Looking at replacement tyres the other day, I phoned a couple of local tyre depots.
On being quoted for a pair of 'Mitcherlins', it made me wonder when it is 'correct' to pronounce foreign words in their native form - or to anglicise them as mentioned before.
Would you say a restaurant was 'Mitcherlin-starred' or 'Meeshlan-starred' (or just 'posh'!)?
Would you ever enquire after a 'pair of Meeshlans' from a tyre place?
Mind you, even Nestlé's Milky Bar has changed over the years from 'Nessles' to 'Nestlays' !
made non make/model specific
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 22 Sep 10 at 12:41
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When people pronounce lingerie 'lonjeray' I get a genuine, murderous red mist. If anyone did it in my presence I'd find it hard not to throttle them.
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"When people pronounce lingerie 'lonjeray' I get a genuine, murderous red mist. If anyone did it in my presence I'd find it hard not to throttle them."
Aren't you getting a bit old to be chatting about lingerie to your guests?
Last edited by: BiggerBadderDave on Wed 22 Sep 10 at 12:06
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>> Aren't you getting a bit old to be chatting about lingerie to your guests?
I have reached an age when I can talk to anyone about anything BBD.
Some of us age gracefully you know. We don't all mutate suddenly from leering, pocket-billiards-playing superannuated adolescents into dirty old men.
Some people do though I grant you.
Where's Zero now that the vile insults are starting to fly? Eheu! Eheu!
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English way in England, French way in France. In both cases it means absolutely nothing unless pronounced in the way the locals understand it.
You should hear what the French do with English words - of which, in TV adverts, etc, there are now many in circulation.
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I'm sure I remember twenty years or more ago many people saying "Renolt", pronouncing the L and the T, but I've not heard that for a long time - everyone says Renno. I daresay in France it's said differently again.
TV advertising perhaps?
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The rennolt example reminds me of when I got my 104 and being asked if I liked my 'Pewgot'!!
In the UK yres are Mitchelin but restaurant stars are Mishelan. Lots of people in Stoke used to work at 'the Mitch'.
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We anglicise foreign words everyday as do other nations. Afterall we don't say Parree when referring to the capital of France. We say the 'S' on the end.
The same way the French don't say 'London' but 'Londre'.
That said, when pronouncing a name of a place or person I've never understood why its said differently by a foreigner, afterall a name is a name and shouldnt change just because its being spoken by someone from another country.
Take for example a friend of mine is called Nicholas. He worked for an insurance firm in France and was always called Nicola despite the fact that it wasn't his name. he always thought it a little disrepectful that they wouldnt call him by his actual name, even accounting for accents and their ability to pronounce certain letters.
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Mercer-days anyone, or Mer-SAY-dees, or just Merk?
Next time a pedant corrects your pronunciation of the painter, Degas, which you call Day-gah and he insists is De -gah, point out that he came from southern France of Italian origin, so would have been Day Gas.
If people want to bring their foreign words here, and they are very welcome, then we can pronounce them any way we like.
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How about this one? UK newspapers tend to refer to the principal target of the 9/11 attacks as the 'World Trade Centre', when surely it would be more appropriate to use the US spelling 'Center', as it would have appeared on the building's name plate. Or are proper nouns in American English treated the same way as those in French or Chinese and translated into familiar forms - 'Elysée Palace', 'Tiananmen Square'?
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"are proper nouns in American English treated the same way as those in French or Chinese and translated into familiar forms - 'Elysée Palace', 'Tiananmen Square'? " Why not?
You wouldn't write "Center" would you? Even in the US. It's an opportunity to educate them. :-)
Incidentally, do you agree with the apostophe in "it's". It is after all a short form of "it is". I've just been berated in another, less educated, forum. I'm open to correction and some of that there learning.
John
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I have written 'center' when I was attached to a US branch of my former employer and was writing for a technical publication in US English. And I would write 'Center' wherever I was if it was part of the capitalized title of a building or organization. US publications tend to write about 'the Labor Party' and that's wrong too, for the same reason.
On the other point, there's nothing to agree or disagree with. It's is a contraction of 'it has' or 'it is'; Its is the possessive form of 'it' and, like 'his' or 'whose', never has an apostrophe. Sadly these days, even here, more people get that one wrong than right.
And yes, I favour the -ize form over the -ise alternative. Penguin Books does the same, as does Oxford Dictionaries. I wouldn't go so far as Inspector Morse, who once berated the -ise usage as 'illiterate', but nor is it purely American as too many suppose.
Sorry. You did ask.
}:---)
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It is mildly annoying, in the sense that puts a smile on your face, when someone such as Bill Bryson points out that the US usage is in fact the old English usage which has died out in the UK. Why can't they just move with the times?
Wasn't it Webster, with his dictionary, who imposed his personal views on spelling on the US. And they fell for it.
John
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..."it's". It is after all a short form of "it is"...
Apostrophe is correct when used - as above - as a short form of "it is".
No apostrophe when possessive:
"A cat had to have its leg amputated following an accident."
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>> "A cat had to have its leg amputated following an accident."
>>
Poor thing.
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My daughter's cat is just back from two days at the vets having been hit by a car outside the house. They were pleased to tell me x-rays showed no breaks so it was *only* £256!
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Pah
Fifi, has in her life, amassed vets bills of about £6500.
£5,500 was to rebuild a leg after being run over (before I got her)
Did it teach her road sense? Not a hope, she really is a stupid cow.
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..."A cat had to have its leg amputated following an accident."...Poor thing...
I couldn't think of anything more cheerful at the time.
Still, it's proved a good advertisement for thread drift by opening the topic of vets' bills.
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The shortened version of "it is" is correctly "It's". "It's going to rain tomorrow." The car blew "Its" head gasket is also correct - no apostrophe as no letter has been removed from the word
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Wed 22 Sep 10 at 18:07
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I'm presently doing a project for a German automotive supplier who use "Business American English" as their corporate language. This means, among other things, writing "Center" instead of "Centre" and "Tire" instead of "Tyre".
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Just come across another nonsense re the Commonwealth Games. The man who appears to the adminstration expert for the English team, as opposed to the team captain, is known as the "Chef de Mission"!! Where on earth does that come from and why? Why do motoro racing teams have "Team Principals"! Probably becuase they are bit short of principles!
Last edited by: Perky Penguin on Wed 22 Sep 10 at 18:37
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I get less worked up over apostrophes since in my bookselling persona I acquired a nice little first edition Alice in Wonderland, where she uses the words ca'n't and sha'n't and even wo'n't throughout.
We've dropped that usage but I don't doubt a Victorian purist would berate us for it.
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>> first edition Alice in Wonderland, where she uses the words ca'n't and sha'n't
>> and even wo'n't throughout.
>>
>> We've dropped that usage but I don't doubt a Victorian purist would berate us for
>> it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
I love that, I might try and reintroduce it. Like "ain't" correctly used as a contraction of "am not I".
The tire/tyre argument is an interesting one. I read that "tire" was the original English way of spelling the metal bands put round cartwheels and train wheels, but when rubber ones were introduced they were marketed as "tyres". There was a correspondence in the Times complaining about the new incorrect spelling.
Plus ca change, as we say here.
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Does the German automotive supplier supply Jagwaa parts to the US?
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Yes, and Beemdubbya. Not to mention Hunday.
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>> I'm sure I remember twenty years or more ago many people saying "Renolt", pronouncing the
>> L and the T, but I've not heard that for a long time - everyone
>> says Renno.
A friend of mine says Renorlt.
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>> A friend of mine says Renorlt.
Well thank heavens for it. If you listen to recordings of people speaking from as little as thirty years ago you can hear some beautiful accents and dialect, much of which seem be fading.
I don't hear the Fen accent - (eg "compootre") - often now, for example.
But I do hear a lot of shop assistants asking "Can I halp?"
I'm not sure when the "e" became an "a" but it's everywhere (in Cambridge anyway).
Mind you, I'm not so keen on the fifties style "Oh, I heff het me beck", usually heard in hospital dramas.
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Does anybody here actually say Volksvagen?
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Yes.
'Folksvagen' is more or less correct, actually. The v is pronounced f and the w pronounced v.
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I say
Mishelon
and Volksfagen
It sounds suitably pretentious and poncey.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 23 Sep 10 at 12:33
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Anybody say "Ordi" for Audi?
My old man does and it sends shivers down my spine.
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I believe 'Audi' is a Latin play on words derived from the company founder's name - from "to listen".
So if you parallel the normal pronunciation of 'audio', maybe he's correct!
Last edited by: Old Sock on Thu 23 Sep 10 at 13:06
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I say Veedub. I'll get me coat...
My father-in-law also says "Ordi". :-)
Last edited by: DP on Thu 23 Sep 10 at 12:57
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...let's call the whole thing off...
Or
there's the American pronunciation of Dumas
Dumb ass.
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Covered so amusingly in 'The Shawshank Redemption'. :-)
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Even the British TV ads for Braun electrical products pronounced the name wrongly as 'Brawn'.
The BBC used to have a department that the hacks could contact for this sort of thing, and in a way in those days beeeb and other broadcast hacks made a decent, if strangled, British attempt at correct pronunciation.
No longer alas. Even on BBC2 you can hear horrible mutilations like my bete noire, 'lonjeray'.
I blame the idle slags who were supposed to be teaching the three Rs between 1965 and 1995 or later. Damn carphounds with their self-expression rubbish. Wasting everyone's money and taking the country backwards.
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...I blame the idle slags who were supposed to be teaching the three Rs...
Too right.
Not enough attention paid to how many dots should be used, and look where it's got us.
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With a dot shortage?
John
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Tee heee...
This sort of thing can cause dissension in the most unlikely places. My wife pronounces schedule in the American way, skedule, and the word schism - a theological split in a church - skism.
We were both raised in England as sort of Catholics, although in her case there was no direct Jesuit input. I pronounce these words correctly shedule and sissm. Yet she is better educated in many ways than I am.
Hope she doesn't see this. She'll hate it.
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I use Sschedule, and Skism.
Does that make me bishexual?
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I suppose the real point is that it doesn't matter. Probably the French will be saying lonjeray in a decade or two. There are lots of MacDonalds outlets here.
But there's nothing wrong with a bit of civilised discourse on the subject.
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So how does one say "lingerie" then AC, without sounding too interested of course. I think I might be guilty of being a lonjeray offender.
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This thread is pants !
I'll have to go, I 'ave a minkey in my rhoom.
Ted
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Do yew hev a leesonce fer your minkey?
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Non, monsewer. Pliss to not inform an officer of ze lair.
Reminded me of this....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TtZgs8k8dU&NR=1
HeHe
Ted
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>> how does one say "lingerie" then
perfectly good question from one who did little proper French at school, or has quickly forgotten it. Respect, Humph.
The answer isn't easy though. There isn't an English phoneme like that. '-ain' is pronounced the same in French. Midway between 'an' and 'eh'.
It's a sort of sneering sound. Like a New York Jew expressing interested doubt about something, if that means anything to you.
Anyway, that takes care of the 'lin-'. The '-gerie' is straightforward. One is allowed to have a foreign accent.
Don't say lonjeray Humph. Say lanjerie. Closer to the mark.
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LinGerry is of course the correct English pronunciation.
All you posh people quoting schoolboy/girl French remind me why I hated the subject...
The French may have invaded some 9.5 centuries ago but our ruling classes no longer speak French as their first language.
Only the fox middle class do.
(For the benefit of the hoi polloi , fox is the English pronunciation of "faux" ).
:-)
Last edited by: madf on Thu 23 Sep 10 at 20:10
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Bit of a Little Englander there madf I'd say. But I agree, Linjerry is about a thousand times better than the ghastly twisted lonjeray.
Not all foreign words or names are anglicised in normal educated discourse. Of course there are people who make a painful meal out of saying things right.
In my own case though, although I learned French young from good teachers, I have come to know aspects of the language well having worked in it and thought in it in the course of my life. I've written it as a hack and sometimes got away with it too.
So it started as schoolboy French and grew. A bit less of the jumped-up fox bourgeoisie talk please. You will embarrass me.
My wife has a better accent than me and her French is often more correct. But I can say more faster.
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Thu 23 Sep 10 at 20:22
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I'll try it tonight AC. I'll let you know how it goes. I'll practice under my breath first for a while though just to be sure...
" I say old girl, spiffing longeray....whoops langeree.....oh jeez..."
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Your a smooth talker Humph.
How many wives you had?
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Just the two of those. Can't afford any more.
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">> how does one say "lingerie" then
perfectly good question"
Dear oh dear oh dear. A perfectly dire question.
Surely one should spend less time worrying about pronouncing them and more time practising how to peel them off.
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OK then ,if one pronounces lingerie as lawngeree.....
..how does one pronounce' peignoir'....
and if you get it wrong do you make a fox paw ( as Basil Brush used to say)
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>> if one pronounces lingerie as lawngeree.....
..how does one pronounce' peignoir'....
Oh dear. Lawngeree is awful.
How about 'pignoyer'? That would be in style. 'Painwaar' would be far too poncy. A French person might even understand it.
Tchah!
Last edited by: Armel Coussine on Fri 24 Sep 10 at 10:48
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What ever happened to "shout at them till the idiots understand" accent?
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Zut alors et sacré bleu! You rosbeefs murder our beautiful language!
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'rosbif' if you don't mind...
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It's all San Fairy Ann to me.
John
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Now, there's a lovely expression from my roots in Leicestershire:)
pat
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As a general rule of thumb, the more expensive, desirable or pretentious an item is, the more likely it will be described in a "foreign" accent.
Another rule of thumb is that the less able a person is to afford such an item, the louder they will speak of it.
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Another rule of thumb is that the less able a person is to afford such an item, the louder they will speak of it.....
Tell me about it! The number of oiks who sit in business class on planes is remarkable. I cannot believe that these people buy those tickets with their own money. The real business travellers you can spot as being reasonably smartly dressed and (usually) on their own, polite to the stewardesses and other passengers. Those others are just louts who shout a lot, recline the seatbacks in the faces of those behind and are objectionable.
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>> The real business travellers you can spot as being reasonably smartly dressed and (usually) on
>> their own, polite to the stewardesses and other passengers. Those others are just louts who
>> shout a lot, recline the seatbacks in the faces of those behind and are objectionable.
Read Air Babylon to find out the nice things stewards and check-in staff do for these individuals!
I learned a LONG time ago to never ever upset anyone in the service industry...
Back on thread. The main motoring centre of SA isa town of Uitenhage.
Pronounced (properly) Eight-ten-harger, but more-commonly anglicised to You-ten-haig.
Causes much confusion.
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Sounds a bit Double Dutch to me.
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I've been thinking about this a bit more and remembering the ways people behave. There's a difference between anglicising the phonemes in a word and mispronouncing it. To take an example, I pronounce the name Renault in an English way, saying Renno. I don't feel, as some embarrassing people sometimes do, that because it's a French name I have to try and pronounce it as a Frenchman might, Ghghennooh. That would make me sound pretentious. But my rendering is perfectly comprehensible and correct.
So like any normal person I say Mersaydees, Fokesvargen, Citren, Micherlin and so on. No need to adopt an absurd foreign accent but no need either to mangle the words or the names. As in the case of lingerie which is just being mangled with lon or lawngeray.
Not that it matters to most people or much in the great scheme of things.
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>> Micherlin
Except in a French country garage where that wouldn't necessarily be understood. There, it would be Meeshlan if I didn't know how to pronounce the word properly.
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When do you 'anglicise' foreign words? - Armel Coussine
