Non-motoring > Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12   [Read only]
Thread Author: VxFan	Replies: 154

New Fri 12 Nov 21 02:49   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - VxFan

***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 13 ***** Ongoing debate. Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 11 Dec 21 at 21:24

New Tue 9 Nov 21 10:19   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - sooty123

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282 I'm surprised that the government have brought this in. I thought it would be a fight they would avoid, clearly not. I wonder how many nhs staff will end up leaving?

New Tue 9 Nov 21 10:38   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut

>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282 >> >> I'm surprised that the government have brought this in. I thought it would be a >> fight they would avoid, clearly not. I wonder how many nhs staff will end up >> leaving? Seems to me there are two questions though no doubt it gets more complex at detail level. 1. What is the quantifiable clinical gain from vaccination either in reducing infectivity or reducing absenteeism 2. Is the gain one worth the cost in terms of staff goodwill and possible union action. I suspect how it plays in the media might be on the government's card too.

New Tue 9 Nov 21 11:06   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Zero

If governments require proof of booster jab, its not as straightforward as the booster does not show on your downloadable covid pass letter or barcode. It appears as a general immunisation (like your flu jab) on your doctors medical record. Last edited by: Zero on Tue 9 Nov 21 at 11:08

New Tue 9 Nov 21 11:44   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Duncan

>> Seems to me there are two questions though no doubt it gets more complex at >> detail level. >> >> 1. What is the quantifiable clinical gain from vaccination either in reducing infectivity or reducing >> absenteeism >> >> 2. Is the gain one worth the cost in terms of staff goodwill and possible >> union action. There is the third question. 3. Why are so many NHS staff not taking the jabs?

New Tue 9 Nov 21 12:02   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>>3. Why are so many NHS staff not taking the jabs? I don't really understand why so many people, never mind NHS staff, are not taking the jabs. But when we say "NHS Staff" do we mean medical staff or do we mean Admin, porters & cleaners? i rather suspect the latter. Also the most militant also.

New Tue 9 Nov 21 12:41   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - sooty123

> >> There is the third question. >> >> 3. Why are so many NHS staff not taking the jabs? >> Same reasons as the rest of the population i would imagine.

New Tue 9 Nov 21 11:58   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>>1. What is the quantifiable clinical gain from vaccination either in reducing infectivity or reducing absenteeism I don't know about effectivity, but one assumes that if reduces the amount of sneezing then it has an impact. Surely with regard to absenteeism there can be little doubt? If it is reducing hospitalisation then less nurses, for example, will get hospitalised and therefore less absent from work. >>2. Is the gain one worth the cost in terms of staff goodwill and possible union action. I think the NHS, and it's staff, are getting above themselves. The NHS is better than no NHS, of that I have no doubt. I live a lot in countries without an NHS and it's always bad. But the NHS is actually not very good beyond that. It is the philosophy which is good, not the implementation. And bear in mind I have made extensive use of the US, Brazilian, Chilean and UK health systems with occasional dalliances in others. Health care outside the UK is 100% always a better customer care experience. And that is of significant importance. Convenience is one thing, but lack of stress for ill people is another. Customer care in the UK NHS system is crap. I generalise, of course. There are very many very good people working in the NHS, but not most of them. It was only a few years ago when one of mine was in hospital that I ended up caring for (changing, comforting etc) a small child in the bed opposite mine. The response of the nurses? "It's our job to treat them, not care for them. We're not his mother". They also did an excellent job of almost killing my child (no exaggeration) because they didn't want to do another operation that evening. Admittedly they had had a bad day. My impression is that the actual medical care is pretty good once you get to the treatment, though I am no expert.. But everything surrounding it is s***. From the admin to the care. All this s***e about the NHS being the best in the world is just that, s***e. It's underfunded, badly run and over-impressed with it's own excellence. It's given political targets and unwarranted media praise. So "possible union action" to me immediately makes me long for the NHS "Miners" moment. And "staff goodwill"?? They're not doing anybody any favours, it's their job. I have no sympathy. Get the damn jab.

New Tue 9 Nov 21 12:12   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Lygonos

We spend 10-15% less on Healtcare than France and Germany. Tens of thousands of posts are unfilled. Management are hamstrung by stupid targets (and not being the best). Govt has invested in PFI rather than capital resources. There is no Miners' moment that works in the Govt's favour (we didn't need UK coal in the 80s - it was a no lose situation for Thatcher). I agree everyone should be vaccinated or suffer restrictions according to science (ie additional potential harm by not being vaccinated).

New Tue 9 Nov 21 12:43   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Terry

Some interesting analysis on healthcare around the world. The UK spends a very average amount of GDP overall - but much less than US. Also of note is the extent to which healthcare is public funded vs insurance vs contributions from patients. The UK is amongst the highest publically funded through taxation. tinyurl.com/4d55txyr (link shortened that takes you to www.ons.gov.uk) Personally I have had to make extensive use of the NHS over the years. Mostly staffed by the decent, well intentioned and often very able. But they do not embrace change, seeing threats to their status quo rather than an opportunity to provide a better service to their patients. The philosophy "free at the point of use" is great but it now provides a fairly average service compared to other obvious comparators. It does not seem just related to funding, but how the funding is used, how services are integrated (eg: social care and NHS), community support, personal contributions, quality of management etc. Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 12 Nov 21 at 02:55

New Tue 9 Nov 21 12:44   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>> We spend 10-15% less on Healtcare than France and Germany. And what we do spend does not seem to be spent well. To be honest I am surprised the difference is only 10 - 15%. I guess the impact is cumulative. >> Tens of thousands of posts are unfilled. Years of under investment relying on foreign recruitment and then making the country unattractive to them. >> Management are hamstrung by stupid targets (and not being the best). "stupid" is not a big enough world. Ludicrous gets closer. And as for not being the best, in my experience the whole management structure is an absolute bag of bolts. >> Govt has invested in PFI rather than capital resources. Government has invested in what suits them and re-election spin, rather than any realk good. >> There is no Miners' moment that works in the Govt's favour (we didn't need UK coal in the 80s - it was a no lose situation for Thatcher). I don't want anything to work in the Government's favour. Nor in the unions. I'd rather it worked in favour of the customers. >> I agree everyone should be vaccinated or suffer restrictions according to science (ie additional potential harm by not being vaccinated). I don't really understand the reluctance, I suspect that it is not the medical staff.

New Tue 9 Nov 21 12:50   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - zippy

The NHS have been underfunded and mismanaged for decades. This is not the fault of the staff. Many give over and above their contracted hours. A good friend had a stroke in Florida and came away with a USD 500k bill, luckily he was insured but many are not. I know what system I prefer.

New Tue 9 Nov 21 13:11   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R

>> The NHS have been underfunded and mismanaged for decades. Agreed. For ever, probably. >> I know what system I prefer. The system or approach? Clearly the NHS, as I said. As I said above; "The NHS is better than no NHS, of that I have no doubt. I live a lot in countries without an NHS and it's always bad. But the NHS is actually not very good beyond that. It is the philosophy which is good, not the implementation."

New Tue 9 Nov 21 21:25   Just had a Pfizer - Manatee

Pfizer booster today, on top of 2 x AZ in Feb & May. So far, so good apart from sore arm. I hadn't been to a big vaccination centre before, got my first two at a pharmacy. Big effort, lots of staff. Half a dozen or more check in desks and probably a dozen jabbing booths. Stuff the anti-vaxxers, I'm having all the protection I can get.

New Wed 10 Nov 21 17:54   Just had a Pfizer - martin aston

I had the Moderna booster today. The only problem was it took an hour and twenty minutes to go through the large vaccine centre in Salisbury. The main issue seemed to be lack of space between stages so that people couldn’t actually be brought forward to be dealt with. So there was a lot of idle time for the staff. The volunteers kept apologising but it wasn’t their fault. Hopefully just teething problems with the volume of boosters. As ever the NHS people and volunteers themselves were brilliant.

New Wed 10 Nov 21 19:25   Just had a Pfizer - smokie

Went to a local pharmacy today for my booster appt. We'd been refused walk-in flu jabs elsewhere at eth weekend cos it was within 2 weeks of booster appt. The pharmacy today were OK with doing both, they said either they should be done together or should be at least a week apart. We were out before SWMBOs appt time, having had both plus a sit down for 10 mins. So far, no ill effects for either of us apart from slightly sore arm on flu side (her not me). Last edited by: smokie on Wed 10 Nov 21 at 19:25

New Thu 11 Nov 21 15:41   Just had a Pfizer - Zero

Sent to me - Kinda sums it up really I'm fully vaccinated and, no, I don't know what's in it - neither this vaccine, the ones I had as a child, nor in the Big Mac, or hot dogs, or other treatments…whether it's for cancer, AIDS, the one for polyarthritis, or vaccines for infants or children. I also don't know what's in Ibuprofen, Paracetamol, or other meds, it just cures my headaches & my pains. I don't know what's in the ink for tattoos, vaping, Botox and fillers, or every ingredient in my soap or shampoo or even deodorants. I don’t know the long term effect of mobile phone use or whether or not that restaurant I just ate at REALLY used clean foods and washed their hands. In short ... There's a lot of things I don't know and never will… I just know one thing: life is short, very short, and I still want to do something other than just going to work every day or staying locked in my home. I still want to travel and hug people without fear and find a little feeling of life "before". As a child and as an adult I've been vaccinated for mumps, measles, polio, chickenpox, and quite a few others; my parents and I trusted the science and never had to suffer through or transmit any of the said diseases and, I'm vaccinated, not to please the government but: * To not die from Covid-19. * To NOT clutter a hospital bed if I get sick. * To hug my loved ones * To Not have to do PCR or antigenic tests to go to a restaurant, go on holidays and many more things to come ... * To live my life. * To see and hug my family and friends * For Covid-19 to be an old memory. * To protect us.       1

New Thu 11 Nov 21 16:03   Just had a Pfizer - zippy

>>I'm vaccinated, not to please the government but:.... Hear, hear!

New Thu 11 Nov 21 19:17   For anyone thinking twice about the booster - smokie

Interesting chart showing reversal of the waning effect in vaccines. Twitter... twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1458870266981986314?s=21

New Thu 11 Nov 21 22:08   For anyone thinking twice about the booster - sherlock47

Must be true, it is on Twitter. Alternative interpretations are possible. How about there are a decreasing number of over 70s left?

New Thu 11 Nov 21 22:32   For anyone thinking twice about the booster - bathtub tom

>> How about there are a decreasing number of over 70s left? That could be bad news for this forum.

New Thu 11 Nov 21 23:48   For anyone thinking twice about the booster - smokie

Well it's apparently based on ONS data, where would you like your data from? Just because it's on Twitter doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong either. Of course other interpretations are possible, the bloke on Twitter says that in an earlier (maybe later) post, and I'm sure everyone here is quite used to stuff like this being challenged, but for me I'd say the conclusion that boosters have helped seems not unreasonable on the face of it, and I thought it might be of interest to others.

New Fri 12 Nov 21 09:02   For anyone thinking twice about the booster - Zero

Its all reedin obvious init? Anyone would think we are getting out boosters for the benefit of our health.

New Fri 12 Nov 21 01:39   For anyone thinking twice about the booster - No FM2R

>> Alternative interpretations are possible. As it said in Tiwtter.... Now, let's not jump to conclusions. Could be anything. Literally anything that's been recently applied to the oldest cohorts only and is incredibly effective in stopping cases vs the unvaccinated."

New Fri 19 Nov 21 12:51   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

I see Austria is going into full lock down from Monday and making vaccinations compulsory from 01st Feb. I don't quite grasp the logic of making it compulsory three months from now rather than actually now..

New Fri 19 Nov 21 13:16   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - tyrednemotional

...not wanting to swamp the vaccination centres at one go?... (Much would depend on how any legal requirement were worded, and the sanctions associated with it, but, given limited capacity it would seem sensible to give some notice).

New Fri 19 Nov 21 16:34   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - smokie

Yes, they may not have the resource or vaccine to do it any quicker

New Fri 19 Nov 21 17:03   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

Would you not expect them to make it compulsory now with a three month tolerance window? How will they address someone on the 01st Feb who is not vaccinated and can prove he had no option to do it that day. They can't say he should have done it previously, because it wasn't compulsory previously. Still, don't care much, just seems an unusual approach.

New Fri 19 Nov 21 18:49   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Terry

Giving a period to allow people to get jabbed seems sensible. What is unclear are the sanctions to be applied - fine, arrest, imprisonment, denial of access to some or most services and facilities etc. OTOH - let folk make their own decisions - in a UK context make it clear that routine elective treatment takes priority over unvaccinated numpties however pressing their need may be.

New Mon 22 Nov 21 10:30   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - BiggerBadderDave

Had my booster at 4pm on Saturday and everything was all ok until about 10pm. Saturday night was hell, I couldn't turn over without something hurting somewhere. I fell like I'd done 12 rounds with a heavyweight. Even the light hurt my head. Sunday wasn't pleasant but not so bad. Back to normal today. Small price to stay alive for another year.

New Mon 22 Nov 21 12:14   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Manatee

>>Small price to stay alive for another year. The odds are you would have stayed alive anyway, as I'm sure you know. Anti-vaxxers never tire of pointing this out as if it makes them rational. Personal freedom is one thing, but when they dissuade others from getting jabbed, they are literally killing people and I have no patience with them. Make vaccination mandatory for those who aren't prepared to stay at home. A friend used a nice analogy. Parachutes occasionally fail and kill people, with extreme rarity, just as vaccination does. But you wouldn't insist on jumping out of a plane without one. I've just booked a holiday to Austria next September. With luck they'll be on top of it by then and I'll be able to go. My living has been on hold, as my life has been ticking away, since April 2019 when we had the house fire; followed by a pandemic the year after and being fully occupied building the new house. As my plan to live forever almost certainly won't work, I'd quite like to get on with it. People who by their actions prolong the pandemic are the enemy.

New Mon 22 Nov 21 14:26   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Runfer D'Hills

>>...and everything was all ok until about 10pm. Saturday night was hell, I couldn't turn over without something hurting somewhere. I fell like I'd done 12 rounds with a heavyweight. Even the light hurt my head. Sunday wasn't pleasant but not so bad. Back to normal today. I'm sure many of us have had the occasional weekend like that... ;-)

New Mon 22 Nov 21 18:22   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Terry

Interesting take on covid report on BBC: www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59378548 Comment by German health minister - "By the end of this winter everyone in Germany will either be vaccinated, recovered or dead" As true for us as them. Both vaccinated - I have just had covid (heavy cold symptoms for a few days), wife had moderate temperature - like mild flu. I know the symtoms vary but this is what living with it means.

New Mon 22 Nov 21 19:02   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin

New Mon 22 Nov 21 19:10   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

I'd like to leave them in the gutter, but given that we treat the lung patients who smoke and the wilfully obese, to name but two, we probably can't. However, all my life I have paid increased insurance premiums because of the sports I pursue - a lifestyle choice, essentially. I see no reason why the unvaccinated should not be similarly penalised.

New Mon 22 Nov 21 19:36   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - zippy

Unless you take it to the nth degree, some with self inflicted illnesses, nowadays harm only themselves. (By nth degree I guess in exceptional circumstances, they could be denying someone else an operation.) The unvaccinated could potentially harm others. Sportspeople could cause rescuers to put themselves at risk.

New Tue 23 Nov 21 10:59   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - James Loveless

An attempt to deconstruct the mind-set and thought-processes of (some) anti-vaxxers: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/20/how-do-you-argue-with-anti-vaxxers-who-believe-theyre-on-a-noble-mission

New Fri 26 Nov 21 14:08   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - zippy

Just had my booster, Pfizer this time. No ill effects save for a slightly hard lump around the injection point and a very mild tingle / ache in the same area. On the advice of the (really kind) lady who jabbed me, I took two paracetamols when I got home. I had to go to a separate booth with a bed for the jab as my epi-pen had expired and they were being ultra cautious.

New Fri 26 Nov 21 17:17   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - BiggerBadderDave

"No ill effects save for a slightly hard lump" Pretty nurse was it?

New Fri 26 Nov 21 17:31   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

Not *very* pretty, it was only "slightly"

New Fri 26 Nov 21 18:13   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - BiggerBadderDave

Could be an age thing. His, not hers...

New Fri 26 Nov 21 18:18   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - zippy

Oh you wags! :-D

New Fri 26 Nov 21 18:17   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Manatee

>>On the advice of the (really kind) lady who jabbed me, I took two paracetamols when I got home. I was told to get my paracetamol in early, and I was OK the following day. I should have taken some more before I got up on the day after that, I felt rubbish. I had AZ for the previous ones.

New Fri 26 Nov 21 20:23   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Terry

99.99% of side effects from the vaccine are completely trivial by comparison to the the real virus. Ache in the arm, small lumps, slight temparature for 24hrs - stop making a fuss.

New Fri 26 Nov 21 21:12   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Manatee

>> 99.99% of side effects from the vaccine are completely trivial by comparison to the the >> real virus. Ache in the arm, small lumps, slight temparature for 24hrs - stop making >> a fuss. I completely agree, no complaints here but if I can help somebody avoid feeling carp I will. I don't call it a side effect. It's a reaction, which is how vaccines generally work.

New Sat 27 Nov 21 12:37   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Bromptonaut

Had my booster ad midday today - Moderna. Slight soreness in the arm and I've been briefed about taking Paracetamol if there are any headache/fever type symptoms.

New Sat 27 Nov 21 12:50   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - sooty123

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59442141 Non hysterical report.

New Sat 27 Nov 21 15:06   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Robin O'Reliant

>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59442141 >> >> Non hysterical report. >> The original reports did strike me a gleeful media hysteria.

New Sat 27 Nov 21 16:15   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - legacylad

According to local news, as of 1st December, U.K. residents can only enter Spain if fully vaccinated. I’ve no idea what the situation is if , for medical reasons, you are unable to be legitimately vaccinated. I think the U.K. should do the same....not allow anyone, from anywhere, in who isn’t fully vaccinated. We’ve enough selfish pig ignorant unvaccinated t***s taking up valuable hospital beds as it is. And don’t ask me what I’d do with them.... Vote for me I’m your choice, I wanna be elected A. Cooper esq.

New Sat 27 Nov 21 16:26   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - smokie

Surely you'd have a proviso that if the vaccination was over x months old a booster was also a pre- req? :-)

New Sat 27 Nov 21 16:36   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - legacylad

Hopefully. When I return mid February I’ll have been boosted

New Sun 28 Nov 21 00:03   Merck Molnupiravir - smokie

This was one of two pills the govt has bought into. This particular one was produced by Merck, and was bought into largely on the back of a press release by Merck which said they had decided to stop the Phase III trial as the drug had proved itself so well. As I mentioned in another thread, Merck have now released the full results of the trials and the drug's efficacy has gone down from 50% to 30%. That isn't good news really, and they may well get booted off the Govt programme. www.merck.com/news/merck-and-ridgeback-biotherapeutics-provide-update-on-results-from-move-out-study-of-molnupiravir-an-investigational-oral-antiviral-medicine-in-at-risk-adults-with-mild-to-moderate-covid-19/ Molnupiravir works by mutating the COVID spike protein to make it ineffective, and previously a related drug caused mutation in normal cells in pregnant rats, so that was considered a possibility with this drug by some, so if it goes, it's probably for the best - though we really need something alongside the vaccines.

New Sun 28 Nov 21 09:36   Merck Molnupiravir - Lygonos

There will likely be no magic antiviral (which won't stop our moron-in-charge-of-health spaffing hundreds of millions stockpiling them - see Tamiflu for precedents). They may offer some modest benefit to survival (and hopefully long term morbidity) but it will be modest: by the time you know you have Covid it is likely to have been multiplying happily for days. Steroids still appear to be the best treatment, other than full vaccination, despite the "oooo look we had to stop our trial early (and thus hide any long term data) cos our wonder drug is a wonder drug" Pharma guff releases. Have a nosey at latest NICE guidance - latest evaluated treatments and evidence from around page 78. None are 'magic bullets' www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng191/resources/fully-accessible-version-of-the-guideline-pdf-pdf-51035553326

New Sun 28 Nov 21 10:18   Merck Molnupiravir - smokie

Interesting, thanks :-)

New Sun 28 Nov 21 12:02   Merck Molnupiravir - Lygonos

If the omicron variant turns out to be a rather mild version, but easily transmitted, it may effectively be nature's own vaccine. Here's hoping at least!

New Sun 28 Nov 21 12:18   Merck Molnupiravir - smokie

That's a good point! There is one SA doc who has been saying it is generally mild, in youngsters at least.

New Sun 28 Nov 21 13:04   Merck Molnupiravir - Robin O'Reliant

The doctor who first discovered the new variant has just been interviewed on BBC News and says the effects on people have been "Extremely mild".

New Sun 28 Nov 21 13:17   Merck Molnupiravir - Kevin

>If the omicron variant turns out to be a rather mild version, but easily transmitted, it >may effectively be nature's own vaccine. That won't sell newspapers.

New Sun 28 Nov 21 13:28   Merck Molnupiravir - No FM2R

>> >If the omicron variant turns out to be a rather mild version, but easily transmitted, >> it >> >may effectively be nature's own vaccine. >> >> That won't sell newspapers. >> It would give the media s***e a challenge On the one hand they will want to scream from the heavens that a saviour has arrived, but on the other it means the death knell for their rolling ball of fear and sensationalism.

New Sun 28 Nov 21 13:47   Merck Molnupiravir - Manatee

Looking on the bright side, it could mutate further into something lethal while retaining its infective power, so restoring its value in the world of clickbaiting.

New Tue 30 Nov 21 16:40   Merck Molnupiravir - smokie

Merck have just finished giving evidence to a full day meeting of the US FDA in pursuit of getting and Emergency Use Approval for Molnupiravir. They slightly played down the fact that it didn't really show much of an improvement in the second half of the trial (i.e. after they announced how good it was an governments flocked to buy it) but the stuff about malformations in rats has been talked about. I don't really see how a govt could approve this for widespread use. The meeting is still live at www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=fR9FNSJT64M if anyone is interested but it's pretty dull really.

New Wed 1 Dec 21 00:01   Merck Molnupiravir - smokie

The Merck meeting ended a short time ago. There had been plenty of questions around the trials, and also the drawbacks with the drug. The Merck bloke was floundering at points and really didn't come across too well. However they voted to recommend the Merck pill gets Emergency Usage Authorisation by 13 - 10. That is pretty close really and to me indicates a reasonable level of doubt about whether the drug is safe.

New Tue 30 Nov 21 23:12   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

Greece to fine over-60s who refuse Covid-19 vaccine (EUR100 per month) www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59474808 Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 30 Nov 21 at 23:13

New Tue 30 Nov 21 23:48   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Terry

The UK has a bizarre approach to Covid which promotes or allows all the wrong behaviours. If individuals report covid they need to isolate and potentially lose income (depending on job). So many with mild infections don't even test for the virus - better to be ignorant than inconvenienced. They switch off the track and trace app to avoid being pinged. There is no obligation to get vaccinated which puts the well being of others at risk. Regulations and legislation is created around mask wearing. There is a penalty for offending but inadequately policed, and even if fined the cost is trivial. We have a government which seeks to back both horses - claiming they have implemented restrictions and safeguards, but sufficiently compromised that they can be perceived as not too onerous. I regard myself as tolerably sensible, law abiding, responsible etc. Yet I find myself having contemplated all the bad behaviours. Vaccinated and boosted, I developed a heavy cold (runny nose, eyes watering). However had a winter beak booked in Spain. So decided not to risk a lateral flow test. Wife also developed some symptoms with a moderate temperature. Would have been unable to travel anyway so did a LFT which proved positive. I did likewise. Followed by positive PCR. Reorganised flights, car hire, apartment rental. Needed to complete Spainish passenger locator form. Wife being honest owned up to covid a few days earlier. Arrived in Spain, through passport control after 11/2 hours, then stopped by heallth team and taken to doctor. Fortunately I had the foresight to get a "fit to fly" test at Boots the previous day and were fortunately invited to stay. The temptation was to lie on the passenger locator form. Do Spanish immigration systems interface with UK testing to expose this - I haven't a clue. Fortunately all a non-issue - but our month or two in the sun was seriously compromised by being honest.

New Wed 1 Dec 21 00:56   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - James Loveless

"... our month or two in the sun was seriously compromised by being honest." No, it wasn't. It was seriously compromised because you and your wife unfortunately had a health problem. To argue otherwise is warped morality.

New Wed 1 Dec 21 06:43   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - legacylad

If you’re on the C Blanca you’ve arrived at the right time. It’s been unseasonably cooler and damper from mid October through November, but normal service was resumed a week ago. Terry...check out our website, CB Mountain Walkers, which lists our comprehensive walks programme for all abilities, and please join us if you are in the area.

New Wed 1 Dec 21 07:21   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Duncan

>> If you’re on the C Blanca you’ve arrived at the right time. LL, you have just missed Alistair Campbell tramping through your back garden. A good watch. www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0012290

New Wed 1 Dec 21 09:22   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - legacylad

Duncan....thanks but I didn’t. Connected my pad to the TV in the rental apartment and watched it on ‘catch up’. A few days previously watched an episode from the first series. Knew it all like the back of my hand....regular walks I take from my back door, overly dramatic I thought....oooh declined a 150’ uphill walk into the murk on a wide path ....but an enjoyable programme none the less. Like A Campbell I find walking very therapeutic ...good for body and soul, especially in these times, and I’m sure we all occasionally reminisce about loved ones we’ve lost, and there’s no better place to do so than being outside in beautiful surroundings no matter what the weather.

New Wed 1 Dec 21 09:37   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Zero

>> Like A Campbell I find walking very therapeutic ...good for body and soul, especially in >> these times, and I’m sure we all occasionally reminisce about loved ones we’ve lost, and >> there’s no better place to do so than being outside in beautiful surroundings no matter >> what the weather. I can assure you, standing on an English hillside in cold horizontal rain, I am not reminiscing or thinking good thoughts.

New Wed 1 Dec 21 11:42   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - legacylad

>> I can assure you, standing on an English hillside in cold horizontal rain, I am >> not reminiscing or thinking good thoughts. >> Typical soft southern pussy :-) Hope ur doing ok Z

New Wed 1 Dec 21 11:54   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

>>Typical soft southern pussy 1 out of 4. He's not typical.

New Wed 1 Dec 21 12:10   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

>> >>Typical soft southern pussy EDIT: 3 out of 4. He's not typical. Dammit.

New Wed 1 Dec 21 13:05   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Terry

>> Terry...check out our website, CB Mountain Walkers, which lists our comprehensive walks programme for all abilities, and please join us if you are in the area. >> Sadly not - Nerja about 40 miles east of Malaga. Although not a serious walker (as you seem to be) but a real pleasure to be outside with mostly blue sky and sunshine, temp typically 16-20C. Covid last year excepted we try to spend 10-12 weeks out here over the winter period - beats cold, drizzle - also get an extra hour or more of dayight each day!

New Wed 1 Dec 21 08:19   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Dog

Just as well I'm not greasy!

New Thu 9 Dec 21 17:50   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - smokie

"Austria's conservative-led government has announced plans to make Covid-19 vaccinations compulsory. "The order, which must be approved by parliament, is due to take effect from February and will apply to everyone aged 14 and over. Those who continue to refuse to take the vaccine will be fined €3,600 (£3,077, $4,071) every three months." Somewhere down this page - www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-59590486?

New Thu 9 Dec 21 18:16   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

I don't have any moral or emotional reason why vaccines should not be forced upoin people, but there is a logistical difficulty. You fine someone, they refuse to pay, you fine them more, they still refuse to pay, you send them to prison and they still refuse to pay. What do you do? Leave them in prison forever? Someone is living on the breadline, barely ably to survive. What do you do, increase their benefits so that they can pay? Or put them in prison forever? That's a situation they may regret creating. Better to think of inconveniences - like no pubs, cinema, gatherings, weekly testing, etc. etc. Irritate TF out of them until getting the vaccine just becomes easier.

New Thu 9 Dec 21 18:19   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Zero

>> I don't have any moral or emotional reason why vaccines should not be forced upoin >> people, but there is a logistical difficulty. There is no logistical issues. Your vaccinations give you a covid passport. No covid passport, no entry into anywhere where other people are. Including Hospital when you get covid.

New Thu 9 Dec 21 18:26   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

I didn't explain clearly, that was in fact my point. It is not making vaccines compulsory that I think is wrong, it is making the penalty a fine that is the mistake.

New Thu 9 Dec 21 18:33   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Zero

>> I didn't explain clearly, that was in fact my point. It is not making vaccines >> compulsory that I think is wrong, it is making the penalty a fine that is >> the mistake. Agreed, its difficult and expensive to enforce and prosecute. Its very easy to exclude, and a real PITA for those excluded.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 14:03   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - neiltoo

I am firmly of the opinion that vaxx passports for everywhere people meet indoors anywhere are essential. However what does the team think of this?- it is reported the 90% of ICU patients are unvaccinated. At least 75% of the population are twice jabbed, some boosted, meaning that the unvaccinated are massively over represented in ICU. ICU wards are full, and Covid patients occupy beds for far longer than recovering surgical patients, meaning major surgery operations are being delayed, causing consequential bad outcomes. A large proportion of Covid ICU patients die anyway. Should non vaccinated Covid patients be denied ICU treatment?

New Fri 10 Dec 21 14:09   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Robin O'Reliant

>> I >> >> Should non vaccinated Covid patients be denied ICU treatment? >> Smokers, drinkers, drug users, motorcyclists, rock climbers, the overweight, etc etc etc?

New Fri 10 Dec 21 20:31   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Zero

>> >> I >> >> >> >> Should non vaccinated Covid patients be denied ICU treatment? >> >> >> >> Smokers, drinkers, drug users, motorcyclists, rock climbers, the overweight, etc etc etc? They are not offered vaccinations to prevent ICU admission.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 14:11   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

>>Should non vaccinated Covid patients be denied ICU treatment? Someone (Bromp I think) raised the following very valid point; What do you then do about others who are similarly irresponsible or uncaring of their own health resulting in a need for ICU treatment? Smokers, drinkers, obese people, dangerous sports people, attempted suicide etc. etc. etc. ? Surely you would need to deny them also? I think the passport is the way. You don't have to be vaccinated (or recovered, or properly medically exempt) but if you're not then you can't go to the cinema, a sports match, a concert, a shopping mall, an airport, a train, etc. etc. Anything else is unmanageable and almost certainly inconsistent.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 14:12   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Bromptonaut

>> Should non vaccinated Covid patients be denied ICU treatment? No. Wouldn't pass the Hippocratic oath test for starters.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 14:30   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Duncan

>> No. Wouldn't pass the Hippocratic oath test for starters. >> How many medical professionals nowadays actually take the Hippocratic oath?

New Fri 10 Dec 21 14:49   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

>> >> >> No. Wouldn't pass the Hippocratic oath test for starters. >> >> >> >> How many medical professionals nowadays actually take the Hippocratic oath? The Hippocratic Oath forbids abortion, I think. And information abut child abuse, for example, could not be reported. So it's already a bit selective.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 14:58   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Bromptonaut

>> The Hippocratic Oath forbids abortion, I think. And information abut child abuse, for example, could >> not be reported. So it's already a bit selective. OK, in view of this post and Duncan's let me put it a different way. Refusing ICU care to the unvaccinated would undoubtedly contravene medical ethics and would also engage rights under the European Convention.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 15:03   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

>> contravene medical ethics Which matters, I think >>would also engage rights under the European Convention. That can be changed, though shouldn't be in this case.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 20:14   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Duncan

>> Refusing ICU care to the unvaccinated would undoubtedly contravene medical ethics and would also engage >> rights under the European Convention. >> I imagine that it would not be refusing medical care to the unvaccinated, rather refusal of admission to sports events or concerts etc.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 20:29   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Zero

>> >> Refusing ICU care to the unvaccinated would undoubtedly contravene medical ethics and would also >> engage >> >> rights under the European Convention. I don't see why it would, they were offered medical care in the form of a vaccination. they have refused it, and hence refused medical care.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 21:01   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Bromptonaut

>> I don't see why it would, they were offered medical care in the form of >> a vaccination. they have refused it, and hence refused medical care. It doesn't work like that.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 21:03   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

What happens if a Jehovah's Witness refuses a blood transfusion and subsequently dies? Do they have to sign some form of indemnity form or similar?

New Fri 10 Dec 21 21:12   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Zero

>> What happens if a Jehovah's Witness refuses a blood transfusion and subsequently dies? Do they >> have to sign some form of indemnity form or similar? Some non blood alternatives are available. If blood products are required, and refused, they die. Strangely they can accept bone marrow transplants.

New Sat 11 Dec 21 10:04   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Bromptonaut

>> What happens if a Jehovah's Witness refuses a blood transfusion and subsequently dies? Do they >> have to sign some form of indemnity form or similar? They may well have some form of living will/advance declaration in place. If the procedure is one were they WILL die without a transfusion then presumably the treatment won't happen. If it's something like hip surgery where blood loss may indicate a transfusion then they'll have the same consents to sign as anybody else. Those include the risks and the consequence of declining a transfusion can be included. Informed consent.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 21:08   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Zero

>> >> I don't see why it would, they were offered medical care in the form >> of >> >> a vaccination. they have refused it, and hence refused medical care. >> >> It doesn't work like that. It can - there is no reason why it cant.

New Sat 11 Dec 21 09:56   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Bromptonaut

>> It can - there is no reason why it cant. I beg to differ. We've already identified medical ethics and ECHR rights. There's also a media/political angle. If somebody's photogenic and loveable relative who's portrayed as having made a bit of a mistake by refusing the vaccine is left to die the political shootstorm would be non survivable. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 11 Dec 21 at 09:57

New Fri 10 Dec 21 16:27   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - henry k

>> >> No. Wouldn't pass the Hippocratic oath test for starters. >> >> How many medical professionals nowadays actually take the Hippocratic oath? On the stage at the Royal Albert Hall, on behalf of most graduating medical students from St Marys and Imperial Medical schools, our daughter give a promise ( not the Hipocratic oath ) I have no idea what happens at similar events That was about 20 years ago.

New Fri 10 Dec 21 14:42   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - sooty123

>> I am firmly of the opinion that vaxx passports for everywhere people meet indoors anywhere >> are essential. >> I'm not so sure, countries that have them don't always have low rates of infections. Some do, some don't. >> Should non vaccinated Covid patients be denied ICU treatment? >> No, people are allowed to make bad choices.       1

New Fri 10 Dec 21 20:32   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Zero

>> Should non vaccinated Covid patients be denied ICU treatment? Yes. They have refused medical care (vaccination)

New Wed 1 Dec 21 17:50   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

Ursula von der Leyen says that compulsory vaccination within the EU must be discussed along with how it may possibly be implemented. The noose is tightening around the throats of refuse-niks, thickos and tin hat conspiracy theorists. And about time. Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 1 Dec 21 at 17:51

New Wed 1 Dec 21 18:24   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - sooty123

the EU must be discussed along >> with how it may possibly be implemented. >> > I think they'll plenty of talk, how much firm action is anyone's guess. I think in some places in the EU they'll struggle. I see they've backed off in parts of overseas France, I know they aren't in mainland France but I wouldn't be surprised if it were replicated in certain parts of the EU. www.france24.com/en/france/20211201-france-sends-police-reinforcements-to-martinique-to-quell-covid-unrest

New Wed 1 Dec 21 18:40   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - smokie

I read earlier that unvaxed Greek 60+ year olds will have to pay €100 a month towards their health service. May not be true of course.

New Wed 1 Dec 21 18:56   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

Goodness knows where you could have read that. www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=29439&m=639278&v=e

New Wed 1 Dec 21 20:34   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Bromptonaut

>> I think they'll plenty of talk, how much firm action is anyone's guess. I think >> in some places in the EU they'll struggle. If UK was still in EU then I think UK would be one such place. I also thin there are serious human rights issues with compulsory medication with Convention Rights infringed.

New Wed 1 Dec 21 21:32   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Robin O'Reliant

>> >> >> If UK was still in EU then I think UK would be one such place. >> I also thin there are serious human rights issues with compulsory medication with Convention Rights infringed. >> I agree, and I think compulsion would lead to serious civil unrest.

New Sat 4 Dec 21 22:51   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

>> I also thin there are serious human rights issues with compulsory medication with Convention Rights infringed. >> Screw their rights. Make vaccination compulsory. Doctors and nurses vent anger as unvaccinated Covid cases delay vital operations Shaun Lintern Saturday December 04 2021, 6.00pm GMT, The Sunday Times The NHS has a backlog of 5.8 million waiting for surgery and specialists are increasingly frustrated at how the unjabbed have left them unable to tackle it While the success of the vaccination rollout has reduced the overall impact of Covid-19 on hospitals, intensive care clinicians from across England have spoken out over the continuing pressure they are under Doctors and nurses have told of their anger and frustration at not being able to treat seriously ill patients as new figures show that more than 90 per cent of Covid sufferers requiring the most specialist care are unvaccinated. While the success of the vaccination rollout has reduced the overall impact of Covid-19 on hospitals, intensive care clinicians from across England have spoken out over the continuing pressure they are under. Between 20 per cent and 30 per cent of critical care beds in England are occupied by Covid patients and three quarters of those have not been vaccinated, according to the latest data up to July this year. Separately, NHS England said that between July and November more than nine in 10 patients receiving the most specialist care, in which artificial lungs were used to try to save their lives, were unvaccinated. This is undermining efforts to reduce the backlog of surgeries and the overall NHS waiting list, which had grown to 5.8 million people by the end of September. Doctors have warned that some transplant operations cannot go ahead and that complex cancer surgeries are being delayed, risking tumours becoming inoperable. Nicki Credland, chairman of the British Association of Critical Care Nurses, said: “All nurses understand they have to provide non-judgmental care. But what we find difficult is that giving care to patients who have chosen not to be vaccinated has a knock-on effect on other patients. We are still human beings and we still get angry at things that we think aren’t just. “It does take a toll on nurses and I am also hearing from nurses up and down the country about some patients who are being rude, disrespectful and even violent to some nurses trying to look after them.” She said this was behind high levels of mental health problems in ICU nurses, who are already reporting increased levels of post-traumatic stress after their experiences of the past two years. Dr Dhruv Parekh, a consultant in critical care at the University Hospitals Birmingham trust, which has Europe’s largest critical care unit with 100 intensive care beds across a whole floor of the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, said: “When you can’t provide the services you feel you need to for the rest of your community and other patients who’ve got life-limiting illnesses, there is a degree of frustration and anger. This is stopping us from doing that really important work and helping the rest of the patients we need to be trying to help.” The 43-year-old said that it was “infuriating and frustrating” to see patients die when their deaths could have been prevented. “It’s heartbreaking and upsetting because ultimately, when that happens, for the patient and the family, the realisation this potentially could have been prevented dawns. Dr Dhruv Parekh said that Covid patients had a significantly longer length of stay in critical care than other patients “It’s painful to see that happen and painful to see families go through the anguish and also the guilt that they will feel. It’s something that we will all carry psychologically for years and years to come.” Parekh said that Covid patients had a significantly longer length of stay in critical care than other patients, with an average of nine days; longer if they survived the infection. In his unit he said this meant that as many as 100 to 140 other surgeries, which would require stays of only one or two days, had to be delayed each week. “These are transplants that can’t go ahead. These are patients waiting for complex cancer surgery where every week counts. It could tip them over from an operable cancer to an inoperable cancer,” he said. Between July and November, NHS England said that 150 patients were referred for extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, or Ecmo, where blood is cycled through an artificial lung machine before returning it to the body. Of these patients, only 6 per cent had been fully vaccinated. The treatment is usually reserved for younger patients and is a last-ditch effort to buy their bodies time to recover from the virus. In total 46.5 million people in the UK have had two doses of Covid-19 vaccine, equivalent to 80 per cent of the population. Almost 20 million have had a third dose, or a booster, just over a third of the population. Ministers have pledged to ramp up the booster programme owing to the threat of the Omicron variant, with all eligible adults offered a booster by the end of January. The proportion of unvaccinated patients varies between hospitals around the country. In the West Midlands, leaked NHS data shows that out of 17 ICUs that submitted data to NHS England, 11 had more unvaccinated than vaccinated patients in ICU with Covid, although the numbers will be small. Three hospitals reported that all the patients in ICU with Covid were unvaccinated: the Royal Derby, Kettering General and the Pilgrim Hospital, Boston, Lincolnshire. Dr Steve Mathieu, from the UK’s Intensive Care Society and a consultant in critical care, said: “One in two Covid-19 patients who require ICU and ventilatory support will die. This is a really important message because we know the vaccines work and there are very few diseases that carry such a high mortality rate.” He said that staff in ICUs across the country were emotionally drained. “We are used to being busy, but at the moment we’re dealing with a disease that actually is preventable and seeing patients die that shouldn’t is really awful for all of us.” He urged people who had yet to get vaccinated to do so, saying: “This is not just about yourself, this is about your family, this is about other people. These are decisions that can be made that will affect the ability for someone else to have life-changing treatment.” Dr Charlotte Summers, professor of intensive care medicine at the University of Cambridge, said: “What we often forget in our emotional reactions is that there’s a structural problem within the NHS. We went into the pandemic with less critical care beds per head of population than almost anywhere in Europe. So we had less resources to start with and then we have had a series of policy decisions made in the UK that are allowing high levels of viral transmission, both of which are combining to put stress on the NHS. None of that is the fault of patients ending up in our ICUs.” She said that the impact of bed pressures on ICU departments in the NHS and the subsequent cancellations for other patients had a “huge impact” on nurses and doctors. But she added that there was an issue of trust between some communities and some in positions of authority during the pandemic that had undermined public health messaging on vaccination. Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 10 Dec 21 at 02:49

New Thu 2 Dec 21 00:22   How the virus works - smokie

Maybe no-one will find this interesting but I did :-). A team are trying to work out the detailed working of the virus. www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/01/science/coronavirus-aerosol-simulation.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

New Fri 3 Dec 21 17:51   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Zero

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59524527 Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 3 Dec 21 at 19:49

New Fri 3 Dec 21 19:45   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - legacylad

As of midnight 4/ December, and all 15 provinces vary, here in Valencia to gain access to indoor hospitality with space for over 50 persons, you need to show proof of full vaccination together with photo ID. My walking group has a Xmas party Monday night ( I won’t be attending...Class 1 pussy ) and we’ve been reminded of the new entry regs. Whether it will be policed I don’t know, but I fully expect the Guardia Civil to enter a few premises and check your credentials. Imagine that in the UK. Bring it on. Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 3 Dec 21 at 19:49

New Sat 4 Dec 21 12:28   Liquorice - smokie

Iran claim to have had have had some success with a mixture which includes liquorice! www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.11.20.21266229v2 Quick, buy shares in Bertie Basset!!

New Sat 4 Dec 21 12:43   Liquorice - henry k

>> Iran claim to have had have had some success with a mixture which includes liquorice! >> >> Quick, buy shares in Bertie Basset!! >> Or loo rolls ? www.nhs.uk/common-health-questions/food-and-diet/can-eating-too-much-black-liquorice-be-bad-for-you/

New Sat 4 Dec 21 12:48   Liquorice - Zero

I did read of someone who was poisoned by an addiction to liqourice.

New Sat 4 Dec 21 13:25   Liquorice - No FM2R

>> I did read of someone who was poisoned by an addiction to liqourice. >> www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/man-dies-after-addiction-to-licorice-caused-his-heart-to-stop/news-story/f4fce2867fd53e06443293988dde0bc3

New Sat 4 Dec 21 14:07   Liquorice - henry k

>> >> I did read of someone who was poisoned by an addiction to liqourice. >> I found a good source of soft liqourice at Lakeland but then found out the hidden problem.

New Sun 5 Dec 21 16:11   Liquorice - Boxsterboy

Mrs BB and I had a very pleasant long weekend in Copenhagen with friends last weekend, and obviously filled out a passenger locator form on our return. On Friday all our group received a text from ‘NHStrace’ which we all assumed to be a scam because it wasn’t ‘NHS Trace’ or even ‘NHS Test and Trace’ and the link it asked you to follow had an equally suspicious spelling. The text was saying we ‘must isolate’ until we had a negative PCR test unless we were exempt. I received a reminder today and decided to follow the instructions. Well, blow me down, it was legitimate, despite the poor spelling and dodgy link. Having put in my details it thankfully confirmed that i did not need to isolate but ‘should’ (not ‘must’) take a PCR, so I followed that link to be told that I ‘didn’t qualify’ for a PCR. All very confusing for me with a ‘reasonable’ level of education so goodness knows how the great unwashed are supposed to understand it! In the feedback section I suggested that they might want to reword their communications!

New Tue 7 Dec 21 12:43   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - sooty123

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-59523439 An article on people who refuse the vaccine. I think it would have been better if they'd have asked what people like to see to convince them to have it?

New Tue 7 Dec 21 17:49   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Terry

If they are not convinced by now, any further advice, guidance, scare tactics etc is likely to reinforce the view that it is all a conspiracy. The stick needs to be deployed - prioritise other critical treatment (cancer etc) over the unvaccinated, no foreign travel, no job if employer decides vaccination is mandatory, no sick pay, no new universal credit. The sensible bulk of society should not be disrupted or inconvenienced by the stupidity of others.

New Tue 7 Dec 21 19:46   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Bromptonaut

>> If they are not convinced by now, any further advice, guidance, scare tactics etc is >> likely to reinforce the view that it is all a conspiracy. >> >> The stick needs to be deployed - prioritise other critical treatment (cancer etc) over the >> unvaccinated, no foreign travel, no job if employer decides vaccination is mandatory, no sick pay, >> no new universal credit. The refusers are not by any means all conspiracy nut jobs. Plenty of them have real and, at least to them, justified concerns about the vaccines. They don't grasp the numbers and probability around side effects; they have other health conditions; they have an honest belief that the vaccines have been rushed to market too quickly. Hitting them with a stick doesn't help. Sackings by employers need to be lawful. Statutory Sick Pay (less than £100/week) is a legal right but employers who offer a contractual top up might justify amending contracts so that's not payable if you get Covid and are without good reason for being vaccinated. Benefit rules already allow for those leaving work without good reason to be sanctioned. I've dealt with a couple of refusers dismissed from care homes, I've warned them that sanctions might happen. No reports I'm aware of where they've actually been sanctioned. Opinions on adviser forums vary from sanctions being at least a real possibility to being so remote the risk can be dismissed. Easy to say no new claims but you should partners or children go cold/hungry over the real worries (or even pig headedness) of one person on the rest of the household? Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 7 Dec 21 at 19:47

New Tue 7 Dec 21 20:19   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

>>The refusers are not by any means all conspiracy nut jobs. True that. Some of them are just thick.       1

New Tue 7 Dec 21 20:20   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - No FM2R

>> should partners or children go cold/hungry over the real worries (or even pig headedness) of one person on the rest of the household? The children should be taken away, this is as a minimum neglect. The partner, as an adult, should make their own choice and accept and live with the consequences. I'm properly over the LCD stuff. Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 7 Dec 21 at 20:21

New Tue 7 Dec 21 22:12   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Fullchat

Was captivated by the presentation given at the Richard Dimbleby Lecture by Professor Dame Sarah Gilbert. Explained the development of the vaccine and issues they were faced with along with potential future issues.       1

New Wed 8 Dec 21 00:22   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - James Loveless

I echo that. She is a very impressive lady. And how she answered questions puts politicians to shame - direct and succinct.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 01:32   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Lygonos

>>And how she answered questions puts politicians to shame - direct and succinct. That's the benefit of knowing what you are talking about.       2

New Wed 8 Dec 21 10:26   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Fullchat

Good point :) I was trying to ascertain if she was speaking with or without notes. Nothing was visible around the lectern nor were her eyes indicating she was reading prompts.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 10:51   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - James Loveless

My guess is that it was scripted - the presentation was too dense and fluent, and the sentences too structured for a speech from notes, I thought. A couple of fluffed pronunciations bears that out. If I'm wrong that puts her in the superhuman category. Last edited by: James Loveless on Wed 8 Dec 21 at 10:53

New Wed 8 Dec 21 11:03   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Bromptonaut

>> My guess is that it was scripted - the presentation was too dense and fluent, >> and the sentences too structured for a speech from notes, I thought. >> >> If I'm wrong that puts her in the superhuman category. She's a Professor who will have risen through the ranks of academia. I've only ever seen such folks speak extempore at Open Days etc but my impression is that doing so without notes and whilst moving around the lecture podium is a basic academic skill.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 11:35   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Zero

She will have made chunks and portions of that lecture on a weekly basis in various seminars and presentations.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 12:49   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Duncan

Yes, yes, but she is simply using her knowledge, experience and training to explain something. She doesn't have to, and is not trying to justify her action, or lack of action, about some matter in the past.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 13:12   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - sooty123

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-59573037 'He said initial data suggested Omicron did not make people sicker than the Delta and other strains. "If anything, the direction is towards less severity," he said.'

New Wed 8 Dec 21 13:17   Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 12 - Bromptonaut

>> 'He said initial data suggested Omicron did not make people sicker than the Delta and >> other strains. "If anything, the direction is towards less severity," he said.' Others suggest it has higher transmissibility with R rates well over one and cases doubling every couple of days. www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/08/omicron-covid-cases-doubling-every-two-to-three-days-in-uk-says-scientist Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 8 Dec 21 at 13:20

New Wed 8 Dec 21 14:32   Briefing This afternoon - DeeW

Looks like we are going into Plan B… vaccine passports for large gatherings, work from home if possible, mask mandate. Not sure how well it will be received after the party fiasco.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 15:17   Briefing This afternoon - Rudedog

Well the mask mandate hasn't really been taken up where I am in the shops, especially the supermarkets, I can't believe there are a new lot of exempt shoppers all of a sudden, seems to be the older person in Waitrose without any mask.... obviously the staff have been told not to say anything... my Waitrose had even gone as far as taking down all of their posters recommending them and had stopped filling up the hand-gel, it was only yesterday that they've put up two small posters saying it was now a requirement on the sliding doors which means they are only seen as the doors close!

New Wed 8 Dec 21 15:47   Briefing This afternoon - Zero

My experience is poles apart to yours. I would put mask wearing at about 80% or higher in our shops,

New Wed 8 Dec 21 15:59   Briefing This afternoon - neiltoo

Local Tesco this morning - at least 95%

New Wed 8 Dec 21 16:06   Briefing This afternoon - Rudedog

Unfortunately they've never employed security staff on the doors apart from when we were in lockdown, I suspect people would put them on if challenged but as there is nobody there they just go about their business.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 16:28   Briefing This afternoon - Bromptonaut

Barely 50% in Aldi yesterday. OK it's Aldi but the one on the edge of town and convenient for the west side villages.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 16:44   Briefing This afternoon - Bromptonaut

Wag on another forum refers to last years No 10 do as Schrodinger's party...

New Wed 8 Dec 21 17:29   Briefing This afternoon - bathtub tom

>> Barely 50% in Aldi yesterday. >> >> OK it's Aldi but the one on the edge of town and convenient for the >> west side villages. Stopped using ALDI last lockdown due to the lack of compliance, particularly by staff. Last edited by: bathtub tom on Wed 8 Dec 21 at 17:30

New Wed 8 Dec 21 17:08   Briefing This afternoon - Kevin

>Not sure how well it will be received after the party fiasco. Good distraction though.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 17:51   Briefing This afternoon - smokie

Talking of the party, did people see the JRM speech? www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGraSM21F5M Allegra Stratton has done the decent thing, I wonder if JRM will too? Disgusting bunch of people... and Boris is still denying it happened...

New Wed 8 Dec 21 17:58   Briefing This afternoon - Zero

www.facebook.com/spoofeduk/

New Wed 8 Dec 21 18:00   Briefing This afternoon - Zero

beggining to think this may be the end of Bojo

New Wed 8 Dec 21 18:02   Briefing This afternoon - Bromptonaut

>> beggining to think this may be the end of Bojo Trouble is the electorate who will decide his replacement. But then Liz Truss isn't even an amusing speaker.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 18:11   Briefing This afternoon - Zero

>> >> beggining to think this may be the end of Bojo >> >> Trouble is the electorate who will decide his replacement. And it seems like they think Bojo has crapped on them big time.

New Wed 8 Dec 21 18:04   Briefing This afternoon - smokie

I didn't consider it might be spoofed...

New Wed 8 Dec 21 22:08   Briefing This afternoon - Terry

I don't think Boris will last until the next election. He is rapidly losing back bench support and the far worse failings in the withdrawal from Afghanistan have yet to hit the fan. Rather than wait for electoral defeat to loom, the Tories will want new leadership within the next year to give his successor time (2+ years) to recover party fortunes. Timing - I suspect they will let Boris carry the can for the Covid failings following public enquiries - so probably next summer!

New Wed 8 Dec 21 22:24   Briefing This afternoon - Ted

I can't imagine that the Tories are the only mob to have a party last Christmas. Perhaps a few more grasses will come out of the woodwork and embarrass one or two other party leaders. Ted.       2

New Wed 8 Dec 21 23:13   Briefing This afternoon - Fullchat

Loyalty of cats.

New Thu 9 Dec 21 00:41   Briefing This afternoon - No FM2R

>>I can't imagine that the Tories are the only mob to have a party last Christmas And that sums up my dislike of party politics. The sanctimonious condemnation of the behaviour of others followed by the shameless defense of one's own behaviour, despite them being the same. Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 9 Dec 21 at 00:43

New Thu 9 Dec 21 08:14   Briefing This afternoon - Kevin

>I can't imagine that the Tories are the only mob to have a party last Christmas. It would be amusing to see Kay Burley grilling politicians about partying during lockdown.

New Thu 9 Dec 21 09:33   Briefing This afternoon - BiggerBadderDave

"It would be amusing to see Kay Burley grilling politicians about partying during lockdown." I seem to remember that Kay Burley played by the rules until she was so desperate that she nipped into a restaurant for a pee (something I'd loved to have seen) where she shouldn't have been. Her punishment? She got six months off and the viewers had to endure that irritating, stuttering Scottish bloke. And I don't think she's done a full 5-day week ever since. She's not on today, Scotty MacScottish-Face is back. I like my hot-stuff early in the morning. That's why I watch her show.

New Thu 9 Dec 21 08:28   Briefing This afternoon - Bromptonaut

>> I can't imagine that the Tories are the only mob to have a party last >> Christmas. >> >> Perhaps a few more grasses will come out of the woodwork and embarrass one or >> two other party leaders. >> >> Ted. If Starmer, Davey, Blackman/Sturgeon or whoever held parties then the political bush telegraph will know and it will out.

New Thu 9 Dec 21 08:56   Briefing This afternoon - Zero

Which party would you liek to be at? The greens? Liberals? Labour? Tories? I know which one I am headed to.       1

New Thu 9 Dec 21 09:09   Briefing This afternoon - Kevin

>Which party would you liek to be at? Monster Raving Looney thanks.       5

New Thu 9 Dec 21 18:11   Briefing This afternoon - No FM2R

I think we've already got them.