Non-motoring > Bitcoin as an investment Miscellaneous
Thread Author: smokie Replies: 105

 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I've missed the boat with this one this time around but the price of Bitcoin has virtually doubled since mid Nov, and appears to have quadrupled in the last 12 months.

I don't get it but has anyone here dabbled in them, as an investment? I can do it easily, it's just another currency on my Revolut card which I can exchange into or out of.

I expect the wheels will come off big time before too long.

12 month chart here

ycharts.com/indicators/bitcoin_price
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
Just two days ago I was looking at a Reddit discussion from 2012. The guy had 384 bitcoins - and had lost the password for his wallet. He was distraught - they were worth nearly £3000. Nobody could help.


Assuming he never recovered the password, but still has the wallet, then today, he's looking at over nine million quid he still can't access...
 Bitcoin as an investment - Runfer D'Hills
More doh than dough then?...
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
Ouch....!

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/man-offering-welsh-council-74-13993161
 Bitcoin as an investment - sooty123
I did think about it roughly three years ago, but discounted as, after reading a BBC report it seemed difficult to get your money when you wanted.
They did explain it but it seemed a bit complicated (to me anyway) so I didn't bother.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Zero
You really want to invest in something that does not actually exist?
 Bitcoin as an investment - Terry
Currency speculation is a gamble even for the well informed.

With major "traditional" currencies there is at least a central bank sitting behind it, and some connection to real world interest rates, trade balances, inflation, productivity etc.

Bitcoin is trust in a computer algorithm with zero connection to reality. Its value is whatever people think it is - be they Russian oiligarchs, assorted billionaires, slush fund owners, drug and arms dealers, etc. Plus, of course, supremely confident gamblers!

If you can't explain why the price has fluctuated wildly in the past, there can be no rational logic attached to how it will move in the future. Gamble by all means, but don't bet the house on it!
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Yep I know all about that, I was just curious whether I knew anyone who had done it.

I might buy a tenners worth now just because I can :-) I see it's up over 10% since 1 Jan. (Not really the time to be buying though - buy the troughs...)
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
There, used a few leftover Euros on my Revolut and am the proud owner of 0.00047363 Bitcoin (€13 incl charges). Current exchange rate is £23869.92, down 0.83% today according to the app.

EDIT: a few minutes later... Made 5p already!! :-) Now £11.35 (£11.30 at purchase)
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 3 Jan 21 at 18:56
 Bitcoin as an investment - tyrednemotional

>> EDIT: a few minutes later... Made 5p already!! :-) Now £11.35 (£11.30 at purchase)
>>
...that's me manipulating it through its linkage with pork belly futures!

I'd sell pdq if I were you. ;-)
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Mate made significantly over £1m on BTC on an initial 10 grand investment.

He sold up after they went over £10k/BTC.

Would be over £3m if he had held onto them but he said he was going nuts checking the price all the time and doesn't regret selling.
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Oops I'd forgotten about this.

My £11.35 is now £13.29, in just a few days!!

Maserati here we come... :-)
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
I know nothing about Bitcoin. I just googled at random, and some site or other offered me £200 worth, click here guv.

I didn't, but I looked up the value on Google of the 0.00639 bitcoin i would have got - £193.

Fair enough. I explained to Mrs C, for about three minutes. By that time it was up to £197.50.

Crikey. Shan't be doing it though, too complex for my tiny brain.

How's the £13.29, smokie?
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Now £14.31. That's better than 25% since Sunday!!!
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
Just been looking at this

www.cryptohopper.com

Set it up, tweak it, let it lose all your cash. Sounds great.

 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Ooo that looks like fun!! I've not had a bet for ages!! :-)

Just stuck €25 on (€10 wasn't enough to place a bet), could be a millionaire by this time next week!! LOL

It's up 0,4% in 4 minutes!! I don't think I've got it auto investing yet though, can't see how to do it.
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 8 Jan 21 at 16:39
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
Don't you just set your triggers?

docs.cryptohopper.com/docs/en/Configuring your Hopper/triggers/
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Geez. I didn't expect to have to understand what I was doing, I thought it;s be like in Ladbrokes where you just pick whichever dog has just done a whoopsy and that was it!!! :-)

I hadn't set any triggers, I'd done a manual buy and it auto sold it. Had almost lost interest in it so thanks for the steer!!!
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
If I were doing it, then I'd want to chuck in some money to the hopper, then have it auto sell such that it paid me £25, every time it rose enough to do that. If the market fell such that my investment was worth only half of the start, it would sell the lot and be done.

At worst you lose half, at best it spits out £25 chunks every so often.

 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I'm a bit more adventurous, I've only put a spare €25 in and I think I've just let it accumulate until I stop it. If I had a more serious amount in I'd take more care but this is a bit of lockdown fun - less than the cost of two nights at the pub...

The triggers require as bit of understanding which is why, I expect, it's not bought me anything yet. I've set up a 4 hour candle, to trigger when EMA signals a Buy with a short period of 10 and a long period of 20. I've no idea what that means but it was close to being a default. I was hoping it would spring into action immediately...
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 8 Jan 21 at 18:23
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
For the autistic obsessives amongst us, it's a dream. I shall have to have a go.
 Bitcoin as an investment - bathtub tom
>>at best it spits out £25 chunks every so often.

Just like my premium bonds, although not so often.
 Bitcoin as an investment - John Boy
FCA warning about "cryptoassets such as bitcoin":

tinyurl.com/yxo7mb6u
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I expect they raise a very good point. I am not seriously thinking of investing in Bitcoin.

My £11:35 went over £14 at the weekend but has gone back to £11.63.

Been busy with other stuff and forgot about the toy CC put me onto. I couldn't work out how to make it auto-trade and lost interest. Will go back to it sometime...
 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
"There is no guarantee that cryptoassets can be converted back into cash, putting consumers at the mercy of supply and demand in the market."

Cryptoassets absolutely can't be converted into cash, only sold or exchanged to somebody who believes in their value which isn't quite the same thing.

Almost the same can be said of fiat currency which has the additional disadvantage that unlimited quantities can be printed but with an established system it's hard to see it being as unstable in the short term.

Once people start selling bitcoin it only stops falling when there are more buyer than sellers. The currency should substantially hold value as long as the government can restrain itself from printing too much.

Is bitcoin a bubble? Definitely. Do I wish I had even one? Yes. Would I sell it? Yes.
 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
- It's a quick way of moving money

(It's pretty expensive moving money, especially if you want to do it quickly. Whereas to buy Bitcoin from a bank account in one country and to sell it with the money going to a bank account in another country is, depending on a few things, free of admin charges, currency charges and banking delays)

- It is untraceable and untrackable up to the point when it is sold for real money.

- Its unit price absolutely depends on more people wanting it than have it and a belief that will always be the case. If not supply & demand will drop it through the floor.

- Faith that it can always be exchanged for real money. Countries/banks are likely to step up the focus on the source of funds converted from bitcoin et al as part of money laundering and proceeds from crime legislation and regulation.

It is as close to gambling as one can get and thus should be done only with money that you can afford to lose. Not my sort of investment at all. Risk/reward ratios are a thing for a reason.

That said, it is possible to win big, though knowing when to quite would be smart.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 11 Jan 21 at 15:08
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase
I don't really understand the idea of "mining" bitcoin, though it seems that is what is driving the very high prices and scarcity of the new Nvidia graphics cards.

I also havent delved into the maths to understand why there will only ever be 21 million bitcoin.

I think I'm happier with these white fivers in my wallet. I'm sure they are better value...
 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
If you look into the electricity cost of mining a BTC (on a scale of £10,000 in 2020 but it goes up as processing power increases) you'll see there is a kind of basis for value.

If you have a dedicated miner computer consuming the same as a 3 bar electric fire round the clock you might mine 1/4 of a BTC in a year. The key to profitable mining is cheaper electricity than you can readily buy in the UK, and turning your miner on and off as the BTC price falls and rises. You might as well just buy BTC when you think it's cheap and sell when the price goes up, and hope you aren't holding them when the bubble bursts or the world's governments successfully stop bitcoin transactions.

It has been estimated that 1% of the world's electricity generation is going to bitcoin mining. If this is true then arguably it is not only environmentally disastrous but also inefficient compared with conventional payment systems. I've given up researching this because the sources I've found don't really stand scrutiny e.g. some don't seem to understand the difference between GW and GWh so you're never quite sure how to interpret the information.

 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
Hence the effort put in to using botnets / hijacked home PCs etc. to perform the calculations.

Abut 2 years ago I find a friend's computer which was deathly slow was being used for just that.
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I think I'd heard even phones scan be hijacked now.

I exchanged back my bitcoins at a small loss. Still need to work out that auto gambling machine as I have a stake in it, luckily uninvested, as most cryptos seem to have gone down by a min of 20% today.!
 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
>>I think I'd heard even phones scan be hijacked now.

I hadn't heard that, but I don't doubt it for one moment.
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
>> >>I think I'd heard even phones scan be hijacked now.
>>
>> I hadn't heard that, but I don't doubt it for one moment.
>>

Basically almost any device that can run Java embedded in to a webpage with an internet connection can be high jacked.

Just include the mining code within the necessary code for the web page and get it to report back the result of the calculation.

I have no idea how to implement it but have seen it demonstrated by our IT staff when being introduced to our hacking community to show them what my division does.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Kevin
The mining code doesn't need to be included in the webpage. You just call it from a remote site.

Another attack vector that gained some interest last week was the subversion of established browser extensions.
The writer/owner of a browser extension downloaded by 2M+ users sold the rights to an unknown party who made 'updates' to the code without documenting those changes. When some folks decided to look at the code changes (on GitHub) they found that what appeared to be innocuous additions of open source analytics code was in fact calling remote scripts and had links to other extensions that had been bought and replaced with malware.
Updates to the extension had also been downloaded automatically so it is probable that some users were running the suspect code without knowing it.
The moral of the story is be careful with what extensions you download, do not allow auto updates and don't update manually until you've checked that it's still clean.
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
>> The mining code doesn't need to be included in the webpage. You just call it

Just goes to show how ingenious these people are and how quickly methods of attack can change.

If they put it to good use then the world would probably be a better place.

(I wonder how many of these hackers are state sponsored.)
 Bitcoin as an investment - Crankcase

>> It has been estimated that 1% of the world's electricity generation is going to bitcoin
>> mining.

Flinking blip! That's one to drop into conversation, if I ever meet anyone again.
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
www.cbeci.org/cbeci/comparisons
 Bitcoin as an investment - Zero

>> - It is untraceable and untrackable up to the point where is sold for
>> real money.
one of the worlds major broker/keeper of other peoples bitcoins dies and no-one knows his crypto keys leading to speculation that he never had them in the first place.
 Bitcoin as an investment - helicopter
Article in todays Telegraph , Bitcoin values crashed 25% over the weekend from $40,000 to $30,000 .
Average loss to UK investors in Bitcoin of £2300. Total loss to Britons is estimated £4.4 billion.
Price has now recovered to $30,000 but I won't be investing anytime soon.....



Last edited by: helicopter on Wed 13 Jan 21 at 11:17
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
It’s not an investment, it’s a gamble. An investment suggests backing by assets, business plans etc.

Mind you, I wish I put a punt on it when a mate told me about them when they were £300 each!
 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
>> It’s not an investment, it’s a gamble. An investment suggests backing by assets, business plans
>> etc.
>>
>> Mind you, I wish I put a punt on it when a mate told me
>> about them when they were £300 each!

So do I, but I'd probably have been dealing with the bloke who was running the Ponzi scheme/didn't leave the password and died, and spent the rest of my life in bitter regret.

I remind myself that money doesn't matter as long as it doesn't run out.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Haywain
This story is currently in the Telegraph....

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/12/bitcoin-owner-has-two-guesses-left-unlock-220m-cryptocurrency/

 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
That was a different story Haywain.

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bitcoin-exchange-quadrigacx-password-cryptocurrency-scam-a8763676.html
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Tesla bought $1.5bn of Bitcoin in January, with plans to take it for cars.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55939972

As of typing is now £34,000 per BTC
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 9 Feb 21 at 08:46
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Well I did put my £11 back into BTC and right now I could change it back for £14.89.
 Bitcoin as an investment - legacylad
Enough profit for a pint and bag of crisps down the pub
 Bitcoin as an investment - Duncan
Wetherspoons are shut?
 Bitcoin as an investment - legacylad
My man shed is a pop up bar. Am extensive range of bottled beers, with complimentary tapas. Nuts, crisps and pork scratchings
 Bitcoin as an investment - Zero
>> Tesla bought $1.5bn of Bitcoin in January, with plans to take it for cars.

If Elton Tusk is now involved, expert Bitcoin to crash and burn.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos

>> If Elton Tusk is now involved, expert Bitcoin to crash and burn.

According to the crypto lingo, you are just being a salty no-coin.
 Bitcoin as an investment - smurf
Be careful hackers got involved never trust anything you can't control.

 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
My £11 odd is now £15 odd
 Bitcoin as an investment - Zero
Wow coining it in. (did you see what I did there)

I might buy a a bit of a coin, just for the fun..
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 15 Feb 21 at 08:50
 Bitcoin as an investment - legacylad
I just knew you’d have to put in your tuppence worth...
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Just cashed in for £15.12. Not too shabby - something over 30% in not very long. Should have bet more!! :-)
 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
Why'd you cash out?
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
New car. :-)


Don't know really, just thought it might have peaked...

Seeing as the £E15 is going nowhere if the value drops I may try to catch a trough and reinvest and see how much I can make it grow, if at all!!
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 17 Feb 21 at 06:54
 Bitcoin as an investment - legacylad
Smokie...better than Reabold then, which I believe you hold ?
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I do, and it has been - so far.

Reabold have been stagnant longer that I thought they should but they have apparently a major hydrocarbon find somewhere up your end of the country (West Newton - tinyurl.com/y9ptqow3 ) which, so it's said, would be larger than Wytch Farm was back in the ?70s.

The next steps are a competent persons report and an extended well test, and although it feels like slow progress, if they come up trumps then the perceived value is many times it's current share price. Some of that is reasonably imminent.

This is not investment advice!!

EDIT: Looking back, I mentioned Reabold on 29 Sept. In the same thread I mentioned NCYT as being at £5.20. Less than a month later they hit a bit over £12 but are now down again to £7.70ish.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 17 Feb 21 at 10:42
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos

BTC hit £40k earlier this evening.
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Crumbs, I sold too early @ £35570!

I really don't get it...
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
20% of all the dollars ever made were created in 2020.

 Bitcoin as an investment - Zero
Its a Ponzi scheme. Ok its a big one, the biggest ever, so it will take a fair while to reach the point where it fails, but it will come.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Technically not a Ponzi scheme: there is no income paid out to owners.

Whether it is over/undervalued is one question.

The other is can it be cracked/forged/double-spent: if that happens it will be electronic toilet paper.

 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
>>The other is can it be cracked/forged/double-spent

I think the basis of the technology is that there are so many copies of the ledger that it would be impractical to do so. I hope so anyway as my employer (major UK bank) is converting their accounts to blockchain technology.

By their accounts, I mean yours!
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 20 Feb 21 at 10:20
 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
>> (major UK bank) is converting their accounts to blockchain technology.

I wish I knew what that meant.

I assume it means the balances can't just be changed by amending an electronic record unless the money comes from somewhere else, so the total amount in issue remains the same unless new money is officially created. Which is what is supposed to happen anyway.
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
>> >> (major UK bank) is converting their accounts to blockchain technology.
>>
>> I wish I knew what that meant.
>>

Me too!

Try this: www.investopedia.com/terms/b/blockchain.asp

>>
>> Which is what is supposed to happen anyway.
>>

Some of what goes on is frightening.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
>> Its a Ponzi scheme. Ok its a big one, the biggest ever, so it will
>> take a fair while to reach the point where it fails, but it will come.


The same can be said of official currencies.

But the inflation in BC gives away its ephemeral nature. I still wish I'd bought £100 worth 5 years ago.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
>>The same can be said of official currencies

Indeed - what does £1 buy today compared to 1980?
 Bitcoin as an investment - sooty123
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-56215787

Article about bitcoin, mainly on the massive amounts of electricity needed to keep the whole thing going.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Zero
And there will be a shortfall in the required GPUs to keep mining it.

Which of course puts the value up


Till there isnt.
 Bitcoin as an investment - sooty123
I did think it didn't really mention, how/could think keep up with amount of computers needed to keep it going?
 Bitcoin as an investment - Manatee
Perhaps Moore's Law is supposed to balance that out. Or did it turn out not to be a Law? Or did the CAGR of processing speed turn out to be less than that of the processing requirement for completing the blocks?

It still sounds like tulips to me. Unless and until it can supplant a major currency, Shirley its a bubble?
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Tulip demand could always be satisfied ultimately (propagate more).

Similarly sugar cost more than gold by weight until it could be supplied more effectively.

Truffles are hugely expensive because they can't be farmed - if you could grow them in a greenhouse the price would collapse..

Bitcoin supply is limited by design.

 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
Unwittingly we are all paying for the popularity of Bitcoin.

Demands on the electricity grid means that power companies have to build more capacity which is ultimately added to the cost of electricity that we all pay for.
 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
>>which is ultimately added to the cost of electricity that we all pay for.

How's that work? More electricity used means higher revenue. I'm not sure that increased investment in the infrastructure to increase supply would necessarily increase cost for everybody.
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
Electricity supply is finite - limited by generated capacity.

With the advent of smart metering the energy companies will move to a model that charges based on demand. Look at Texas earlier this month where people have received huge electricity bills:

www.npr.org/2021/02/22/970074424/why-some-texas-residents-now-face-huge-electricity-bills

In the UK, we operate a model that has little spare capacity at peak times. To provide for future consumption, the Govt are allowing nuclear power stations to be built with a guaranteed fee per kwh which at the time of signing was twice the price available on the wholesale market. The consumer will have to pay for this.

Rather than fixed ratios between income and costs, there are clear step changes, when new power stations or alternatives are needed. The current structure of the UK market means that the UK consumer will pay for the new capacity through their bills and bitcoin mining in the UK will result in that threshold being reached sooner.
 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
No, I think that's a leap which is not necessarily true. Supply & Demand impacts in Texas are not relevant, quite a different circumstance.
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
>> No, I think that's a leap which is not necessarily true. Supply & Demand impacts
>> in Texas are not relevant, quite a different circumstance.
>>

Texas was used an example of what can happen with peak pricing and bitcoin mining contributes to overall demand.

The stepped increase of cost to produce electricity in the UK are relevant and as bitcoin increases demand then we move closer to the next step and consumers will pay for the necessary increases in capacity.

In the case of electricity from Hinkley, twice the going rate.

Last edited by: zippy on Sun 28 Feb 21 at 13:32
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Octopus's Time of Use (ToU) tariff is capped at 35p a unit at peak time (4pm - 7pm every day). Earlier this year it sat at the max for quite a few days, but without cap I'm sure I read it would have been in excess if £1 per unit (most in the UK don't yet pay 20p a unit).


As an aside, they also now will be your FIT provider, paying you for the power you input to the grid from your home generation (usually solar). There were times when they were paying around £1 a unit but it only cost 35p a unit to buy from them at the same time. And there are quite a few people who have significant battery packs which they can charge at lower rates and feed back in at higher rates.
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
i wasn't about to start a new thread about this but here is an article explaining higher Jan electricity prices.

tinyurl.com/yb4be69t
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Hitting £44k tonight.

My friend who has amassed a substantial stack reckons the $1.9bn US stimulus will be yet another boost for crypto, with US adults being given a $1400 stimulus payment each leading to even more buying crypto "assets".

 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Wow, that's up an awful lot since Elon bought $1.5bn worth somewhere in the low £30s.

The rich get richer...!!!
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 14 Mar 21 at 09:40
 Bitcoin as an investment - henry k
Bitcoin surges past $60,000 for first time
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56390409
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Just had a nosey:

Bitcoin around £38.5k, but Ethereum (which I suspect has more actual practical use) is £2k.

3 mth ago they were £24.3k and £970 respectively.

 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I don't get it really. There is a company called Argo Blockchain (which is probably related to cryptocurrencies, who knows?) that was about 10p a share at Christmas but is about £2 now, went to nearly £3. I think they are "miners" and invested loads in some new rigs. Something like that anyways.
 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
>> I don't get it really.

No, neither do I. A market entirely desire based with no product not value with limited facility beyond sell or buy and no relevance or relationhip to any physical benefit.

How on earth does one judge that?
 Bitcoin as an investment - Ambo
We are told these currencies use vast amounts of energy in their mining although the output is notional. In what sense are they "mined"?
 Bitcoin as an investment - Netsur
There are huge mathematical calculations that need to be undertaken to release more Bitcoin. There are a finite number and as more are 'mined' the calculations get harder requiring enormous amouts of computing power to solve.

Bitcoin mining and maintenance of the blockchain that supports it requires so much energy that it is probably the least green form of value transfer ever created. Hence I will not be involved. Something like the total energy requirement of Portugal is required to keep Bitcoin going.

Imagine the reduction in CO2 emmissions and other infrastructure demands if Bitcoin did not exist?
 Bitcoin as an investment - zippy
>> it is probably the least green form of value transfer ever created. Hence I will
>> not be involved. Something like the total energy requirement of Portugal is required to keep
>> Bitcoin going.
>>
>> Imagine the reduction in CO2 emmissions and other infrastructure demands if Bitcoin did not exist?
>>

As we all contribute to the capital cost of power generation through our bills I believe that Bitcoin and other virtual currency mining is all costing us a bit.

Add to that the fact that energy prices increase when demand is high, the extra costs increases further.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Terry
There is an old phrase in economics - "money is what money buys".

As a proposition this holds true for all currencies - cryptocurrencies are just a means of exchange.

But they are fundamentally differentiated from traditional currencies. the value of most traditional currencies have some connection to a fundamental reality - imports, exports, taxation policies, government policies, balance of payments, relative labour costs, interest rates, inflation etc etc.

This does not means the value of a currency is inviolable - but these constraints add stability.

Cryptocurrencies have no hard links. They are simply a product of supply and demand. There is no accountable central bank or government. It is a gamble, a confidence trick.

Invest at your peril - if the value can double in a month it can halve in a month. And I suspect that governments the world over do not like them or know how to deal witth them - eg: how are bitcoin profits taxed.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
HMRC: As capital gains, or as income if you are a very frequent trader.
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
I said I don't get Bitcoin. I get even less this new phenomena of non-fungible tokens (NFT), which are digital ownership certificates - so you don't actually own anything except a certificate to the "ownership" of the item/ The first tweet was sold for £2.1m. www.bbc.com/news/business-56492358#:~:text=Twitter%20founder%20Jack%20Dorsey%27s%20first,by%20Mr%20Dorsey%20for%20charity. and other stuff has now been sold for ridiculous sums.
 Bitcoin as an investment - No FM2R
Actually that confuses me less. It's just a fashion to buy fashionable s***. There's not suggestion of any legitimacy or value about it.

Crypto currencies with their pretence to be more than a trendy and desired fashion statement are quite beyond me.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Terry
Value is (like beauty) in the eye of the beholder. Value means the capacity in economic terms to be capable of trade for other things of value.

There are countless things of no real use (so far as I can discern) which can be traded for things of value - eg: houses, cars, food, etc etc.

- old masters - an indistinguishable fake can be had for 1/100th of the price
- jewellery - shiny metal and glass
- bitcoins - digital blips

There is only one conclusion - some things feed the mind and emotions, not consumption.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos

Bought some bitcoin and Ethereum in January - I suspect we have, like EVs, passed the "early adopter" stage and are now entering the mainstream.

I don't see it failing but expect a bumpy yet inevitable upward journey.

Bitcoin's massive power requirement is of course the Achilles heel, hence I have a little more in Ethereum.

All money I can afford to lose of course.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Govts are is massive hawk. Interest rates will be kept down as govts can't afford them not to.

Even then they are printing money like mad.

A cash ISA at 1% is pretty much guaranteed to lose money over time.

The vast bulk of my savings (other than owned property) is shares or equity funds, and corporate bond funds.

I don't see how cash savings can outpace the independent cryptos for the next few years at least.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Duncan
Piece in The Telegraph Money section today about a woman who was scammed out of £60,000 via a bitcoin investment.

www.telegraph.co.uk/money/katie-investigates/lost-63000-falling-love-bitcoin-scammer/
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Must say am pleasantly surprised Lloyds refunded her £20k
 Bitcoin as an investment - Duncan
If I were a Lloyds investor, I might not have been pleased.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos

True, but similarly I have shares in Sainsbo's and they could have kept millions in business rate relief - that's a few quid of dividends I don't get due to "doing the right thing".

Good advertising in the press is money well spent perhaps...
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
2 weeks later BTC £42k, Ethereum £2.5k

Bubble or the inevitable result of large companies/funds buying in?

Probably both.
 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
ETH have near tripled since you bought in in Jan? But BTC is down.
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Both up - paid £23-£33k for bitcoin iirc, more like £900-£1000 for Ether.

Made a handful of small transactions - overall think paid £2200 and now worth ~£4200.

Not mindblowing gains but always an outside chance will further double or triple by year's end.

 Bitcoin as an investment - smokie
Well done - I wish I'd done the same...
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
My friend who bought bitcoin at £300 some years ago is now sitting on almost £4m (mostly in Ether now as he suspects it will prove more sustainable), having already bought a Tesla Model 3, his house and a couple of gites in France to let out (not a big Brexit fan finnily enough).
 Bitcoin as an investment - Lygonos
Said friend is moving to Portugal to take up domicile - no CGT on his profits there.
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