Non-motoring > Bitcoin as an investment Miscellaneous
Thread Author: smokie Replies: 41

 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I've missed the boat with this one this time around but the price of Bitcoin has virtually doubled since mid Nov, and appears to have quadrupled in the last 12 months.

I don't get it but has anyone here dabbled in them, as an investment? I can do it easily, it's just another currency on my Revolut card which I can exchange into or out of.

I expect the wheels will come off big time before too long.

12 month chart here
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
Just two days ago I was looking at a Reddit discussion from 2012. The guy had 384 bitcoins - and had lost the password for his wallet. He was distraught - they were worth nearly £3000. Nobody could help.

Assuming he never recovered the password, but still has the wallet, then today, he's looking at over nine million quid he still can't access...
 Bitcoin as an investment - Runfer D'Hills
More doh than dough then?...
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
 Bitcoin as an investment - sooty123
I did think about it roughly three years ago, but discounted as, after reading a BBC report it seemed difficult to get your money when you wanted.
They did explain it but it seemed a bit complicated (to me anyway) so I didn't bother.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Zero
You really want to invest in something that does not actually exist?
 Bitcoin as an investment - Terry
Currency speculation is a gamble even for the well informed.

With major "traditional" currencies there is at least a central bank sitting behind it, and some connection to real world interest rates, trade balances, inflation, productivity etc.

Bitcoin is trust in a computer algorithm with zero connection to reality. Its value is whatever people think it is - be they Russian oiligarchs, assorted billionaires, slush fund owners, drug and arms dealers, etc. Plus, of course, supremely confident gamblers!

If you can't explain why the price has fluctuated wildly in the past, there can be no rational logic attached to how it will move in the future. Gamble by all means, but don't bet the house on it!
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Yep I know all about that, I was just curious whether I knew anyone who had done it.

I might buy a tenners worth now just because I can :-) I see it's up over 10% since 1 Jan. (Not really the time to be buying though - buy the troughs...)
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
There, used a few leftover Euros on my Revolut and am the proud owner of 0.00047363 Bitcoin (€13 incl charges). Current exchange rate is £23869.92, down 0.83% today according to the app.

EDIT: a few minutes later... Made 5p already!! :-) Now £11.35 (£11.30 at purchase)
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 3 Jan 21 at 18:56
 Bitcoin as an investment - tyrednemotional

>> EDIT: a few minutes later... Made 5p already!! :-) Now £11.35 (£11.30 at purchase)
...that's me manipulating it through its linkage with pork belly futures!

I'd sell pdq if I were you. ;-)
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Mate made significantly over £1m on BTC on an initial 10 grand investment.

He sold up after they went over £10k/BTC.

Would be over £3m if he had held onto them but he said he was going nuts checking the price all the time and doesn't regret selling.
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Oops I'd forgotten about this.

My £11.35 is now £13.29, in just a few days!!

Maserati here we come... :-)
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
I know nothing about Bitcoin. I just googled at random, and some site or other offered me £200 worth, click here guv.

I didn't, but I looked up the value on Google of the 0.00639 bitcoin i would have got - £193.

Fair enough. I explained to Mrs C, for about three minutes. By that time it was up to £197.50.

Crikey. Shan't be doing it though, too complex for my tiny brain.

How's the £13.29, smokie?
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Now £14.31. That's better than 25% since Sunday!!!
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
Just been looking at this

Set it up, tweak it, let it lose all your cash. Sounds great.

 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Ooo that looks like fun!! I've not had a bet for ages!! :-)

Just stuck €25 on (€10 wasn't enough to place a bet), could be a millionaire by this time next week!! LOL

It's up 0,4% in 4 minutes!! I don't think I've got it auto investing yet though, can't see how to do it.
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 8 Jan 21 at 16:39
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
Don't you just set your triggers? your Hopper/triggers/
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Geez. I didn't expect to have to understand what I was doing, I thought it;s be like in Ladbrokes where you just pick whichever dog has just done a whoopsy and that was it!!! :-)

I hadn't set any triggers, I'd done a manual buy and it auto sold it. Had almost lost interest in it so thanks for the steer!!!
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
If I were doing it, then I'd want to chuck in some money to the hopper, then have it auto sell such that it paid me £25, every time it rose enough to do that. If the market fell such that my investment was worth only half of the start, it would sell the lot and be done.

At worst you lose half, at best it spits out £25 chunks every so often.

 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I'm a bit more adventurous, I've only put a spare €25 in and I think I've just let it accumulate until I stop it. If I had a more serious amount in I'd take more care but this is a bit of lockdown fun - less than the cost of two nights at the pub...

The triggers require as bit of understanding which is why, I expect, it's not bought me anything yet. I've set up a 4 hour candle, to trigger when EMA signals a Buy with a short period of 10 and a long period of 20. I've no idea what that means but it was close to being a default. I was hoping it would spring into action immediately...
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 8 Jan 21 at 18:23
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
For the autistic obsessives amongst us, it's a dream. I shall have to have a go.
 Bitcoin as an investment - bathtub tom
>>at best it spits out £25 chunks every so often.

Just like my premium bonds, although not so often.
 Bitcoin as an investment - John Boy
FCA warning about "cryptoassets such as bitcoin":
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I expect they raise a very good point. I am not seriously thinking of investing in Bitcoin.

My £11:35 went over £14 at the weekend but has gone back to £11.63.

Been busy with other stuff and forgot about the toy CC put me onto. I couldn't work out how to make it auto-trade and lost interest. Will go back to it sometime...
 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
"There is no guarantee that cryptoassets can be converted back into cash, putting consumers at the mercy of supply and demand in the market."

Cryptoassets absolutely can't be converted into cash, only sold or exchanged to somebody who believes in their value which isn't quite the same thing.

Almost the same can be said of fiat currency which has the additional disadvantage that unlimited quantities can be printed but with an established system it's hard to see it being as unstable in the short term.

Once people start selling bitcoin it only stops falling when there are more buyer than sellers. The currency should substantially hold value as long as the government can restrain itself from printing too much.

Is bitcoin a bubble? Definitely. Do I wish I had even one? Yes. Would I sell it? Yes.
 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
- It's a quick way of moving money

(It's pretty expensive moving money, especially if you want to do it quickly. Whereas to buy Bitcoin from a bank account in one country and to sell it with the money going to a bank account in another country is, depending on a few things, free of admin charges, currency charges and banking delays)

- It is untraceable and untrackable up to the point when it is sold for real money.

- Its unit price absolutely depends on more people wanting it than have it and a belief that will always be the case. If not supply & demand will drop it through the floor.

- Faith that it can always be exchanged for real money. Countries/banks are likely to step up the focus on the source of funds converted from bitcoin et al as part of money laundering and proceeds from crime legislation and regulation.

It is as close to gambling as one can get and thus should be done only with money that you can afford to lose. Not my sort of investment at all. Risk/reward ratios are a thing for a reason.

That said, it is possible to win big, though knowing when to quite would be smart.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 11 Jan 21 at 15:08
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
I don't really understand the idea of "mining" bitcoin, though it seems that is what is driving the very high prices and scarcity of the new Nvidia graphics cards.

I also havent delved into the maths to understand why there will only ever be 21 million bitcoin.

I think I'm happier with these white fivers in my wallet. I'm sure they are better value...
 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
If you look into the electricity cost of mining a BTC (on a scale of £10,000 in 2020 but it goes up as processing power increases) you'll see there is a kind of basis for value.

If you have a dedicated miner computer consuming the same as a 3 bar electric fire round the clock you might mine 1/4 of a BTC in a year. The key to profitable mining is cheaper electricity than you can readily buy in the UK, and turning your miner on and off as the BTC price falls and rises. You might as well just buy BTC when you think it's cheap and sell when the price goes up, and hope you aren't holding them when the bubble bursts or the world's governments successfully stop bitcoin transactions.

It has been estimated that 1% of the world's electricity generation is going to bitcoin mining. If this is true then arguably it is not only environmentally disastrous but also inefficient compared with conventional payment systems. I've given up researching this because the sources I've found don't really stand scrutiny e.g. some don't seem to understand the difference between GW and GWh so you're never quite sure how to interpret the information.

 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
Hence the effort put in to using botnets / hijacked home PCs etc. to perform the calculations.

Abut 2 years ago I find a friend's computer which was deathly slow was being used for just that.
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I think I'd heard even phones scan be hijacked now.

I exchanged back my bitcoins at a small loss. Still need to work out that auto gambling machine as I have a stake in it, luckily uninvested, as most cryptos seem to have gone down by a min of 20% today.!
 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
>>I think I'd heard even phones scan be hijacked now.

I hadn't heard that, but I don't doubt it for one moment.
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
>> >>I think I'd heard even phones scan be hijacked now.
>> I hadn't heard that, but I don't doubt it for one moment.

Basically almost any device that can run Java embedded in to a webpage with an internet connection can be high jacked.

Just include the mining code within the necessary code for the web page and get it to report back the result of the calculation.

I have no idea how to implement it but have seen it demonstrated by our IT staff when being introduced to our hacking community to show them what my division does.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Kevin
The mining code doesn't need to be included in the webpage. You just call it from a remote site.

Another attack vector that gained some interest last week was the subversion of established browser extensions.
The writer/owner of a browser extension downloaded by 2M+ users sold the rights to an unknown party who made 'updates' to the code without documenting those changes. When some folks decided to look at the code changes (on GitHub) they found that what appeared to be innocuous additions of open source analytics code was in fact calling remote scripts and had links to other extensions that had been bought and replaced with malware.
Updates to the extension had also been downloaded automatically so it is probable that some users were running the suspect code without knowing it.
The moral of the story is be careful with what extensions you download, do not allow auto updates and don't update manually until you've checked that it's still clean.
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
>> The mining code doesn't need to be included in the webpage. You just call it

Just goes to show how ingenious these people are and how quickly methods of attack can change.

If they put it to good use then the world would probably be a better place.

(I wonder how many of these hackers are state sponsored.)
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase

>> It has been estimated that 1% of the world's electricity generation is going to bitcoin
>> mining.

Flinking blip! That's one to drop into conversation, if I ever meet anyone again.
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
 Bitcoin as an investment - Zero

>> - It is untraceable and untrackable up to the point where is sold for
>> real money.
one of the worlds major broker/keeper of other peoples bitcoins dies and no-one knows his crypto keys leading to speculation that he never had them in the first place.
 Bitcoin as an investment - helicopter
Article in todays Telegraph , Bitcoin values crashed 25% over the weekend from $40,000 to $30,000 .
Average loss to UK investors in Bitcoin of £2300. Total loss to Britons is estimated £4.4 billion.
Price has now recovered to $30,000 but I won't be investing anytime soon.....

Last edited by: helicopter on Wed 13 Jan 21 at 11:17
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
It’s not an investment, it’s a gamble. An investment suggests backing by assets, business plans etc.

Mind you, I wish I put a punt on it when a mate told me about them when they were £300 each!
 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
>> It’s not an investment, it’s a gamble. An investment suggests backing by assets, business plans
>> etc.
>> Mind you, I wish I put a punt on it when a mate told me
>> about them when they were £300 each!

So do I, but I'd probably have been dealing with the bloke who was running the Ponzi scheme/didn't leave the password and died, and spent the rest of my life in bitter regret.

I remind myself that money doesn't matter as long as it doesn't run out.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Haywain
This story is currently in the Telegraph....

 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
That was a different story Haywain.
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