I've just discovered that in a house I own there is no earth. Everything is wired for earth, but there isn't one. That needs to be corrected pdq. And Chilean electricians struggle with "this month" never mind pdq.
Is it as simple as a copper rod hammered into the dirt with a wire tightly wrapped/clamped to it?
And is there any requirement as to how far the earth is from the consumer unit it will be wired to?
If you know where I might find the complete advice on the internet that would be helpful. I can find advice which says the equivalent of hammer a bit of concrete bar into the dirt, but not anywhere that gives me confidence that is all there is to it.
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I do believe it is fairly basic but I'm not a sparky.
Ground Rods or Earth Rods starts to open up some information but they talk about 8' of depth. Which is ok if you are on soft soil/clay.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TycWNfpgfH0
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>> is it as simple as a copper rod hammered into the dirt with a wire tightly wrapped/clamped to it?
Yes it is, and as our builders proved many years ago, it doesn't have to be copper. IIRC they used a steel steering column from an old tractor. In the UK there are specific readings on meters that need to be adhered to after consultation of books and stroking of chins. The earth rods in our new build are in plastic boxes let into the drive, with inspection lids. The boxes are always full of rain water to stop the rods drying out. UK earth rods have threaded ends so you can add an extension or two so there is greater contact area with Mother earth. Despite that, we have 2 earth rods provided for our electrics after some under-breath cursing by the 'proper' electricians.
I can't help with the regs but I suspect (as someone with no relevant qualifications) if you can get a tungsten light bulb to shine brightly when wired between earth rod and mains power, you will be on the right lines.
Now wait for someone who knows what they are talking about ...
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>>if you can get a tungsten light bulb to shine brightly when wired between earth rod and mains power, you will be on the right lines.
That is useful to know. Are you reasonably sure?
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Neutral is the return to the power shed/box in the street, which goes to earth. Household earth is just another way of providing a return to earth. Yes, I'm sure, but completely unqualified.
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My ('60s built) house depends on the cold water pipe for the earth. I suppose that's more than enough if the water supply's buried copper or galvanised - might need something else with modern plastic stuff. What do they do in Chile?
Used to have problems with shared service telephone lines back in the '60s and '70s, as (IIRC) they used earth as one leg of the circuit for ringing. If there was no convenient water or gas supply pipe, a three foot steel rod was hammered into the ground. It had a soldered end where a copper wire was clamped. Subscribers were told to water the ground it was in if they had problems during dry spells.
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Just tried this with an extension lead, a 50W bulb and taking the neutral direct to the earth rod via a car jump lead. It tripped the garage electrics. I don't know where the hole in my knowledge is so I would advise against connecting a bulb direct to the earth rod as I previously suggested.
I wouldn't know where to send the flowers for a start ...
The rest of the stuff on earth rods is a result of direct observation so I stand by that.
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I imagine that the garage electrics are protected by an RCD; these trip when the supply and return conductors of a circuit are not balanced. You creating a new route to earth will have tripped the RCD.
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>> Just tried this with an extension lead, a 50W bulb and taking the neutral direct
>> to the earth rod via a car jump lead. It tripped the garage electrics. I
>> don't know where the hole in my knowledge is so I would advise against connecting
>> a bulb direct to the earth rod as I previously suggested.
Somebody better qualified will be along shortly but I suspect you have an earth leakage circuit breaker. If it detects a difference between L & N (implying a loss to earth, perhaps via you) then it trips out in microseconds.
EDIT: Cross posted with Peter who is of same opinion.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 19 Oct 20 at 18:02
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How old is the property? If it is quite old then a two wire installation (no seperate earth) was probably the norm at the time. The neutral wire is used for both neutral and earth. Two wire is still in use in the UK, even for new installations but it depends on the type of cabling provided by the supplier when it is installed.
You really need to consult your electricity supply company and local regulations. Anything we tell you here might be applicable in UK but might contravene your local regs.
Hakeye's tripping breaker is definitely earth leakage.
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>>You really need to consult your electricity supply company
Utter clowns, I'm afraid. There is zero chance of finding anybody there who has a clue. There is a set of regulations but it says nothing about the earth other than that there must be one. Where as it is quite strenuously detailed about everything else.
All they will say is "read the regulations and follow them".
Oh, and the house is mostly wired with three wires. It's just that back at the box the earth wire doesn't go anywhere.
Around the other side of the house I have found an earth stake with a wire going to it, but that wire runs a few metres along that side fo the house and then just stops.
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>> Oh, and the house is mostly wired with three wires. It's just that back at
>> the box the earth wire doesn't go anywhere.
Is it possible breaking the earth link is somebody's way of solving a problem?
I have a device I keep in the caravan for detecting electrical oddities. I don't think French regulations diiferentiate Live/Neutral like we do and there's a risk of things being 'live' when they should no be.
www.toolstation.com/socket-tester/p82826?
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>>Is it possible breaking the earth link is somebody's way of solving a problem?
Yes, very much so. A concerning possibility.
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>>
>> Somebody better qualified will be along shortly but I suspect you have an earth leakage
>> circuit breaker. If it detects a difference between L & N (implying a loss to
>> earth, perhaps via you) then it trips out in microseconds.
>>
>> EDIT: Cross posted with Peter who is of same opinion.
>>
I’m sure Bromp and I are on the right lines, though I’m certainly not qualified!
Though, my first job as a grad trainee with BTR was a placement at Newey & Eyre, the electrical wholesaler which was owned by BTR at the time. I was one of, from memory, 6 in the ‘92 intake. An early task for us was to write some staff training materials so that new starters in sales or on the trade counter understood the basics of the trade and how stuff worked so they would understand what the customers were taking about. Being naturally lazy, I got in touch with the Mk rep, and asked him if they had any material we could use. He in turn put me in touch with MKs technical team, who then wrote the material for us :)
From an earthing perspective a water pipe was generally used, though as someone has said now they’re plastic that doesn’t seem sensible. Having just looked out of interest, mine seems to be earthed via a copper cold water pipe (not the mains; that’s steel) and a length of what looks like 6mm earth-sheathed copper wire to the gas main. Which seems a bit odd, but has been signed off by a couple of electricians. However when the car charger was installed a few years ago for the A3 the charger (which has its own circuit on the consumer unit) has a separate earth stake direct from the charger.
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All steel supply pipes should be bonded together to earth, so your gas pipes and water pipes are bonded together
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OK. If this were my property, here's what I would do depending on what the existing internal installation is like. Usual disclaimers apply.
Write a CYA to the supply company telling them what you are going to do and giving them a suitable period in which to make recommendations or objections.
Check that the wiring inside the property is 100% and the lack of an earth is not covering up other problems bearing in mind that amateur electricians can be quite creative. Install a large earthing connector next to where the supply is terminated inside the property. By 'large' I mean a multiple of the size of the supply cable.
Run a new large cable (all the way, no joints) to the earthing stake from the new earthing connector making sure that the connection to the stake is clean and well secured. If there are metal utility pipes or conduits entering the property bond them to the new earth. Bond metal pipes in the property (gas/heating/water etc.) to the new earth.
Measure the voltage between supply neutral and new earth. A few volts is OK and expected.
Connect the new earth to the property internal earth.
Check the earth at all the supply points in the house including fixing screws. Check stuff like radiators and taps with metal piping are earthed.
Get a professional sparky with the right test gear to conduct a loop test and sign it off as OK.
Sit down and have a cuppa and ginger biscuits.
Last edited by: Kevin on Mon 19 Oct 20 at 22:02
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>> Get a professional sparky with the right test gear to conduct a loop test and
>> sign it off as OK.
>>
>> Sit down and have a cuppa and ginger biscuits.
He cant get any of those things in Chile
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I appreciate your thoughts and recommendations. But with all due respect I'm guessing you've not lived in the Third/Developing World?
I shall take such of your suggestions as I can and that are practical.
Thanks.
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The only things you need are a multimeter, some cable, a few connectors and some tea and ginger biscuits. The sparky can wait until you find someone suitable.
Does four years in the middle of the Namib Desert count as Third World? How about Basingstoke?
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I was really talking about communication with the electricity company, not your eminently sensible practical steps.
No, 4 years in a desert does not count since it does not involve a bunch of ridiculous Chileans 'running' an electricity company.
Though you do have a point about Basingstoke.
Comments about tea and ginger biscuiy are cruel and uncalled for.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 20 Oct 20 at 01:15
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>> All steel supply pipes should be bonded together to earth, so your gas pipes and
>> water pipes are bonded together
>>
Ah I see...thanks :)
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Our bungalow has had a partial rewire recently following a landlord safety check.
The sparky did away with the earth connection to the metal rod that was hammered into the ground. He even ground down the metal rod so that it's flush with the concrete path.
I've no idea where he's since picked up an earth from. I wasn't there when he carried out the work. I have checked though, and we do still have an earth connection.
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1995 build no ground rods that I'm aware of. I understand there are grounds at the substation.
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>> The sparky did away with the earth connection to the metal rod that was hammered
>> into the ground. He even ground down the metal rod so that it's flush with
>> the concrete path.
>>
>> I've no idea where he's since picked up an earth from. I wasn't there when
>> he carried out the work. I have checked though, and we do still have an
>> earth connection.
Don't take this as any sort of technical advice, but the supply comes with an earth, or at least it does for the supply I have just arranged with UK Power Networks. But there is still a requirement to provide an additional earth IIRC. Sort of 'earthing the earth'.
It has also struck me that when you see an earth connection made to a metal water of gas pipe, they might just be earthing the pipe rather than the supply or finding a route to an earth that is not the pipe itself. There were certainly earth connections to my internal gas and water pipes but we have recently unearthed, literally, the water and gas connections and they are both plastic pipes.
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A simple explanation of different earthing methods. Note the potential problem with PME.
electricalapprentice.co.uk/an-introduction-to-earthing-and-bonding/
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]Thank you. Will sit down and read it carefully later.
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I order some stuff to be delivered. Amongst it;
Conduit [Tuberia EMT 25 mm]
Connectors [Copla EMT 25 mm]
The obvious idea being that each connector joins two lengths of conduit.
What arrives is conduit of 25mm diameter and connectors of 20mm. So I ring the useless b******s up and ask how that is supposed to work.
"Sorry sir, we don't have any 25mm connectors so we sent out the 20mm"
"But that's no b***** good, how's that supposed to help? I need 25mm"
"We haven't got any that's why we sent the 20mm"
"When will you have some 25mm"
"Never, we don't stock them"
"$#%!! - So HTF do other people join their pipes?"
"Dunno, buy them somewhere else I suppose".
FML.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 20 Oct 20 at 16:05
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Thanks, I think.
Because now along with all the rest of my tribulations I now also feel old.
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I've got it on Vinyl, another bit of our peer group thing in school...(I think they were happy days)
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The existing wiring in the house was not 100%. Several dodgy significant wires with even dodgier joins were fixed/replaced/removed.
The house did have earth stakes. Two in fact. Both with what looks like old and rotted 13 amp wire connected. Not that it mattered much since both earth wires just sort of ended. One in the dirt, the other half way up an exterior wall.
So I sunk a New earth pole. Copper, two metres deep in reasonably moist earth since it is a flower bed. Butch earth wire attached to it and to main circuit board. Most circuits now earthed, though not all. New heavy duty circuits (6mm wire) in conduit run to the kitchen with all appropriate safety devices. All major appliances are on earthed circuits.
Half a ton of wire, some of which was connected at one end but not the other simply removed. Some of it lethal garbage with twisted together joins without even any insulating tape.
I'm pretty sure the house is now safe and correctly wired, though to be honest some of the lighting circuits are probably still a bit iffy. U¿ I'll get to them.
One circuit in the garden has stopped working. No doubt related to something I've decided was dangerous and simply removed. I don't care.
After 4 solid 14 hour days accompanied by two of my handymen I've quite had enough with only coffee breaks, I have blisters, aches, pains and bruises . So it is what it is.
A dangerous intellectual who owns his own multimeter and knows how to switch it on is coming to check everything next week on the pretence that he's a qualified electrician.
We shall see. Probably as much use as a chocolate fireguard I imagine. That's if he even turns up and I wouldn't give that more than 50:50.
Thank you all for your advice and help.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 23 Oct 20 at 23:59
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Well done.
Time for tea and ginger biscuits; you've earned it.
O, wait a minute ...
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You could of not kicked the man while he was down
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I didn't become a captain of the computer industry by being nice all the time ;)
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>The existing wiring in the house was not 100%. Several dodgy significant wires with even dodgier joins..
If you had dodgy joints in circuits carrying more than a couple of amps I'm surprised you didn't have breakers tripping or even worse, sparks and overheating.
In any case, you'll probably need to re-make the connections to the capacitive reluctance arc protector in the consumer unit.
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>> In any case, you'll probably need to re-make the connections to the capacitive reluctance arc
>> protector in the consumer unit.
Naah, it's fine. I cross-wired it with the flux capacitor in the car and crossed it with the Eye of Harmony in the Tardis. I reckon that'll hold it.
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>> it with the Eye of Harmony in the Tardis. I reckon that'll hold it.
Harmony! Crikey, that's reminded me of the old advert with the very seventies and you would never get away with it now line, "is she or isn't she?" .
Goodness.
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Is she or isn't she what?
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>> Is she or isn't she what?
>>
...a qualified electrician. (NICEIC) ;-)
(Understands the meaning of ac/dc)
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Sat 24 Oct 20 at 20:01
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>> Is she or isn't she what?
Wearing Harmony hairspray but maybe there was a subtext that went whoosh over my head at 13.
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I think Derek Guyler did one of those before he took up with Scotch Tapes.
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Earth for a house - Fullchat
