| Non-motoring > Air heating pumps | Green Issues |
| Thread Author: sooty123 | Replies: 26 |
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New Tue 19 Oct 21 19:05
Air heating pumps - sooty123
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-57159056 I see the government has made a big announcement about low carbon shift in the economy. I see the grant for new heating has come out again after the last one had a load of problems. Anyone tempted by this grant? |
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New Tue 19 Oct 21 19:14
Air heating pumps - Zero
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No, because my 1930's detached bungalow would end up with a bill of around £18-20k, and the place would be uninhabitable for about 3 weeks. Its a non starter. If I am still conscious by 2031, I shall throw another gas boiler in. |
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New Tue 19 Oct 21 22:16
Air heating pumps - henry k
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>> No, because my 1930's detached bungalow would end up with a bill of around £18-20k, >> and the place would be uninhabitable for about 3 weeks. >> Thanks for your quote. My 1930s semi would cost ?? I have got double glazing and a bit of loft insulation and some TRV4s and some LEDs and.............. nowt else I can recall. No cavitly in the walls just solid brick. All four upstairs and part of bedroom 3 walls are single brick No properly lined loft roof. Solar panels if installed ? Main roof areas are East and North. I have made a gesture cos I planted two trees and allowed a third to grow from a shoot to an large tree. Oh and my drive drains onto my site. >> Its a non starter. If I am still conscious by 2031, I shall throw another gas boiler in. I will follow your plan. I chose a boiler with a cast iron heat exchanger so it might outlast me . |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 06:51
Air heating pumps - sooty123
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>> No, because my 1930's detached bungalow would end up with a bill of around £18-20k, >> and the place would be uninhabitable for about 3 weeks. >> >> Its a non starter. If I am still conscious by 2031, I shall throw another >> gas boiler in. >> From what I've read they aren't cheap to run either. About the same in electricity as a gas boiler does now. Although they are very popular in Sweden/norway/denmark etc I assume they have lots of under floor heating so it's an easier swap. |
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New Tue 19 Oct 21 19:16
Air heating pumps - Bromptonaut
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>> Anyone tempted by this grant? If it was simple no strings subsidy AND I could make an air heat pump work here in a late nineties detached egg box then I might be tempted. Sadly, I doubt either qualification can be met. Why we're not mandating air and or ground pumps now, along with photo voltaic roof tiles for new builds is another question. Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 19 Oct 21 at 19:20
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New Tue 19 Oct 21 19:20
Air heating pumps - Zero
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| At the end of the day, BoJo had to make some kind of grandstand keynote statement prior to the climate conference in the UK, When everyone has gone home it will disappear into the background noise. Which is why is limited by numbers to be an insignificant effort. |
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New Tue 19 Oct 21 20:56
Air heating pumps - smokie
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I've been looking at them on and off to do at my own expense but I can't really see them being economically and better than what I have (well, before gas went up like it has!). My neighbour got a quote for an ASHP a while back, which would have attracted some kind of grant, and lo and behold the cost was the total of the grant plus quite a bit of his own dish. A mate down GLoucestershire way put in a large GSH system a few years back and despite quite generous grants and payments he reckons it's quite expensive to run and insufficiently flexible. I guess it's a bit like moving to an electric vehicle - you have to accept that things will be different and change your thinking and expectations a bit. |
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New Tue 19 Oct 21 21:46
Air heating pumps - Rudedog
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I know this has been the main story today so has been all over the radio including interviews with companies making and fitting the pumps but in my option many are being a bit fast and loose with how these will fit into the majority of citizens current lives and living conditions... bit like what was being trumped with EVs, all of the real world issues not being discussed or passed by.. Why would I want large radiators that only get luke warm and not hot enough to dry a pair or socks...as Z has said my old house wouldn't fit into the model for how heat-pumps work. Only a few interviews mentioned about the noise, especially when you might have a whole street humming away all day/night.. Not for me right now... I'll have to stick with my wood burning fire that I need to supplement my gas boiler. |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 02:31
Air heating pumps - Terry
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The focus on heat pumps is simplistic and one dimensional. Domestically there are other options - PV, batteries, solar water heating, split AC/heating units etc. Better insulation and heating controls are common needs irrespective of technology chosen. It is unclear which mix of technology is right in different circumstances as properties vary. Energy efficiency in new builds should be mandatory, not optional. Older properties are more difficult to retrofit and need compromised solutions. Most folk normally only think about replacing heating systems when what they have fails. Working out alternative solutions and getting contractors in to fit heat pumps, alter hot water systems, install complex controls etc takes time. So most end up replacing a failed gas boiler with another as it (a) is probably the cheapest solution, (b) quickest, and (c) causes minimal disruption. To make the transition happen quickly, expect to see tax and subsidies used to penalise those who are not responsive to change. |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 07:26
Air heating pumps - Kevin
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>..expect to see tax and subsidies used to penalise those who are not responsive to change. That was explicit in the earlier version of that Beeb article. They stated that the report said that heat pumps should be "no more" expensive to run than gas boilers "in ten years" and part of that would be achieved by advances in technology and by mucking about with the green taxes currently paid on leccy bills. The Treasury also believe that it is unacceptable to defer the cost to younger generations and the polluter must pay. |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 13:52
Air heating pumps - neiltoo
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>>heat pumps should be "no more" expensive to run than gas boilers "in ten years" That's because gas prices will be deliberately raised to make electricity viable. The price of electricity will never come down, and the efficiency of heat pumps will not improve enough to become viable. |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 16:35
Air heating pumps - Manatee
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Heat pumps are essentially mature technology. There's not much complicated about them. The recent rocketing price of electricity has messed things up. You can get 4 to 1 leverage on a heat pump, 4 kWh out for 1 kWh in. With gas at 3p and electric at 12p, that just about balances. With gas at 4p and electric at 20p it's out of bed. It's insulation and controls that are going to save me money, not the heat pump. |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 06:47
Air heating pumps - sooty123
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Why we're not mandating air and or ground pumps now, along with photo voltaic roof >> tiles for new builds is another question. >> No idea on that one, the grants are specifically excluded from being used on new builds. No government seems really to have got a grip of things like solar panels, air pumps etc. Don't know why. |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 07:29
Air heating pumps - Rudedog
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I guess it's going to be a competitive market but on most of the interviews the pump suppliers really stuck the knife in when the use of hydrogen was mentioned as an alternative using the existing network. Hopefully we won't be putting all of our eggs in one basket... |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 08:11
Air heating pumps - Kevin
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>Hopefully we won't be putting all of our eggs in one basket... Like all Govt initiatives (sic) involving technology, it will not work because they do not understand or even consider the practicalities (like your point about noise). Widespread adoption of heat pumps will fail for one simple reason - there's nowhere to put them because of all the b***** wheely bins! |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 09:08
Air heating pumps - sooty123
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>> I guess it's going to be a competitive market but on most of the interviews >> the pump suppliers really stuck the knife in when the use of hydrogen was mentioned >> as an alternative using the existing network. >> >> I believe the issue with hydrogen is that it is expensive to produce as it takes a large amount of energy. Although you're right the pump suppliers are at risk if hydrogen is produced in large quantities. No idea if it's practical to replace natural gas with hydrogen. |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 09:11
Air heating pumps - Bromptonaut
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>> No idea if it's practical to replace natural gas with hydrogen. I think I read somewhere that it is but that it would require a project similar to that undertaken in the sixties/seventies to replace Town Gas with Natural Gas from the North Sea. |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 09:13
Air heating pumps - sooty123
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I was thinking in terms of energy, ie is there enough capacity in the grid to produce enough hydrogen in the quantities required to supply domestic requirements in the uk?
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 20 Oct 21 at 10:32
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 08:34
Air heating pumps - James Loveless
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Like Zero, I know a heat pump in my home makes no sense. I did the research before replacing my gas boiler a few years ago. Problems: small garden, so I would need an air-source pump. Little space at the sides of the (detached) house, so the pump would be an eyesore on the front or back, with considerable internal disruption to connect it to the c/h system. The present radiators are too small, but in some rooms it would be difficult or impossible to accommodate larger ones. I came to the conclusion that a large financial outlay would produce negative benefits in comfort, especially in cold weather, and small, if any benefits in running expenses. Last edited by: James Loveless on Wed 20 Oct 21 at 08:35
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 10:37
Air heating pumps - Lygonos
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| Like all green incentives, this will simply increase the cost of an ASHP by £5k. |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 11:02
Air heating pumps - Manatee
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The incentive is just window dressing unfortunately. I don't know how to find or assemble all the data or have time/desire to do it but I would say the vast majority of UK housing stock is miles away from being suitable for retrofit of a heat pump as a simple substitute for a gas boiler, so the idea that £5,000 will bridge the gap between a £2,500 boiler replacement and a £7,500 heat pump installation is just nonsense, on stilts. My 11kW heat pump and associated pre-plumbed 300 litre tank cost about £9,000 from memory, so at best the £5,000 will cover the extra cost only of the pump. That's the least of it. I expect a heat pump to work for me because my, almost completed, new house won't actually need much heating of any kind. The heat loss should be less than a tenth of that of a 1980's house as built to the then prevailing standards. My insulation is in the inner walls, not on them or in the cavity (I do have a 60mm cavity and brick/block cladding just like a traditional house). The ground floor has 90mm of Kingspan and 150mm of thermalite block under it. We have no external vents other than the 2 roof terminals that the ventilation system connects to, the ventilation system that will provide better air exchange than passive vents and recovers 80% of the heat from the exhausted air. The heating of course is underfloor. The ventilation system only cost around £5,000 but to replicate it in an existing house you would have all the ground floor ceilings to make good - even assuming you could find a route for the ducting. Mine is 75mm radial stuff that passes easily between or across and through the metal web joists (which the 1980's or earlier house probably doesn't have). It has cost a lot, I don't even know how much as I haven't added it up separately but I can't imagine what it would cost to retrofit to that 1980's house to achieve anywhere near similar running costs - chances are its piping and rads would be inadequate for heating the house properly with a heat pump even if the heat loss has been reduced by 1/2 since it was built. The most effective way to achieve decent penetration of heat pumps would be to mandate them on new houses, or at least direct the incentive towards that. The biggest payback on existing houses will come from insulating them properly. It would probably be possible to save at least 50% of fossil fuel use in a few years. What's needed is for the insulation to be rolled out like central heating in the 60's and 70's, and double glazing in the 70's and 80's. I'm sure the home improvement industry must be desperate for another racket. Last edited by: Manatee on Wed 20 Oct 21 at 11:04
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 16:20
Air heating pumps - sooty123
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>> The most effective way to achieve decent penetration of heat pumps would be to mandate >> them on new houses, or at least direct the incentive towards that. >> > I think that's the plan starting in 2025. |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 16:45
Air heating pumps - PeterS
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>> I think that's the plan starting in 2025. I moved earlier this year, and looked at a few new builds round here that did have heat pumps for heating / hot water. But they were in locations that weren’t, as far as I know, on mains gas. They’re not the most attractive things when plonked in the garden of a new build…and while they had underfloor heating downstairs there were conventional radiators upstairs and a very large heat store cylinder I ended up actually buying somewhere in a converted Victorian building…10 foot ceilings, big windows and the rest of it. Heated by a district heating system that claims to be carbon neutral…no idea how it works…. But, for the sake of the Insulate Britain campaign I am pleased report that the surveyor said “the assessor did not find any opportunities to save energy by installing insulation at this property” It also got a ‘very good’ rating for all features , except main heating control which it scored average. But that’s now been replaced by a smart thermostat with geofencing and other magic so hopefully that’d be a very good now too :) So I might put a copy in the car, and if I’m obstructed by the campaigners I can beat them with it ;) Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 20 Oct 21 at 20:04
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 16:31
Air heating pumps - Terry
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I agree the fastest, least disruptive and cheapest savings in energy consumption will come from insulation, draught proofing, windows and control systems. Some elements may depend on age and property construction (eg: solid vs cavity walls). To get to a net zero home is more challenging and expensive. For a large new build this can be planned at the design stage and incorporated at fairly low cost. For most existing homes heat pumps may not be an optimal or even feasible solution. Room mounted split systems can provide heat, PV + battery back up can provide power, evacuated tubes can provide hot water. Any additional energy requirements will be met from the grid - which should anyway be zero carbon in time. On a personal level the increase in energy costs has left me seriiously researching PV and battery systems, and improved glazing to reduce heat loss. Unlikely to go for a heat pump as gas boiler was replaced only three years ago. The questions are who pays, and how quickly does the transition happen. Some will be unwilling to sacrifice current spending power to invest in better energy sources, some may find it difficult to afford. Some will create barriers to change under the illusion they are making a plausible argument. Government resolve will be tested! |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 17:06
Air heating pumps - PeterS
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| Interestingly (or perhaps not…) the EPC on our old Edwardian house, with original, albeit refurbished, sash windows unsurprisingly recommended replacement with double glazed units as they could save up to £172 a year on heating costs. But I also know that decent ‘heritage’ double glazed units that wouldn’t complete destroy the look of the house would have cost north of £40k fitted, so heating costs would need to go up an awful lot to ever make that a sensible economic decision, even assuming you’d be allowed to do it by the planners… |
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New Wed 20 Oct 21 17:12
Air heating pumps - Lygonos
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Similar on my Edwardian pile - 5 three & five-window bays and about 20 other single windows. They get replaced with double-glazed units as they rot away. Insulating the roof more and a better front door are about my limit for plans in the next 12 months. |
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New Tue 9 Nov 21 12:23
Air heating pumps - sooty123
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59212983 Sort of related, green light on new smaller reactors, i think i first saw these mentioned about 4 years. Looks interesting, hopefully they can pull it off. |
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