| Non-motoring > Poland / Israel etc. | Auctions |
| Thread Author: No FM2R | Replies: 12 |
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New Sun 15 Aug 21 20:25
Poland / Israel etc. - No FM2R
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www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58218750 "Poland's president Andrzej Duda has approved a law that will make it harder for Jewish people to recover property lost during and after World War Two." In particular... "Israel has recalled its diplomatic envoy to Warsaw over the changes, branding the law "anti-Semitic"." This really psses me off about Israel. Anything they disagree with is "anti semitic". The law might be wrong (it isn't) the law might be unfair (it isn't) but it certainly isn't anti semitic. 83% of the claims affected by this law are by Polish people who were deprived of their property by the Communist regime, little to do with the holocaust. Those claims that are related to the Jewish (and they're Polish, NOT Israeli) gross mistreatment are at least 80 years old FFS. How long does it take to realise that your great-great-grandparents were hard done by and that there's money in it? Further Israel bounded gleefully into the opportunity and said that the Poles should understand "what the Holocaust means to the citizens of Israel and how much we will not tolerate contempt for the memory of the victims and the memory of the Holocaust," Well, except that in this case the citizens of Israel have no involvement other than as descendants, it was the citizens of Poland that were abused, and nobody is expressing contempt towards anything. Well, other than me that is. Apparently the US has joined in with Israel in the wailing and clapping its hands to its face in shock. BF surprise there. |
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New Sun 15 Aug 21 22:07
Poland / Israel etc. - Netsur
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But surely even one property stolen from a Jewish family during the Nazi era is one too many? Poland is meant to be a democratic country with rule of law, fair to all. If I can prove that my great grandfather owned a house in Lodz but was taken out by force and murdered in Auschwitz and a Polish family moved in, then I have the right to that property. Similarly for people who suffered under communist rule. The only issue is there is no one to stand up and support the rights of those families, whereas Jews have the State of Israel which has locus in these matters. No point getting antsy about it. Besides it simply shows that Poland and other countries like Hungary are moving away from the EU ideal of democracy. Putin may get his wish after all. |
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New Sun 15 Aug 21 22:21
Poland / Israel etc. - Zero
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Fair enough, but it applies to all not just jewish owned properties, so its not Anti semetic as the Israeli government claims. In recent decades property restitution has become deeply mired in corruption, with title claims being bought and sold, and tenants suddenly finding themselves thrown out of their apartments from one day to the next. Jewish claims account for just a minority of total claims, most of which have been made by Poles. As a result, the law received the backing of Poland's opposition as well as the government. |
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New Sun 15 Aug 21 22:45
Poland / Israel etc. - No FM2R
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>>surely even one property stolen from a Jewish family during the Nazi era is one too many? What about property stolen from a non-Jewish family? Why do you need to include the word "Jewish"? And how far back is acceptable? What about if I can prove ancestors of mine lost land in the Middle Ages. Can I have it back? What about Native Americans proving that an ancestor of theirs used to have a farm where the Whitehouse is? And Poland have not said that only Jewish Poles must stop. They have said all claims from all Poles must stop. How is that "anti-semitic"? How is it disrespecting the Holocaust. WTF it has got to do with the state of Israel and it's global paranoia is beyond me. But if Israel wants to get involved, have they kicked anybody off their land in the last 70 years? Oh. Well will they be giving it back soon then? I am not anti any religion. I am not against any race of people. But the State of Israel frequently gets right up my nose. >>The only issue is there is no one to stand up and support the rights of those families, whereas Jews have the State of Israel which has locus in these matters. Why does it? And no, they're not defending the claims. They are chanting their normal wail of "it's anti-semitic, it disrespects the holocaust" which is used whenever they don't like something, even if they are not entirely clear why they don't like it. Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 15 Aug 21 at 22:46
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New Mon 16 Aug 21 06:45
Poland / Israel etc. - Netsur
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Israel has the locus because I and every other Jew gives it that locus. Why? Because when the chips are down and something like what is happening in Afghanistan occurs in the west (and extremist Muslims would like that) I can get on a plane a go to a country that will take me in no questions asked. And why will it do that? Because 6,000,000 of my family were murdered by a supposedly civilised nation. Mark, you should understand as a foreigner in a far away land. You're not one of them. I will never be one of you. As much as I want to, as much as I act as a true Brit, supporting our teams, our armed forces, the monarchy, being a great employer, someone somewhere does not see me as they see themselves. I am an outsider. That is why. Anything said or done which adversely affects a Jew because they are Jewish is by definition anti-semitic. In this case, the property was stolen from the Jews because they were Jewish, hence deliberately not permitting restitution is anti-semitic. |
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New Mon 16 Aug 21 08:00
Poland / Israel etc. - sooty123
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. As much as I want to, >> as much as I act as a true Brit, supporting our teams, our armed forces, >> the monarchy, being a great employer, someone somewhere does not see me as they see >> themselves. I am an outsider. That is why. I wonder why you give weight of opinion of 'someone somewhere' expressed by people I assume you've never met. Why does their opinion matter so much to you? |
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New Mon 16 Aug 21 08:29
Poland / Israel etc. - Zero
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>> And why will it do that? Because 6,000,000 of my family were murdered by a >> supposedly civilised nation. I think we can agree, Jewish and non Jewish, it was far from a civilised nation at that time. Which is why the world, lost many souls to get rid of that uncivilised nation. >> >> Anything said or done which adversely affects a Jew because they are Jewish is by >> definition anti-semitic. In this case, the property was stolen from the Jews because they were >> Jewish, hence deliberately not permitting restitution is anti-semitic. In this case, as said above, it affects mostly non Jews. So its not. You have fears about Anti Semitism. So do do it. My fear is this, its being used as a tool, no sorry, overused as a tool by the state of Israel. The Holocaust should never be forgotten, taught in history in schools and remembered annually. However throwing that into this dispute, (and its thrown into nearly everything that the State of Israel disputes) is not relevant, and at the end of the day, will lead to Holocaust fatigue through the world, and dilute its existence. The very same applies to Anti Semitism, which at the the end of the day is just racism, Overuse and wrongly applied definitions of Anti Semitism, threatens the fight against racism generally. And finally disapproval of actions of the state of Israel is not anti semitism. |
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New Sun 5 Sep 21 11:58
Poland / Israel etc. - Bromptonaut
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>> Mark, you should understand as a foreigner in a far away land. You're not one >> of them. I will never be one of you. As much as I want to, >> as much as I act as a true Brit, supporting our teams, our armed forces, >> the monarchy, being a great employer, someone somewhere does not see me as they see >> themselves. I am an outsider. That is why. Just re-read this thread. There's an irony in Netsur's post in that if I said something similar about Jews I'd potentially fall foul of the Holocaust Memorial definition of anti-Semitism. |
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New Sun 5 Sep 21 14:33
Poland / Israel etc. - No FM2R
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I wasn't going to bother with this further, but since Bromp has brought it back to the fore and I'm idle.... >>Mark, you should understand as a foreigner in a far away land. You're not one of them. I will never be one of you In particular "you're not one of them". For that feeling to have any relevance to me, it would have to be something I felt, not something some person unknown to me felt. And I have never considered myself either one of them or not one of them. And that includes people in the UK. Mostly, I think, because I put no borders or lines around me. Not nationality, religion, sex, orientation or anything else. I don't make it a part of my life to push what I am upon others, nor do I care very much what they are. I just deal with people as I find them and largely as they behave towards me. I do not find that who they sleep with or who they worship has any bearing on how I feel towards them. Unless they push it in my face; be that religion, orientation, sex or anything else. Then I both feel resentment and get irritated. There will always be a***holes who will focus on colour, or race, or religion, but they represent no group of which I wish to be part so "not being one of them" is a non-issue. In my experience, Jewish people are as quick as Muslim people to push their religion onto others as the only right way. Both are just as quick to regard any criticism of them as a criticism of their religion. Both of them seem intolerant of the ways of others. Both seem very quick to perceive insults. I have no interest in, or prejudice against, the religion of another. Particular religions which are as seemingly delicate as those followed by Jews or Muslims. |
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New Mon 6 Sep 21 13:17
Poland / Israel etc. - Lygonos
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Better the pride that resides In a citizen of the World, Than the pride that divides When a coulourful rag is unfurled. |
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New Mon 16 Aug 21 08:05
Poland / Israel etc. - sooty123
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I can see why they brought it in, from what I've read it's total legal chaos. I saw a show on bbc2 about it how it went round and round the courts with no real outcome. Not uncommon to put a statute of limitations, as Mark says how far does we go back, centuries? |
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New Mon 16 Aug 21 08:53
Poland / Israel etc. - Rudedog
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One of the interests that I started reading up on was around the state of post-war Germany in particular West Germany, this eventually lead to reading up on the fall of the Berlin wall and what happen during reunification… if I remember rightly there were similar issues when Germans left to the West and they homes/land were taken by the Soviets, after the wall fell many returned and long running disputes/court cases ensued as they wanted their land back from the current owners… I’m pretty sure there was a limitation on how far back they looked to determine who were the rightful owners. |
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New Mon 16 Aug 21 10:14
Poland / Israel etc. - Terry
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I think there is a purely practical consideration which makes application of a time limit on claims self evident, irrespective of the injustice that was done. Firstly almost all responsible for those acts 75+ years ago are long dead. Justice would not be served through seeking retribution, revenge or compensation for the sins of fathers, grandfathers and earlier. Secondly any property may have changed hands entirely legitimately several times over the last 75 years. There is no justification for the current owners being held accountable for its confiscation 3 generations ago. In many cases the property no longer exists - my sisters father-in-law was a refugee from Poland pre war. His home which was left in a hurry is now an industrial estate! |
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