Non-motoring > Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11
Thread Author: VxFan Replies: 108

 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - VxFan

Ongoing debate.

631296
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 29 Jun 21 at 11:16
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - Kevin
www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/news/19403691.basingstoke-e-doctor-makes-viral-videos-covid-vaccines/
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - zippy
>> www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/news/19403691.basingstoke-e-doctor-makes-viral-videos-covid-vaccines/
>>

There is, at the same time a dogma appearing with regards this virus and any deviation from the official line.

For example, any discussion or research to show or suggest the virus is airborne tends to be shut down as misinformation very quickly.

 A&E Doc countering misinformation - No FM2R

>> For example, any discussion or research to show or suggest the virus is airborne tends
>> to be shut down as misinformation very quickly.


I haven't seen that research. Could you post a link to it? Thanks.
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - zippy
I got it verbally from the horses mouth. A PHD Epidemiologists known to me since 2012 based at a red brick university was told in no uncertain terms that research in to CV19 being airborne will not be tolerated by the university and he will be disciplined if he publishes any such claim.

This person is not prone to exaggeration or some virus hoax merchant and has supported efforts to track the virus and is fully supportive of the vaccine roll out etc. He was just concerned about some of the spread patterns and wanted to do further research.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 29 Jun 21 at 02:53
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - No FM2R
>>was told in no uncertain terms that research in to CV19 being airborne will not be tolerated by the university and he will be disciplined if he publishes any such claim.

So the suggestion is that the University is part of some organised and coordinated effort to prevent any research into the virus which doesn't suit the preferred scenario? And that the University will find some excuse within employment law which will stand up under challenge and public scrutiny to punish him for publishing such research?

Surely someone able to suppress any research anywhere in the world, or even the country, or even in the University system of one country, is an unlikely figure? And surely it wouldn't do much good suppressing it in one university if you could not do so in all?

And, honestly with no offence intended, I wouldn't take one story from one person insisting that his intended research had been prevented, however much I trusted that person, as proof that all research deviating from the 'official' line is suppressed. Even if I knew who was the "official" line owner.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 29 Jun 21 at 01:23
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - Lygonos
www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1030

Largely an opinion piece but I doubt there is an embargo on such research from on-high.

Aerosol/airborne spread (ie talking/singing/breathing) is very likely but to a significantly lesser extent than very infectious diseases eg measles with R(unvaccinated) typically 15+.

Covid's relatively low R suggests aerosol spread is much less effective than being within 2m range (droplet spread) of a virus ejector, and good airflow (even just being outside) appears to reduce the aerosol risk greatly.
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - Terry
Were I managing a limited resource (in this case research) I would be keen to ensure that work was targeted in clearly identified areas.

I would also be keen to ensure that the work undertaken by my team was coordinated and coherent with efforts of other similar research organisations.

I would not want a scatter gun approach where staff could work on those aspects which interested them. I would prefer a confident explicit outcome even if the answer is a negative, rather than a confused "it might be" which would take the research no further foward.
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - smokie
But cautiously following the herd will not result in extending the boundaries of knowledge that much, or bringing in novel approaches.
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - Manatee
Developing a model for airborne infection would not be exactly blue sky research-the most likely explanation is that it has been judged to be poor value, or the size of the opportunity cost.
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - No FM2R
>> Developing a model for airborne infection would not be exactly blue sky research-the most likely generous
>> explanation is that it has been judged to be poor value, or the size of
>> the opportunity cost.


The more likely is that it is utter b*******.
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - Bromptonaut
>> I got it verbally from the horses mouth. A PHD Epidemiologists known to me since
>> 2012 based at a red brick university was told in no uncertain terms that research
>> in to CV19 being airborne will not be tolerated by the university and he will
>> be disciplined if he publishes any such claim.

It could be some sort of plot, sinister or not.

OTOH it could be a case of "that's not what you're funded to be researching, it's contrary to well understood science and of no value, get back on track"
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - Crankcase

>> OTOH it could be a case of "that's not what you're funded to be researching,
>> it's contrary to well understood science and of no value, get back on track"


Isn't that what the Church said to Galileo?
 A&E Doc countering misinformation - misar
>> For example, any discussion or research to show or suggest the virus is airborne tends
>> to be shut down as misinformation very quickly.
>>
This is a bizarre generalisation to make simply because of the level of discussion and reporting of ongoing research widely available in the mainstream scientific literature such as the BMJ. For example:
www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1030
Most likely the "PhD epidemiologist based at a red brick university" had an inappropriate project proposal turned down or was simply misunderstood by his listener.
 Mixed messages - sherlock47
The Times this morning carries 2 reports.
The first indicates a German softening of the EU attitude to UK 2 jab visitors.
The second, (buried inside), a warning that India manufactured AZ vaccines are not approved by the EU and gives the batch numbers. Visitors presenting with NHS 2 jab documentation showing these batch numbers may not be allowed entry.

Scare story? or for real? or waiting for EU decision?
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Fri 2 Jul 21 at 07:50
 Mixed messages - Bromptonaut
>> Scare story? or for real? or waiting for EU decision?

The BBC was carrying the same story about Indian made batches.

Not clear whether EU approval is being witheld or just pending.
 Mixed messages - helicopter
I saw that report this morning which concerned me , I see now though on BBC website that seven EU countries are now accepting the Indian made AZ.

Basically India have said to EU ,you accept our AZ vaccine passport or we do not accept yours.
 Mixed messages - Fullchat
This relates to vaccine batch numbers 4120Z001, 4120Z002, and 4120Z003.

Guess who's second vaccine falls into that catagory? :(
 Mixed messages - No FM2R
It's an Admin process. India should have applied for Emergency Market Authorisation which would have been quickly granted. For some reason they didn't, but now have. So one would assume that this will be shortly resolved.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - sooty123
coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations

Allows you to look at the role out by council %wise, some quite lower numbers across London.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
I sort of hate myself for putting this here, because the numbers are trivial, yet the Daily Mail and its lemmings will make so much of it, along with their equivalents around the world.

Nonetheless it is information, I guess.

Heart inflammation link to Pfizer and Moderna jabs

www.bbc.com/news/health-57781637
 NHS Immunisation Service call - martin aston
I have just been called by the NHS immunisation service. They were checking as to whether I had had my second vaccine shot. I had it back in May. They had no record of it.
I wonder what is going on and whether it suggests there is undercounting of vaccine rates?
It was, as far as I can tell, a genuine call as their telephone number checks out.
 NHS Immunisation Service call - Clk Sec
>> I have just been called by the NHS immunisation service. They were checking as to
>> whether I had had my second vaccine shot. I had it back in May. They
>> had no record of it.

I had a similar call a month or so ago. Easily resolved by emailing a copy of my vaccine card.
 NHS Immunisation Service call - VxFan
>> Easily resolved by emailing a copy of my vaccine card.

My vaccine card only shows the date of my first jab, not my second one. No one bothered completing it when I attended for the second one. Hopefully there is a record somewhere of me having both jabs?
 NHS Immunisation Service call - Pezzer
If you download the NHS App - this documents the dates of your jabs.
 NHS Immunisation Service call - Bromptonaut
>> I wonder what is going on and whether it suggests there is undercounting of vaccine
>> rates?

In an exercise of this scale there are bound to be mistakes, omissions and technical problems.

The Service will run exceptions reports to identify patients with anomalous data so that they can be contacted.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 12 Jul 21 at 13:29
 NHS Immunisation Service call - sherlock47
It was, as far as I can tell, a genuine call as their telephone number checks out.


Careful - it is possible for a calling number to be spoofed.
 NHS Immunisation Service call - martin aston
Yes, fair point Sherlock but I can't see this call being a scam. I would have been suspicious had I not had the second jab and they had tried to get my personal details or charge a fee. I just hope it's not indicative of a wider data issue.
 NHS Immunisation Service call - sooty123
>> I have just been called by the NHS immunisation service. They were checking as to
>> whether I had had my second vaccine shot. I had it back in May. They
>> had no record of it.

No surprise that there's issues, all depends on where you had it from what I can tell. Through your GP and there seems to be fewer issues.*

Our records don't talk to the NHS, so we have it all uploaded manually.


>> I wonder what is going on and whether it suggests there is undercounting of vaccine
>> rates?
>>

I don't think so no, I bet it got recorded at the daily count but not back to your records.


* Just what I've found chatting to people.
 Ivermectin - smokie
Not quite a vaccine but has been touted as a fantastic therapeutic following a large study, and has been installed into government testing programmes (thereby soaking up resources from other studies) as a front runner. It has a lot of "supporters" as the next best thing to a vaccine.

However the Guardian reports that the study is seriously flawed. www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns

Also a study by the Pasteur Institute using it in hamsters has shown it has some anti inflammatory proporids but no anti-viral - i.e. it helps with symptoms but that's about it.


There seems to be a vast amount of resource being misdirected on various potentially useful products - particularly re-purposed ones - which seem to come to nothing. Something like 15k people were put on aspirin ffs, turned out to be no use at all. Whereas clinical trials for novel products from some of the more promising but lesser known companies struggle to find a few hundred. I guess that's unavoidable.
 Ivermectin - Lygonos
Anti-inflammatory properties are probably the more important avenue to prevent severe disease. Severe Covid (to my understanding) is an abnormal immune response rather than an overwhelming infection.

The current first-line treatment for severe Covid is the steroid dexamathsone which has zero infection-fighting ability and is a powerful anti-inflammatory drug.

We give tetracycline (an antibiotic) to people with acne but oddly enough it likely works due to its anti-inflammatory properties rather than its bacteria killing ones.

Antivirals appear to be pretty crap overall for respiratory illnesses (eg Tamiflu, Remdesivir)

But you're absolutely right - a biiig scoop of salt is required when absorbing articles about the next big thing in medicine. As always, follow the money.
 Ivermectin - smokie
So, talking money, a reasonable portion of my portfolio is in Synairgen. www.synairgen.com/

They were developing a nebulised Interferon B to deal with COPD, when along came COVID. Their product, SNG001 and variants, seems to have passed various Phase II studies, the big one being the ACTIV2 one in the States. Everything I read about them seems really positive.

This brings with it the stuff that is missing from these little research companies, which are full of boffins with no marketing, licensing, regulatory, large scale manufacturing etc skills - some financial backing but more importantly assistance scaling up manufacturing and overall governmental support. Word is that some of the large companies are sniffing around these little ones but are reluctant to jump until approvals are gained, which makes sense.

Anyway, I'm sure these kinds of products will be beneficial alongside the vaccines.
 Ivermectin - Terry
Follow the money is probably right.

The career kudos and money that would come from identifying the next big breakthrough would be massive. As well as the knowledgeable, scentifically and professionally credible, there is no doubt a long list of chancers, delusional, and crooked.

Large drugs companies employ people who properly understand the science and put their money where they see the best chances.

This does not mean all smaller organisations or individuals will be incapable - but my money would go with those whose work is highly regarded and funded by large companies and a consensus of the scientifically competent.
 Vaccine - sooty123
www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57866661


Report about those in hospital but chose not to get any vaccination.
 Vaccine - bathtub tom
An interesting conversation with a GP about 'grab a jab'. Said they were setting one up at Primark to vaccinate the cohort who tend not to go elsewhere.

Very diplomatic I thought, but understood what they were saying.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
Sinovac is said to be 57% (ish) effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19.

The Chilean case rate has gone down 85% (ish).

Now obviously I am happy about that, but I wish I knew why.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Terry
Possibly mixing apples and pears.

57% effective at preventing SYMPTOMATIC covid is different to reducing infection or tansmission.

The vaccine may reduce the chance of getting infected by (say) 70%.

If infected the chance of having symptoms is reduced by (say) 57%, and the chances of transmitting the virus if infected by (say) 50%

The reduction in total cases are a reflection of the reproduction rate - if the effect of the vaccine is to reduce R0 below 1 then the number of cases will fall.

 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Lygonos
Perhaps less mildly symptomatic people are stepping forward for a test than before, either because they are vaccinated and think they're ok, or to avoid the hassle of isolating, etc.

ie. there are more undiagnosed cases proportionally now than 6 months ago.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
Eric Clapton refuses to play venues requiring vaccines for concertgoers

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57934379

The silly old fool will do what he's told or pay the contractual penalties.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - sooty123
I doubt he's short of a bob or two to pay up.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
£200m apparently. Which is quite a lot of bobs.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - sooty123
Yeah I guess it is, is that if he pulls out of say one? Or if he kicks the whole thing into touch?
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
Sorry, crossed lines. The £200m is how many bobs he's got, not how many he'd have to pay.

Apologies.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
The last Ed Sheeran Tour grossed $800m for 255 shows. So $3m a show.
The 2019 U2 Tour was $400m, 66 shows, so $6m per show.
McCartney 2015 tour was $300m, 84 shows, $3m per show.

I find those figures amazingly high, but nonetheless that what seems to be the going rates.

I've no clue what Clapton would get stuck for, how much insurance would cover, and what could be negotiated, nor do I know how much of that is door revenue, but one would think it's not a decision to be taken lightly and is going to do his reputation amongst the venues and roadies no good at all.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Terry
$3-6m a show gross is nice to have but they may even lose money on that.

Costs need to be covered:

- band
- support acts
- roadies
- transport between venues
- venue cost
- ticket sales, promotion and admin
- security
- hotels and catering
- insurances
- equipment
- stage and special effects construction
- admin, organisational, legal
- "commissions, management fees, customs clearance, etc"

A major tour is a big business with big costs.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
>>$3-6m a show gross is nice to have but they may even lose money on that.

They don't.

It used to be that tours were loss making but were there to drive album sales.

These days the money in music is so much reduced that the music is there to publicise the tours, which is where they make the real money.

Which works for me. I always felt that music prices were artificially controlled by the music companies. That tower has been torn down making music far more accessible than it has ever been.

And I don't give a stuff what concert tour ticket prices are, it doesn't affect me.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - PeterS
And big ticket prices…in the last few years we saw a few big names at the O2, and some not so big, and without exception ticket costs were in the £150/£200 region without even picking the expensive seats. So on a 20+k seat stadium I can easily see how the gross numbers are so high. And while Kylie and Take That spent a lot on their stage construction and effects, Soft Cell spent rather less ;)
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - BiggerBadderDave
"Soft Cell spent rather less"

He does seem to spent considerably more getting his roots done...

Not bad for a 64 year-old either.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Zero
>> And big ticket prices…in the last few years we saw a few big names at
>> the O2, and some not so big, and without exception ticket costs were in the
>> £150/£200 region without even picking the expensive seats. So on a 20+k seat stadium I
>> can easily see how the gross numbers are so high. And while Kylie and Take
>> That spent a lot on their stage construction and effects, Soft Cell spent rather less
>> ;)

Your a brave fella. admitting you spent good money to see Kyle and Take that. Doesn't excuse such appalling musical taste tho.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - PeterS
Maybe it’s an age thing ;) Not that I was a huge fan in the ‘90s, and like all these things there’s a slug of nostalgia, but they were both very good shows. Not necessarily good music. But good shows. Unlike soft cell, which was both bad music and a shocking show. Pete Tong and the Heritage Orchestra doing Ibiza Classics on the other hand was great music, a fantastic show and a great trip down memory lane :)
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Robin O'Reliant
One really shouldn't giggle -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57958358
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - John Boy
He was a member of Hillsong about which there was an interesting, rather scary documentary recently:
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000y2g7/storyville-hillsong-church-god-goes-viral
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - James Loveless
"One really shouldn't giggle"

Perhaps not. But it's hard not to react to someone who said his religion would protect him (why? How?) and that he trusted the Bible over Dr Anthony Fauci.

AFAIK the Bible says nothing about vaccines or protecting people from pandemics, except that in the Old Testament God occasionally brought plagues against the unrighteous, so perhaps this guy just wasn't righteous enough and God punished him. Perhaps it was a punishment for stupidity.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Zero
>> One really shouldn't giggle -
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57958358

I think its what you call terminally stupid.

I love fate sometimes, its so on point.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - smokie
From USA Today

"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommended Tuesday that fully vaccinated people wear masks indoors in areas with high transmission as COVID-19 cases continue to rise and vaccination rates wane.

"CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said new data shows the delta variant, which accounts for more than 80% of the new infections in the U.S., behaves "uniquely differently'' from its predecessors and could make vaccinated people infectious."


I've already seen this tweeted, along with the suggestion that vaccinated people should be quarantined to protect the unvaxed. You couldn't make it up really.


eu.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/07/27/covid-vaccine-variant-hospitalization-children-mask-mandates/5380480001/
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Zero
As far as I am aware, no-one has doubted that Delta can be caught by those who have vaccinated, but among those vaccinated, hospitalisation rates are a mere fraction of those unvaccinated

I know its a dirty word, but the target and only way out of this is herd immunity. And its working.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 28 Jul 21 at 17:04
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - smokie
Guardian reporting positive tests up by 4000 today after a series of sharp declines.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/28/end-to-quarantine-in-england-for-double-jabbed-is-nailed-on-for-16-august

 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
>>could make vaccinated people infectious."

Who has ever said that vaccinated people were not infectious, whatever the variant?
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Bromptonaut
>> Who has ever said that vaccinated people were not infectious, whatever the variant?

I think there's been proper scientific debate on the subject.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
Indeed there has, and the last I heard there was nothing to say that vaccinated people were not infectious.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - smokie
I never doubted that, my point was really about the anti-vax spin on it.



btw I read there are some underlying factors helping the drop in numbers other than fewer cases. As the schools have broken up there is now no testing in schools (so no positives to report) and I also heard that they have stopped giving away the LFT tests for free to companies so less test there too.

I also read that 40% of worldwide genomic sequencing is happening in the UK, seems a high figure to me but it does mean we are much more aware than any other country of what's going on and more particularly have a better idea of what variants are present/evolving.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
>>btw I read there are some underlying factors helping the drop in numbers other than fewer cases.

Numbers are dropping here as dramatically as they are in the UK and the reasons are equally confusing. We are also opening up, though not quite as quickly as the UK, and our schools have just restarted in person classes.

>>I also read that 40% of worldwide genomic sequencing is happening in the UK

Way back when the "Kent" variant was first mentioned it was said that variants would almost certainly seem to appear in countries which had effective genomic sequencing.

 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
>> my point was really about the anti-vax spin on it.

Re-reading it I see what you mean. It almost implies that someone who has been vaccinated is MORE infectious than someone who has not been.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Zero

>> btw I read there are some underlying factors helping the drop in numbers other than
>> fewer cases. As the schools have broken up there is now no testing in schools
>> (so no positives to report) and I also heard that they have stopped giving away
>> the LFT tests for free to companies so less test there too.


Also because of the sudden enormous spike in NHS app pinging, people have deleted it in large numbers and a large drop in testing.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
I think testing was only down about 10%.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Manatee
I assume somebody is still doing random field testing to keep a picture of the number of people infected but we never see that figure, or so it seems.

Knowing just what is going on has been a problem, more or less, since the start. A lot of people by all accounts have been turning off the app, the ping sensitivity has been changed, the self-administered lateral flow test positives are self-reported (or not), and the test itself tends to return a lot of false negatives in a positive population. An unknown number of milder infections in younger people or in double jabbed older ones go unreported or even unnoticed.

The acid test will be what happens to hospital admissions. They haven't really dropped yet in line with cases, although the last couple of daily reports seem to be down from one story I saw.

I'm as sure as I can be that the boss and I have had it but we have not had a positive test or any diagnosis/treatment. Months afterwards, I described the exhausting coughs we had had between late January and mid-to-late March last year to my heart consultant who said he was sure we'd had covid - at a time when there was very little reported 'in the wild' - i.e. almost no testing. I looked at my diary for January 2020 and sure enough I had been to London twice, using public transport.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - smokie
We're still using the lateral flow tests from time to time, and reporting and also still reporting daily on the app but I know some friends have given up on that.


I saw a tweet earlier that York hospital Covid ward was now full and it hadn't been since some specific past date, but I suspect that the ward is probably now smaller than it has been in the past, so a statement like that isn't that useful, except as a headline and inly if evidenced.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Lygonos
Fat young unvaccinated people take ages to die/recover from bad Covid so can keep wards effectively busier with less raw numbers - was a quicker throughput when it was mostly 80+ yr olds whose mortality rates were >50% within 7 days.

Certainly seen double vaccinated patients at the hospital Covid hub though none I have personally seen have been seriously unwell.



 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Terry
It seems to be the case that those who are vaccinated or have had covid (and therefore antibodies) are less likely to (a) become infected, (b) transmit the infection, and (c) suffer serious outcomes.

There still seems to be some debate as to the percentage reductions in (a), (b) and (c), but it is seems to be substantial. This is herd immunity in action, and the pool of people not yet protected in this way is getting smaller every day.

The reproduction rate of the original virus with no lockdown, masks, or distancing was ~2.5-3.0. The Kent (Alpha) variant was more transmissable, and the Indian (Delta) even more so. Therefore the "unabated" reproduction rate for Delta is (I assume) between 5.0 and 6.0.

The current reproduction rate is estimated at 1.0-1.3. As there are now fairly limited controls over interaction, I can only assume herd immunity is close to being an effective control.

 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - bathtub tom
>> It seems to be the case that those who are vaccinated or have had covid
>> (and therefore antibodies) are less likely to (a) become infected, (b) transmit the infection, and
>> (c) suffer serious outcomes.

Local radio interviewed some twerp who reckoned they'd had covid twice (unconfirmed), but wouldn't have the vaccine because it wasn't safe/untested etc. Said the best protection was from antibodies, having had it. Couldn't answer why they had then had it twice!
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Zero

>> Local radio interviewed some twerp who reckoned they'd had covid twice (unconfirmed), but wouldn't have
>> the vaccine because it wasn't safe/untested etc.

And of course the bats/pangolins/ whoever made sure Corona Virus was tested & safe before they released it into the human population.
 BROMP - No FM2R

www.bbc.com/news/health-58014779
 BROMP - Zero
Seem to recall that medical advice early in the vaccination drive was to exclude pregnant women. In such circumstances its little wonder rates for same are low. One of the major failures by gov and experts during the pandemic has been mixed messaging* which cis causal to most of the major problems. You can understand why mind you, with little practical experience of such things by gov and medical experts.


*Which is going to screw Australia, the worse exponents of this, rigid.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 1 Aug 21 at 09:14
 BROMP - Fursty Ferret
>>>> Local radio interviewed some twerp who reckoned they'd had covid twice (unconfirmed), but wouldn't have
>>>> the vaccine because it wasn't safe/untested etc.

>> And of course the bats/pangolins/ whoever made sure Corona Virus was tested & safe
>> before they released it into the human population.

Colleague at work is making exactly the same argument.
 BROMP - Fullchat
I'm sure he got some airtime on LBC as well.
 BROMP - Bromptonaut
>>
>> www.bbc.com/news/health-58014779

Daughter got her second (the first was before she knew she was pregnant) as soon as the relevant vaccine was cleared.

As others observe it's not really surprising that the public show (an excess of?) caution when official advice changes.

Not convinced that what's happened is something that can be put down to careless mixed messaging. There will always be bumps along the way with a new medicine; we've seen that with Pfizer and very rare brain bleeds. Additionally there was a demand to get COVID vaccines in circulation as soon as possible. That may lead to it delay in approving it for some cohorts; pregnant women will be just one of them.

Mrs B puts some of it down to a want of science education.
 BROMP - Terry
The vaccine and pregnancy issue should be informed by the best current science. Potentially very complex as it impacts child, mother, and may depend on the stage of pregnancy.

More widely I don't understand the fuss being made to get the unvaccinated jabbed. Free burgers and taxis are wholly unnecessary, fines and imprisonment seems over the top, ridicule may work but could leave a nasty legacy.

Imagine a crowded restaurant, club, bar with 100 heaving sweaty adults (not a nice image!). 80 have been vaccinated, 20 not. In the room are 2 who have the virus (asymptomatic).

At greatest risk - obviously 20 who have not been vaccinated. By getting infected they also gain some level of natural immunity (assuming all goes well)! If not, their problem.

The vaccinated if infected will likely have few/minor symptoms - unlikely to be hospitalised.

Conclusion - strong advice to get vaccinated - their failure do so is their problem.
 BROMP - Netsur
Correct to a point but the more a virus spreads, as in your example, the greater the chance of it mutating and being resistant to vaccines and the antibodies the previously infected may have.

Hence the desire to achieve herd immunity via vaccination rather than infection. Countries with low rates of vaccination and low rates of covid may fare worst in the long run. Australia and NZ are probably going about it totally the wrong way now.
 3rd Jab for over 50s - Falkirk Bairn
Starting in September the over 50s are to get a booster CV Jab in one arm & a Flu Jab in the other.

Pharmacies are to be much more involved than for the first CV jabs.
 3rd Jab for over 50s - Dog
I've not even had my 1st yet, but I'm thinking of going for a kebab.
 Nephew in Hospital - zippy
Male aged 26. Fit as a butchers dog - running, gym, football etc. etc.

Had the Pfizer Jab last week. In hospital earlier today due to difficult breathing.

He was "pinged" just after getting the jab and has tested positive.

The hospitalisation is nothing to do with the jab except that it's obviously not instant or indeed backdated protection and it is suspected he caught it last week at work.

It was Miss Z's last day at that hospital today, she did catch a member of the team from the red ward who says nothing to worry about as it's a precautionary admittance - he's on CPAP apparently (hope I've got that right as Miss Z's gone to bed so can't ask her).

Any young ones in your family - get them jabbed. Master Z was dragged to his first last week. Dragged not because of any reluctance but he's 22 and everything is just a chore :-|

 Nephew in Hospital - No FM2R
In Chile they quote 14 days for protection from a Pfizer jab. Your guess as as good as mine as to how much science or empirical evidence that's based on.

Both my children have been jabbed.

Actually now I think about it I realise that other than one 'friend' I had to ditch, I don't know anybody who is not vaccinated.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 6 Aug 21 at 01:57
 Nephew in Hospital - zippy
>> Both my children have been jabbed.
>>

Miss Z was vaccinated fairly early in the cycle last year due to her job but not as early as some others, a queue is a queue after all.

>> Actually now I think about it I realise that other than one 'friend' I had
>> to ditch, I don't know anybody who is not vaccinated.
>>

Everyone else I know, friends and family have been or are keen to jabbed at the earliest possibility without queue jumping unless for medical or job reasons. Unfortunately that means Master Z's turn has just come around.
 Nephew in Hospital - Mapmaker
I was talking last week to a 17-year-old girl. She wouldn't approach anybody closer than 6', and wouldn't go indoors with anybody. She said she was deperately waiting to be old enough to have the jab, and she had friends in the same position. It did seem a bit unfair.
 Nephew in Hospital - Duncan
>> It did seem a bit unfair.
>>

Which bit?

The fact that she was reacting disproprtionally, or the fact that she was being treated exactly the same as all other 17 year olds?
 Nephew in Hospital - Falkirk Bairn
A 13 year old grandson, in US, had his 2 x jabs about 3 months ago - Moderna - no issues other than a sore arm for a day or 2.
 Nephew in Hospital - No FM2R
>> I was talking last week to a 17-year-old girl. She wouldn't approach anybody closer than
>> 6', and wouldn't go indoors with anybody. She said she was desperately waiting to be
>> old enough to have the jab, and she had friends in the same position. It
>> did seem a bit unfair.


My 16yr old was very unsettled for the whole time she was the only one unvaccinated and so just preferred to steer clear of most things and could be quite vitriolic on the occasions she encountered someone either not wearing their mask or wearing it badly.

Most of her class were the same. They are all now vaccinated.

It did seem unfair that we had a chunk of population quite desperate to be vaccinated who were unable to get it but still needed to go out and lead a limited life.

I guess just a product of inevitable prioritisation of limited supplies.
 Anti vaxxer dies - Bobby
Darwin Award???
www.thesun.co.uk/news/15793720/family-anti-vaxxer-died-covid-say-dont-make-mistake/


 Anti vaxxer dies - Duncan
James O'Brian on LBC this morning was discussing this very thing. seems quite a few people have said 'it doesn't exist', refused the vaccine and later died. Statistically bound to happen.
 Anti vaxxer dies - No FM2R
If the vaccine has a material role in keeping people alive then inevitably many of those without it will die.

Interesting though that the sad-git anti-vaxxers seize on every conceivable situation which offers a glimmer of light on their prejudices but remain entirely able to totally ignore such cases secure in the knowledge that they have done their research by watching videos on YouTube and everything else is made up.

Like that worthless t*** Smurf, for example.

I swear one doesn't need to go to all this trouble of phone scamming people individually, one could just put a single video on YouTube and gather masses of idiots all in one go.
 Anti vaxxer dies - No FM2R
>> Darwin Award???
>> www.thesun.co.uk/news/15793720/family-anti-vaxxer-died-covid-say-dont-make-mistake/

It's sad though, isn't it. An otherwise seemingly decent bloke who is not only lead astray by the YouTube scientists but then in turn misleads others.

That's why gutter-occupants such as Smurf and many other similar bugs should not be permitted a vehicle for their lies, simply because of the real harm it causes to the easily lead and vulnerable.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 6 Aug 21 at 20:31
 Anti vaxxer dies - Biggles
The media could just as easily be publishing stories about vaccinated people who have died of covid. They choose not to though.
 Anti vaxxer dies - No FM2R
IKR, it's almost like it doesn't happen anything like as often because they're, well you know, vaccinated. Almost like the vaccination stops 90+% of the deaths.

I'm curious though, are you vaccinated or are you one of *those*? Not that there's any reason for you to tell me, I just wondered.
 Anti vaxxer dies - Kevin
www.rotherhambugle.com/2020/12/03/beermonster1984-emerges-as-uks-number-one-expert-on-vaccine-safety/
 CNN fires unvaccinated employees for going to.... - No FM2R
...the office

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-58112125
 Boosters and flu jabs - Clk Sec
I had a text from my local surgery a few days ago to let me know that I would soon be able to attend a nearby hotel for the booster covid and annual flu jabs.

Two sore arms, possibly.
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 8 Aug 21 at 09:46
 Boosters and flu jabs - Zero
>> Two sore arms, possibly.

I would guess, at some point, there will be a combined Flu/covid single annual booster.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 9 Aug 21 at 13:10
  Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Robin O'Reliant
Oh dear...

www.thesun.co.uk/news/15816994/anti-vaxx-mum-dad-brother-die-covid/
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 9 Aug 21 at 13:09
  Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Duncan
More

www.thesun.co.uk/news/15774574/mum-dies-covid-nervous-vaccine/?rec_article=true
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 9 Aug 21 at 13:09
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
Is the J&J Janssen vaccine available in the UK? I know it is approved, but can one actually get it?
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - smokie
I believe we still only use AZ, Pfizer and Moderna
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
No single jab vaccinations?
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - smokie
Not yet
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
OK, that's a pity, however it turns out I can get the jab in either Berlin or Vienna and I shall be in both over the next couple of weeks, so I shall do that.

#1 daughter has compiled a list of German and Austrian Art Museums for us to visit. My pleas to only choose those with a close-by bar for me to wait in have been ignored.

Pity Czech R. is still Amber or I would have done Berlin, Prague, Vienna by road over a few days
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 5 Sep 21 at 17:06
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
A rather inciteful comment on CNN this morning;

"Showing anti-vaxxers and other conspiracy theorists facts, proof and evidence is not, and never will be, sufficient to change their minds"

Quite true, but very depressing.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
I would like to strongly point out that is how auto correct spells "insightful", NOT how I do it.
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - James Loveless
Inciteful and insightful are different words, with different meanings.

I'm not sure what is "inciteful" (= tending to incite) about the material referred to. Maybe insightful (= showing a deep understanding) is the better word.
Last edited by: James Loveless on Tue 14 Sep 21 at 13:54
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - No FM2R
I am aware, hence my comment.

Blame my phone autocorrect which has Spanish, Portuguese, German and Italian loaded into it, as well as English. It gets headaches, especially when I'm not paying attention.+
 Coronavirus Vaccine - Volume 11 - Rudedog
Just had booster.

Sitting waiting for my 15 minutes while I write this.

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