I was was on Zoom earlier speaking group of friends around the country. (I hate Zoom type chatting.)
One of the group is really a friend of a friend and she is applying for a job in the NHS. Administrator level, based in the South West. The job involves filing, booking appointments etc. and pays about £10 per hour.
She's just turned 30 and has been out of work for the last 5 years bringing up children and is looking to get back to work. She's bright and has good "A" levels in Maths, History and English.
The application states that if you have not worked in the last 3 years, job references are not required.
Instead, they require references from two of the following; doctor, optician, qualified accountant, qualified architect, qualified engineer, solicitor, barrister and a few other similar professions.
It goes on to state that the referee must know the applicant personally and not just through the course of business or practice, so their GP is not suitable nor is their accountant if he only does the family books etc.
I can't help thinking it's a bit elitist and possibly a touch of "jobs for the boys" because the only type of person that is going to know that group personally is likely to already be in that group.
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If one relies on one's professional reputation then one will not easily squander it on some arbitrary or fanciful reference.
Where as Bob down the pub might well.
On the other, if one can join an elite with solely hard work and commitment, followed by reliability and trustworthiness then surely that is not a bad thing? Though I can we'll see why many would dislike it.
It's one of those terms that it has become trendy to dislike.
(To be clear, I am not throwing rocks at any person)
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I'm surprised to see that sort of thing, especially in the public sector I thought be all as inclusive as possible etc. Caveats like that in those jobs I thought would have gone years ago, more likely to make sure only middle class house wives get that type of job as that was the sort of person they wanted but couldn't openly put that.
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Crikey. I'd be stuffed then. I don't and never have known anyone in any of those groups personally.
Last edited by: Crankcase on Fri 19 Feb 21 at 07:18
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That’s because you’re a pleb :-)
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I think you're right.
Although I should add I don't know anybody personally at all who would give a reference, so maybe I'm just not suitable for employment these days. Thank goodness I don't have to be any more.
I hardly dare say how I got the three jobs of my life, but none were anything like an apparently "normal" recruitment process. Times change.
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I hardly dare say how I got the three jobs of my life, but none
>> were anything like an apparently "normal" recruitment process. Times change.
>>
Did you show your suitability through the medium of mime?
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I’ve two good friends who are solicitors, one of them recently retired, but my working life wasn’t in the field of ‘professional’ trades.
Most of my very good friends are firemen, joiners, electricians, plumbers, builders, retail workers so I’d be kind of (almost) stuffed for references.
Only a semi pleb then.
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>>
>> I hardly dare say how I got the three jobs of my life, but none
>> were anything like an apparently "normal" recruitment process.
>>
....you knew Anthony Blunt..... ?
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My personal referee for the Civil Service in 1978 was my parents next door neighbour who'd also taught me at Grammar School where he was Head of History. Recruitment involved exams and an interview.
Roll on 35 years and my current employer got personal references from two former seniors from the Quango.
I'd struggle to find two referees in the categories Zippy mentions in the OP. Is the list of professions there exclusive or is there an 'or person of similar standing' qualification? In that case there are probably folks in CA, people I've worked with as a volunteer, who could do. We could of course get together and have a mutual back scratching agreement for such things.
What does the employer want of these referees? Is it a bit like countersigning a passport application where you're confirming they're who they say they are together with generally vouching for their history, honesty etc. On the other hand are you expected to provide a hundred or so words freehand on their suitability?
Two other thoughts. Firstly if they're at all rigid about this the employer is limiting the pool and may miss out excellent candidates. The second is that it might constitute direct, or more likely indirect, discrimination against one group or another.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 19 Feb 21 at 10:08
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>>The second is that it might constitute direct, or more likely indirect, discrimination against one group or another.
Yup.
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Hadn't really thought about it much, but now I'm prompted to do so, it occurs to me that I've never actually applied for a job in my life. I was headhunted out of Uni for my first job and everything since has been in the form of having been invited to come and have a chat about an opportunity over dinner or lunch.
I guess latterly, it's a function of having a lot of knowledge and experience in a very narrow field, as opposed to a more rounded background. Everyone I've ever been "interviewed" by knew me quite well anyway.
I wouldn't know where to begin to write a CV !
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>>>>The second is that it might constitute direct, or more likely indirect, discrimination against one group or another.
>>Yup.
In practise it hasn't happened given the ethnic mix of people in that role and level I deal with in the NHS.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 19 Feb 21 at 10:58
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The public sector likes to do everything "by the book". They are concerned as much about the risk of making a mistake as getting the answer right.
Getting references is as much about protecting those involved in the recruitment process as it is about selecting the right candidate.
They prefer other professional referees probably because through training and qualification they would be expected (naively?) to conduct themselves with integrity.
I do not think they are deliberately trying to exclude candidates, but like most organisations will tend to recruit in their own image - which generally is 20 years behind where the rest of society is!
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I was asked to countersign a passport application last year by a fairly recent motorcycling acquaintance.
I had not actually known him for the prerequisite time and declined to do it. He did get a bit sniffy about it suggesting I be a little flexible with my dates.
i don't work like that and have been conditioned over the years to be as watertight as possible if the worst case scenario were to occur. Maybe I need to chill a bit :)
Last edited by: Fullchat on Fri 19 Feb 21 at 12:14
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>>
>> i don't work like that and have been conditioned over the years to be as
>> watertight as possible if the worst case scenario were to occur. Maybe I need to
>> chill a bit :)
I have pointed out the repercussions of Rugby's Bloodgate affair/scandal to some people over the years. "Just helping someone out", if it means bending, or breaking the rules can be a disaster career - wise.
In the Harlequins Bloodgate case, the doctor (an A&E consultant) was suspended, as was the Director of Rugby and the physiotherapist. The Club was fined, the director involved resigned. The player was punished, all of this just to get a player back on the pitch for a few minutes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodgate
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>> I was asked to countersign a passport application last year by a fairly recent motorcycling
>> acquaintance.
>> I had not actually known him for the prerequisite time and declined to do it.
>> He did get a bit sniffy about it suggesting I be a little flexible with
>> my dates.
>> i don't work like that and have been conditioned over the years to be as
>> watertight as possible if the worst case scenario were to occur.
>>Maybe I need to chill a bit :)
You most certainly do not. Aside from the integrity issues can you imagine the nightmare if it came to light in bad circumstances??
I have previously refused to do it for exactly the same reason, fortunately they didn't get sniffy about it though.
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Our business insurers require us to take two references for every new employee we take on. It's hard these days as legally a former employer need only provide the period the ex-employee worked for them. They have no obligation to provide any information about their timekeeping, abilities etc, even if 100% accurate. Firms have been sued for providing accurate but damning references.
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>> Our business insurers require us to take two references for every new employee we take
>> on. It's hard these days as legally a former employer need only provide the period
>> the ex-employee worked for them.
That's more or less all Citizens Advice got for me from the Ministry of Justice hence I needed a second personal referee.
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>> In practise it hasn't happened given the ethnic mix of people in that role and
>> level I deal with in the NHS.
The NHS is a Balkanised outfit of Trusts, Contractors and a few centralised providers like Blood and Transplant. No guarantee that outfits in Surrey/Outer London will follow same processes as in Devon/Cornwall. You'd also expect a Trust serving a diverse population to be more clued up on/alive to discrimination.
And even if your area's hospital admin appears to reflect the racial make up thereabouts a need for references from a limited band of professionals might affect other groups - women, youngsters or the disabled.
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>> And even if your area's hospital admin appears to reflect the racial make up thereabouts
>> a need for references from a limited band of professionals might affect other groups -
>> women, youngsters or the disabled.
Dealt with all them at all levels in NHS admin. Except of course in senior managerial roles, where its White Middle class.
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>>I'd struggle to find two referees in the categories Zippy mentions in the OP.
Zippy does say "and a few other professions"
The list for passport applications is here
www.gov.uk/countersigning-passport-applications/accepted-occupations-for-countersignatories
It's pretty wide. And it also includes "people of good standing in the community". Difficult to believe that the NHS is substantially different in approach. I wonder if there is a catch all at the end of the list? Something like "...or similar".
>>We could of course get together and have a mutual back scratching agreement for such things.
And there would be the reason why they are seeking people who would be unlikely to risk their reputations or standing.
>>What does the employer want of these referees?
I think the moment they applicant gives the referee details they've mostly passed the test. Beyond that it's probably little more than checking the person exists, and I wonder how often they even do that.
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>>It's pretty wide. And it also includes "people of good standing in the community". Difficult to
>>believe that the NHS is substantially different in approach. I wonder if there is a catch all at the >>end of the list? Something like "...or similar".
My guess is there was. It didn't see the application, just the lass reading the list.
>>And there would be the reason why they are seeking people who would be unlikely to risk their >>reputations or standing.
Totally agree as to why they are seeking that category of referee. A reference from Dodgy Dave the Drug Dealer isn't going to cut it.
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>>Administrator level, based in the South West. The job involves filing, booking appointments etc. and pays about £10 per hour.
It was late and I missed this bit, I'd assumed that it was a senior role..
I wonder why the high reference requirements. Do they use one set of requirements for all levels, including the more sensitive or senior roles?
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>> It goes on to state that the referee must know the applicant personally and not
>> just through the course of business or practice, so their GP is not suitable nor
>> is their accountant if he only does the family books etc.
In the context of a personal reference that ought to be obvious. Of course they must know the applicant personally, how else could they provide a personal reference?
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I took it mean that they could know and recognise you but it doesn't count if it's in a professional capacity.
I wonder how much checking up and what if any come back there is for this sort of thing. If you've known them for 18 months say?
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>>I wonder how much checking up and what if any come back there is for this sort of thing
How much checking up? Very little.
How much come back? Very little.
However, often in my career I learned how small a world it is and how often stuff can come back at you, good or bad, from the most unexpected directions.
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I did think you could get literally anyone to sign the back and say they were a retired xyz, and it would be very difficult to check up on.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 19 Feb 21 at 17:04
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>> I did think you could get literally anyone to sign the back and say they
>> were a retired xyz, and it would be very difficult to check up on.
I've signed the odd passport form in the capacity of serving/retired Civil Servant. I had to give contact details and (IIRC) my NI number. It was made clear I might be contacted.
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>> I did think you could get literally anyone to sign the back and say they
>> were a retired xyz, and it would be very difficult to check up on.
If you're talking about signing passport photos, then you have to give your own passport number as well. So perhaps tiresome to check up on, but not very difficult.
Though unless the sticky stuff hits the whirly thing I doubt they ever do.
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I don't think you have to, I did one the other year. I don't think the person had to give their own, if they even had.
Not sure it's a requirement to have a passport to sign a passport photo.
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>> Not sure it's a requirement to have a passport to sign a passport photo.
It is, at least if you're applying in the UK.
www.gov.uk/countersigning-passport-applications
As with the OP's references scenario I'd be surprised if that's not challengeable for indirect discrimination.
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Must have forgotten that, it was last year!
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I do get a bit fed up with everything being challenged. I don't just mean legal stuff.
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Right there with you on that.
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>>Not sure it's a requirement to have a passport to sign a passport photo.
I get asked to sign various forms fairly often and there seems to be little consistency across types of forms or country of origin. I have never been "checked with" on a UK document that I've countersigned.
It seems that in general a country without a Government photo ID system requires signatories whereas those with, do not.
When I or the girls need signatories it is usually UK Military or Foreign Office / Diplomatic officials. I doubt those get checked up upon, though it doesn't seem to make anything any quicker.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 20 Feb 21 at 15:45
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When I or the girls need signatories it is usually UK Military or Foreign Office
>> / Diplomatic officials. I doubt those get checked up upon, though it doesn't seem to
>> make anything any quicker.
No when I've had mine signed similarly it doesn't make it any quicker but then I wouldn't really expect it to. Apart from one time about 100 of us need a second passport short order, they came back pretty quickly.
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>>No when I've had mine signed similarly it doesn't make it any quicker but then I wouldn't really expect it to
I sort of meant that if they were checking up on who signed the photo or countersigned the form or whatever that would take time, and I would assume that under those circumstances the checks would be less and thus the process shorter.
I'd take it that since there is no change in speed that therefore no checks are done ever. Perhaps a 10 second check that the passport number is valid, but no profession, good social standing in the community, or other records check.
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Perhaps a 10 second check that the passport number is valid, but
>> no profession, good social standing in the community, or other records check.
>>
Like you said, I can see them doing the first one, the rest doubtful. How do you assess 'good standing in the community' if you are a low level admin bod processing forms in the Passport Office?
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I'd suggest that the system might do two (or more) things:
Firstly applications selected at random are subject to a check on the countersigner. If stuff matches quickly then no further inquiry. If it starts to look iffy then investigation up's pace . The value is that it gives some reassurance that the system works.
Secondarily there's an algorithm that looks for oddities; mismatches with data for the counter signatories passport or same person countersigning on multiple applications.
Inquiries of countersigner move up a pace.
Other levels might rely on intelligence etc.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 20 Feb 21 at 21:59
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I'm quite interested now. I don't know the answer, but I do know who to ask. I'll let you know.
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I think you might be a tad optimistic there Bromp.
i don't know if it is still possible but there was a time when passports were being applied for in the name of deceased babies.
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>>
>> i don't know if it is still possible but there was a time when passports
>> were being applied for in the name of deceased babies.
>>
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3098104.stm
Caught "Day of the Jackal" on TV the over night.
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An excellent film I can, and have watch(ed) many times.
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>> An excellent film I can, and have watch(ed) many times.
What did you think of the Bruce Willis remake? I started by hating the idea, realised pretty quickly it was a remake in name only, accepted that and ended up quite enjoying it on a chewing gum for the eyes level.
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>> >> An excellent film I can, and have watch(ed) many times.
>>
>>
>> What did you think of the Bruce Willis remake? I started by hating the idea,
>> realised pretty quickly it was a remake in name only, accepted that and ended up
>> quite enjoying it on a chewing gum for the eyes level.
Yeah, just about sums it up, The same can not be said for Get Carter, and the Italian Job remakes where everyone involved in those abortions should be drummed out of the entertainment industry and stripped of their eyeballs.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 21 Feb 21 at 09:01
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I set the Tivo box with a "record anything with Michael Caine in it" wishlist a few weeks ago for a bit of fun. He did appear in some real clunkers. Almost every morning it's found me something else.
It found the last two Harry Palmer films for me, which I'd been kind of wanting to see for years.
They weren't good.
It also found me Harry Brown, which is really well done.
I still have The Man Who Would be King to see, which I've not seen before. Oh, and also 4 Children and It. I can hardly wait.
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>> i don't know if it is still possible but there was a time when passports
>> were being applied for in the name of deceased babies.
As well as the Day of the Jackal it was of course used in real life by Police Officers going undercover with protest groups etc.
I'm sure I read somewhere that the loophole had been closed but cannot remember how.
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And a multitude of other officially sanctioned clandestine operations I'm sure.
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Although I'm sure they can bypass the formalities.
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As well as the Day of the Jackal it was of course used in real
>> life by Police Officers going undercover with protest groups etc.
>>
>> I'm sure I read somewhere that the loophole had been closed but cannot remember how.
>>
The police (in those particular cases) got passports in the name of dead children?
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>> The police (in those particular cases) got passports in the name of dead children?
I'm sure that's what's been reported.
There's a inquiry now under a retired High Court Judge. While I suspect parts of his report will be redacted for publication it will be interesting, and I suspect for some embarrassing, reading.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_Policing_Inquiry
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 21 Feb 21 at 17:03
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I find it hard to believe any of those groups were any real criminal interest to the police.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 22 Feb 21 at 02:58
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>> I find it hard to believe any of those groups were any real criminal interest
>> to the police.
Pretty much my take too.
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>> >> I find it hard to believe any of those groups were any real criminal
>> interest
>> >> to the police.
>>
>> Pretty much my take too.
>>
The behaviour of some of the individuals in those groups? I am absolutely damned sure they were of criminal interest.
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>> The police (in those particular cases) got passports in the name of dead children?
>>
I thought that until comparatively recently, anyone could do it.
V. handy if you want a second identity for some reason.
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>> i don't know if it is still possible but there was a time when passports
>> were being applied for in the name of deceased babies.
I never actually saw a problem with that. Undercover operatives need a fake ID and I should think it has been commonplace in the security services for ages.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 22 Feb 21 at 02:58
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>> I never actually saw a problem with that. Undercover operatives need a fake ID and
>> I should think it has been commonplace in the security services for ages.
There's clearly a National Security need now and then for officers to adopt a false identity and go under cover. I see no problem with that either. If it's official though there ought to be better ways than adopting the identity of a dead child; the kid's parents might reasonably regard that as offensive.
It also seems that undercover was being used in various legitimate protest groups and that the officers were going way beyond the call of duty with young women in those groups.
The report of the ongoing inquiry into all of that will be interesting reading.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 21 Feb 21 at 15:44
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>>If it's official though there ought to be better ways....
I should think pretty much any approach would involve junior administrators in either doing the work or at least noticing that something out of the ordinary was being done.
>>the kid's parents might reasonably regard that as offensive.
I wouldn't, but I guess some might. Not sure about "reasonably" though. Especially since they'd only even know if the Daily s***e told them about it.
>> and that the officers were going way beyond the call of duty with young women in those groups.
I don't think service in the police comes with an enforceable order of celibacy. Again, I can see how the young lady concerned might be a bit miffed, as generally are most women who are lied to for whatever reason, but hardly a national scandal or against the law.
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>> I wouldn't, but I guess some might. Not sure about "reasonably" though. Especially since they'd
>> only even know if the Daily s***e told them about it.
I had a cousin, the result of an 'accident' to parents who'd accepted they were too old, but very much a wanted and loved child. He was born with a heart defect and died because of it age 4 almost exactly 40 years ago. Both parents are dead now. My Uncle died a couple of years later. His widow re-married but still had a lot of mementoes of her son, including locks of his hair, when she died in 2013. She'd have been very badly affected if she'd discovered his ID being used my Mark Kennedy or one of the other's named recently in this context.
>>but hardly a national scandal or against the law.
Obviously they've got to play the role; getting stand offish about social activity would be a give away. Flirting etc is perhaps OK, but no further. It seems to me grossly immoral to be sleeping with subjects who you're supposed to be surveilling, never mind, as at least one did, having a kid with them.
It should have been a disciplinary offence. I suspect at the time it was a bit of a lark and perhaps a perk; no doubt there was bawdy humour about shagging 'crusties'.
It would be a disciplinary offence now. I agree though that it's not a place criminal law needs to go.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 21 Feb 21 at 16:58
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>>She'd have been very badly affected if she'd discovered his
>> ID being used my Mark Kennedy or one of the other's named recently in this
>> context.
No clue who Mark Kennedy is or why it matters. Now why she'd have cared about that group more than any other.
>>It seems to me grossly immoral to be sleeping with subjects who you're supposed to be surveilling, never mind,as at least one did, having a kid with them.
It may be immoral in your mind. Perhaps not in others. It is, a best, a subjective term.
>> I suspect at the time it was a bit of a lark and perhaps a perk; no doubt there was bawdy humour about shagging 'crusties'.
Where do you get these emotive terms you like to throw in? Seems a little Freudian at times.
In any case, I suspect not. I suspect that often there was genuine attraction, perhaps sometimes it was felt to be necessary, I doubt it was ever seen as a lark or as a perk. If one is pretending to live a life, then I suspect that relationships would cause suspicion / ill feeling if avoided.
One can only imagine the stress that these people live under and to consider judgement by Daily Mail readers secure at home in their onesies is beyond belief.
What is it with the UK these days?
Every single thing must be approved by 68,000,000 people the vast majority of which know nothing outside their own prejudices and ill informed opinions and if some of them should object, for whatever reason, or if it should be unfair to someone, then the Daily Mail Minions are all up in outrage.
HTF do these idiots thing intelligence on the next potential terrorist bombing is obtained? By a group of boy scouts living within artificial rules imposed by know-nothing fools fired up by the tabloids?
One can't but hope that at least one such t*** gets blown off the face of the Earth in an event that would otherwise have been prevented.
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>She'd have been very badly affected
Why?
And what about if that undercover guy had prevented a mass bombing?
This is simply a trendy version of nimbyism.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 21 Feb 21 at 17:33
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>> >She'd have been very badly affected
>>
>> Why?
I refer you to Sooty's post.
>> And what about if that undercover guy had prevented a mass bombing?
Well that would have been some justification.
OTOH if the copper had appended himself to the Greenham Common women or [insert other anti establishment but harmless campaign] and fornicated his time way then I think she'd have been more upset.
On accounts so far publicised the latter seems more common than the former
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If a copper had "fornicated his time way" with the Greenham Common women I drove past regularly he'd deserve a "$%ing medal.
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>> If a copper had "fornicated his time way" with the Greenham Common women I drove
>> past regularly he'd deserve a "$%ing medal.
OK, so you don't need to be in The Job to join in the Canteen Culture I alluded to earlier today.
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Yes. I'd noticed you heading in that direction in a couple of threads recently.
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She'd have been very badly affected if she'd discovered his
>> ID being used my Mark Kennedy or one of the other's named recently in this
>> context.
Having lost a very young child, I'd be similarly minded. It bring back a lot of difficult memories about a very difficult time. I'd be wanting to meet the particular individual (in person) who thought it a good idea and then they can explain in person why they though it was a good idea.
>> >>but hardly a national scandal or against the law.
>>
>> Obviously they've got to play the role; getting stand offish about social activity would be
>> a give away. Flirting etc is perhaps OK, but no further. It seems to me
>> grossly immoral to be sleeping with subjects who you're supposed to be surveilling, never mind,
>> as at least one did, having a kid with them.
>>
That part of it, I'm not that fussed about. My issue would be who an earth thought it a good idea to have all these officers undercover for years, with god knows who many in support chasing around after what? A load of the professional protesters, drop outs and oddballs, who's greatest level of criminality is likely to be trespass, Breach of the peace etc.
Hardly ISIS are they?
>> It would be a disciplinary offence now. I agree though that it's not a place
>> criminal law needs to go.
Agreed, one for their priest not a judge.
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Has the The Covert Human Intelligence Sources Bill given the police powers to do these things and more (including killing someone)?
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Acquaintance Applying for a Job - References - No FM2R
