Miss Z woke me up at 6AM. Her car had a puncture and could I give her a lift to the hospital.
She is currently working at a hospital 23 miles away because they have staff shortages after being seriously hit by COVID.
It's also snowing - great!
I get her to hospital at 7AM. Notice that I am low on fuel and go to a petrol station near the hospital.
Get pulled over leaving the petrol station by a police car. Asked for details.
Get asked what I am doing 20 odd miles from home.
Tell them I have just delivered my daughter to hospital to start her shift and noticed I needed some fuel. Recount the tale of puncture, being woken up early on a Sunday, lack of fuel.
Offer to accompany them to the hospital to find Miss Z so she can confirm, or home to see the deflated tyre.
They wouldn't have any of it and said my journey wasn't necessary and issued a fine.
Apparently paperwork will arrive within a few days. I won't be paying it and will be taking it to the magistrates court.
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Any reason you didn't just change her tyre? Presumably that would have made her getting home again simpler as well.
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>> Any reason you didn't just change her tyre? Presumably that would have made her getting
>> home again simpler as well.
>>
Yes - she would have been late for work and the car has a can of gunk instead of a spare wheel.
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Awkward.
Sorry for your morning.
Here though, had I been in your position, I would absolutely have got a ticket and the judge would have no interest in changing it. They'd have cited puncture repair, buses and all other possibilities and told me that I knew the rules and arguing the point would just make the fine grow.
I hope the UK Magistrates are a bit more lenient.
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If I was Zippy I would be righteously P off. I mean a man who is as closely spied on and monitored by the old bill like he is, surely they would have know there was no case to answer.
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>> Any reason you didn't just change her tyre? Presumably that would have made her getting
>> home again simpler as well.
I'd imagine time would be factor. How long does it take to change a wheel even if everything works as it should?
Last time I tried I needed the breakdown service as the wheel was stuck to the hub.
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No wonder you feel persecuted.
Local paper?
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I guess they are correct as far as the regulations go. Taking someone to work is not a valid reason to leave your home but I would think the court will apply some discretion.
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>> Apparently paperwork will arrive within a few days. I won't be paying it and will be taking it to the magistrates court.
>>
So would I, but I wonder what would have happened if she had taken a taxi.
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>>
>> So would I, but I wonder what would have happened if she had taken a
>> taxi.
>>
Taxis are public transport and they are encouraging us to avoid public transport.
It would have also cost a small fortune!
Anyway, going with someone in your household has got to be safer than a taxi.
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Zippy needs reasonable excuse to be outside his home. While taking a family member to work may not be one of the reasons listed in the regulations they're not exclusive; other cases have to be looked at on their facts.
Miss Z is a hospital doctor who's duties include treating patients with Covid but even if she had an ordinary job in a fat food takeaway I think 'legitimate excuse' would be made out. Same if you'd driven her to work because she was a non driver.
The fact you also stopped for fuel doesn't change the basic facts. I suspect buying fuel is covered by the 'essentials'. In any event, given the current/forecast weather, a prudent drive wouldn't choose to pay fuel light bingo.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 7 Feb 21 at 12:48
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I's suggest that, on receipt of what will presumably be a fixed penalty notice, Zippy writes to the Police reciting the facts and saying he believes he has legitimate excuse. Invite them to withdraw it on the basis that prosecution is not in the public interest and that the cost to the public purse in pursuing it cannot be justified.
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>> I's suggest that, on receipt of what will presumably be a fixed penalty notice, Zippy
>> writes to the Police reciting the facts and saying he believes he has legitimate excuse.
>> Invite them to withdraw it on the basis that prosecution is not in the public
>> interest and that the cost to the public purse in pursuing it cannot be justified.
>>
>>
That's a good idea.
TBH I'm not really annoyed about it all. The cops were doing their job, if a little too officious and it they could have listened to the excuse or even gone that little bit further to prove it by accompanying me to the hospital but I guess that they have heard it all before.
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I guess its not the police's job to investigate whether or not ZIppy has a reasonalbe excuse. If its not on the list of reasons for travel they issue a ticket and leave the courts to decide on the validity of the excuse. Thats what they are for
We ask the police to crack down on rule breakers. We can't complain when they do. Its unfortunate when the consequences are harsh as in this case but to be fair to the police I expect that they do hear an enormous number of cock and bull stories.
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>>I guess its not the police's job to investigate whether or not ZIppy has a reasonalbe excuse.
Perhaps they should have called for CID if it was beyond them to make reasonable efforts.
Is it their job to assume he is lying then? Or did they not think his excuse reasonable?
www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home
When you can leave home
You must not leave or be outside of your home except where you have a ‘reasonable excuse’. This is the law. The police can take action against you if you leave home without a ‘reasonable excuse’, and issue you with a fine (Fixed Penalty Notice).
I seem to be more annoyed on Zippy's behalf than he is. I'd be fuming if it were me. It can't be that hard to find genuine, don't-give-a-stuff transgressors.
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>>
>> I seem to be more annoyed on Zippy's behalf than he is. I'd be fuming
>> if it were me. It can't be that hard to find genuine, don't-give-a-stuff transgressors.
>>
I've had far worse years ago. These police didn't have any real attitude - it was all Sir etc, none of this "mate" stuff.
I suppose I was a bit miffed they didn't bother about checking out the situation with Miss Z who was less than a mile away. Bobbies are allowed to do a little fact checking.
I will be annoyed when the fine letter comes. One of my big flaws is admin, I hate it and this feels like there is going to be a lot of paperwork.
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>>Is it their job to assume he is lying then?
I would think so, yes. If they can. [Edit: I read it as "decide" not "assume"]
With respect to Zippy "I was giving my daughter a lift to work" doesn't sound like a reasonable excuse to me. Even when you add in "she had a puncture".
She's a doctor and is needed at the hospital does make it a reasonable excuse., I think, and the court should be well able to decide that.
If they were polite, then I'm not seeing the problem though I do get the irritation.
If they let him off, does that mean always giving someone a lift to work is ok? What about any other lifts? Doers it depend on the daughter's job? What about if it was a neighbour?
etc. etc.
Isn't that level of decision absolutely part of the courts process, not the Police?
Damned if they do...............
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 7 Feb 21 at 13:50
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The Government has published a list of what constitutes a Reasonable” excuses for travel. If your excuse is not on the then you get a ticket. Taking someone to work is not on the list. You get a ticket.
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There is more than one government published list. The one that matters in court is the one in the current regulations; guidance is just that.
The regulations contain a list but it's not exclusive. Any number of other things might constitute an excuse. We don't know of course what instructions the Constabulary in Zippy's area have issued to officers. While it might be reasonable to give them some discretion they could equally say it's for the bench to decide in cases not four square with what's in the regs.
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>>The Government has published a list of what constitutes a Reasonable" excuses for travel. If your excuse is not on the then you get a ticket.
That is not what the law says. The law permits a reasonable excuse.
Even the list on gov.uk does not purport to be exhaustive.
Further reasonable excuses
There are further reasonable excuses. For example, you may leave home to fulfil legal obligations, or to carry out activities related to buying, selling, letting or renting a residential property, for the purpose of picketing, or where it is reasonably necessary for voting in an election or referendum. See guidance on campaigning during the national lockdown. This applies to anyone campaigning for electoral events.
The above says "for example" not "i.e." There is a good reason that the list is not exhaustive and exclusive which is that it is impossible to list all conceivable circumstances in which leaving home might be justified. Looking at the list, the inclusion of things such as picketing, religious nuttery and house hunting would lead me to think that taking a doctor to a hospital to work would be reasonable.
They were lazy jobsworths doing a bit of 'work' with as little effort as possible before going for donuts (is my theory).
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 7 Feb 21 at 14:50
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You clearly have a bit of an attitude problem with the police.
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>> You clearly have a bit of an attitude problem with the police.
That's a bit of an extrapolation. Do you think all police are the same? I support the police but as with any profession, there are duds.
p.s. I was offended by your presumption, so I have given you a red face to go with your green thumb!
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 7 Feb 21 at 14:56
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Of course that's just that, 'my theory'.
You'd find it very hard to find a patrol at that time on a Sunday. Shift change being normally 07.00. Not that there aren't other times. Zippy was especially unlucky.
Bit early for doughnuts even for the Old Bill.
No one has mentioned discretion and there are a number of human factors that can effect how discretion is applied. Taking into account all the circumstances and throw in a bit of proportionality then formulate a disposal strategy.
4 E's Engage, Explain, Encourage and Enforce.
Anyway Manchester is the place to be, its all over. Isn't that the place where its Mayor Andy Burnham is always bleating on?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcjAVtY6cJM
Last edited by: Fullchat on Sun 7 Feb 21 at 14:59
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You're right no doubt FC.
The donut part was not intended to be taken literally.
I just think life is hard enough at the moment without the aggravating factor of £200 fine based on...what? I wish Zippy could tell us whether the excuse was judged unreasonable or they just didn't believe him.
A £200 penalty is pretty heavy, and should I think have merited a little bit of enquiry.
I do agree that the pee-takers need dealing with. But there are plenty of proper ones.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 7 Feb 21 at 15:10
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>>
>> Bit early for doughnuts even for the Old Bill.
>>
We were suspiciously close to a McDs!
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Of course. McDs breakfast. I must admit I'm having a yearning for one.
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>> Of course. McDs breakfast. I must admit I'm having a yearning for one.
>>
In the spirit of lockdown, Mrs Z has found that the ingredients for a McMuffin can be purchased from Morrisons:
English Muffin, Sausage "burgers" or bacon as required, cheese and eggs. She even got a little stainless steel hoop for the eggs so they retain their shape.
She has treated me to them on occasion - and they are as good as, if not better than the ones in McDs!
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Necessity can realistically only be a matter of judgement since it is impossible to define every possible circumstance.
I have to wonder what the bluebottles would consider a reasonable excuse. Does it have to be life or death?
You could probably even make a case for that if you worked on it - your journey was clearly not wilful premeditated flouting but a reasonable instinctive response to a direct request from your daughter to help get her to work, presumably to be of more use against COVID than them giving you a ticket or you staying at home and delaying her.
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Sorry to hear that zippy .
This is how a police state operates..Off the subject but still part of it.Read Klaus Schwab a German Professor.Covid -19 The great reset.Klaus and Mister Globil know what is best for you.Your fine is just the start you will obey to their will.
Also the Hamburg syndrome a interesting film to watch produced many years ago.We are all blindly walking into a trap.You can ridicule me but it wil happen if we let it.Build back better for who?
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Let me be the first to ridicule you.
I suggest you take a trip to police state to see how one really operates. Try Russia N Korea or Myanma.
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CG was too quick for me, but let me add ...
You are a ridiculous, small-minded fool who has neither the wit not the will to deal with the real world and thus resorts to other people's conspiracy theories so that you don't feel alone a d have something nice CE and simple to believe.
TL:Dr - you're a dick.
Now shush, the rugby is about to start...
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 7 Feb 21 at 14:51
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>> This is how a police state operates..Off the subject but still part of it.Read Klaus
>> Schwab a German Professor.Covid -19 The great reset.Klaus and Mister Globil know what is best
>> for you.Your fine is just the start you will obey to their will.
I know Smurfs are blue. Are they Fluffy as well?
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>>Smurf
Ridiculous!
Even when I was at a nadir with prosecution, I did not think we were in a police state.
I know some b***** good police officers.
One officer and his family I count as amongst my best friends. We spend time together, swap Christmas presents and go for pizza / curry and beer. I would trust him more than any other person I know - based on actual events when he came through for me and I have likewise for him.
So don't give me this guff about a police state.
The officers that stopped me this morning were polite. I guess they made their opinion on how I looked - I was unshaved / un-showered and in scruffy jogging bottoms and torn jumper.
Yes, it's a nuisance, but no more. Even if I don't get off, the fine is going to be £200 at worst.
I wasn't beaten, arrested, didn't end up with broken bones etc.
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The Great Reset.
Hijacked by right-wing conspiracy theorists with the usual lack of credible evidence, designed to produce paranoia amongst the fools who believe it. The Global Elite, the plandemic, etc. etc. Shall we add Soros and Gates?
Fortunately, no-one with an ounce of common sense and no-one who matters actually takes this rubbish seriously.
Lizards, anyone?
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Fortunately, no-one with an ounce of common sense and no-one who matters actually takes this rubbish seriously.
Unfortunatley that still leaves a significant portion of the population .
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>> Fortunately, no-one with an ounce of common sense and no-one who matters actually takes this
>> rubbish seriously.
>>
>> Unfortunatley that still leaves a significant portion of the population .
And as the GOP is now demonstrating, when being re-elected depends on the thickos the politicians will not disavow the bonkers theories.
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It makes you almost doubt whether the policy of universal adult suffrage really is such a good idea
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>> This is how a police state operates..Off the subject but still part of it.Read Klaus
>> Schwab a German Professor.Covid -19 The great reset.Klaus and Mister Globil know what is best
>> for you.Your fine is just the start you will obey to their will.
If this was a police state you would have been shot by now.
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Getting back on track, I could have had no complaints had I been stopped and fined today. I decided to give the bike a short run, keep the battery in full fettle and circulate the oil, etc. I only did eight miles but it was purely a non essential journey though I did head off towards a Tesco Local so I'd have an excuse if I was stopped. At least on the way there, coming back empty handed would have been a give away.
Bad luck, Zippy.
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So yesterday without thinking I ordered a light fitting from Homebase, for collection. I went along after 7 to miss the crowds - which worked perfectly, as it happened, as it was shut!! So I was thinking I'd go again tomorrow. I guess that's not essential though.
And my car has started playing up when charging, which is a 40 mile drive to the specialist dealer. Guess that'll have to wait too.
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 7 Feb 21 at 18:14
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Well I decided I'd pop to Homebase to pick up the light fitting in a few minutes. If I'm missing for a few days assume I've probably been banged up in chokey...
The car can wait a few days while I think about it. It's a quite long trip and I'd be doing it at least twice, and their comfy customer waiting area is closed so I'd have to wait out in the cold. Also I'm hardly using the car at the moment anyway, and I can use it on petrol anyway. I may change my mind though.
It came up in discussion with mates last night (virtually of course) so I related Zippy's tale, all found it quite shocking on the face of it, but with a few queries...
How far had you gone off route to get petrol?
Had you possibly passed the (maybe parked) police car more than once?
Were you able to show the police any evidence that you'd bought or needed petrol?
But in general I told them that I trusted your version but, as I say, they were all surprised you got done.
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"so I related Zippy's tale, all found it quite shocking........"
As did I.
My daughter normally walks to/from her job in a supermarket about a mile away but, if the weather is bad i.e. rain/snow etc, then I drive her; she can't drive. After a couple of inches of snow overnight, I took her to work this morning and, if conditions allow, I will pick her up after her shift this evening. I do not expect to be troubled by the police.
A couple of punctures had presented us with the opportunity to replace all 4 tyres on the B-max with Vector 4 Seasons Gen 2. The current snow, albeit light, has been the first occasion that we could test the tyres - and they performed very satisfactorily.
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>> How far had you gone off route to get petrol?
>>
The nearest petrol station was an Esso but it was just opening so I couldn't be bothered to wait.
The next nearest was a Sainsbury's, but I went about a mile and a half from the hospital to a Tesco, because they have pay at pump and more importantly - a McDonalds on the estate and I fancied a breakfast.
>> Had you possibly passed the (maybe parked) police car more than once?
No idea, but I had gone down the dual carriageway in one direction then back about 10 minutes later after I had dropped Miss Z off. It's on the dual carriageway that they pulled me over, just a quarter mile or so from the Tesco.
>>
>> Were you able to show the police any evidence that you'd bought or needed petrol?
>>
Yes, but the point they made was that I should not have travelled to buy petrol, even though I wasn't just buying petrol.
>>
>> they were all surprised you got done.
>>
So was I. I thought I was going to be done for speeding!
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>> Yes, but the point they made was that I should not have travelled to buy
>> petrol, even though I wasn't just buying petrol.
Shouldn't have travelled at all for that purpose or that you were traveling further than you needed to ?
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>> So was I. I thought I was going to be done for speeding!
>>
I am open to correction, but I think that what you got was a FPN - Fixed Penalty Notice - surely you can wait for the confirmation to come through and then appeal against it. In the circs. I would have thought that you had reasonable grounds etc.
IANAL.
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>> I am open to correction, but I think that what you got was a FPN
>> - Fixed Penalty Notice - surely you can wait for the confirmation to come through
>> and then appeal against it. In the circs. I would have thought that you had
>> reasonable grounds etc.
>>
>> IANAL.
I think the relevant regulations for fixed penalties (based on a link from the .gov website) are these:
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/regulation/11
In effect the FPN provides an opportunity to hold up your hand and, by paying the penalty, avoid prosecution. Unlike (say) parking on a yellow line there's no formal opportunity to make representations. If the FPN is unpaid after 28 days then the 'offender' is open to prosecution in the Magistrates Court where both sides will be heard.
As already suggested there is nothing to stop Zippy pointing out the facts and showing why he had an excuse for doing what he did.
Although taking a close family member and keyworker to work isn't one of the excuses specifically set out it'd be a cold hearted and ill advised magistrate who, presented with evidence from Zippy and his daughter, found there was no excuse.
As far as buying petrol is concerned that IS one of the specified excuses. You can leave your house for the purpose of obtaining supplies from those businesses permitted to remain open.
Filling stations are permitted to remain open.
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Oh! So I was OK going to Homebase then. and do you think I'd be OK driving to get the car seen to?
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it would be legal to drive to your garage or to your local Homebase. We are all however all asked to only travel when absolutely necessary. That's a question only you can answer.
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>> I fancied a breakfast
I fancied a had been roused from my sleep to help my daughter get to her important work fighting the pandemic, so I had left home without having breakfast. I now needed some fuel, hydration and food before journeying home so...
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I also think it is appalling that common sense did not prevail in your situation Zippy. Particularly as your daughter is such a key worker, your journey and the decision to make it makes absolute sense to me.
I was on a business trip on Friday and couldn't help noticing that cars were being ( apparently randomly ) pulled over by the police on the M5 and M6.
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Because of the snow, Miss Z was picked up by a volunteer in a large 4x4 this morning. It looked like a Ford Ranger type vehicle but I didn't get a proper look.
I'll ask her what it was when she gets home but she probably won't notice.
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"Because of the snow, Miss Z was picked up by a volunteer in a large 4x4 this morning."
Fair enough - but in covid terms - would it not be preferable for you to drive her than for a stranger to do it who is not from your household? The thinking is not joined up.
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>> Fair enough - but in covid terms - would it not be preferable for you
>> to drive her than for a stranger to do it who is not from your
>> household? The thinking is not joined up.
I'm guessing the volunteer driver is part of a scheme run by the hospital where Miss Z works and is intended to ensure key staff are less likely to be unable to attend work and/or fetch up in a snowdrift.
There is guidance about car sharing and mitigating risk.
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Leicester to the Lake District. Wild camping in uunsafe conditions. And that's before 'life changing injuries' to a member of Patterdale Mountain Rescue.
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/08/police-issue-lake-district-warning-rescuer-fall-covid-lockdown
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>>Leicester to the Lake District. Wild camping in unsafe conditions.
And there is the difference between "without a reasonable excuse" and what Zippy did.
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Well I think I’d challenge it too in those circumstance! Though I’m surprised you were even stopped. I haven’t really modified my driving habits in terms of distance, location or times travelled in the current lockdown and rarely see a police car let alone be at risk of being stopped. I live near Arundel, and travel 20ish miles east or west most days, and up to Berkshire every 10 days or so, which must be 60 miles as the crow flies. The last police car I saw was yesterday going through the drive thru McDonalds in Chichester, when I was queuing in the drive thru Costa. It then parked so they could eat their food, which is fair enough...but the place was packed and I’m not sure all were ‘necessary’ journeys. A McDonald’s at 16:00 is probably the very definition of unnecessary ;)
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I had to travel forty miles yesterday for what I considered an essential reason. Traveled in plain sight, roads were quieter than normal for sure - but there didn't seem to be many Police about.
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As a regular YouTuber I just wondered how the guys who post car reviews consider their work? one I watch has just done an in-depth review on the main dealers forecourt with buyers in the background looking at cars, how is this possible?
What about the guys driving miles doing new car reviews, I know for some it's now become their job but would they be thought as 'essential' if stopped?
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>> As a regular YouTuber I just wondered how the guys who post car reviews consider
>> their work? one I watch has just done an in-depth review on the main dealers
>> forecourt with buyers in the background looking at cars, how is this possible?
Which one is that?
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e_IicpT664
New Golf R, good channel for VW owners.
Maybe hard to see but apart from the reviewer there are a couple looking at the cars in the background.
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My point being that there must some kind of dispensation for car reviewers who do this as a job otherwise why would effectively post video evidence of your 'non-essential' movements to the internet where you've recorded yourself test-driving a car showing it's performance and handling.
I don't have problem with them but I'm just curious considering the theme of this post and what happened to zippy.
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There doesn't have to be any dispensation, they simply may never have been stopped and questioned. If they are perhaps they could claim to be journalists?
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Apologies if I missed it, but may I ask how this matter was resolved? I would hope that the whole nonsense was dropped.
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I have been waiting for the fine to come through but nothing has been received as yet.
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Does it have to be in the post in 14 days like a speeding fine NIP or is it the full 6 months?
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>> Does it have to be in the post in 14 days like a speeding fine
>> NIP or is it the full 6 months?
I don't think there's a time limit to serve the Fixed Penalty Notice. However once it is served then 28 days must elapse before commencing proceedings and on my reading the regulations require the offer off a fixed penalty as an option.
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/750/regulation/14
I wonder whether, in your case, the facts mean it didn't get beyond a quick review of suitability for prosecution.
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I found the above thread just after the following had occurred.
Our Hyundai i10 had not been used for two months. Mrs. Ambo (technically the owner) had been suffering an arm pain and couldn't drive. I couldn't drive either for other reasons. I was afraid the battery had gone dead and that the brake disks had rusted.
I decided to try starting, successfully. Having used remedial exercises to good effect, she decided to drive it for about 15 minutes round the block to charge the battery and using plenty of braking to clear the disks.
Is this essential enough to avoid a fine?
Two things that are regarded as essential are exercise and shopping and we were used to drive a quarter-mile to our local park for both, using my Blue Badge when necessary.
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>> Is this essential enough to avoid a fine?
You need a reasonable excuse to be out of the house. Going shopping or reasonably locally to exercise* are specific excuses provided for in the legislation. Moving an under used car to ensure it remains available for emergencies has reasonable chances as an excuse but I don't think it's covered specifically.
*We're allowed to drive somewhere to exercise in England but not so in Wales.
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>>
>> Two things that are regarded as essential are exercise and shopping and we were used
>> to drive a quarter-mile to our local park for both, using my Blue Badge when
>> necessary.
>>
If you were going to "the local park" for exercise and it's 400 yards away, why didn't you walk there - for the exercise?
Better for you, better for the car.
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>> If you were going to "the local park" for exercise and it's 400 yards away,
>> why didn't you walk there - for the exercise?
>>
>> Better for you, better for the car.
Maybe the fact that Ambo mentions a Blue Badge affects the mechanics of exercise?
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The park is at the foot of a steep downhill walk. I might be able to reach it, 6 slow steps at a time. I cannot get back uphill.
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My First Covid Fine :-( - No FM2R
