Non-motoring > Plaza Italia, Santiago right now.....	Tax / Insurance / Warranties
Thread Author: No FM2R	Replies: 31

New Sun 18 Oct 20 21:55   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

8< snip. Link removed at OPs request A number of metro stations are on fire. t***s, one and all. Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 23 Dec 20 at 02:46 Reply to this message | Report message

New Sun 18 Oct 20 23:55   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - smokie

I don't understand why you stay there,but I'm sure, like many places, it has many redeeming features so long as you know your way around the trouble spots etc. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 08:09   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - smokie

It's made the Beeb front page www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-54594707 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 08:31   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Duncan

>> It's made the Beeb front page Weeelll... Not the front page of the Home page. www.bbc.co.uk/ Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 08:49   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - smokie

The News front page, for me anyway! www.bbc.com/news Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 08:52   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Duncan

I can't see it on that link, smokie? But, any road up. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 08:55   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Bromptonaut

Smokie is, I think, still in Portugal and seeing the non UK version. Similarly the Chile situation was headlining on the World Service but disappeared when Radio 4 came back on at 05:30. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 09:23   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - smokie

Ah, yes Bromps, that's the difference. If I use my VPN to come up as the UK most of the news pages are different. Oh well, it made the front page of the BBC News in Portugal :-) Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 09:54   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Duncan

>> Oh well, it made the front page of the BBC News in Portugal :-) >> Apropos of nothing. How many times have I told you that my Dad used to deliver newspapers to the King of Portugal? You can use it as a chat-up line if you want. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 11:44   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - sooty123

I've seen several churches have been set on fire, are they seen as part of the problem or is it mindless? Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 14:10   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

>> I've seen several churches have been set on fire, are they seen as part of >> the problem or is it mindless? Mindless attacks on easy and dramatic targets. These idiots don't know, nor care for that matter, what the problem is never mind having a clue what is or is not part of it. Their issue can be summarised as "Other people have got more so we want more but we think we should be given it and not have to put any effort into getting it". It's true that society is massively unfair and out of balance here, but their approach is laughable, doomed to failure and wrecking the country for everyone, Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 14:06   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

>> I don't understand why you stay there,but I'm sure, like many places, it has many >> redeeming features so long as you know your way around the trouble spots etc. It has redeeming features. These riots began last year, before that there were few restrictions or dangers, though an incredible amount of annoyances and irritations. And I speak the language, know the culture and can fit right in. But when I leave, I'm not coming back. So I'll leave when everything is finished. And that includes #2 daughter's secondary education. The next time I return to Europe to live I intend to be the last time I leave Europe. A lifetime of globe-trotting has been great fun, but I'm done. I shall restrict myself to Europe-trotting in future, and even then limit my air travel as much as possible. I have no idea how many miles I've flown. The only figure I can remember, or indeed have ever known, is that in 1996 I earned just over 2 million air miles which my parents used on a round the world trip. Airmiles always seemed a weird idea to me; I fly a lot so you give me more flights? No thanks. Road & rail is my way in the future. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 14:32   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Crankcase

>> Road & rail is my way in the future. Or this, perhaps. I fancy this. europe.stripes.com/travel/europe-air-hot-air-balloon-excursions I tried to get Google Earth to do a "balloon sort of flying over thing", as it used to do, but they've taken that away. Now it has a built in flight simulator of sorts instead, but I don't want to "fly" a plane, I just want to waft over the landscape admiring the view. I suppose I really want MS flight Sim 2020 without any planes. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 19 Oct 20 14:42   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

Yes, really fancy that. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 Oct 20 10:34   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Ambo

I believe the Chilean riots are in protest against the constitution, ahead of a referendum on it. What do the rioters find wrong with the existing one and what do they propose in its stead? Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 Oct 20 14:46   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

That is an overly simplistic and mostly wrong point of view the likes of which the Guardian spouts from time to time in an attempt to appear knowledgable. As concisely as I can; (which isn't very, so if you don't care much you're probably better just to skip this post). The fundamental issue is the massive inequality in Chile. The rich are very rich, the poor are very poor. e.g. Company Director; perhaps £100,000 p.a. Shop Assistant / Office worker; perhaps £6,000 p.a. Manual worker; perhaps £3,000 p.a. And the black economy is huge; there are street sellers, street performers and beggars everywhere, surviving on a pittance. The poor will tend to buy their food from markets whereas the rich will buy from Supermarkets. The difference in stock in supermarkets depending on whereabouts in the city they are is phenomenal. At the top end of town, around Lo Barnechea & La Dehesa it is a high quality living environment. Sort of like a pseudo Dallas or Chicago. Downtown it is an area where you would probably not be comfortable to go. It's dirty, nothing works very well, buildings are often in a sad state of repair and life is just generally more difficult. As it happens, I go down there often, but most don't. Inhabitants of Lo Barnechea may never go down there in their lives. And this city isn't *that* big. No sector of society has any clue how any other sector lives. It is not simply rich vs. poor. Everybody resents anybody with more than them and looks down upon anybody with less. But the differences in every part of quality of life and standard of living are monumental. Now of course a large sector of society is happy with how things are. They're comfortable, lead a good life, have maids (called 'nanas' here) and gardeners, kids go to a private school (which is not the same as a UK private school, it's about the equivalent of a UK comprehensive but far better than a Chilean state school), drive nice cars, many have second residences and they are treated better by Chilean society. However, by far the majority is not in that position. Low quality education in badly equipped schools, everything they see on television is out of their reach, don't live in good areas and are often looked down upon. There is little social mobility. Not only is it almost impossible for a poor person to become rich, it is also almost impossible that a rich person will become poor, however lazy, useless or dishonest they are. So, the problem is that a major part of Chilean society is fundamentally, deeply and thoroughly angry and pssed-off about many, many things. These riots are not really about anyone thing, they are about angry disenfranchised people lashing out, feeling power and relevance with people paying attention. One of the issues, and the one most often latched on by foreign press, is the one of the constitution. The population isn't really clear about what's wrong with the Constitution, it's just become the whipping boy. I watched one guy being interviewed on the streets over the weekend and he wanted the constitution changed because he felt his health carte wasn't good enough. Quite how the constitution was going to address health care quality he wasn't clear about. Others think it will fix health care, others think it will depose their democratically elected President. It is worth mentioning that voting was compulsory until recent times. In the last election only 48% turned out to vote, giving you an idea of how much effort Chileans put into stuff. Of those that turned out 55% voted for the current president, Pinera, and 45% for the centre left "Nueva Mayoría". [That was the second round, in the first it was Pinera 36%, NM 22% and Broad Front (Left Wing) 20% but the turnout was even lower]. So they are voting against a democratically elected President from 18 months ago, you'd think it would have been easier to vote against him. However, there are also violent pro-constitution riots going on, which most newspapers seem to miss or ignore, though to be fair they are mostly smaller. They're also further up the town since the further up you go the more acceptable people find the status quo. And in amongst that we also have a substantial group of anarchist trouble makers who simply want to stir it all up and wreck everything. In amongst all that there is a major stumbling block. For reasons far too complicated to go into here, Chileans have a complex psyche. And one of the manifestations of that is that they believe they should be given what they want (which is usually just more). They do not see that they should change, put effort in, or work for it. That they should make any sacrifice or alter their approach. And if they do get more, they don't really care about those around them who did not get more. Chileans do not look after each other. or, indeed, respect each other. Nobody lets anybody through a door first, or lets them pull out in traffic, or moves out he way of others on the pavement. I have worked all over the world. In my opinion the people of Chile are totally unique. Argentina, Bolivia, Peru and Brazil are quite different. Consequently it is difficult to see how this can ever be resolved. I do hope that the people who want to change the constitution win the vote on Sunday but right now it is by no means certain that they will do so. But if they don't, Santiago will catch fire as they announce the result. It will be bad. I could go on and on. In summary, Chile is broken and the BBC & the British media simply don't understand. Even though some of them have correspondents here. But hey live in the wealthy bubble. I think it will be 5 - 10 years before Santiago, and thus Chile, sorts itself out. Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 Oct 20 16:22   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Ambo

Many thanks for that detailed exposition. And we think *we've* got social problems! Reply to this message | Report message

New Tue 20 Oct 20 16:30   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

You're welcome. Sorry for my appalling typing and the glaring errors so obvious now I read it back. Reply to this message | Report message

New Thu 22 Oct 20 19:54   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - MD

It all sounds a bit complex Mark. When eventually you do come back I'll buy you lunch. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Thu 22 Oct 20 21:32   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

See you need to be careful what you offer. As it stands I'm back mid December for a month or two. So I'll not only take you up on that lunch I'll buy you one back as well. Lovely area around you so that'll be no hardship. I'll send you a WhatsApp when the dates are absolutely confirmed. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 20 20:23   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - MD

That sounds like a plan. We haven't eaten out for yonks and this Covid 'Crap' has not helped either. I'm sure that we can sort something. I am looking forward to a return to some sort of 'normality' although I don't hold out huge hopes. Reply to this message | Report message       1

New Sat 24 Oct 20 20:56   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Bromptonaut

Not trying to challenge your view; you are there and seeing it. However there's a contrast between: >> The fundamental issue is the massive inequality in Chile. The rich are very rich, the >> poor are very poor. >> >> e.g. >> Company Director; perhaps £100,000 p.a. >> Shop Assistant / Office worker; perhaps £6,000 p.a. >> Manual worker; perhaps £3,000 p.a. >> There is little social mobility. Not only is it almost impossible for a poor person >> to become rich, it is also almost impossible that a rich person will become poor, >> however lazy, useless or dishonest they are And >> For reasons far too complicated to go into here, Chileans have a complex psyche. And >> one of the manifestations of that is that they believe they should be given what >> they want (which is usually just more). They do not see that they should change, >> put effort in, or work for it. That they should make any sacrifice or alter >> their approach. What are the prospects for history repeating itself with Socialism winning an election or revolution? Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 20 17:35   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Fursty Ferret

>> 8< snip. Links removed at OPs request >> >> A number of metro stations are on fire. >> >> t***s, one and all. >> Ah, for crying out loud. I've only just managed to get the smell of tear gas out of my clothes from my last visit. Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 23 Dec 20 at 02:46 Reply to this message | Report message

New Fri 23 Oct 20 17:39   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

It´s not that bad again yet,but I wouldnt't be coming in next week if I were you. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 20 00:32   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Fullchat

'Ah, for crying out loud. I've only just managed to get the smell of tear gas out of my clothes from my last visit.' If its CS just make sure you wash your hands before you go for a pee :/ Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 20 00:35   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

Not something I know much about but I just googled it and yes, the Carabineros use CS gas. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 20 08:58   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - sooty123

Tip of the week, thoroughly venting of clothes exposed to CS is a must before you wash them. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 20 00:26   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

It's all kicking off again this evening. It makes little sense since the vote for constitutional change is on Sunday so it's difficult to understand how they justify rioting tonight. God only knows what will happen if constitutional change is rejected in the vote. And in case you think that impossible, it is worth remembering that the dictator Pinochet only lost the first election after his reign in power by 56/44. A close result would be as bad as a loss. Best thing is that they vote resoundingly for constitutional change. They'll then spend a year or two trying and failing to agree absolutely anything that could possibly make up a new constitution and certainly not making any progress and then they can do it all again. Reply to this message | Report message

New Sat 24 Oct 20 10:28   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - Zero

edition.cnn.com/2020/10/23/americas/chile-constitutional-referendum-intl/index.html Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 26 Oct 20 00:08   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

Plaza Italia, really right now 2100 25102020 8< snip. Link removed at OPs request Allegedly the result so far is; New Consititucion 75% approved Some reports suggest a lowish turnout. To avoid continued disruption ideal would be a large turnout with a convincing win for approve. The gathering appears boisterous but reasonably peaceful at present, though there will be a great deal of quiet looting going on I expect. Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 23 Dec 20 at 02:46 Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 26 Oct 20 00:14   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

However it would seem that a large proportion of young people have turned out. Reply to this message | Report message

New Mon 26 Oct 20 00:17   Plaza Italia, Santiago right now..... - No FM2R

The second part of the vote addresses how the constitution will be rewritten. Either normal citizens selected for the purpose. Or a combination of citizens and establishment. At the moment citizens seem to be winning at around 70%. I realise that this is likely to be of little interest to anybody else in here, but just in case..... Reply to this message | Report message