut or not. We just ignored him, as we couldn't practically do anything else.
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"said he didn't care whether the grass got cut or not. "
Ah yes, that reminds me of where I live a couple of years ago where the council decided to not cut some of the larger verges and a central strip along a residential spine road, I believe mainly as a cost cutting measure.
Cue massive outrage from many about how untidy it made the town look but a very significant and vocal minority who insisted that they should leave it alone for "wilding". The council did eventually cut most of it, once in the season i think.
So I guess you'll need to mark out a proportionately sized area to appease those who don't want it cut. :-)
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I love "Harry Lauder Avenue". Little Tich Crescent as well, perhaps? Gus Elen Way?
Sorry everyone, as you were.
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Good point about 'wild planting'. Can look really good and a habitat for wildlife.
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"Bank" / Collecting money advice & Ground Factors - sooty123
