committees.parliament.uk/work/272/escooters/news/119723/legalise-escooters-says-transport-committee/
Strange the different approaches in different countries.
The UK is the last European country to allow privately owned scooters yet it suggests only "encouraging" helmet use. £100 fine here if you are not wearing both helmet and hi-vis jacket.
Using a scooter on a pavement will also get a similar fine.
So on the one hand the UK is strict in not [yet] permitting them, but on the other hand is seemingly planning to be quite relaxed about regulations when finally permitting them.
They should be allowed on roads and cycle paths and not on sidewalks.
Not wearing a helmet, not wearing a hi-vis and/or using them on a sidewalk should be penalised with fines.
Here we have troops of people employed by the councils. Very similar to traffic wardens except they can enforce all local regulations, which are all managed by fines. Of course here we do have ID cards and so the fine can be easily enforced and tied to you specifically. Given the UK population's fear and phobia and ID cards I guess that will remain a challenge for some time to come.
Insurance is not compulsory here, but it absolutely should be. As, in my opinion, it should be for bicycles.
I see the Transport Committee said licences should not be required. Well, I probably agree with that but permits should be. Something easy to get but which requires identification; the level of security of a blockbuster Membership Card would do.
Still loving mine, I probably do about 40/50km a week on it. Actually had to replace the rear tyre because it was bald, which I'm quite proud of.
As an aside, I dicked about with the firmware on mine, in particular relating to it's acceleration and top speed. Stock it's limited to 16mph / 25kph. It seemed to me that it might be more fun faster than that. So I didn't increase it much - 20mph /32 kph.
My learning from that was that 20mph on a perfectly smooth piece of straight tarmac is fine. Faster would be equally fine. But if you need to stop suddenly, hit a hole, a rock, or just a lump, or lose concentration it goes very wrong, very quickly and people can get hurt.
On balance 16mph is a very reasonable limit. I guess those with larger wheels may be safer at higher speeds, but it shouldn't be permitted. In reality variable speed limits is the way to go but without wardens and a method of identifying the riders, I don't really see that it can be controlled.
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I'm not sure the government is strict in not allowing them, more it's not seen as a priority. Perhaps indifference might be a better word.
I wonder how much pent up demand there is here once they are legal?
I've only seen two around here, no doubt because they aren't really legal. It'll be different in cities perhaps when they are made legal in some way or another.
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I guess it might just be me me but I find the sight of grown men on scooters and skateboards inherently ludicrous. For that reason I don’t see them catching on here. I may be wrong of course but the fear of looking silly in public is a big obstacle for the English to overcome.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 29 Nov 20 at 14:19
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I don't know whether or not I look ludicrous, or even a bit silly. I'm long past the point where impressing other people with how cool I look is a motivation for anything, if in fact I ever felt like that.
And I don't think most younger people give a crap. Have you looked at their fashions?
>>For that reason I don't see them catching on here.
Halfords, quoted by the BBC last week....
"In the days after the second lockdown was made public, Halfords said demand for escooters rose by 71%"
"In addition, we [Halfords] will be growing the number of e-bike and e-scooter servicers in our stores from 400 to over 1,800"
I guess not everybody shares the appearance obsession.
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We have these in Norwich. The take up to date has been pretty underwhelming.
www.edp24.co.uk/news/beryl-e-scooters-everything-you-need-to-know-1591042
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>> We have these in Norwich. The take up to date has been pretty underwhelming.
Perhaps if they painted them green, and put. John Deere logo on them?
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What is the take up rate vs what they expected?
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>>We have these in Norwich. The take up to date has been pretty underwhelming
I can't make out which scooters they are, so have no clue as to their performance. However, I think the rental model is quite different to the ownership model.
Taking Santiago as an illustration, though the thinking here is quite different to the UK.
It is a capital city. So it has got a whole lot of business, retail, accomodation, and social enterprises in a small space.
Largely it has not evolved as such. Though perhaps it has downtown. For the large part it has been built in modern times on purpose and so is a much more flexible environment for modern life.
People who buy scooters, like me, are making a lifestyle choice. I simply enjoy it, I like being different, and it suits my ridiculous drinking habits in a world where public transport has been destroyed by civil unrest, certainly later in the day, but that has the most terrifying of drink/driving consequences.
So I bought one.
However, the rental market is different. Thousands, I have no real idea how many, of rental scooters cover the city. Left everywhere. They are all individually montored and recovered / replaced depending on their battery life or need for maintenance.
In a country with totally predicatable and usually dry weather, in a city with wide sidewalks, wide roads and cycle paths everywhere, why wouldn't you?
Imagine a sunny day when you are by the Dominion in London and wish to be in China Town and there are not only cycle paths all the way there is a scooter within 3 metres of you.
It is a ridiculous level of convenience.
The UK can be characterised as being controlled by sensible, responsible adults who worry so much about consequences and what-ifs that they mostly do nothing. Whereas Chile could be characterised as being inhabited by irresponsible fun-loving idiots who pay no attention to consequences.
I believe in the UK model, but I rather enjoy the Chilean approach.
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though the thinking here is quite different to the UK.
I think that sums up how they are used in Chile will remain very different from the UK.
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"in a country with totally predicatable and usually dry weather, in a city with wide sidewalks, wide roads and cycle paths everywhere, why wouldn't you?"
Well of course the opposite is true here in Norwich. It rains a fair bit, pavements are narrow,as are the roads in the centre which were built to service a medieval city. Norwich is also, somehat surprisingly to many, quite hilly so its not ideally designed for scooters. Apart from that the City is quite compact.. I live a couple of miles form the centre and find walking is the best way to get around. There is also a perfectly adequate bus service in the City if you dont want to walk.
The scooters lie around in heaps unused and unloved. I rather expect they will go the way of the OVO bikes.
Perhaps they might be better suited to somewhere like Milton Keynes
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Yes I remember when I used to go to Norwich how hilly it is. Agreed on the narrow streets, although I wonder how other countries manage that have similar narrow streets in their cities?
There is a trial of them in MK.
Although when I had a bit of a search online a couple of the trial cities had been stopped due to people taking on main roads and driving them on pavements a lot.
I think CGN is right, I don't think they'll be the take up that there has been in other countries, apart from London and a couple of other cities possibly.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 29 Nov 20 at 18:31
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>> I think CGN is right, I don't think they'll be the take up that there
>> has been in other countries, apart from London and a couple of other cities possibly.
I think they *only* make sense in cities, or large towns.
That said, if they don't catch on I don't think it will be down to a fear of not looking good.
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>>
>>
>> Not wearing a helmet, not wearing a hi-vis............................... be penalised with fines.
>>
>>
NEVER.
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You disagree with it strongly or you think it will never happen?
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>> You disagree with it strongly or you think it will never happen?
>>
>>
Disagree strongly. I have my doubts about the benefits of hi vis and as for helmets, that s a personal choice. I cycled all my life up to earlier this year, including a lot of racing. I never wore a helmet (They were not compulsory when I stopped) and crashed more times than many people have even ridden a bike. Never had a head injury.
In any case, I firmly believe that the law should prevent me from doing something which puts other people at risk, but the risks (Or perceived risks) that I take with my own safety are my business and nobody elses.
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>>In any case, I firmly believe that the law should prevent me from doing something which puts other people at risk, but the risks (Or perceived risks) that I take with my own safety are my business and nobody elses.
Sort of agree.
I think wearing Hi-vis does make sense. Anything to try and help the Oompa Loompas spot you.
As for helmets then I think it's not so clear. For me, I'd rather wear one anyway, though probably wouldn't always. However, as the sort of compromise required to shut up the objectors, it's pretty trivial.
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...and I do not subscribe to the view that wearing a helmet makes anything worse.
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Moron in a helmet may well be more false sense of security - unconvinced they will save lives or pedestrian impacts.
Being able to stop, test, and cube the scooters of the chaps doing 30mph is more helpful.
eScooters have neither the stability or braking power of a bicycle and need their top speed limited.
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>>eScooters have neither the stability or braking power of a bicycle and need their top speed limited.
Strongly agree.
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Legal e-bikes are limited to 25kph and only add power to pedalling. If they are solely self-propelled or can exceed 25kph then they become motor vehicles if I understand it correctly.
No logic then to legalising a 25kph e-scooter, which is far less safe, at least to the user.
Disregarding the comparison, they are surely unsafe on many roads, and dangerous to others on pavements. There's not really any cycling infrastructure they might use. I fail to see how legalising them can be contemplated.
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>> In any case, I firmly believe that the law should prevent me from doing something
>> which puts other people at risk, but the risks (Or perceived risks) that I take
>> with my own safety are my business and nobody elses.
Other than the fact that they will take you to an ICU, there you may well be taking up space that someone else who took sensible precautions, yet still had an accident, could be deprived of that bed.
Or will you say "No, no, leave me here at the side of the road, it's all my own fault. I refused to wear a helmet"?
Hmm?
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>>
>>
>> Other than the fact that they will take you to an ICU, there you may
>> well be taking up space that someone else who took sensible precautions, yet still had
>> an accident, could be deprived of that bed.
>>
>> Or will you say "No, no, leave me here at the side of the road,
>> it's all my own fault. I refused to wear a helmet"?
>>
>> Hmm?
>>
You could apply that top so many things. Ask any doctor or nurse about how much of A&E time is taken with having to deal with drunks, up to 75% at weekends. Would you ban alcohol to help the NHS. Or how about mountaineers, rock climbers, rugby players, motor racing participants and all those who take part in dangerous leisure activities. Maybe they should all be stopped too.
As regards helmets, a far greater number of people receive head injuries in car accidents that ever do on two wheels, yet would I be right in saying that you would oppose compulsory helmet wearing when travelling by car?
Hmmm?
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>> a far greater number of people receive head injuries in car accidents that ever do on two wheels,
I think I don't believe that. Also, I think the important statistic is/was the difference between head injury frequency and severity to motorcyclists before and after the helmet law.
Still one could argue the same about many things, the seatbelt law for example.
In essence does society have a role in preventing us from putting ourselves at risk? I think to an extent it does though it is clearly a difficult line to draw. Especially when dealing with people unable to make such a decision themselves.
Even here where they mostly do not put much effort into protecting the populace, seatbelts, helmets on two wheels and similar are in place.
Though arguably those are in place to stop the whining of those who prefer to ban activities they do not wish to do themselves. And, of course, the media.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 29 Nov 20 at 19:07
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>> Or how about mountaineers, rock climbers, rugby players, motor racing participants and all >> those who take part in dangerous leisure
>> activities. Maybe they should all be stopped too.
You missed out horse riding. Far more dangerous than the sports mentioned above.
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>> As regards helmets, a far greater number of people receive head injuries in car accidents
>> that ever do on two wheels,
They most certainly do not. Where on earth did you dream that old pony up from?
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No idea on numbers overall but most of the patients I have seen with life-changing head injuries were pedestrians hit by cars.
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100% agree...
Most of the patients in our trauma theatre are pedestrians or motorbike riders tied with sports injuries (obviously neck of femur is number one).
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>> No idea on numbers overall but most of the patients I have seen with life-changing
>> head injuries were pedestrians hit by cars.
Based on my time working with the Court of Protection I'd say exactly the same. Amongst that group contributory negligence as a result of alcohol was a significant factor.
There were car accidents too, typically car v HGV. Passenger wife having sued driver husband was a theme there.
Falls from height, or things falling from height, at work covered quite a few cases.
I can only recall one cyclist and he overlapped the drunk pedestrian cohort.
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Help from someone with good maths please.
I've just changed the tyres on my scooter from 8.5" to 10". If all else remains equal, what would that do to the speedo reading? It would read low, but by any relevant amount?
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Really?
I thought you old guys did tougher exams than us youngsters.
~18% bigger wheel = speedo reading 85% true (8.5/10)
(Assuming the speedo isn't taken from your phone GPS in which case it'll be the same obvs)
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 15 Dec 20 at 21:12
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>>
>> (Assuming the speedo isn't taken from your phone GPS in which case it'll be the
>> same obvs)
>>
...he'd be nearer the satellite(s), though, which might change things a bit..... ;-)
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>>I thought you old guys did tougher exams than us youngsters.
Nah, we did, but these days we use minons to do menial tasks.
>>~18% bigger wheel = speedo reading 85% true (8.5/10)
So thanks.
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>> I've just changed the tyres on my scooter from 8.5" to 10".
I presume you mean wheels and tyres, as I doubt a 10" dia tyres would fit a 8.5" wheel very well.
Whilst it may increase your top speed (if the motor's enough torque), it may cause slower hill climbing/burn out the motor.
Out of interest, why?
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>>Maths
So there is a ring of titanium around the equator at 100 meters above the highest landmass.
Due unforeseen circumstances the ring has to be raised by 1 extra meter.
How much longer will the ring be once it has been raised by 1 meter?
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Raised above the equator? Same size.
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>> Raised above the equator? Same size.
>>
Take it that the whole ring is 1m higher, all the way around the world and the equator has a circumference equivalent to 40,000km
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>> So there is a ring of titanium around the equator at 100 meters above the
>> highest landmass.
>>
>> Due unforeseen circumstances the ring has to be raised by 1 extra meter.
>>
>> How much longer will the ring be once it has been raised by 1 meter?
The short answer is that it is pi x D (I can't do a pi symbol) plus 202m.
We can take D as 12,742K, or 12,742,000m. We need to add 202m, plus the bit for the highest land mass. What mountains are there on the equator that we need to allow for?
Chimborazo in Ecuador at 6,263.47m is the highest mountain on the equator.
About 22 metres longer is the answer.
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>> I've just changed the tyres on my scooter from 8.5" to 10".
>
>I presume you mean wheels and tyres, as I doubt a 10" dia tyres would fit a 8.5" wheel very
>well.
No, I meant tyres.
It had 8.5" tyres and now it has 10" tyres on the same wheel. The 10" refers to it's outer diameter, not the size of hub that it fits. Essentially it is a matter of changing it from a wheel with a low profile tyre to a wheel with a more sensible and much higher profile tyre.
>Out of interest, why?
Mostly for the obvious reason that you would expect, ride comfort, which is very noticeably different. But also a couple of other reasons.
With a 8.5" tyre there is very little air and thus cushioning. Consequently it is very easy for the inner tube to be pinched, and thus punctured, if one hits or runs over an object.
The lack of air also means that anti-puncture sealants don't work. The very small amount of air is gone before the gunk can seal a hole.
And also because the 8.5" tyre is so low profile, and so thin, that it is a b***** nightmare to put on and take off. Really really hard to the point where roadside puncture repairs are pretty much impossible.
With a tyre which will puncture much less often, and that I can change with my hands and no tools when it does puncture, and better ride comfort on top, then it's a no-brainer.
Though the scooter needed "adjusting" to get the clearance the much larger tyre needs.
Changes to it's speed / acceleration are actually an irritation more than an advantage.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 16 Dec 20 at 01:53
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I would've thought it was nigh on impossible to lever off a low profile, 8.5" tyre. Bubble cars and scooters had 8" wheels, but also split rims.
What's the final drive? If chain, you could fit a larger rear sprocket to maintain the original gearing.
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>>I would've thought it was nigh on impossible to lever off a low profile, 8.5" tyre
Damn b***** close to impossible. It certainly cannot be done roadside. It's horrendous.
Whereas I put the 10" ones on with my hands alone.
>>What's the final drive?
The electric motors are in the hubs so I guess it is what it is.
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it is direct drive. probably
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>> >>I would've thought it was nigh on impossible to lever off a low profile, 8.5"
>> tyre
>>
>> Damn b***** close to impossible. It certainly cannot be done roadside. It's horrendous.
Getting tyres onto a 16" Brompton wheel is pretty difficult with just fingers. Schwalbe Marathon tyres particularly; you end up chasing the bead round the rim as pushing it in at one point causes it to pop out further round.
I keep a length of webbing belt in my pannier to lock the potentially out going bead from moving.
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What tyres did you put on? I'm sure you would of received plenty recommendations here, but you didn't ask.
You should of put Cross Climates on if the weather is Chile.
Last edited by: Kevin on Wed 16 Dec 20 at 13:44
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That's just cruel. Twice in one post. And a lousy pun.
tinyurl.com/ycg4yudc
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...Michilen Cross-Climates...?
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tinyurl.com/y8uttbdw
What's the drink-driving laws in Chile?
Wonder if he's intending to smuggle one in the back of the Explorer?
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I missed this, sorry...
>> tinyurl.com/y8uttbdw
>>
>> What's the drink-driving laws in Chile?
Zero tolerance on any vehicle including bicycles and scooters.
>> Wonder if he's intending to smuggle one in the back of the Explorer?
Had thought about it.
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In Chile insurance companies are now offering insurance.
I don't know the details but it covers total loss, theft, personal accident, and TP liability.
Purportedly £8 per month.
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A lot of glossy advertising and big investment for a product that is still illegal to use apart from private land!
Maybe they are hoping that if enough people use them then the Govt will cave-in and allow them on the road.
All I can say is that we are now seeing a jump in people in theatre with fractured femurs who were riding e-scooters and in a collision, interestingly this coincides with a drop in motorbike activity and cycles (although we have seen quite a few fractured clavicles rather than long bones fractures).
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>>Maybe they are hoping that if enough people use them then the Govt will cave-in and allow them on the road.
The Government (actually various bits of the civil service and the police) don't like the lack of legislation on a pedal cycle and like less the legislation on elect assisted cycles so I really cannot see them let escooters through the door.
In the media the problem comes from all the people who don't want to do it so believe that nobody should be allowed to. But the real problem is insurance.
If it is a rental you can make the rental company carry liability insurance. You cannot do the same to a scooter unless you make it a road vehicle and then you walk into construction and use regulation.
However, escooters get updates, not dissimilar to what happens with cell phones. And the latest updates have been restricting the scooters, even ones already sold and on the market. They've removed cruise control (which was a dumb idea anyway) they've dropped the top speed to 15mph, and they're trying to lock the scooters so that they cannot be hacked.
And they've started developing geographical differences in their performance. All of which is aimed at making scooters more acceptable to officialdom.
At 15mph they really are not much different in capability to a bicycle. Other than the fact that no physical fitness is required. They're silent, but so are bikes pretty much, they accelerate about the same as a bike and are, if anything, lighter.
If they can restrict the speed then a lot of the trouble ought to go away. The UK is not the only one, BTW. They are certainly still illegal in the Netherlands, for example.
But some of them are insane and 100% should not be allowed anywhere near a road. Look at this for example.
domiservi.cl/dokma/productos/dhs3200w/
90kmh FFS. (55mph). Insane. I was speaking to a guy riding one the other day. He was wearing a full face helmet and body armour (like the dirt bike competitors wear). He was saying that it was fantastic but so dangerous. The scooter is far too fast. He offered me a go and I took it down the road and back at a max of 20mph. It scared the crap out of me.
If I was in charge, as of course I should be, I would take all private cars and heavy transport off the roads of Santiago and make it entirely two wheel and public transport friendly and freely allow speed restricted scooters.
However, more than anything, along the lines of what Haywain said, this is more fun than when I was a kid and discovered home made wooden go-karts with pram wheels.
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>> GT Slider, anyone?
>>
>> artisanscooters.com/
>>
I'd love to try one.
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"I'd love to try one."
So would I - I've been waiting for something like this since I was a kid.
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Makes me feel like a kid when I ride it. Just so much fun. I absolutely love it.
Mine now has a top speed of 34kmh / 21mph and that is plenty fast enough for me.
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>> Makes me feel like a kid when I ride it. Just so much fun. I
>> absolutely love it.
>>
>> Mine now has a top speed of 34kmh / 21mph and that is plenty fast
>> enough for me.
>>
Mark, is your one a push along type scooter with a motor (Which I assumed it was) or do you have a traditional Vespa type scooter?
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www.mi.com/global/mi-electric-scooter-Pro2/
Except I changed the wheels to 10", edited the Firmware to give 35kph, switched off the automatic KERS and upgraded the rear disc brake.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 17 Jan 21 at 13:03
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Oh, and mine is the Pro 1.
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As for riding it;
The scooter must be moving at 3kph (configurable) or the electric motor won't kick in.
It has one brake lever. As you start to pull the lever the electronic KERS brake on the front wheel kicks in. I have mine set to low since at medium and certainly high it feels like the front wheel hit a wall. As you pull the lever further then the disc brake joins in.
You can lock the back wheel easily and the front brakes hard. But given the amount of rubber you have on the road, which isn't much, then they don't stop that quickly.
If it hits a hole, a lump or similar then it stops. That and the braking keep you looking ahead and concentrating. If you hit a pot hole then you're done.
It is very difficult to look behind since with such small wheels the balance is very sensitive. Indicating with your hands also has to be done with care and on the wrong surface it can be a choice between indicating or keeping your front teeth.
With the usual 8.5" tyres they are horrendously subject to punctures because there is so little cushioning air. With 10" wheels that problem goes away. (touch wood, so far).
It's not sensible to ride them if drunk (also illegal), you will get hurt. Though I do often ride the scooter when I would be over the limit for a car. But you need to be alert and capable.
They're crap in the rain. They're not waterproof, parts of its electrics are very vulnerable to water and it has stuff all grip. Fortunately not a problem here.
I keep the lights on all the time and strobeing. Otherwise NOBODY sees you.
However, honestly this is just the most fun you can imagine.
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Well, the most fun you could have standing on one leg I suppose...
;-)
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>> Well, the most fun you could have standing on one leg I suppose...
tinyurl.com/yy3wycyz
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>> >> Well, the most fun you could have standing on one leg I suppose...
>>
>> tinyurl.com/yy3wycyz
My, your tits have become quite perky mark.
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My hair seems to have grown also.
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>> My, your tits have become quite perky mark.
Jeez, and I resolutely avoided linking to 'reverse cowgirl'......
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>> >>
>>
>> Jeez, and I resolutely avoided linking to 'reverse cowgirl'......
>>
Just don't type "Felching" into your search engine whatever you do.
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Good lord that deteriorated a long way very quickly.
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Humph's fault. He started it, sir.
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I wouldn't risk starting any of that. Not with my back...
;-)
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Yes, but it's been very educational ...
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>> Looks a bit tame. How about this?
>>
>> newatlas.com/outdoors/ezraider-4-wheel-scooter/
Now yer whistlin' Dixie !
;-)
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...."which junction for Santiago, mate?"........
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Don't be silly, I'd have been on the other side of the road.
We had one in the 'fast' lane of the Américo Vespucio ring road in Santiago a couple of days ago. It's got a 65mph speed limit which everybody breaks and 75mph is more common. The road is three lanes extremely busy, heavy trucks can also use the fast lane and Chilean drivers are, by and large, idiots.
I swear I don't understand how these people stay alive.
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>> I swear I don't understand how these people stay alive.
Probably taught to drive in India.
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It is difficult to find any reason why someone sane would take a 25kph scooter out onto a three lane highway with heavy traffic, many, many trucks and all moving at 110kph at least.
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Its very difficult but they are out there.
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Here's a scooter rider trying to get his confiscated electric scooter back
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4He-YThnWtc&t=1042s
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What a dick. I'd genuinely love to see them try that sovereign citizen s*** here.
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>> Here's a scooter rider trying to get his confiscated electric scooter back
>>
>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=4He-YThnWtc&t=1042s
>>
That chap certainly has a lot of interaction with the police.
Its not zippy's yt channel is it?
Last edited by: sooty123 on Wed 20 Jan 21 at 17:00
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TBF he is clearly mentally and socially handicapped. I'm on the spectrum somewhere, but he is out of sight.
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I'm looking at you in a whole new light now I know that you married into greatness.
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>> I'm looking at you in a whole new light now I know that you married
>> into greatness.
I married into the spectrum, not a natural denizen like you.
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I admire that you aspired.
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You remember that on the Severn Bridge you used to have to pay a toll to go to Wales whereas to go to England it was free?
Similar logic.
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>> Similar logic.
Wot? fleece them rich Londoners at the other end of the M4? All it did was make em turn right and go to Cornwall (where they were fleeced by the Celtic Cornovi)
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You've got your left & rights muddled.
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Well, I *suppose* it's a good idea.....
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lB1K_ylig0
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Just been offered this scooter....
Electric scooter Dokma DHS
- 2 x 2800w motors one for each wheel
- Maximum speed of 90kmh
- Maximum range of up to 70km
- Carries up to 200 kilos
And there follows a whole bunch of stuff that doesn't matter. I'm 'only' 85kgs, so I guess it'd have no problem reaching 90kmh with me on it, though I'd bottle out long before that.
FFS, 90 kmh?? (56mph). I love my 35kph scooter, though at times think that's a bit fast. But 90kmh is insane. There is no way that can be safe for the rider, never mind those around him.
Of course there are legal limits on them here, but like everything else, never enforced.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 24 Feb 21 at 18:58
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E-Scooters again... - sooty123
