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Ongoing debate.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 12 Nov 21 at 02:52
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>> www.basingstokegazette.co.uk/news/19403691.basingstoke-e-doctor-makes-viral-videos-covid-vaccines/
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There is, at the same time a dogma appearing with regards this virus and any deviation from the official line.
For example, any discussion or research to show or suggest the virus is airborne tends to be shut down as misinformation very quickly.
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>> For example, any discussion or research to show or suggest the virus is airborne tends
>> to be shut down as misinformation very quickly.
I haven't seen that research. Could you post a link to it? Thanks.
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I got it verbally from the horses mouth. A PHD Epidemiologists known to me since 2012 based at a red brick university was told in no uncertain terms that research in to CV19 being airborne will not be tolerated by the university and he will be disciplined if he publishes any such claim.
This person is not prone to exaggeration or some virus hoax merchant and has supported efforts to track the virus and is fully supportive of the vaccine roll out etc. He was just concerned about some of the spread patterns and wanted to do further research.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 29 Jun 21 at 02:53
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>>was told in no uncertain terms that research in to CV19 being airborne will not be tolerated by the university and he will be disciplined if he publishes any such claim.
So the suggestion is that the University is part of some organised and coordinated effort to prevent any research into the virus which doesn't suit the preferred scenario? And that the University will find some excuse within employment law which will stand up under challenge and public scrutiny to punish him for publishing such research?
Surely someone able to suppress any research anywhere in the world, or even the country, or even in the University system of one country, is an unlikely figure? And surely it wouldn't do much good suppressing it in one university if you could not do so in all?
And, honestly with no offence intended, I wouldn't take one story from one person insisting that his intended research had been prevented, however much I trusted that person, as proof that all research deviating from the 'official' line is suppressed. Even if I knew who was the "official" line owner.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 29 Jun 21 at 01:23
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www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1030
Largely an opinion piece but I doubt there is an embargo on such research from on-high.
Aerosol/airborne spread (ie talking/singing/breathing) is very likely but to a significantly lesser extent than very infectious diseases eg measles with R(unvaccinated) typically 15+.
Covid's relatively low R suggests aerosol spread is much less effective than being within 2m range (droplet spread) of a virus ejector, and good airflow (even just being outside) appears to reduce the aerosol risk greatly.
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Were I managing a limited resource (in this case research) I would be keen to ensure that work was targeted in clearly identified areas.
I would also be keen to ensure that the work undertaken by my team was coordinated and coherent with efforts of other similar research organisations.
I would not want a scatter gun approach where staff could work on those aspects which interested them. I would prefer a confident explicit outcome even if the answer is a negative, rather than a confused "it might be" which would take the research no further foward.
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But cautiously following the herd will not result in extending the boundaries of knowledge that much, or bringing in novel approaches.
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Developing a model for airborne infection would not be exactly blue sky research-the most likely explanation is that it has been judged to be poor value, or the size of the opportunity cost.
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>> Developing a model for airborne infection would not be exactly blue sky research-the most likely generous
>> explanation is that it has been judged to be poor value, or the size of
>> the opportunity cost.
The more likely is that it is utter b*******.
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>> I got it verbally from the horses mouth. A PHD Epidemiologists known to me since
>> 2012 based at a red brick university was told in no uncertain terms that research
>> in to CV19 being airborne will not be tolerated by the university and he will
>> be disciplined if he publishes any such claim.
It could be some sort of plot, sinister or not.
OTOH it could be a case of "that's not what you're funded to be researching, it's contrary to well understood science and of no value, get back on track"
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>> OTOH it could be a case of "that's not what you're funded to be researching,
>> it's contrary to well understood science and of no value, get back on track"
Isn't that what the Church said to Galileo?
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>> For example, any discussion or research to show or suggest the virus is airborne tends
>> to be shut down as misinformation very quickly.
>>
This is a bizarre generalisation to make simply because of the level of discussion and reporting of ongoing research widely available in the mainstream scientific literature such as the BMJ. For example:
www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1030
Most likely the "PhD epidemiologist based at a red brick university" had an inappropriate project proposal turned down or was simply misunderstood by his listener.
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The Times this morning carries 2 reports.
The first indicates a German softening of the EU attitude to UK 2 jab visitors.
The second, (buried inside), a warning that India manufactured AZ vaccines are not approved by the EU and gives the batch numbers. Visitors presenting with NHS 2 jab documentation showing these batch numbers may not be allowed entry.
Scare story? or for real? or waiting for EU decision?
Last edited by: sherlock47 on Fri 2 Jul 21 at 07:50
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>> Scare story? or for real? or waiting for EU decision?
The BBC was carrying the same story about Indian made batches.
Not clear whether EU approval is being witheld or just pending.
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I saw that report this morning which concerned me , I see now though on BBC website that seven EU countries are now accepting the Indian made AZ.
Basically India have said to EU ,you accept our AZ vaccine passport or we do not accept yours.
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This relates to vaccine batch numbers 4120Z001, 4120Z002, and 4120Z003.
Guess who's second vaccine falls into that catagory? :(
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It's an Admin process. India should have applied for Emergency Market Authorisation which would have been quickly granted. For some reason they didn't, but now have. So one would assume that this will be shortly resolved.
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coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map/vaccinations
Allows you to look at the role out by council %wise, some quite lower numbers across London.
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I sort of hate myself for putting this here, because the numbers are trivial, yet the Daily Mail and its lemmings will make so much of it, along with their equivalents around the world.
Nonetheless it is information, I guess.
Heart inflammation link to Pfizer and Moderna jabs
www.bbc.com/news/health-57781637
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I have just been called by the NHS immunisation service. They were checking as to whether I had had my second vaccine shot. I had it back in May. They had no record of it.
I wonder what is going on and whether it suggests there is undercounting of vaccine rates?
It was, as far as I can tell, a genuine call as their telephone number checks out.
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>> I have just been called by the NHS immunisation service. They were checking as to
>> whether I had had my second vaccine shot. I had it back in May. They
>> had no record of it.
I had a similar call a month or so ago. Easily resolved by emailing a copy of my vaccine card.
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>> Easily resolved by emailing a copy of my vaccine card.
My vaccine card only shows the date of my first jab, not my second one. No one bothered completing it when I attended for the second one. Hopefully there is a record somewhere of me having both jabs?
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If you download the NHS App - this documents the dates of your jabs.
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>> I wonder what is going on and whether it suggests there is undercounting of vaccine
>> rates?
In an exercise of this scale there are bound to be mistakes, omissions and technical problems.
The Service will run exceptions reports to identify patients with anomalous data so that they can be contacted.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 12 Jul 21 at 13:29
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It was, as far as I can tell, a genuine call as their telephone number checks out.
Careful - it is possible for a calling number to be spoofed.
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Yes, fair point Sherlock but I can't see this call being a scam. I would have been suspicious had I not had the second jab and they had tried to get my personal details or charge a fee. I just hope it's not indicative of a wider data issue.
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>> I have just been called by the NHS immunisation service. They were checking as to
>> whether I had had my second vaccine shot. I had it back in May. They
>> had no record of it.
No surprise that there's issues, all depends on where you had it from what I can tell. Through your GP and there seems to be fewer issues.*
Our records don't talk to the NHS, so we have it all uploaded manually.
>> I wonder what is going on and whether it suggests there is undercounting of vaccine
>> rates?
>>
I don't think so no, I bet it got recorded at the daily count but not back to your records.
* Just what I've found chatting to people.
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Not quite a vaccine but has been touted as a fantastic therapeutic following a large study, and has been installed into government testing programmes (thereby soaking up resources from other studies) as a front runner. It has a lot of "supporters" as the next best thing to a vaccine.
However the Guardian reports that the study is seriously flawed. www.theguardian.com/science/2021/jul/16/huge-study-supporting-ivermectin-as-covid-treatment-withdrawn-over-ethical-concerns
Also a study by the Pasteur Institute using it in hamsters has shown it has some anti inflammatory proporids but no anti-viral - i.e. it helps with symptoms but that's about it.
There seems to be a vast amount of resource being misdirected on various potentially useful products - particularly re-purposed ones - which seem to come to nothing. Something like 15k people were put on aspirin ffs, turned out to be no use at all. Whereas clinical trials for novel products from some of the more promising but lesser known companies struggle to find a few hundred. I guess that's unavoidable.
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Anti-inflammatory properties are probably the more important avenue to prevent severe disease. Severe Covid (to my understanding) is an abnormal immune response rather than an overwhelming infection.
The current first-line treatment for severe Covid is the steroid dexamathsone which has zero infection-fighting ability and is a powerful anti-inflammatory drug.
We give tetracycline (an antibiotic) to people with acne but oddly enough it likely works due to its anti-inflammatory properties rather than its bacteria killing ones.
Antivirals appear to be pretty crap overall for respiratory illnesses (eg Tamiflu, Remdesivir)
But you're absolutely right - a biiig scoop of salt is required when absorbing articles about the next big thing in medicine. As always, follow the money.
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So, talking money, a reasonable portion of my portfolio is in Synairgen. www.synairgen.com/
They were developing a nebulised Interferon B to deal with COPD, when along came COVID. Their product, SNG001 and variants, seems to have passed various Phase II studies, the big one being the ACTIV2 one in the States. Everything I read about them seems really positive.
This brings with it the stuff that is missing from these little research companies, which are full of boffins with no marketing, licensing, regulatory, large scale manufacturing etc skills - some financial backing but more importantly assistance scaling up manufacturing and overall governmental support. Word is that some of the large companies are sniffing around these little ones but are reluctant to jump until approvals are gained, which makes sense.
Anyway, I'm sure these kinds of products will be beneficial alongside the vaccines.
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Follow the money is probably right.
The career kudos and money that would come from identifying the next big breakthrough would be massive. As well as the knowledgeable, scentifically and professionally credible, there is no doubt a long list of chancers, delusional, and crooked.
Large drugs companies employ people who properly understand the science and put their money where they see the best chances.
This does not mean all smaller organisations or individuals will be incapable - but my money would go with those whose work is highly regarded and funded by large companies and a consensus of the scientifically competent.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-57866661
Report about those in hospital but chose not to get any vaccination.
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An interesting conversation with a GP about 'grab a jab'. Said they were setting one up at Primark to vaccinate the cohort who tend not to go elsewhere.
Very diplomatic I thought, but understood what they were saying.
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Sinovac is said to be 57% (ish) effective at preventing symptomatic COVID-19.
The Chilean case rate has gone down 85% (ish).
Now obviously I am happy about that, but I wish I knew why.
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Possibly mixing apples and pears.
57% effective at preventing SYMPTOMATIC covid is different to reducing infection or tansmission.
The vaccine may reduce the chance of getting infected by (say) 70%.
If infected the chance of having symptoms is reduced by (say) 57%, and the chances of transmitting the virus if infected by (say) 50%
The reduction in total cases are a reflection of the reproduction rate - if the effect of the vaccine is to reduce R0 below 1 then the number of cases will fall.
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Perhaps less mildly symptomatic people are stepping forward for a test than before, either because they are vaccinated and think they're ok, or to avoid the hassle of isolating, etc.
ie. there are more undiagnosed cases proportionally now than 6 months ago.
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Eric Clapton refuses to play venues requiring vaccines for concertgoers
www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57934379
The silly old fool will do what he's told or pay the contractual penalties.
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I doubt he's short of a bob or two to pay up.
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£200m apparently. Which is quite a lot of bobs.
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Yeah I guess it is, is that if he pulls out of say one? Or if he kicks the whole thing into touch?
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Sorry, crossed lines. The £200m is how many bobs he's got, not how many he'd have to pay.
Apologies.
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The last Ed Sheeran Tour grossed $800m for 255 shows. So $3m a show.
The 2019 U2 Tour was $400m, 66 shows, so $6m per show.
McCartney 2015 tour was $300m, 84 shows, $3m per show.
I find those figures amazingly high, but nonetheless that what seems to be the going rates.
I've no clue what Clapton would get stuck for, how much insurance would cover, and what could be negotiated, nor do I know how much of that is door revenue, but one would think it's not a decision to be taken lightly and is going to do his reputation amongst the venues and roadies no good at all.
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$3-6m a show gross is nice to have but they may even lose money on that.
Costs need to be covered:
- band
- support acts
- roadies
- transport between venues
- venue cost
- ticket sales, promotion and admin
- security
- hotels and catering
- insurances
- equipment
- stage and special effects construction
- admin, organisational, legal
- "commissions, management fees, customs clearance, etc"
A major tour is a big business with big costs.
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>>$3-6m a show gross is nice to have but they may even lose money on that.
They don't.
It used to be that tours were loss making but were there to drive album sales.
These days the money in music is so much reduced that the music is there to publicise the tours, which is where they make the real money.
Which works for me. I always felt that music prices were artificially controlled by the music companies. That tower has been torn down making music far more accessible than it has ever been.
And I don't give a stuff what concert tour ticket prices are, it doesn't affect me.
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And big ticket prices…in the last few years we saw a few big names at the O2, and some not so big, and without exception ticket costs were in the £150/£200 region without even picking the expensive seats. So on a 20+k seat stadium I can easily see how the gross numbers are so high. And while Kylie and Take That spent a lot on their stage construction and effects, Soft Cell spent rather less ;)
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"Soft Cell spent rather less"
He does seem to spent considerably more getting his roots done...
Not bad for a 64 year-old either.
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>> And big ticket prices…in the last few years we saw a few big names at
>> the O2, and some not so big, and without exception ticket costs were in the
>> £150/£200 region without even picking the expensive seats. So on a 20+k seat stadium I
>> can easily see how the gross numbers are so high. And while Kylie and Take
>> That spent a lot on their stage construction and effects, Soft Cell spent rather less
>> ;)
Your a brave fella. admitting you spent good money to see Kyle and Take that. Doesn't excuse such appalling musical taste tho.
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Maybe it’s an age thing ;) Not that I was a huge fan in the ‘90s, and like all these things there’s a slug of nostalgia, but they were both very good shows. Not necessarily good music. But good shows. Unlike soft cell, which was both bad music and a shocking show. Pete Tong and the Heritage Orchestra doing Ibiza Classics on the other hand was great music, a fantastic show and a great trip down memory lane :)
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He was a member of Hillsong about which there was an interesting, rather scary documentary recently:
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000y2g7/storyville-hillsong-church-god-goes-viral
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"One really shouldn't giggle"
Perhaps not. But it's hard not to react to someone who said his religion would protect him (why? How?) and that he trusted the Bible over Dr Anthony Fauci.
AFAIK the Bible says nothing about vaccines or protecting people from pandemics, except that in the Old Testament God occasionally brought plagues against the unrighteous, so perhaps this guy just wasn't righteous enough and God punished him. Perhaps it was a punishment for stupidity.
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>> One really shouldn't giggle -
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57958358
I think its what you call terminally stupid.
I love fate sometimes, its so on point.
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From USA Today
"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recommended Tuesday that fully vaccinated people wear masks indoors in areas with high transmission as COVID-19 cases continue to rise and vaccination rates wane.
"CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said new data shows the delta variant, which accounts for more than 80% of the new infections in the U.S., behaves "uniquely differently'' from its predecessors and could make vaccinated people infectious."
I've already seen this tweeted, along with the suggestion that vaccinated people should be quarantined to protect the unvaxed. You couldn't make it up really.
eu.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/07/27/covid-vaccine-variant-hospitalization-children-mask-mandates/5380480001/
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As far as I am aware, no-one has doubted that Delta can be caught by those who have vaccinated, but among those vaccinated, hospitalisation rates are a mere fraction of those unvaccinated
I know its a dirty word, but the target and only way out of this is herd immunity. And its working.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 28 Jul 21 at 17:04
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>>could make vaccinated people infectious."
Who has ever said that vaccinated people were not infectious, whatever the variant?
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>> Who has ever said that vaccinated people were not infectious, whatever the variant?
I think there's been proper scientific debate on the subject.
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Indeed there has, and the last I heard there was nothing to say that vaccinated people were not infectious.
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I never doubted that, my point was really about the anti-vax spin on it.
btw I read there are some underlying factors helping the drop in numbers other than fewer cases. As the schools have broken up there is now no testing in schools (so no positives to report) and I also heard that they have stopped giving away the LFT tests for free to companies so less test there too.
I also read that 40% of worldwide genomic sequencing is happening in the UK, seems a high figure to me but it does mean we are much more aware than any other country of what's going on and more particularly have a better idea of what variants are present/evolving.
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>>btw I read there are some underlying factors helping the drop in numbers other than fewer cases.
Numbers are dropping here as dramatically as they are in the UK and the reasons are equally confusing. We are also opening up, though not quite as quickly as the UK, and our schools have just restarted in person classes.
>>I also read that 40% of worldwide genomic sequencing is happening in the UK
Way back when the "Kent" variant was first mentioned it was said that variants would almost certainly seem to appear in countries which had effective genomic sequencing.
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>> my point was really about the anti-vax spin on it.
Re-reading it I see what you mean. It almost implies that someone who has been vaccinated is MORE infectious than someone who has not been.
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>> btw I read there are some underlying factors helping the drop in numbers other than
>> fewer cases. As the schools have broken up there is now no testing in schools
>> (so no positives to report) and I also heard that they have stopped giving away
>> the LFT tests for free to companies so less test there too.
Also because of the sudden enormous spike in NHS app pinging, people have deleted it in large numbers and a large drop in testing.
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I think testing was only down about 10%.
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I assume somebody is still doing random field testing to keep a picture of the number of people infected but we never see that figure, or so it seems.
Knowing just what is going on has been a problem, more or less, since the start. A lot of people by all accounts have been turning off the app, the ping sensitivity has been changed, the self-administered lateral flow test positives are self-reported (or not), and the test itself tends to return a lot of false negatives in a positive population. An unknown number of milder infections in younger people or in double jabbed older ones go unreported or even unnoticed.
The acid test will be what happens to hospital admissions. They haven't really dropped yet in line with cases, although the last couple of daily reports seem to be down from one story I saw.
I'm as sure as I can be that the boss and I have had it but we have not had a positive test or any diagnosis/treatment. Months afterwards, I described the exhausting coughs we had had between late January and mid-to-late March last year to my heart consultant who said he was sure we'd had covid - at a time when there was very little reported 'in the wild' - i.e. almost no testing. I looked at my diary for January 2020 and sure enough I had been to London twice, using public transport.
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We're still using the lateral flow tests from time to time, and reporting and also still reporting daily on the app but I know some friends have given up on that.
I saw a tweet earlier that York hospital Covid ward was now full and it hadn't been since some specific past date, but I suspect that the ward is probably now smaller than it has been in the past, so a statement like that isn't that useful, except as a headline and inly if evidenced.
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Fat young unvaccinated people take ages to die/recover from bad Covid so can keep wards effectively busier with less raw numbers - was a quicker throughput when it was mostly 80+ yr olds whose mortality rates were >50% within 7 days.
Certainly seen double vaccinated patients at the hospital Covid hub though none I have personally seen have been seriously unwell.
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It seems to be the case that those who are vaccinated or have had covid (and therefore antibodies) are less likely to (a) become infected, (b) transmit the infection, and (c) suffer serious outcomes.
There still seems to be some debate as to the percentage reductions in (a), (b) and (c), but it is seems to be substantial. This is herd immunity in action, and the pool of people not yet protected in this way is getting smaller every day.
The reproduction rate of the original virus with no lockdown, masks, or distancing was ~2.5-3.0. The Kent (Alpha) variant was more transmissable, and the Indian (Delta) even more so. Therefore the "unabated" reproduction rate for Delta is (I assume) between 5.0 and 6.0.
The current reproduction rate is estimated at 1.0-1.3. As there are now fairly limited controls over interaction, I can only assume herd immunity is close to being an effective control.
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>> It seems to be the case that those who are vaccinated or have had covid
>> (and therefore antibodies) are less likely to (a) become infected, (b) transmit the infection, and
>> (c) suffer serious outcomes.
Local radio interviewed some twerp who reckoned they'd had covid twice (unconfirmed), but wouldn't have the vaccine because it wasn't safe/untested etc. Said the best protection was from antibodies, having had it. Couldn't answer why they had then had it twice!
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>> Local radio interviewed some twerp who reckoned they'd had covid twice (unconfirmed), but wouldn't have
>> the vaccine because it wasn't safe/untested etc.
And of course the bats/pangolins/ whoever made sure Corona Virus was tested & safe before they released it into the human population.
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Seem to recall that medical advice early in the vaccination drive was to exclude pregnant women. In such circumstances its little wonder rates for same are low. One of the major failures by gov and experts during the pandemic has been mixed messaging* which cis causal to most of the major problems. You can understand why mind you, with little practical experience of such things by gov and medical experts.
*Which is going to screw Australia, the worse exponents of this, rigid.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 1 Aug 21 at 09:14
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>>>> Local radio interviewed some twerp who reckoned they'd had covid twice (unconfirmed), but wouldn't have
>>>> the vaccine because it wasn't safe/untested etc.
>> And of course the bats/pangolins/ whoever made sure Corona Virus was tested & safe
>> before they released it into the human population.
Colleague at work is making exactly the same argument.
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I'm sure he got some airtime on LBC as well.
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>>
>> www.bbc.com/news/health-58014779
Daughter got her second (the first was before she knew she was pregnant) as soon as the relevant vaccine was cleared.
As others observe it's not really surprising that the public show (an excess of?) caution when official advice changes.
Not convinced that what's happened is something that can be put down to careless mixed messaging. There will always be bumps along the way with a new medicine; we've seen that with Pfizer and very rare brain bleeds. Additionally there was a demand to get COVID vaccines in circulation as soon as possible. That may lead to it delay in approving it for some cohorts; pregnant women will be just one of them.
Mrs B puts some of it down to a want of science education.
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The vaccine and pregnancy issue should be informed by the best current science. Potentially very complex as it impacts child, mother, and may depend on the stage of pregnancy.
More widely I don't understand the fuss being made to get the unvaccinated jabbed. Free burgers and taxis are wholly unnecessary, fines and imprisonment seems over the top, ridicule may work but could leave a nasty legacy.
Imagine a crowded restaurant, club, bar with 100 heaving sweaty adults (not a nice image!). 80 have been vaccinated, 20 not. In the room are 2 who have the virus (asymptomatic).
At greatest risk - obviously 20 who have not been vaccinated. By getting infected they also gain some level of natural immunity (assuming all goes well)! If not, their problem.
The vaccinated if infected will likely have few/minor symptoms - unlikely to be hospitalised.
Conclusion - strong advice to get vaccinated - their failure do so is their problem.
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Correct to a point but the more a virus spreads, as in your example, the greater the chance of it mutating and being resistant to vaccines and the antibodies the previously infected may have.
Hence the desire to achieve herd immunity via vaccination rather than infection. Countries with low rates of vaccination and low rates of covid may fare worst in the long run. Australia and NZ are probably going about it totally the wrong way now.
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Starting in September the over 50s are to get a booster CV Jab in one arm & a Flu Jab in the other.
Pharmacies are to be much more involved than for the first CV jabs.
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I've not even had my 1st yet, but I'm thinking of going for a kebab.
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Male aged 26. Fit as a butchers dog - running, gym, football etc. etc.
Had the Pfizer Jab last week. In hospital earlier today due to difficult breathing.
He was "pinged" just after getting the jab and has tested positive.
The hospitalisation is nothing to do with the jab except that it's obviously not instant or indeed backdated protection and it is suspected he caught it last week at work.
It was Miss Z's last day at that hospital today, she did catch a member of the team from the red ward who says nothing to worry about as it's a precautionary admittance - he's on CPAP apparently (hope I've got that right as Miss Z's gone to bed so can't ask her).
Any young ones in your family - get them jabbed. Master Z was dragged to his first last week. Dragged not because of any reluctance but he's 22 and everything is just a chore :-|
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In Chile they quote 14 days for protection from a Pfizer jab. Your guess as as good as mine as to how much science or empirical evidence that's based on.
Both my children have been jabbed.
Actually now I think about it I realise that other than one 'friend' I had to ditch, I don't know anybody who is not vaccinated.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 6 Aug 21 at 01:57
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>> Both my children have been jabbed.
>>
Miss Z was vaccinated fairly early in the cycle last year due to her job but not as early as some others, a queue is a queue after all.
>> Actually now I think about it I realise that other than one 'friend' I had
>> to ditch, I don't know anybody who is not vaccinated.
>>
Everyone else I know, friends and family have been or are keen to jabbed at the earliest possibility without queue jumping unless for medical or job reasons. Unfortunately that means Master Z's turn has just come around.
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I was talking last week to a 17-year-old girl. She wouldn't approach anybody closer than 6', and wouldn't go indoors with anybody. She said she was deperately waiting to be old enough to have the jab, and she had friends in the same position. It did seem a bit unfair.
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>> It did seem a bit unfair.
>>
Which bit?
The fact that she was reacting disproprtionally, or the fact that she was being treated exactly the same as all other 17 year olds?
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A 13 year old grandson, in US, had his 2 x jabs about 3 months ago - Moderna - no issues other than a sore arm for a day or 2.
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>> I was talking last week to a 17-year-old girl. She wouldn't approach anybody closer than
>> 6', and wouldn't go indoors with anybody. She said she was desperately waiting to be
>> old enough to have the jab, and she had friends in the same position. It
>> did seem a bit unfair.
My 16yr old was very unsettled for the whole time she was the only one unvaccinated and so just preferred to steer clear of most things and could be quite vitriolic on the occasions she encountered someone either not wearing their mask or wearing it badly.
Most of her class were the same. They are all now vaccinated.
It did seem unfair that we had a chunk of population quite desperate to be vaccinated who were unable to get it but still needed to go out and lead a limited life.
I guess just a product of inevitable prioritisation of limited supplies.
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James O'Brian on LBC this morning was discussing this very thing. seems quite a few people have said 'it doesn't exist', refused the vaccine and later died. Statistically bound to happen.
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If the vaccine has a material role in keeping people alive then inevitably many of those without it will die.
Interesting though that the sad-git anti-vaxxers seize on every conceivable situation which offers a glimmer of light on their prejudices but remain entirely able to totally ignore such cases secure in the knowledge that they have done their research by watching videos on YouTube and everything else is made up.
Like that worthless t*** Smurf, for example.
I swear one doesn't need to go to all this trouble of phone scamming people individually, one could just put a single video on YouTube and gather masses of idiots all in one go.
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>> Darwin Award???
>> www.thesun.co.uk/news/15793720/family-anti-vaxxer-died-covid-say-dont-make-mistake/
It's sad though, isn't it. An otherwise seemingly decent bloke who is not only lead astray by the YouTube scientists but then in turn misleads others.
That's why gutter-occupants such as Smurf and many other similar bugs should not be permitted a vehicle for their lies, simply because of the real harm it causes to the easily lead and vulnerable.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 6 Aug 21 at 20:31
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The media could just as easily be publishing stories about vaccinated people who have died of covid. They choose not to though.
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IKR, it's almost like it doesn't happen anything like as often because they're, well you know, vaccinated. Almost like the vaccination stops 90+% of the deaths.
I'm curious though, are you vaccinated or are you one of *those*? Not that there's any reason for you to tell me, I just wondered.
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I had a text from my local surgery a few days ago to let me know that I would soon be able to attend a nearby hotel for the booster covid and annual flu jabs.
Two sore arms, possibly.
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 8 Aug 21 at 09:46
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>> Two sore arms, possibly.
I would guess, at some point, there will be a combined Flu/covid single annual booster.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 9 Aug 21 at 13:10
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>> I had a text from my local surgery a few days ago to let me
>> know that I would soon be able to attend a nearby hotel for the booster
>> covid and annual flu jabs.
>>
>> Two sore arms, possibly.
Both jabs scheduled for next week.
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Is the J&J Janssen vaccine available in the UK? I know it is approved, but can one actually get it?
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I believe we still only use AZ, Pfizer and Moderna
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No single jab vaccinations?
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OK, that's a pity, however it turns out I can get the jab in either Berlin or Vienna and I shall be in both over the next couple of weeks, so I shall do that.
#1 daughter has compiled a list of German and Austrian Art Museums for us to visit. My pleas to only choose those with a close-by bar for me to wait in have been ignored.
Pity Czech R. is still Amber or I would have done Berlin, Prague, Vienna by road over a few days
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 5 Sep 21 at 17:06
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A rather inciteful comment on CNN this morning;
"Showing anti-vaxxers and other conspiracy theorists facts, proof and evidence is not, and never will be, sufficient to change their minds"
Quite true, but very depressing.
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I would like to strongly point out that is how auto correct spells "insightful", NOT how I do it.
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Inciteful and insightful are different words, with different meanings.
I'm not sure what is "inciteful" (= tending to incite) about the material referred to. Maybe insightful (= showing a deep understanding) is the better word.
Last edited by: James Loveless on Tue 14 Sep 21 at 13:54
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I am aware, hence my comment.
Blame my phone autocorrect which has Spanish, Portuguese, German and Italian loaded into it, as well as English. It gets headaches, especially when I'm not paying attention.+
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Just had booster.
Sitting waiting for my 15 minutes while I write this.
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Had Covid booster in right arm and flu jab in left today, No ill effects from either. Very well organised at local school sports hall. Also managed a top up of £30 worth of diesel with no queue so a reasonably successful day
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Haven't had a Covid booster yet but did have the flu jab about ten days or so ago. No reaction for a couple of days but then woke up one morning with a sore, itchy swollen bicep. Took about four days to disappear.
Might not have been the jab of course but that would be unusual - she normally aims for my head or ribs.
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Had my booster this morning, Pfizer, as my originals. Done at the local cricket club by my local chemist, Maneet. Shared a joke or two with him. Mrs Ted came too but she was two days early but they let her have hers. No reactions for either of us but a bit of tiredness. Enjoyed the afternoon dozing in the sun on the terrace !
Ted
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>> Had Covid booster in right arm and flu jab in left today, No ill effects from either.
>>
No invite for a booster yet but I am booked in about 10 days time for a flu jab and also Zostavaxs for shingles.
www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/shingles-vaccination/
Includes a menu of jabs :-)
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I see that the NHS have announced that half of eligible over 50s have had their vaccine booster jabs.
That must come under the heading of “Lies, dammed lies and statistics”
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>> I see that the NHS have announced that half of eligible over 50s have had
>> their vaccine booster jabs.
>>
>> That must come under the heading of “Lies, dammed lies and statistics”
>>
Why zat? Are you simply saying that you don't believe that figure? You think it is greater than 50%? Or less? (should it be fewer?)
I and it seems, all of my cronies, have had the third jab.
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>>Why zat?
Me too?
You have to remember that the eligibility is for 6 months after the second jab, which means that there is a new cohort available each week. It's going to be some time before the 50% changes much, though he good news is that last Friday to Sunday, over 900,000 boosters were done.
We were two of them
8o)
Last edited by: neiltoo on Tue 26 Oct 21 at 12:43
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...I think the issue is that, currently, a very large proportion of over 50s are not yet eligible for their booster jabs (it being less than 6 months since their second dose).
Whilst technically correct, the headline announcement could be seen as very misleading unless one takes care to interpret properly.
(I am miles to the North of 50, but not yet eligible for a booster).
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Tue 26 Oct 21 at 12:48
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Mrs B and I are both over 60 and had our second jabs in mid/late May. We are therefore not eligible for the booster until well into next month.
I suspect any over 50s who are eligible having had their second jab before the end of April will be people with vulnerability for reasons other than age.
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I get my booster jab tomorrow. Just over six months since my last one.
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Neither of us is eligible until early next month, and we got our first jabs pretty much as soon as we could. The suggestion that over-50's are slow to take up the booster is silly - most I know aren't quite 6 months elapsed yet.
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The roll out in Scotland is slow - my wife & I had Jab 1 & 2 at the same time - Feb & March.
For some obscure reason / IT issue she was given an appointment on 12th October 16 miles away rather than the local clinic 2 miles away. I did not get an appointment.
The appointment was 16+ miles away, most people did not turn up. My wife got her Jab3 & Flu and the staff were standing around doing diddly squat. I asked & was given the 2 jabs.
Roll on 2 weeks and they have sent me an invite for 30th Oct - over 7+ months since Jab2. It took 30 mins to get through to cancel - so much for the NHS database /spreadsheet not being updated in a 2 week period
At the 3 sessions the nurses/admin people were great - the IT setup leaves a lot to be desired - in the week commencing 11th October -15th the staff Stirling stood around with few takers as most people could not be ars*d to cancel or travel.
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What statistic would you prefer?
Seems to me to be an excellent and appropriate stat. Of all those able, more than 50% have.
How else could you possibly put it?
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..it's all in the nuancing...
If instead it had been announced that n% (I strongly suspect single figures given my own age and timeline) of over 50s had received their booster jab, and that represented a take-up of offers of only 50%, then a completely different impression would be conveyed.
Same stats, different wording.
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Had my booster invite exactly 6 months after first jab, had to put it off for two weeks as I had a temp medical issue, and then away for a week in the CCV, I'll book it for next week.
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..I shan't be putting mine off unless I really have to...
My ex-works colleague who I regularly still walk with tested positive towards the end of the week before last (along with his wife). Luckily, due to (his) blisters, we had cancelled our last walking session.
Though double-jabbed and a few years younger than me, he was still in a bad way when I talked to him ('phone) yesterday (Unless it takes a turn for the worse, not, I think, life-threatening, but he was struggling to talk for any amount of time due to prolonged coughing and difficulty in breathing, and that's 10+ days on).
Patently, it takes people different ways, and his wife seems to have got off fairly lightly and largely recovered, but even at the end of a 'phone, the experience was enough for me to want to redouble my caution.
FWIW, their suspicion is that it resulted from a football match attendance, since they know the couple who sit next to them, and their timeline coincided almost exactly.
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I'm due in the next few weeks and I'm not looking forward to it. SWMBO had hers last week and spent the next day in bed and didn't eat for a couple of days, she's now got 'covid arm', grumpy or what? Apparently it's not unusual to experience if the first two were AZ and the third Pfizer.
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NHS frontline daughter had flu and 3rd jab on the same day and wasn't great for 3 days or so.
Mine is due during Nov but I will keep it away from the flu one by a week or so i think.
I'm 65 with no declared comorbidities and we got our first and second jabs at the first available opportunity.
I suppose I'm surprised how many people over 50 were ahead of me.
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Just managed to book my booster jab online.
I’m 74
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>> NHS frontline daughter had flu and 3rd jab on the same day and wasn't great
>> for 3 days or so.
Wouldn't dream of mixing both, too much of a system overload IMHO. Had my flue jab last month knowing my covid would be due a month later
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>>
>>
>> Wouldn't dream of mixing both, too much of a system overload IMHO. Had my flue
>> jab last month knowing my covid would be due a month later
>>
Same here, flue jab two weeks ago and Covid booster due mid November.
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>> Same here, flue jab two weeks ago and Covid booster due mid November.
>>
...aye, weel, as a result lang may your (and Z's) lum reek.....
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Curious, there's support here for the triple measles, mumps, rubella vaccine, but folk are saying flu and covid vaccines given on the same day could result in system overload.
Just saying.
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This is how scare stories start - "I saw it on a newsgroup/social media ........... two on same day = system overload" .
Medical and NHS studies have shown it to be safe. I would trust their judgement, not ill informed anecdotal evidence from those almost certainly unqualified.
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SWMBO & I had the 2 jabs on the same day (76&75) neither up nor down and that was 2 weeks ago.
The Covid jab gave "soreness" the mild effects lasted for say 24 hours. The Flu jab, in the other arm, had no sensation afterwards.
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Wasn't it one of Andrew Wakefield's doctrines that the MMR vaccine was dangerous because it combined three vaccines in one jab?
Given what happened to Wakefield and the way he was later discredited, and given that there was and is no evidence he was correct, I would be inclined to have the flu and covid vaccinations as soon as possible, no matter how close in time they are.
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>> Wasn't it one of Andrew Wakefield's doctrines that the MMR vaccine was dangerous because it
>> combined three vaccines in one jab?
>>
>> Given what happened to Wakefield and the way he was later discredited, and given that
>> there was and is no evidence he was correct, I would be inclined to have
>> the flu and covid vaccinations as soon as possible, no matter how close in time
>> they are.
You don't, you really don't, given both are prone to reactions, you don't want both symptoms at once. OK You won't get Autism
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I would rather not have them both at once. I'm not worried about the combined effect, but if you do one thing at a time then you will have a better idea of what caused any ill effect that does occur.
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Given that I know someone who had a reaction, I won't push to get both on the same day but if that's what is offered then I'll take it. I'd just sooner not take the risk.
I am far from being a vaccine denier but I would say that really, though there may have been many thousand instances of boosters being given, there is no long term data about whether any of the vaccines are safe. Just because the NHS, or govt, or whoever, say it is, they have insufficient evidence yet. Most new drugs are tested over periods of years not months.
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It's the old risk conundrum. We can't absolutely quantify the risk if we really want to try and make it the basis of a decision.
However, on the basis of the number of people who have already had these jabs, it seems likely to me that the risk is
(a) very low, including as compared with everyday risks of such things as accidents in the home, and
(b) materially lower than the risk of not having it, related to the increased likelihood of catching a bad dose of COVID-19.
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I am pretty sure we were not able to have the initial jabs within a certain time frame of a Flu jab.
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A whistleblower has highlighted some regulatory oversight and data integrity issues around the Pfizer vaccine trials.
tinyurl.com/yyxca6sp (It's the British Medical Journal, not some lefty rag :-) )
Rather plays into the hands of the anti vaxers... :-(
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"could raise questions about"
"may have come at the cost of"
"may have occurred"
Got bored, stopped reading.
On the subject of Anti vaxxers, I think they are to be encouraged. The problem will solve itself quickly enough, and the planet's average IQ will have increased as a result.
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Plenty of companies promising the moon to Pharma and Governments to win ££££££ and $$$$$$ contracts and then realising they can't deliver legitimately in research, CV testing, PPE provision, IT systems.
I expect inhaled/nebulised interferon will be similar.... ;-)
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Heard about someone with leukemia who was given a letter from their GP that said as their first two vaccines were AZ then their third (perhaps third primary) should also be AZ. I wonder if that means their booster (4th) should then be something different?
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A report in the BBC today quotes the 'official' figures as follows;
10m in the UK have had a booster jab.
30% of >80s have not
40% of >50s have not
I am surprised. That seems like an awful lot of people leaving themselves more vulnerable than they need to be even allowing for those that can't for one reason or another. (nut jobs to one side).
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>> I am surprised. That seems like an awful lot of people leaving themselves more vulnerable
>> than they need to be even allowing for those that can't for one reason or
>> another. (nut jobs to one side).
Presumably the 60% of >50's who have had a booster are mostly over 70, and few 50-60 year-olds have been boosted other than the vulnerable.
I (68) got my first jabs as soon as I reasonably could, and I only became eligible last week. I'm going to try for a walk-in today.
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>>
>> >> I am surprised. That seems like an awful lot of people leaving themselves more
>> vulnerable
Especially when there is the suggestion that protection seems to diminish at about 6 months.
There are some reports of eligible people not being able to book jabs as the “system” won’t let them.
I can’t get my 3rd jab until December.
After 3 very long days on call, Miss Z reports that the local hospital is at breaking point and wouldn’t be surprised if it’s closed to new admissions.
There are no ITU beds left.
It’s not a good time to get sick.
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I have to assume that the figures are for people eligible for their booster i.e. 6 months after jab two and not the age ranges as a whole?
And I've mentioned before my Trust is at breaking point even this early in the winter months, our ED attendances are up 40% over last week, with patients waiting 36-48 hours in our day wards for a bed (these wards have been converted to inpatient beds to try and cope with the influx).
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>> I have to assume that the figures are for people eligible for their booster i.e.
>> 6 months after jab two and not the age ranges as a whole?
>>
>> And I've mentioned before my Trust is at breaking point even this early in the
>> winter months, our ED attendances are up 40% over last week, with patients waiting 36-48
>> hours in our day wards for a bed (these wards have been converted to inpatient
>> beds to try and cope with the influx).
>>
>>
Without wishing to cast aspersions on the ability of the NHS to collect and analyse data, I’m not sure that I’d assume that the %s are of those eligible. Seems more likely to be for the age ranges as a whole as they were for the first two vaccinations. Otherwise you might have the situation that the reported % vaccinated fell over time, which if based on those eligible could well be true but that would completely confuse the average politician, not to say journalist and views paper reader…
Edited to say, as someone who was 50 this year I’m not eligible for the booster until later this month anyway.
Last edited by: PeterS on Mon 8 Nov 21 at 22:21
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>> Without wishing to cast aspersions on the ability of the NHS to collect and analyse
>> data, I’m not sure that I’d assume that the %s are of those eligible. Seems
>> more likely to be for the age ranges as a whole as they were for
>> the first two vaccinations.
I'm not sure that stands up.
The original vaccination 'penetration' was rightly measured against the numbers in age range cohorts as they became eligible.
We're now being called on dates that are, give or take recent adjustments, 6 months after vaccination #2 in the first phase. If you count those passing the six month threshold and subtract those who've actually had the booster then the rest is just manipulating the numbers to give percentages; even I could do that.
My vaccination #2 was in late May. I got a text over the weekend inviting me to book for the booster and was offered dates later this month. Initially booked c21-11 but had to re-jig as we're now going to our daughter's that weekend.
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>>It's not a good time to get sick.
Similar story this morning from my tiler, whose daughter is a hospital nurse not far from here. We are not yet comfortably into the "living with it" phase.
Those who are concerned about the risks from the "experimental" vaccines or think it's safe now should note this -
The age adjusted risk of death involving COVID-19 was 32 times greater in unvaccinated compared with fully vaccinated people (between 2 January and 24 September 2021)
shorturl.at/atzC8 (ons.gov.uk)
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 8 Nov 21 at 22:56
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>> >>It's not a good time to get sick.
>>
>> Similar story this morning from my tiler, whose daughter is a hospital nurse not far
>> from here. We are not yet comfortably into the "living with it" phase.
>>
Yes, far from it.
Miss Z came home last night totally exhausted. I had to pick her up because she was too tiered to drive. I also took a colleague of hers home for the same reason. They both fell asleep in the car and Miss Z's a marathon runner.
There were six deaths on her ward a couple quite young. Some, to her mind un-necessary, though she's still junior, but you know things aren't going well when the usually as hard as nails, very experienced and considered very good consultant breaks down in tears because there's nothing more that can be done for a patient, who in more normal times would probably have survived. (No capacity for surgery, no ITU beds and no transfers amongst a myriad of other reasons.)
None of the deaths were due to Covid, but Covid probably delayed some of the treatment.
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There's something adrift here. It may be something I either don't know or do not appreciate.
According to the gov.uk figures the 7 day average in hospital in January was 38,434
The 7 day average at the beginning of November was 9,326 and falling.
So, where are the other 29,000 beds?
(Same parameters, 4,017 vs 1,011 on mechanical ventilation).
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Wards are full of (mostly) non-Covid patients.
A&E have nowhere to put the ill guys who rock up/are sent in by GPs so they are stuck in A&E for 6-24+ hours waiting for a ward bed to appear.
For 20+ years hospital development has been run on a "shorter stays on average" basis (more use of day surgery, faster recoveries from less invasive procedures), with bed occupancy increasingly close to or juat above 100%.
So overall bed numbers fell.
Add in 8 years of austerity/'efficiency gain' and a gradually more multimorbid population and the system was at creaking point before Covid appeared.
Now we have the same hospitals with less bed availability due to infection control measures/staff shortages (and believe me that's gonna get a lot worse)/social work doing less with less resources/ a care sector on its backside.
And it's November.
The only real lever hospitals can pull is stopping/delaying elective procedures.
And that often ends up simply having more presentations in extremis months down the line.
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Added to that we've been given a pot of waiting-list-initiative (WLI) money and very targets by NHS-I to drastically reduce the elective waiting lists in double quick time, so we have medical and surgical teams fighting over the same resources.
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>> Wards are full of (mostly) non-Covid patients.
Went for my regular scan yesterday. During the height of the covid pandemic, it was a: tough to get in the hospital, rather like trying to get through immigration. and b: there was little waiting around, no appreciable "queue" and it was in, do it and out.
Yesterday, Entry into hospital is considerably easier, just a fresh mask and temp check, no questioning why where and when, and the scanner suite was heaving with punters. Mine was delayed by an hour due to backlog.
Clearly my local NHS trust are sweating their assets hard and working their socks off in an attempt, I assume, to catch up. And probably because people are now prepared to report symptoms and seek treatment.
So are hospitals stretched? Clearly, is it Covid? not directly but its the aftermath. The daily "number of people in hospital due to covid" headline lowish statistic that HM gov keeps trotting out, is now a red herring.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 9 Nov 21 at 11:19
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Is it still the case that fully vaccinated in the reported numbers just means you’ve had the initial 2 doses? The booster doesn’t come in to it. I wonder when that’ll change…?
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Soon, I suspect...
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/11/07/holidaymakers-refuse-covid-booster-may-face-quarantine-new-plans/
[EDIT: Yes, Smokie, I know, you posted that link yesterday. I only just spotted it]
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 9 Nov 21 at 09:44
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I've only been eligible to book the booster since Friday. I'd been checking the NHS site daily.
It was based on your first jab dates I believe, which I also got at first opportunity.
The figures are probably correct but lead people to wrong conclusions.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 8 Nov 21 at 10:27
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... and on a travel note, the Beeb reports that "US reopens border to UK travellers after almost two years"
"The border reopened at 05:01 GMT and the first flights took off from Heathrow at 08:50. All UK visitors over 18 have to provide proof of vaccination to enter the US.
"American travellers have been able to travel to the UK since 28 July."
I wonder how they got home again?
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>>I wonder how they got home again?
I don't think there was a restriction on Americans going home.
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No but it says " the first flights took off from Heathrow at 08:50"
Did they walk? :-)
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The first British Airways flights....
They still haven't restarted here and I've flown in and out a couple of times using other airlines.
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I'm sorry, I was just trying to be humorous. Didn't realise we don't do that any more :-(
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>> I'm sorry, I was just trying to be humorous. Didn't realise we don't do that
>> any more :-(
We do but generally not as badly as that.
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>> I'm sorry, I was just trying to be humorous. Didn't realise we don't do that
>> any more :-(
I think these days it's regarded as 'de rigueur' to include funny bits.
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>> No but it says " the first flights took off from Heathrow at 08:50"
>>
>> Did they walk? :-)
The 'first flights' thing is just about publicity for BA and Virgin.
The reality, as any user of Flight Radar 24 and similar apps can see, is that flights too/from the US have run, albeit on reduced frequency, at most times in the pandemic.
Friend (somebody I was at school with) was posting on Facebook from NYC and then DC a couple of weeks ago. Some family connection - possibly her husband is American - seemed to have allowed her in.
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>>Some family connection - possibly her husband is American - seemed to have allowed her in.
There's been no absolute interruption. It's just that coming from some places, the UK for example, non-US residents have had to go somewhere else for 10 days first. Exactly as I had to do to avoid quarantine in the UK.
These families being interviewed talking of torrid times of separation for 2 years could have solved their problem had they wanted to enough. They just couldn't book a direct flight which seemed to be the extent of their ideas and commitment.
I, and my friends, have managed as have many, many others. It's just a bit of an a*** at times.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 9 Nov 21 at 10:17
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Well, that makes my life considerably easier.....
www.gov.uk/guidance/countries-with-approved-covid-19-vaccination-programmes-and-proof-of-vaccination
Excerpt:
Approved vaccines
You must have had a complete course of one of the following vaccines at least 14 days before you arrive in England:
Oxford/AstraZeneca
Pfizer BioNTech
Moderna
Janssen
and from 4am 22 November, World Health Organization’s Emergency Use Listing (WHO EUL) vaccines:
Sinovac
Sinopharm Beijing
Covaxin
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A&E Doc countering misinformation - Kevin
