www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/58037479
In amongst all the fawning and praising of Biles, I wonder how the person who could have had Biles' place at the Olympics instead feels about her going all the way there and then deciding it was better for her not to compete.
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Had the same conversation here earlier... I do have some sympathy but a lot of people invest a lot of time in getting someone to the Olympics, and even more time is invested in those who don't make it. I do know one girl who was close to being a Paralympian but didn't make it at the final cut, she had trained every day for a couple of years and had a support crew around her all that time - all were devastated.
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Succeeding as an elite athlete.
Spotted at an early age - probably less than 10 years old - as someone with exceptional potential.
Slowly acquire (or actually have foisted upon you) medics, training staff, training schedules, dieticians, sports psychologists etc.
By the age of 14 you are starting to compete in top level events and often winning.
By the age of 16 you are identified as a games (Commonwealth, Olympics etc) medal prospect
You become a financial asset - many owe their livelihoods to your efforts, sponsors and funding need to be wooed. Media need to be managed.
You finally make it to the very top of your chosen sport and are the odds on favourite for gold.
The pressure continues to increase - and one day the barely adult can no longer cope.
Some thrive. Some cope. Some can't.
Is this is explotation (of a child) or an opportunity to make the most their talents - disrupt their education, compromise relationships and interpersonal skills, promote truly obsessive behaviours, subject them to both physical and emotional stress.
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Exceptional athlete - In her discipline mental and physical fitness are vital to achieve results. Up until the start of the games, results and performances justified her inclusion.
As it turns she is not fit, performances in competition clearly indicate that, so she has withdrawn.
It happens, to everyone at some time, in every sport. To cast doubt on why she was there in the first place is not warranted. The fact she stayed at the venue to support the team showed much for her commitment.
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>> In amongst all the fawning and praising of Biles, I wonder how the person who
>> could have had Biles' place at the Olympics instead feels about her going all the
>> way there and then deciding it was better for her not to compete.
I dare say that person might feel aggrieved but I don't think there's any real justification. As Zero points out this stuff happens from time to time. We've has a high profile tennis player withdraw from the major tournaments and a England cricket player do the same.
Rather than carping and implying some sort of weakness and deliberate conduct on the part of those pulling out we should be taking a hard look at the system that puts them in that position.
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>> Rather than carping and implying some sort of weakness and deliberate conduct on the part
>> of those pulling out we should be taking a hard look at the system that
>> puts them in that position.
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Agreed.
Sports people have increasingly become commodities, pushed to and often beyond the limits by those who benefit financially from them. They are often drugged to the eyeballs with painkillers in order to compete when they really need time off to rest and recover.
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I believe that was the case certainly universally till very recently, and probably still ongoing in China/Russia. But for the rest of the world its moved on a long way very quickly and given the hi profile scandals simply is no longer tolerated. As Biles has proved, being able to withdraw herself, with the full backing of her sports body and management, and general public support (Apart from the normal loons of course)
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>>Rather than carping and implying some sort of weakness and deliberate conduct on the part of those pulling out we should be taking a hard look at the system that puts them in that position
Who was carping?
Still, I take your point. Perhaps we should change the system so that participation is not compulsory anymore.
Oh, wait......
Perhaps we should just make it easier. That's the usual approach, isn't it?
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>> Who was carping?
My initial reading of your OP was that you were. If not than I apologise.
>> Perhaps we should just make it easier. That's the usual approach, isn't it?
I'm not sure what you mean. If it's about lowering the standards for a medal then that would be completely wrong. Ms Biles may be successfully treated for her anxiety, depression or whatever and return to competition, as she would if a physical health problem. On the other hand if it's not treatable she will retire.
There is though another avenue. Naomi Osaka withdrew from Grand Slam tournaments because she struggled with post match media commitments.
In UK employment law I suspect we'd be talking reasonable adaptations.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 1 Aug 21 at 14:30
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>> Perhaps we should just make it easier. That's the usual approach, isn't it?
>
>I'm not sure what you mean.
It seems to me we constantly worry about how difficult some people find some aspect of life and then pull everybody else back to that level.
If you have two runners and you want them to be equal, you have to slow the faster runner to the speed of the slower. We seem to increasingly do that in schools, in sports and increasingly in the work place.
Difficult things are difficult things and thus not everyone can do them. If Biles cannot cope, then she cannot cope and should step aside and leave it to someone who can.
As Osaka did in tennis, though there I think she was a little surprised because she was expecting to be a hero.
We shouldn't shame people for not being able to cope or consider them in some way lesser people, but neither should we pretend that they can.
Perhaps there should be a second level of competition for those who can't cope with the big stuff. But nobody will have the slightest interest in it. Including the competitors.
Of course, if there is child abuse, drug abuse or similar, then that should be and can be controlled using existing legislation.
But if Biles is truly saying that the fight to be the best in the word is emotionally stressful and more than she can cope with, well dur - so don't try.
I'm not sure WTF employment law has got to do with it.
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You are being very unfair about Biles. She has proven, in the past and leading up to these games, that she could more than cope with it, in fact better than most. To the point maybe that those who couldn't do it quite as well in the team leaned upon her.
On the day, clearly no-one including her knew she would become unfit. Its erroneous in this case to suggest she shouldn't have tried. She is merely analysing what went wrong.
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>>You are being very unfair about Biles
Oh quite possibly. I've never heard of her before, not my sort of sport really. I enjoy the Olympics (usually) but there's very few of the sports I follow outside the actual events.
>>On the day, clearly no-one including her knew she would become unfit. Its erroneous in this case to suggest she shouldn't have tried.
Fair.
But why do we attach any importance to it over and above a broken leg or injured muscle? Are we not told that we should respect emotional difficulties just as we respect body injuries? Surely not more?
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In most sport mental injury or health is as important as the physical aspect, however in the past - and to tis day maybe - that fact has not been accepted, and to admit you were not mentally fit would be jumped on as a character failing. And fairly or not exploited by your opponents.
It would have been easy for Biles to fall back on a "I have a physical injury" excuse, as most in the past have done. To admit the truth is unusual and brave, hence the praise. It may make her a better athlete for the next games.
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Perhaps, it's difficult to know, but you make a good point.
But if the injury was muscular would we seek to make the event easier?
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No it wouldn't even be considered because records continue to fall, and physical envelopes get pushed.
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>> But why do we attach any importance to it over and above a broken leg
>> or injured muscle? Are we not told that we should respect emotional difficulties just as
>> we respect body injuries? Surely not more?
Historically the issue has been that while physical injury is an occupational hazard emotional difficulties were regarded as weakness. IIRC Marcus Trescothick took a lot of stick over returning home from a tour.
Only now is sport recognising that pyschological or mental health problems are of even equal validity.
That's why Simone Biles is being feted.
For clarity my point about Employment Law related to Naomi Osaka. She could perform perfectly well on court, her problem was with organisers' and sponsors' insistence on post match interviews etc.
I was suggesting that in a UK employment scenario her issues would be dealt with by reasonable adaptations and that an employer failing to do so could find themselves in hot water.
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>> I was suggesting that in a UK employment scenario her issues would be dealt with
>> by reasonable adaptations and that an employer failing to do so could find themselves in
>> hot water.
But they're not employees.
>>her problem was with organisers' and sponsors' insistence on post match interviews fulfilling her contractual responsibilities, which she had willingly signed up to. As had *every* player on the tours.
There, fixed it for you.
If she wants to renegotiate, if she chooses to ignore, then that's her choice. But don't make it out to be some out of the blue pressure from the evil corporations.
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High profile athletes and sports persons are trained and coached in dealing with the press, its considered a vital part of the image and future of any sport, and is part of their contract. Biles realised she was not fit, but still fulfilled her press contractural duties.
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precisely.
As I said, I think Osaka was surprised to find out that she wasn't a hero and in fact the majority of the rest of the players disagreed with her actions, despite sympathy for her condition.
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I dare say that whatever discipline in which one competes in the games requires dedication and skill which is way beyond most of us. But I find it difficult to take the Olympics seriously anymore, fifty percent of it seems to be what I would describe as novelty events, in because the games must be seen to be "Inclusive".
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At least the Olympic committee have at least resolved one important issue - how to tell a woman from a man without examining genitalia, a process which most others would understand. Testosterone levels are the key!
www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/58054891
Happy to say the man turned lady (apparently) failed to win. No problem with transgender folk and other variants of normal - its their call and should be respected as such.
But it seems OK to deny the athletes the benefits of performance enhancing drugs, but positively encourage those which result in a testable gender change. Madness!!
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I think it is ridiculous.
I have no comment or opinion on how someone chooses to live their life, it's none of my business.
However, by and large men and women have separate competitions mostly one assumes for a level playing field, insofar as that is ever possible with human beings.
For there to be surgery and/or drugs acceptable to the IOC which will permit a competitor to compete in the other gender's category seems an absolute nonsense to me.
Especially since they are so pedantic on other drugs to avoid any supposed or alleged advantage.
It will, ultimately, destroy the affected events as spectator sports, I suspect.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 2 Aug 21 at 23:47
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>> At least the Olympic committee have at least resolved one important issue - how to
>> tell a woman from a man without examining genitalia, a process which most others would
>> understand. Testosterone levels are the key!
I confess I haven't looked at the detail of this but it seems to me that if you follow it to its logical conclusion then you can ignore both sex (physical characteristics at birth?) and gender (as self-defined?) and divide the competitions into testosterone bands. Perhaps a 2 dimensional matrix with substance-assisted and substance-free categories, accompanied by 5,000 pages on what a substance is and how much can be in the bloodstream.
Some very equality / diversity aware and intelligent people have been getting themselves into trouble for years because they say, for example, that while a trans woman can be fully equivalent and equal to any other kind of woman in law and should be treated as such, they are not the same thing. The Olympic committee have probably put themselves in the same position - how will they reconcile equality with excluding a trans woman with too much testosterone, or a trans man with too little?
It will be the world's biggest ever can of worms. Or I could have missed the point as usual.
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>> It will be the world's biggest ever can of worms. Or I could have missed
>> the point as usual.
The whole thing is a mahoosive can of worms.
Not just regarding the Olympics and other sports.
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>>Happy to say the man turned lady (apparently) failed to win.
That must have been disappointing for her, because apparently she worked her b******* off to win.
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>> That must have been disappointing for her, because apparently she worked her b******* off to
>> win.
According to some reports she's still 'intact' downstairs.
Which leads to another line about All Jerk and No Snatch.
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Still intact? That makes the whole thing even more ridiculous if it's true. So if she stops taking drugs she can go back to male competitions?
Are you a pole vaulter?
No, I'm German, but how did you know my name?
Courtesy Ken Bruce, this morning
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>>Novelty events.
I guess most of the events were new at some point. Given that running was probably around in the cave man era, javelin a little later etc. Cycling events were in the first modern Olympics, but I doubt very much in the same format they are now.
I have really enjoyed watching the BMX and cross country cycling events and we did really well at them, especially considering the lack of funding in some cases.
What's more they are trendy and that will likely encourage the youngsters to participate and enjoy the games, exercise more and participate in sports rather than sitting behind games consoles and that must be a good thing.
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I still think dancing horses belong in a circus, not the Olympics….
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>> I still think dancing horses belong in a circus, not the Olympics….
Do they give a medal to the horse? They should.
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>>Do they give a medal to the horse?
No, just a reprieve from being inside a tin of dog food.
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I was chatting to someone yesterday about the Olympics and I asked him “How do they get horses to do those stupid walks?” He replied, “Oh, you mean dressage, my daughter does that”. He said they choose horses which are pre-disposed to walk like that, so training is fairly minimal. He added, however, that there was disagreement in the family about how much credit the horse or rider should receive for a performance.
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>>disagreement in the family about how much credit the horse or rider should receive for a performance.
A metaphor for life. When they win a gold medal, the boss gets the credit. If they come last, the horse is Pedigree Chum.
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>> I was chatting to someone yesterday about the Olympics and I asked him “How do
>> they get horses to do those stupid walks?” He replied, “Oh, you mean dressage, my
>> daughter does that”. He said they choose horses which are pre-disposed to walk like that,
>> so training is fairly minimal.
Err what a load of intact transexual weight lifters. No animal is pre disposed to walk other than its kin, but they breed horses that are capable of being trained. It still needs a shed load of training to do it, but of course you wouldn't try to do it with a donkey.
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>>of course you wouldn't try to do it with a donkey.
They do in Tierra Baja, Cartagena.
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>> >>of course you wouldn't try to do it with a donkey.
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>> They do in Tierra Baja, Cartagena.
Do what? exactly Is it on You tube?
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 3 Aug 21 at 17:58
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ah0eb8fkPM
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 3 Aug 21 at 18:09
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Jeez I didnt know there was a film.........
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I'd seen that before but had actually managed to forget about it. Not sure I can forget it twice unfortunately.
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How did we get there from discussing mental health in the Olympics?
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>How did we get there from discussing mental health in the Olympics?
He must be from Wales.
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Didn't I hear that one of the medal winners for team GB in horse riding had previously been in a coma and has lost the sight in one eye?
That takes something to get back on and carry on....
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>> so training is fairly minimal.
Absolutely. Which is why Charlotte Dujardin's ten year old Pumpkin is a couple of years off being ready for the Olympics - despite being the grand old age of ten. Flat racehorses start their career at two.
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Simone Biles withdraws from two more events - smokie
