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Important enough for it's own thread, I think.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54873105
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 17 Dec 20 at 13:33
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'However there are logistical challenges, as the vaccine has to be kept in ultra-cold storage at below minus 80C.'
I'm not sure how many storage and transport facilities are able to keep that cold and effectively distribute it?
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They could get my wife to give it a nasty stare, that'd take it well below -80.
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No real technical difficulty - liquid nitrogen in -196°C and cheaper than milk.
When I heard about this a month or two back my understanding is it can be fridged for a few days after being removed from cryo storage.
Probably means vaccines would be based in hubs rather than GP surgeries.
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I know it's technically possible, I was thinking about how many storage and transport facilities there are. Have the storage units been designed, built and tested? That sort of thing interests me.
I think that's important how long can it safely be outside - 80c?
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No doubt Trump will claim this news suppressed by the Deep State until after election.
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>> No doubt Trump will claim this news suppressed by the Deep State until after election.
He's posted it on his twitter page as one of his achievements.
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I understand Pfizer are considering mixing Viagra in with some of the doses, giving some both a reason and the means to celebrate....
;-)
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>> >> No doubt Trump will claim this news suppressed by the Deep State until after
>> election.
>>
>> He's posted it on his twitter page as one of his achievements.
>>
I guess he also takes credit for the dramatic rise in share prices today.
Still I understand his philosophy is "you win some, you lose some" so I suspect he's just chilling our today. He's been very quiet. He must be looking looking forward to going to the Biden's big bash I expect
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>> I guess he also takes credit for the dramatic rise in share prices today.
You are physic. His tweet was
quote
Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
STOCK MARKET UP BIG, VACCINE COMING SOON. REPORT 90% EFFECTIVE. SUCH GREAT NEWS!
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 10 Nov 20 at 11:54
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>> >> No doubt Trump will claim this news suppressed by the Deep State until after
>> election.
>>
>> He's posted it on his twitter page as one of his achievements.
>>
Did he include details like
Coronavirus Cases:10,302,180 and Deaths: 243,819
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
We will miss gems like
US Election Result 2020: "We are up BIG, but they are trying to STEAL the Election. We will never let them do it. Votes cannot be cast after the Poles are closed!"
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Latest Tweet
The
@US_FDA
and the Democrats didn’t want to have me get a Vaccine WIN, prior to the election, so instead it came out five days later – As I’ve said all along!
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Just thought I’d write and give an insight as to what we have been told at our Trust regarding the vaccine.
Currently we have peer to peer vaccinations going on for the flu and the same staff were briefed last week regarding how they will also take on the job of staff cv-19 jabs.
Interestingly the info we have been given seems to differ quite a lot from what I’m hearing in the press over the past few days.
The aim is to have all Trust staff vaccinated by the end of December!
Two injections are required but our info only puts them three weeks apart (not the two months as I’ve heard reported), it might seem obvious but the same brand of vaccine has to be given for the second jab.
After each injection the member of staff will be required to lay flat for at least fifteen minutes in case of any adverse reactions.
All staff by the end of December seems a bit ambitious unless they know something we don’t regarding the vaccine’s current availability, plus many of my colleagues have already said that they won’t have it until it’s been tested properly, apparently the main reason you have to lay flat is because it will still an unlicensed product which doesn’t fill many with much confidence (also effectively taking a multiple members of staff out of the workplace for fifteen minutes each time isn’t going to work out well).
Anyhow, as soon as things start I’ll give you all an update…
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Well, this is similar to what my local surgery is saying. I've posted it below. As you can see if you plough through it, they are not exactly enthusiastic about it. Not at all.
__
Headlines last week spoke of “Covid vaccine by Xmas from GPs”. What does this mean for me?
Whilst we certainly would want to be involved in any vaccination campaign, we don’t have any information ourselves yet and contrary to media reports no ‘deals’ have yet been done, but we expect more information soon
But isn’t it just like a flu jab?
No, not by a long stretch.
Flu jabs are delivered in their own little syringes, and kept refrigerated. They can safely last in a vaccine fridge for several months. We can keep them and use them, either in dedicated flu clinics or opportunistically if we see you for something else. We can run the clinics a bit like a conveyor belt, as I’m sure many of you will have experienced. We can get a large number of people vaccinated in a very short period of time. People then leave the practice immediately. Once a year, job done.
So what’s different about a new Covid vaccine compared with the flu jab?
These new vaccines are not yet ready, and we don’t know when they will be. They are completely different. They need to be stored frozen in special dry ice, colder than a home freezer (about -70°C). Surgeries don’t have those freezers. So they will be delivered whilst they are defrosting for use. However they can inky be stored in a vaccine fridge for a few days before expiring. They don’t come in their own little syringes. We will have to carefully draw them up from a main vial, dilute and mix them for each individual which will probably take from start to finish about 20 minutes, needing two members of staff (one to draw up, one to check - this is established safe practise with these preparations to minimise error). Once the patient has received their Covid-jab they must wait for 15 minutes to ensure no serious reaction -these vaccines are brand new, and whilst there is a huge regulatory framework to ensure their safety, we will have to take extra care. This in itself will be difficult as we have to maintain social distancing and we don’t know how quickly these clinics will take place. It will be nowhere near as quick as a flu clinic.
Will this be at my local GP surgery?
To begin with, NHS England thinks that areas will have one central Covid-jab centre. This might be in a local practice. It might be yours, it might not. You may have to travel. How the chosen centre will continue to look after its patients ongoing and urgent health needs, we don’t yet know. No details of those plans have been shared yet.
Is it just one jab?
No. You will need two. They will be 3-4 weeks apart but you must not have had any other vaccinations in the previous week.
How many patients will get it the vaccine when it’s ready?
Government says it wants 40 million people vaccinated (that’s 80 million appointments). Putting that into context, every year there are 40 million A&E attendances and 360 million GP appointments. This is going to take a long time. There are no spare GPs or practice nurses. We don’t yet know how we are going to plan for this on top of what we are doing now - managing hundreds of acute and chronic patients every day: on the phone, over video and being brought into the surgery by invitation.
Will it be available by Christmas?
No one knows. But if it is, there will be a very small number of doses and we think the Government might suggest protecting Care Home residents first.
Whatever you read in the paper or online, don’t forget - this is going to be very difficult. We need to make sure there is a safe system and a safe vaccine first.
Even when it comes, it won’t prevent Covid, it will only make its effects milder. So please bear with us - we are in the dark too.
And there is still every reason to think ‘Hands, Space, Safe’ for a long time to come.
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Sounds like your surgery management are defeated before they have even begun. What a negative defeatist reaction to such a positive development. Your outfit seems even more dismally more inefficient than mine.
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The emphasis must be put on how to get it done, not why it is so difficult. This is not an economic argument (although it will help massively), but simply about healthcare resources and fatalities.
Far better to spend a relatively small amount of resource (money and time) to vaccinate, than a much larger amount treating those who get infected, and who even after hospital and ICU may ultimately die. This is particularly true for the vulnerable and elderly who seem to be the priority group.
I do not believe it is an impossibility - if Nightingales can be built in a few weeks, testing ramped up 50 fold in six months, vaccines developed in less than 20% of notrmal times - this is really just a moderate challenge to get control of the virus.
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Chile has a superb vaccination infrastructure though obviously it is a much smaller population - just under 20 million.
They complete the flu vaccination every year in a couple of weeks, and most people get it, including children.
Injecting their population twice will be a totally manageable challenge. If the vaccination is available then everybody will get it in short order, I have no doubt.
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All done at a GP type centre or one off centres set up?
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 12 Feb 21 at 10:52
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>>All done at a GP type centre or one off centres set up?
Schools, local small health centres, pop-up centres, and mobile.
You can get it done at hospitals on demand, but then you have to pay more so most people don't.
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Your GP actually put that out? I guess some people are scared by anything new and don't want to change.
Probably best if the government don't involve people with that sort of attitude, take out of their hands and put into mass vaccination centres.
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I have to say on all other fronts they are pretty good, except that like everywhere else they now do that slightly intrusive triage thing when you call, and over the past year it's gone from "appointment? Sure, come down this afternoon" to "well, we're booking for three weeks away".
But once you're in their clutches they are really nice and responsive, everyone is smiley and cheerful, and they always take time to listen and deal with you properly. They are a real village asset as a rule.
I happened to be there last week, and in conversation they said they had ten thousand people on the books. Given there are only about four thousand in the village, the next two villages have their own separate surgeries and then it's Cambridge, I'm not sure why so many. But I do know they have four doctors and sixteen support staff, so ten thousand seems like a lot of people for them to deal with to me.
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>> Given there are only about four thousand in the village,
>> the next two villages have their own separate surgeries and then it's Cambridge, I'm not
>> sure why so many.
>>
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...because that defines the practice income... ;-)
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>> ...because that defines the practice income... ;-)
Yes, I meant where are they all coming from?
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>> we don’t have any information ourselves
That should have started and finished with that.
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You might already know this but you can't have the flu jab and cv-19 jab at the same time, in fact there must be at least a month between the two.
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Mrs Z, who's RCN registration had been reinstated at the start of the pandemic, has been contacted by NHS England to work on the vaccination drive.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 20 Nov 20 at 16:08
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It's really curious that the half dose at first gives better results than a full dose.
That will have the scientists scratching their heads for a while. But the good news means that there is more to go around...
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I see that Quantas are saying that they will be asking for proof of vaccination from passengers when it is available. I expect this will also actually be required by most other airlines and countries so there will be a need for some sort of certification of vaccination.
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>> I see that Quantas are saying that they will be asking for proof of vaccination
Isn't this also required for your children to go to public schools in Oz?
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I wonder how long until there's a market in fake certificates?
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In Chile we already have rules about vaccination and attending school, from long before the apocalypse.
And, as you clearly will not be surprised to hear, there is absolutely a trade in fake certificates.
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No it doesn't surprise me, clearly an export opportunity for the forward thinking type of person.
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It's actually a bit strange. Vaccinations for everything are freely available and depending on your age are either free or cheap. Most schools will vaccinate children for free, and those that do not charge far less than you will pay for a forged certificate..
So, if you are in the market for a vaccination certificate for your child to join a school, you are either an anti-vaxxer or simply cannot be bothered to get off your a***.
I don't know which annoys me more, but neither make sense.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Mon 23 Nov 20 at 22:58
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Oi!
I am anti vax and I don’t care what you think...
I am sick and tired of seeing people that are anti vax getting slandered on forums.
We have good reason to feel this way and simply attacking us or bad mouthing us is not going to change our minds. We will not be silenced.
I for sure will never have another one again. No chance, I don’t care what you say to try and convince me, I’ve fallen for that trap too many times before!!
There are much better brands of vacuum cleaners out there..!
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I wouldn't have the vaccine - under any circumstances. I don't think the ole woman would have it either, but she's her own man, knowlmean.
I've never had the flu vaccine either. Four of my family members have contracted Covid-19. One of whom was my 88 year-old sister -she's still drawing breath.
My sister's daughter's daughter (grand-niece?) got Covid and although her partner tested positive for the virus, he didn't have any symptoms, which I find interesting.
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>> I wouldn't have the vaccine - under any circumstances.
By protecting yourself you also protect others.
>> virus, he didn't have any symptoms, which I find interesting.
Fairly common to show no symptoms. You may still pass it on though.
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Surely vaccination is one of the great triumphs of science and medecine. Fortunately our generation has not seen our children die of diptheria, or crippled by polio. We have not seen terrible epidemics of smallpox or men dying a long and lingering death and their families impoverished by TB. We no longer see birth defects from Rubella or children suffering and sometimes dying of measles.
And this is and the near elimination of so many diseases is due to vaccination.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 24 Nov 20 at 09:11
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>> Surely vaccination is one of the great triumphs of science and medecine.
Not at all. Its a Bill Gates plot to insert microchips into our bodies to turn us into mask wearing* slaves of the pedophile lizard tongued deep state
*which we all know is the vital first step to strip us of our individuality and identity.
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Not bad but you should really have worked Soros in to it, oh and you should call them face nappies for the full on rant.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 24 Nov 20 at 11:22
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>> Not bad but you should really have worked Soros in to it,
>>
Soz.
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>> *which we all know is the vital first step to strip us of our individuality
>> and identity.
>>
...that's long gone (my views are my wife's)
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>>By protecting yourself you also protect others.
I do wear a face nappy - where I have to.
>>Fairly common to show no symptoms. You may still pass it on though.
Which is why he isolated for the required time.
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>> >> I wouldn't have the vaccine - under any circumstances.
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>> By protecting yourself you also protect others.
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>> >> virus, he didn't have any symptoms, which I find interesting.
>>
>> Fairly common to show no symptoms. You may still pass it on though.
>>
I think the days of having an intelligent, even a sensible debate, are gone, sadly.
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>>I wouldn't have the vaccine - under any circumstances.
No interest in doing what is right for others, no understanding of the science involved and proud of the dogma with a love of using variations of the phrase "nothing wrong with smoking, my relative smoked 1,000 Players a day and she lived until 100" as justification.
I have no doubt that you are typical of the type of person taking that stance. Fortunately the problem will resolve itself. Unfortunately not necessarily quickly enough.
I have never understood the pride that some take in ignorance. A natural defence, I suppose.
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I have a suspicion that someone may have worked out the possibility for fake certificates and there will be a means to check them online.
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Of course an Identity Card and database to which you could attach the information would be a step to far in some circles.
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Tradewinds Travel announces it it will not be using Qantas while the airline enforces a 'no vaccine - no travel' policy.
Well, of course, that is a two way street. I can choose not to use Tradewinds Travel, while it has that policy.
tinyurl.com/yystt5p3
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Can't say I've heard of them, were you planning on using Tradewinds?
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 24 Nov 20 at 06:55
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>> Can't say I've heard of them, were you planning on using Tradewinds?
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No.
I am planning on not using them.
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Did you plan to not use them before they announced their planned action?
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>> Did you plan to not use them before they announced their planned action?
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Yes, but in the same way that I am planning on not using any travel agents in the short/medium term. It's just that I especially won't use them.
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>> I am planning on not using them.
So you weren't going to use them before anyway. Good stuff.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 24 Nov 20 at 11:23
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>> I expect this will also actually be required by
>> most other airlines and countries so there will be a need for some sort of
>> certification of vaccination.
There used to be some sort of system for this. Around 1973 there was a panic around smallpox and we had to have vaccination certificates for a holiday in France.
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There still is a system for International vaccination Certificates apparently
practio.co.uk/travel-health/articles/vaccination-certificate
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>> There still is a system for International vaccination Certificates apparently
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>> practio.co.uk/travel-health/articles/vaccination-certificate
>>
I've still got my yellow fever one, hardly anyone uses them though. I can't remember having to actually use it.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 24 Nov 20 at 09:27
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>> I've still got my yellow fever one, hardly anyone uses them though.
>> I can't remember having to actually use it.
>>
I have one too.
I recall the fear of Polio.
I had Measles, Chicken pox and Whooping cough a a kid.
My daughter had Mumps and suffered. I had concerns I might catch it:-(
How things have improved!!!!
SWMBO developed a rash and our GP said " It is not Rubella but have 10 days sick leave. If you go to the office all the pregnant staff members will panic" Best sick leave ever :-)
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>>SWMBO developed a rash and our GP said " It is not Rubella but have 10 days sick leave. If >>you go to the office all the pregnant staff members will panic" Best sick leave ever :-)
I've been diagnosed as having Rubella three times. SWMBO was a teacher, but never got it, I'm sure she was a carrier. I worked in an environment with lots of women, so was signed off each time. It didn't make me feel particularly unwell, so on one occasion I got on with painting the outside of the house. Boss turned up to check on my welfare and wasn't too happy finding me up a ladder.
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>> There used to be some sort of system for this. Around 1973 there was a
>> panic around smallpox and we had to have vaccination certificates for a holiday in France.
>>
The 1978 Birmingham case? The local Medical Officer of Health and a nurse turned up at our house one evening in 1962 to vaccinate us against smallpox because my younger brother had been taken regularly for treatment at Bradford Royal Infirmary where there had been smallpox patients. Proper injections with those big scary glass syringes!
I keep seeing the comment, even from apparently intelligent commentators, that accepting vaccination is or must be an individual decision. Without further qualification, this misses the point that diseases are a threat to society as a whole and vaccination in general as a means of protecting everybody depends on enough people participating.
Measles vaccine is a good example. It can't be given to young babies, and I think is now normally given as part of MMR from 12 months. My daughter caught measles at 6 months, fortunately recovering without permanent harm as far as we know, as a result of an outbreak that need not have happened had participation been higher.
Throughout the history of vaccines, when a disease has been successfully suppressed uptake has declined despite attempts by public health bodies to maintain widespread immunity. The result is a resurgence of disease.
I hope the history of smallpox and how it was eradicated is on the national curriculum.
Compulsion is another question, but if we are to accept that compulsion is off the agenda then in my opinion limitations on the movement on those who won't play the game should be on it.
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>> Compulsion is another question, but if we are to accept that compulsion is off the
>> agenda then in my opinion limitations on the movement on those who won't play the
>> game should be on it.
>>
I'm not sure how that would be managed in this country. 'Papers please' scenario might not go down too well. That's assuming that such a system could be brought about.
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>> The 1978 Birmingham case?
No, this was 1973. My recollection was that somebody had arrived in the country and subsequently developed the disease but googling suggests that, like the 1978 episode, it was a laboratory problem.
api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/written-answers/1973/apr/12/smallpox
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Vaccines have two purposes - to protect the individual vaccinated, and protect others in the community from infection.
If individuals decide they do not want or need the protection afforded by a vaccine, their views sould be respected although I think them foolish.
Personal circumstance makes a difference to the risk assessment - age 20 the probability of serious outcomes from infection are low, if 70 with other health issues the risks are much, much greater.
The impact on the community is another issue. The reproduction rate for measles is estimated at 12-18. This means that a very high level of immunisation (~95%)is required to stop measles spreading amongst those who are not vaccinated.
Covid has a "natural" reproduction rate in the UK of ~3 (each person infects 3 others). On average this means that if 66.7% of people are vaccinated the effective R = 1.
But not all environments are the same - contrast a builder working mostly outdoors with a nurse or an estate agent both of whom work mostly inside and mix extensively with others.
So it is entirely reasonable that vaccination certificates are required for some jobs - no vaccination = no job!
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>So it is entirely reasonable that vaccination certificates are required for some jobs - no vaccination = no job!
If they take the same approach with vaccination as they do with tests, then in Chile it is likely to be a great deal more restrictive than that. I hope.
I think we should make wilful anti-vaxxers identifiable. Perhaps we could tattoo "t***" on their forehead. Then we would know where they are and could avoid them. I suspect that they would be quickly forced into only socialising with each other.
Not including those who are unable to take the vaccination, of course - they are to be helped and not put further at risk by the anti-vaxxers..
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The danger of categorising those who don’t want to be vaccinated now as ‘anti-vaxxers’ is that you lump together those who are against vaccination on principle and those who are in favour of vaccination but who don’t want to be early adopters of which ever vaccines the NHS chooses to use. I’d count myself in the latter category, but I’m not an anti-vaxxer.
There are, as I understand it currently six potential vaccines that the U.K. has ordered, with varying levels of efficacy and limited understanding of the side effects. That’s one of the reasons why the manufacturers have excluded all liability from future health claims as part of their supply agreements. And I have no confidence in government, any government, providing support if it’s needed. Against that, at the moment I have a 99% (PHE) chance of not catching it, and a 99.5% (ONS) of not dying if I do catch it. So while I fully understand the need from a community protection perspective hopefully you’ll excuse me if I’m not at the front of the queue. If the numbers change then obviously I’ll reassess. But for now I’ll wait a while to see which vaccine has the best results. And even then we won’t be clear on the side effects!
It’s probably academic as I won’t be anywhere near the priority list to be vaccinated for a while, and if it’s necessary to prove vaccination for travel, well, I’m sure I can delay travelling to those locations or reassess my position at that point. My educated guess is that in 12 months we’ll be much cleared about which vaccines are most effective, and indeed may well have developed some better ones, so 2022 works for me :)
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>>The danger of categorising those who don’t want to be vaccinated now as ‘anti-vaxxers...
Indeed. But the statement I was discussing was "I wouldn't have the vaccine - under any circumstances.", Now admittedly that didn't come from one of the brighter members, but still that is hardly a considered or educated or even cautious approach of the type you describe.
That's just ignorance.
As an aside, I wonder about having more than one vaccine. Is it more protection, wasted effort or potentially a bad idea.
As an old bloke with chronic asthma I'd guess I'd be further up the queue, and I'll certainly want to take the vaccine, though if the first offering is the Russian one I might give that a miss.
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Do you know if Chile has bought a vaccine already?
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They are already running a J&J trial, are about to start an Astra-Zeneca trial and the Chinese Sinovac trial. All of those come with guaranteed supplies if successful.
Thus Chile announced that it had reserved 10 million doses of the Pfizer Vaccine, 14.4 million doses of the Astra-Zeneca Vaccine and 20 million doses of the Sinovac vaccine.
In addition Chile is a part of COVAX and has signed up for 35 million doses - almost enough for the whole country. (Pop 19.4m).
There's obviously some overlap in those figures, but the number was large enough for me not to bother looking into it further until the comparative value/safety of each vaccine is known.
Chile has a great vaccination infrastructure and approach so I am unstressed.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 24 Nov 20 at 13:34
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The biggest issue facing a mass vaccination program is not the confirmed anti vaxxers but simply those who can’t be bothered to make an appointment for a vaccination or won’t turn up for their appointment. You only have to look at the number of wasted appointments at your GP or dentist to see the size of the problem. Add in those who are scared of needles and you get a very significant proportion of the population.
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>>simply those who can't be bothered to make an appointment for a vaccination or won't turn up for their appointment.
I don't understand those people.
>> Add in those who are scared of needles
They scare the crap out of me. Genuinely. I get the sweats and a racing heart and shaky hands etc. etc. But FFS, the needle is almost always preferable to the alternative of not having the drug.
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>>As an old bloke with chronic asthma
Without wanting to be a scary Mary or do quackery over t'internet I assume you don't have COPD*.
COPD has much worse Covid outcomes than plain old asthma.
*if your asthma/exercise tolerance is a fair bit worse than 5 years ago it's worth thinking about, if it's significantly better then very unlikely to be COPD.
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>>
>> As an aside, I wonder about having more than one vaccine. Is it more protection,
>> wasted effort or potentially a bad idea.
>>
>> As an old bloke with chronic asthma I'd guess I'd be further up the queue,
>> and I'll certainly want to take the vaccine, though if the first offering is the
>> Russian one I might give that a miss.
>>
At the rate at which these vaccines have been developed and are being rolled out I think it’s extremely unlikely that they will have been tested for use together, and so the effectiveness and the side effects of doing will be unknown. I think I’d rather the scientists do the experimenting rather than the general public! Will they even be licensed for use together initially? On that basis I’d be wary about having more than one vaccine quite yet, though once it’s available privately how that’s controlled I have no idea! Once tested together I’d expect if there is a benefit then either the individual vaccines will be redesigned, or a regime of multiple vaccinations proposed
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>> If individuals decide they do not want or need the protection afforded by a vaccine,
>> their views sould be respected
No they shouldnt, they should be isolated in leper style colonies
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I think there is a lot of confusion over the term compulsory when applied to vaccination. Nobody is suggesting you are vaccinated against your will. It would be a bit tricky unless you used dart guns like they use for stunning elephants. What people really mean is mandatory vaccination, for example making it mandatory to have a vaccination certificate when entering the country.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 24 Nov 20 at 11:41
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Just been told that our Trust is a designated vaccine hub and staff will be receiving the Pfizer jab.
Also it was pointed out that you have to have both doses given at the same location within the recommended time.
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How long is the recommended time?
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The vaccines so far, iirc, vary between 2 and 4 weeks.
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I see that, despite the spin, the Oxford/Astra Zeneca one is having some hiccups over composition of the trial and also some apparently unplanned events like the one and a half dose which was apparently a mistake but resulted in an improved outcome.
Shame as it seems about the most manageable for transport and storage.
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Where did you read about that?
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But I haven't seen anything about any other "hiccups".
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"No age breakdown was given in the reporting of the results, which have been cast into doubt over the omission of the most at-risk age demographics.
"Former Pfizer research and development president Geoffrey Porges researchers “said he thought it was unlikely the AstraZeneca jab would get approval in the US after the company ‘tried to embellish their results’ by highlighting higher efficacy in a ‘relatively small subset of subjects in the study’”, the Financial Times reports."
www.theweek.co.uk/108791/coronavirus-age-of-oxford-vaccine-test-subjects-raises-awkward-questions
though I first read it elsewhere.
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That's an amateur error.
Perhaps they were rattled and felt rushed to compete with the other announcements being made.
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I'm sure they all wanted to be "first to market" but the suggestion is it could threaten their emergency usage permission in the US which would be a bit of a downer for them.
And I suppose it plays into the anti-vaxxers hands.
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Pretty sure I heard that AZ have secured contracts to supply their vaccine to some of the biggest worldwide markets including India, although I also heard that they've promised not to make a profit from supplying to these markets.
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I do wonder how those contracts work - the UK signed one with AZ/Oxford before the summer IIRC but presumably they are dependent on a vaccine which passes a number of criteria being delivered within a specific time frame.
Otherwise some Tory minister could just sign and agreement with one of his buddies for any old rubbish...
Oh - hang on a minute! :-)
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>>I do wonder how those contracts work
They're options. With conditions.
Criteria for acceptance versus order quantities, price & time frame. The criteria can be variable leading to different order parameters.
Often with penalities for non performance.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 26 Nov 20 at 18:25
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>> That's an amateur error.
Its close to criminal. At a time, where normal safety trials are being cut short for the sake of humanity, one requires a faith in the makers to disclose all, and be up front in a speedy and open manner.
Stuff like this can easily destroy faith in the vaccination and is manna from heaven to the alt conspiracy theorists.
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>> >> That's an amateur error.
>>
>> Its close to criminal. At a time, where normal safety trials are being cut short
>> for the sake of humanity, one requires a faith in the makers to disclose all,
>> and be up front in a speedy and open manner.
>>
>> Stuff like this can easily destroy faith in the vaccination and is manna from heaven
>> to the alt conspiracy theorists.
I completely agree that given the focus on this and the overall context they have cocked up, but it's normal practice for big pharma, and probably small pharma, to present trial information selectively. Many with negative results never see the light of day at all.
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Essentially virtually all the commentary, especially the critical stuff, comes based upon the initially released summary results and is not based on a full understanding of all the data.
The error was discovered long enough ago, and reviewed with the regulators, that they must have planned around it somehow. Wrong they may be, but stupid they are not.
tl:dr? It may well all be rubbish comment. Nobody knows, not even VPs of Pfizer.
www.bbc.com/news/health-55086927
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Jesus, the world in crisis and we still have little people trying to score little points to achieve their moment of fame. Regrettably in this sad little world one cannot achieve fame by complimenting something, one has to throw rocks.
So what the Daily Mail is whining is that if I wear a mask, socially distance as well as taking the vaccine I will be 95% safe? And I may or may not be if I don't?
So, sort of real world ish?
Great, I'll take it
And after their three pages of s***e, they include at the end...
"I'd imagine that behavioral differences between vaccine and placebo groups did not move the needle that much,' Peter Doshi, an associate professor at the University of Maryland School of Pharmacy, told Business Insider.
'Behavioral differences by geography, say between a city with a stay-at-home order and one without, shouldn't bias the trial results because the trials are randomized at the individual level.' "
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 27 Nov 20 at 02:05
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Trump is clearly bitter that he is old news and wont be lauded as a saint.
C/O fox news
He argued that his opponent, President-elect Joe Biden, should not be given credit for the vaccines, which he referred to as a "medical miracle" before repeating claims of voting irregularities in the 2020 election.
"Joe Biden failed with the swine flu, H1N1, totally failed with the swine flu," Trump said. "Don't let him take credit for the vaccines because the vaccines were me and I pushed people harder than they've ever been pushed before and we got that approved and through and nobody's ever seen anything like it."
I think I have a way he can be remembered for millennia. We could name the virus after him. "The Trump Virus"
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This (again technical) paper is essentially saying that the virus has mutated and vaccines are not necessarily going to be effective against mutations. It says it's latest data is largely from the UK which is a bit worrying.
www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.19.389916v1.full#ref-18
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From the top of their page.....
"bioRxiv is receiving many new papers on coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. A reminder: these are preliminary reports that have not been peer-reviewed. They should not be regarded as conclusive, guide clinical practice/health-related behavior, or be reported in news media as established information."
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I see that the vaccine is to be "offered" in the UK and the NHS will contact those concerned.
Can someone tell me what that means. Do I need to batter doors and make sure my 85 year old parents are in the queue, or can I rely on the NHS to somehow know they are there and to contact them?
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Presumably it will be based on the tried and tested flu vaccine process. In my area that is very efficient and calls people up in tranches. This year our flu vaccinations were not done at the surgery but in a huge tent in the local school grounds. The local social media pages are pretty forthright but were full of praise for how well run it was. There was even a drive through for those with mobility issues.
I know from inside knowledge that ours was designed as a dry run for the Coronavirus vaccine. The learning is being applied already to the centres being set up for the new vaccine.
Hopefully you FMR you can take some comfort that this is one aspect of the system that will be well run and that your folks will be called up and dealt with properly.
Last edited by: martin aston on Fri 4 Dec 20 at 06:10
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I'm afraid I have no such confidence in my local GP practice. This year, as usual, it was up to me to organise my flu jab. I was expected to contact the surgery to request it.
As it happened, Boots were far more efficient (I used them last year) and contacted me well before the jab was even available from my GP.
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>> I see that the vaccine is to be "offered" in the UK and the NHS
>> will contact those concerned.
>>
>> Can someone tell me what that means. Do I need to batter doors and make
>> sure my 85 year old parents are in the queue, or can I rely on
>> the NHS to somehow know they are there and to contact them?
It will be based on the flu virus rollout*, but that is a limited subset, compared to this rollout.
Round here, I am going to get a txt message to say they have started, phase 1, criteria is x, contact us to make an appointment. Given their age They will be included in phase 1 and provided their contact details are up to date they will be contacted by email, txt or mail, but no-one is going to phone them up and say "hey Mr and Mrs FM2R, pop in and see us next week at 10:30 for your Covid Jab". Some management from a family member or care giver is inevitably going to be required to make sure they make that appointment and keep it.
*Here it was txt from the surgery to say its available, and a letter from the NHS saying I should contact my surgery for a jab
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>>Do I need to batter doors and make sure my 85 year old parents are in the queue?
Probably. I know someone with lymphoma. They should've been classed as 'extremely vulnerable' in March, but weren't. They 'didn't want to make a fuss'.
An appointment with a consultant last month resulted in that changing.
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>> I see that the vaccine is to be "offered" in the UK and the NHS
>> will contact those concerned.
Are your parents compos mentis and/or is someone looking after them and their health matters?
BTW, your parents are a little younger than me. I have just phoned my GP surgery and they have no information at all.
The NHS picked up on my wife who is classed as "extremely vulnerable" and she got priority treatment when this all kicked off, including food parcels.
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>> Are your parents compos mentis and/or is someone looking after them and their health matters?
One is certainly not, the other is but has disconnected from the world over the last 6 months. There is little chance of either of them taking any initiative.
>> BTW, your parents are a little younger than me. I have just phoned my GP
>> surgery and they have no information at all.
Thanks. If you do hear / learn something I would be grateful if you could pass it on.
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Is someone looking after their interests? Friend, neighbour, family? You could always phone their GP surgery and let them know of Mum and Dad's situation?
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>>You could always phone their GP surgery
Now that is an excellent idea, and I think I know which surgery they use. Thank you.
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I wonder is a “drive through” vaccination centre feasible?
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>> I wonder is a “drive through” vaccination centre feasible?
Unlikely, there may be a reaction afterwards, and there are rigorous temperature requirements for storage.
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I reckon the first recipients should be prisoners.
It would appear the batch has to be defrosted in units of 1K (approx). They're 'captive' and only a few folk would be needed to deliver a large amount. I suspect they're a vulnerable group. They'd be a good trial. They could be given the option to refuse (as long as they remained in quarantine).
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Trials have already been carried out.
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Care to expand?
My Father has decided that he will not accept me doing anything for him. So all I can do is find out all I can and explain it to my sister, who will then do her best to persuade my father into whatever course of action is required.
I know you're in the frozen north, but my parents are in Hampshire. It's an RG post code but they're mid point between Reading and Basingstoke. I think they are just the Hampshire side.
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No idea of the accuracy of this, as it’s lifted from ITV, but these are supposedly the 50 hospitals from which the first wave of vaccinations will be done...
www.itv.com/news/2020-12-03/revealed-the-50-english-hospitals-beginning-pfizer-covid-vaccinations-next-week
I didn’t see the Royal Berks on there, and I’m not sure what the hospital is is Basingstoke. But the QA in Hampshire is on the list!
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I also don't see how they can do care homes without wasting thousands of doses.
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Have spent the day virtually attending the Scottish Local Medical Committee Conference, where the minister for Health was speaking this morning.
It looks like they have managed to come up with acceptable plans to split batches and store them so that it may be possible to get vaccines into care homes before waiting for the Oxford/AstraZeneca one to arrive.
As far as health and social care workers, we've been given a phone number to call to organise our own vaccines starting from Monday.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 4 Dec 20 at 16:47
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Lygonos, what is the proposed way of administering these vaccines in Scotland? How much pre checks need to be done?
In other words can they be drive through like we see at the Covid testing stations or will it need to be someone sat with a nurse, completing questionnaire etc?
My dad is 88 and theoretically should be within the first batch but obviously that depends on how many doses are received ongoing.
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Bobby will vary from area to area but it will mostly be done at local Hubs - get an appointment, show up, complete some paper at entrance, get jag, go away.
GP will get the piece of paper to say which vaccine you got for record keeping.
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Then return in 21 days for part two...
7 days after that and you're good to go..
I put my name on the list at our Trust yesterday as soon as it was announced although a very high number of my colleagues are a lot more sceptical and are waiting.
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So won’t be done as a drive thru type process? Must be tough job logistics wise to get the eldest of the population out in cold winter days to the hubs. Making sure they don’t break social distancing rules etc
Could see the benefit of some sort of drive through indoor area. Drop and collect at door.
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From Wokingham we get sent mainly to Frimley hospital for stuff and it's in the list. I have also been to Royal Berks but it was a long time ago.
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According to this survey in the Guardian, one third of people have said they may not get the vaccine when it becomes available.
www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/06/one-in-three-unlikely-to-take-covid-vaccine
Leaves shorter queues for the rest of us I suppose. Perusing some posts from relatives on FB is quite illuminating, one claiming that vaccines produce mercury which gets into the brain and leads to serious health problems in later life got a fair number of likes. If Facebook had been around for a century or more Polio and TB would still be rife.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Sun 6 Dec 20 at 12:08
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>>one third of people have said they may not get the vaccine when it becomes available.
I'd be pretty sure that they represent a group of people that I am perfectly happy to get COVID-19. If it kills them, it's hardly killing someone we need. I've said before, it can only be good for the world's average IQ.
Got to feel sorry for anybody who is unable to take the vaccine though.
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Slightly odd report/poll, it says 35% unlikely to take it but then later states 20% unlikely to take it if it were available.
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Pretty sure I want it as soon as I can get it but I am sort of hoping that's 2 or 3 months after they start so that any issues have a chance to be aired ( - recognising that some problems may not evolve till further down the line).
Also it could be that by the time I get to the top of the list there may be a choice of vaccine - not sure how I'd choose between them!!
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I don't think you'll be able to choose, the government would want that like a hole in the head.
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Can we have a volume 2,? This one is getting a bit big.
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>> Slightly odd report/poll, it says 35% unlikely to take it but then later states 20%
>> unlikely to take it if it were available.
I understand the fear of vaccination but it's hard to image a scenario in which the danger from the vaccine is anywhere near the risk of catching COVID and its consequences, even if that is quite low for some groups.
However - the benefit of vaccination with reference to deaths only is very concentrated in identifiable high risk groups. Around two thirds of the UK COVID-attributed deaths have been either people in care homes or people not in care homes but over 80.
Source - More or Less podcast www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p090hlp7 (this is only 9 minutes if you want to listen yourself)
It's fair to say that for vaccination to work in suppressing the disease a high level of take-up is required, but it does make me wonder how much economic and social damage we could have saved had we (a) known this was going to be the case, and (b) strategised to protect those people from the off.
If we really had found a way to protect the care homes the early death count would have been much lower (and should be in the future if the dry tinder stays out of the way).
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>>if the dry tinder stays out of the way
Quite, but much of the dry tinder doesn't seem to be blessed with a great deal of common sense. And some of the firelighters are positively thick.
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>> some of the firelighters are positively thick.
You mean these? Zeddo's favourite peripatetics,
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>> >> some of the firelighters are positively thick.
>> You mean these? Zeddo's favourite peripatetics,
Whoops, didn't include the link: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9023459/Christmas-shoppers-chaos-hundreds-teenage-travellers-tried-Harrods.html
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>> Yup, exactly those.
If they all caught CV and died, at least some good would come out of it.
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I understand the fear of vaccination but it's hard to image a scenario in which
>> the danger from the vaccine is anywhere near the risk of catching COVID and its
>> consequences, even if that is quite low for some groups.
I think that is the key point, there are many that haven't had it or really known anyone with it. People are used to it being about, it is the vaccine that is now the unknown.
>
>> It's fair to say that for vaccination to work in suppressing the disease a high
>> level of take-up is required, but it does make me wonder how much economic and
>> social damage we could have saved had we (a) known this was going to be
>> the case, and (b) strategised to protect those people from the off.
There were some voices early on that have argued your second point and still do.
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Those of us under 50 are a long way down the priority list as published, so I’d be amazed if I’m even offered it before Q2 next year. By which time I imagine more data (like does the vaccine actually prevent transmission, or just infection - something that hasn’t been tested yet) will be available.
Anyway, I’m fed up with the whole thing, along with winter and Christmas, so am going to South Africa next week until January. I’ll hide in a vineyard and rely on the fact that alcohol kills the virus ;)
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>> Anyway, I’m fed up with the whole thing, along with winter and Christmas, so am
>> going to South Africa next week until January.
>> I’ll hide in a vineyard and rely on the fact that alcohol kills the virus ;)
>>
That really makes me jealous. I really miss our trips to the area and the vineyards but too late for
the whales.
The last vinyard we visited was Dornier a little off the tourist main routes.
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I can fully understand why the perceived risk of the vaccine is so variable.
Age 60+ and/or vulnerable - possible serious illness with death a real risk.
Age below 40 - serious or fatal outcomes unlikely. May also live another 50 years so long term risk may be a real issue.
In any event we do not need to eliminate the virus (although it would be nice), we merely need to reduce the damage caused to acceptable levels.
This is true of many diseases - flu, pneumonia, measles, mumps etc. We try to vaccinate all those particularly vulnerable, and as a society accept that there will be a limited number who suffer.
It may even be that in decades to come it is a virus which may normally be contracted whilst young and thus give lifetime immunity.
So long as I am protected I am unconcerned for the health of those foolish enough to deny themselves vaccination.
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There are also a raft of drugs on their way which are expected to alleviate the symptoms to a pretty good degree , though AFAIK most haven't completed their P3 phase yet (the large trial). Here's a couple, for example -
www.synairgen.com/covid-19/
www.tizianalifesciences.com/
Probably quite rightly, funding (particularly Government) has focused on vaccines and testing but these are becoming more widely known-about and are likely to have a part to play.
Last edited by: smokie on Mon 7 Dec 20 at 10:14
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Miss Z has said that the local NHS trust (covering 300,000 people) does not have suitable freezers and it has been confirmed to staff there are no plans in place as of last night to distribute the vaccine from the hospitals.
I wonder how many other trusts are in the same situation?
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Had the first batch delivered to my hospital this morning... even on the news.
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I'm amazed at the number of customers who have been in the shop and said they will not get the vaccine, spouting some crap they've been told by someone else, probably gleaned from the internet. Many of them are in the most vulnerable age groups too.
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>> I'm amazed at the number of customers who have been in the shop and said
>> they will not get the vaccine, spouting some crap they've been told by someone else,
>> probably gleaned from the internet. Many of them are in the most vulnerable age groups
>> too.
Anyone who refuses the vaccine, and subsequently gets CV, should be shovelled on a barra, and carted off to some plague pit somewhere to die.
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Or thrown down a steep barranco ( into which I almost fell today)as food for wild boar.
Imagine waking up every day and thinking..jeez, not more roots to dig up, my snout really hurts today.
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Stupid and high risk? Well that's a situation which ought to resolve itself fairly easily.
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Sorry to disappoint you but even the highest risk groups at the start of the pandemic only had a 15% mortality rate even when left in their care homes...
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15% less s***, is still 15% less s***.
If anti-vaxxing, conspiracy believing thickos were to be reduced by 15% that can hardly be a bad thing.
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>> 15% less s***, is still 15% less s***.
>>
>> If anti-vaxxing, conspiracy believing thickos were to be reduced by 15% that can hardly be
>> a bad thing.
>>
Very unlikely to happen. I think the UK CSO said it's still a mild illness for the vast majority.
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Miss Z was near apoplectic tonight at watching some of the scenes shown on TV re the vaccine tonight.
She said the number of medical staff playing with patients and with needles and not wearing gloves just is not acceptable.
There was also one shot on the local news of someone filling the syringe with the vaccine but the nib of the needle had gone past the liquid so must have been filling with air - done just like in the movies - vial of vaccine inverted and syringe right in to the top of the vial - where there was just air.
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Better make sure she never watches Grey's Anatomy then, that might just finish her off.
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I really hoped they were going to be the usual single dose pre-filled syringes rather than have some 'professional' draw it up themselves (they must use a fresh needle for pushing through the rubber bung and the one going in your arm!).... always makes me wince when I see someone unused to dealing with drugs pretend they know what they are doing..
Not good practice to have rows of syringes drawn up waiting to go like I saw on the news, that wouldn't pass most safety checks.
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>I really hoped they were going to be the usual single dose pre-filled syringes..
I was rather hoping it would be like an injection I had when I was a teenager.
A student nurse came into the room and said:
"Drop 'em and get on the bed!"
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Unfortunately the student nurse was called Jeremy:
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Meanwhile back in reality - Our "student" nurse was 60 years old, 20 stone and was captain of the darts team down the nags head.
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Always makes me
>> wince when I see someone unused to dealing with drugs pretend they know what they
>> are doing..
Is it something you see a lot of?
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Just read that the vaccine is being sent to GP hubs, so people may not go to their normal surgery to get vaccinated.
The initial number of doses is 975, this will have to be used in 3 1/2 days. Roughly 300 people a day seems a lot?
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>>Roughly 300 people a day seems a lot?
In pre-Covid days (ie big queues) we could do >900 in a morning for our practice alone, in a "Flu clinic".
This year using the local town hall as a base with 5-7 injectors and spacing appointments they were managing 400-500 in a day (assuming patients got their appointments ok), so I suspect it will be manageable.
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As Zippy has said mainly when it's done for 'show' on the news, or I suspect when some of the higher nursing staff put themselves forward as a peer vaccinators but in reality have been sat behind a desk for several years.
Last edited by: Rudedog on Wed 9 Dec 20 at 12:09
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The aged and vulnerable people at the top of the vaccination list are similar in number to those who get an annual flu vaccine.
Leaving aside temperature issues with Biontech, this seems (mostly) to be a fairly routine event accomplished in most surgeries by a few days generally in November of mass immunisation.
It is some effort to set up and needs resourcing as many vaccines require two jabs - but we are in danger convincing ourselves that an annual routine has become an insuperable problem.
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Unsurprisingly the media is coming out with the usual simplistic old dross.
Much is being said of the fact that it will take a long time for sufficient of the population to be vaccinated for any kind of herd immunity to be achieved and so lock down blah blah blah must be maintained.
There are two [main] problems with COVID-19.
1) Catching it
2) Dying from it
The vaccination program should quickly make in-roads into 2) since it will be tackling those most likely to die.
Even though the fatality rate is pretty low anyway, one would still expect it to fall quite significantly in fairly short order.
Apparently the vast majority of deaths are in the >75yrs age group. There are 5 million people over 75 in the UK. Roughly the amount that the Government says it will have vaccinated by mid January. Many more, more quickly if the Astra-Zeneca vaccine becomes available.
Maximum immunity being achieved 28 days after the second jab, but significant immunity being achieved after the first.
Back of a beer mat maths suggests that the death rate should halve by mid Jan and drop to around 5% of it's current levels by mid Feb. (it's 1% now so it should drop to .005%)
How long to stop people catching the disease who are virtually entirely at no risk of dying from it anyway is a much less important timeframe.
Surely the restrictions can be removed very soon and even before that should be focussed on separating the vulnerable, not crippling the entire country?
We've been on the edge of over-reaction for some time, but surely we are really into that arena now.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 9 Dec 20 at 14:12
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Missed the edit:
"Many more, more quickly if the Astra-Zeneca vaccine becomes available. "
Upto a target of >1m per week, apparently.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 9 Dec 20 at 14:18
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All I would add is that the vaccine refusal trend is a concern.
The antis contend it is a personal decision that shouldn't worry anybody else because we can all get vaccinated. That misses the major opportunity of mass vaccination which is that the disease can effectively be eliminated or restricted to small, self-extinguishing outbreaks.
Between 5% and 10% of people who are vaccinated will not become immune. Others may not be able to receive the vaccine for medical reasons. These are the people that could be protected very effectively by herd immunity, just as unvaccinated babies are from measles. If upwards of 30% refuse a vaccine then they and the proportion of the vaccinated who don't get immunity will be vulnerable and will continue to provide a vector for infection.
The anti-vaxxers don't acknowledge this even if they understand it. The other thing they seem not to grasp is that while vaccines do damage some people, it seems extremely unlikely that the risk from the vaccine is as high as the risk from not having it, low as that might be. At the individual level the case fatality risk may well be sub-1%, and nearer 0.1% excluding over 60's, but if the disease remains unnecessarily endemic we could still see hundreds of deaths per year - far more than might reasonably be feared from tested vaccines.
Participating in mass vaccination is for community benefit. Refusing to do so without good reason, while a legitimate right, is anti-social and selfish.
I see they are now railing against parliament debating whether restrictions be put on people refusing a vaccine. This debate is only scheduled because their petition against any restrictions got 300,000 signatures which obliges parliament to have it.
A tinfoil-hat-wearing near neighbour of mine tells me those wearing masks etc are 'sheeple' and are victims of mind control. I tell him there is indeed mind control going on, but it's not the socially responsible mask-wearers who are being controlled.
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By and large anti-vaxxers are thick, easily lead, gullible and selfish.
Anything which shortens their existence has my support because there isn't much point trying to educate them.
I look forward to insurance companies hammering them for health and travel insurance.
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>>'sheeple'
They do like their little nicknames don't they.
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>
>> A tinfoil-hat-wearing near neighbour of mine tells me those wearing masks etc are 'sheeple' and
>> are victims of mind control. I tell him there is indeed mind control going on,
>> but it's not the socially responsible mask-wearers who are being controlled.
Get your builder to inject some concrete into his drains.
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excluding over 60's, but if the disease remains unnecessarily
>> endemic we could still see hundreds of deaths per year - far more than might
>> reasonably be feared from tested vaccines.
>>
That's one thing I've not seen covered yet, ongoing do we vaccinate everyone or like flu just aim it at the over 60s?
Is there any benefit, for example, to increase flu vaccines across a much wider group of people?
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Coronvirus Vaccine - sooty123
