| Non-motoring > "Clave Unica" | Buying / Selling |
| Thread Author: No FM2R | Replies: 22 |
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 17:39
"Clave Unica" - No FM2R
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In Chile one has an ID Number (RUN/RUT). It is also one's passport number, driving licence number and national insurance / social security number. One can also obtain a "Clave Unica" (Unique key) to go with that number. With that combination you can do *anything* on Government websites. Obtain documents, change your details, apply for licences, obtain curfew exemptions, get visas, access police records, pretty much any Government transaction one can think of. 10 days ago that database of username/passwords was stolen. They announced it today. ffs. |
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 17:44
"Clave Unica" - Bromptonaut
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| And that illustrates but one reason why some of us are very wary indeed of compulsory ID cards. |
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 17:49
"Clave Unica" - No FM2R
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>> And that illustrates but one reason why some of us are very wary indeed of >> compulsory ID cards. Quite a ridiculous association. The Clave Unica system is *nothing* to do with the ID card system. The security of the Clave Unica database is *nothing* to do with the ID card system. However much you want it to be. The ID Card system solves so many problems that it is pathetic to see a country like the UK not have it because some of it's population are scared of witchcraft and electrikery. No doubt largely the same people who think that wearing a mask is against their civil rights. And I have a UK Username/Password combination which allows me to do many things, but without the added layer of an actual ID Card with my picture and fingerprint. How is that better? ffs. Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 14 Oct 20 at 17:51
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 19:47
"Clave Unica" - zippy
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We don’t want them because we don’t want to be asked to prove who we are when walking down the street which is what will happen. Thanks Harry... home.bt.com/news/on-this-day/february-21-1952-brits-bin-their-identity-cards-11363962863687 You see it everyday here. Cops asking for people to identify themselves when there is no legal obligation to. They then make up some excuse to search for driving licences or bank cards. Totally unnecessary. If you have done nothing wrong then there is no need to present ID. You can bet on introduction the law would change to “present your card or else”! Then there is the cost. In 2010 it was going to cost billions. It will be even more billions now. That’s money we need in other parts of the economy. Not some glorified government IT project when they can’t even get Excel workbooks right! Last edited by: zippy on Wed 14 Oct 20 at 19:50
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 20:33
"Clave Unica" - No FM2R
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>> We don’t want them That is, at least, honest which the pretend issue of security is not. >> because we don’t want to be asked to prove who we are when walking down the street which is what will happen. I live in a Third World, Latin country with ID cards and military police. And even here the police are not permitted to ask for your ID card without reason. About the same set of reasons that a policeman in the UK can ask for your name and address. They are used far more frequently for when one wishes to prove ones identity and doesn't want someone else to be able to pretend it is theirs. >> You see it everyday here. Cops asking for people to identify themselves when there is >> no legal obligation to. They then make up some excuse to search for driving licences >> or bank cards. Garbage. You have a chip on your shoulder about the Police. I very much doubt you are as well travelled as I am, even within the UK. I also doubt very much that you have spent a lot of time with the sort of people that I have - you'd need to understand my extended family to understand - and I'm damn b***** sure that you haven't fallen foul of the laws and had to engage with the police as a customer of theirs quite as much as I have over the years. And I have never seen this fascist police oppression with the prevalence and frequency that you insist occurs. >> Totally unnecessary. If you have done nothing wrong then there is no need to present >> ID. Garbage. When using your credit card, for example? How about when withdrawing cash from your bank? Collecting a package? Picking up a prescription? etc. etc. You're letting your paranoia and obsessions blinker you. >>You can bet on introduction the law would change to “present your card or else”! Garbage. How would that work any differently to or be more legal than "give me your name and address or else"?? >> Then there is the cost. In 2010 it was going to cost billions. It will >> be even more billions now. That’s money we need in other parts of the economy. Ah, so your objection is cost? Then why mention all the other crap? >> Not some glorified government IT project when they can’t even get Excel workbooks right! Ah, so your objection is that it would be difficult? Then why mention all the other crap? I'd like them to bring in a voluntary scheme and then watch what happens when the world at large refuses to compensate any victim of credit card etc. crime who doesn't have one. Where if someone steals your ID and you don't have an ID card it's your own bad luck and no compensation is available. How much would it save if you couldn't get NHS treatment or Education without an ID card to present? Billions, if you listen to Farage. |
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 20:48
"Clave Unica" - sooty123
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You mean in the UK, I don't think I've had to use ID for those or do you mean a CC is a form of ID itself?
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 15 Oct 20 at 10:45
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 21:54
"Clave Unica" - No FM2R
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>>You mean in the UK, I don't think I've had to use ID for those or do you mean a CC is a form of ID itself? No, sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that those are examples of times when a unique ID that nobody else can be carrying is / could be very useful. Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 14 Oct 20 at 21:55
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 23:13
"Clave Unica" - zippy
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>>Farage Really? The blokes a buffoon who spouts thinly disguised xenophobia whilst marrying a German woman. >>Travel I'm not going to argue geography, I have worked in many countries and have worked with companies and visited clients all over the UK. >>Police. Most are fine. Good friends are police officers. Some are corrupt though and having been on the wrong side of the police and been arrested and put in cells and on remand until I could make bail for no crime on effectively the say so of ex-officers on a nice contract from a now defunct bank, I know that they can be petty, vindictive and crooked. Totally ignoring a real crime to get at the small businessman who had the temerity to challenge a multinational that was in the wrong and stealing. On top of that a ruinous criminal court case where legal aid didn't cover 95% of the bill and cost me a house was a minor inconvenience - all due to corrupt police doing favours for mates. The number of times I was stopped and searched because my car showed up on some computer shows how vindictive they can be. When not guilty they should stop looking for reasons to stop you but that didn't stop them. And whilst out I have been asked for ID for no reason other than walking home late. No crime, no suspicion but they didn't mind wasting MY time asking. When they allowed my car to be towed by bailiffs when visiting a company - just shows how blinkered they are to rules. >>ID or else. Well that's the point. At the moment they shouldn't but do. Why should they be allowed to know who I am or know what I am doing when I have done no wrong. Of course some countries are worse, but there is a mentality in this country that brings out little officials who will demand ID and of course like RIPA it will start with the police and powers will extend to over 200+ organisations and the little bureaucrats within. >>Collecting post, bank etc. It's a transactional choice. If you want the service you proffer the token required. None of them are fundamental for life or liberty and can be ignored if required. .................. The system is broken. During the run ins with the bank, the arrests etc. My bank accounts were frozen. I couldn't pay for anything and relied on friends and family. The bank put a CIFAS warning on my accounts and put my name in a "black book". These still exist btw. There's one in our ops office and I have added names to it. When the trial was over I naively thought things would get back to some form of normality but they didn't. I was regularly pulled aside when leaving or returning to the country. That extra search at the port or airport. Bank accounts still got frozen regularly. Building societies were better but then they changed to banks and it all happened again. Police stops and searches also kept up. I had to make a number of changes and they worked, because we have a decentralised system in this country. It has caused problems, but one ID system in this country could scupper that and that's a real reason why we shouldn't have one - once you're marked as a wrong un - even if you're not, it's always going to follow you around and be used against you. |
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New Thu 15 Oct 20 02:51
"Clave Unica" - No FM2R
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>>The bank put a CIFAS warning on my accounts and put my name in a "black book". These still exist btw. There's one in our ops office and I have added names to it. That's very "Animal Farm" surely? I think there's no value for either of us in a blow by blow argument, since mostly I agree with your views except for this anti-establishment stuff. Suffice to say that we've had very different experiences of the establishment in general and the police in particular. Especially since most of what you say is not related to having an ID card or not, it is all related to how the UK police have managed to victimise you throughout your life without having an ID card. Leaving the police out of it entirely, I find ID cards very useful. I have a driving licence in the US and ID Cards in Brazil and Chile and a recent utility bill in the UK. I find the ID cards/ DL a huge advantage and the utility bill a ridiculous and antiquated PITA. Though it must be said that I do not regard my name as a state secret. In all three (not the UK) countries I have had my ID requested perhaps a total of three times in 30 years. I have proven my ID to my own advantage countless times. Certainly thousands. Ironically I have used both my IDs and my US DL as proof of ID in the UK since they are seen to have slightly more credibility than a recent utility bill. Each to their own. |
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 20:52
"Clave Unica" - Zero
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>> >> You see it everyday here. Cops asking for people to identify themselves No you don't, you might want to think it's true, but it's not. |
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 19:55
"Clave Unica" - zippy
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>> witchcraft and electrikery. >> Please refrain from using quotes from Catweasel in such a blasphemous manner! |
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New Thu 15 Oct 20 09:19
"Clave Unica" - Bromptonaut
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>> Quite a ridiculous association. >> >> The Clave Unica system is *nothing* to do with the ID card system. The security >> of the Clave Unica database is *nothing* to do with the ID card system. I understood your post to mean that (a) Chileans have a single Identity Number across ID cards, driving licences and passports etc. and (b) the Clave Unica was they method by which those records could be accessed and modified. The Clave Unica system's security has been compromised allowing those with ill intent to access records. One of my issues with ID cards, which inevitably involve a database of citizens, is the risk of that database being unlawfully accessed. |
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New Thu 15 Oct 20 10:23
"Clave Unica" - CGNorwich
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| Indeed people focus on the identity card whereas the real advantages and disadvantages arise from the single database which makes administration of the myriad services provided by the state so much easier and more efficient. That can be a good or a bad thing. Totally depends on how it is used. The question is always “how much do you trust the state?” |
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New Thu 15 Oct 20 15:02
"Clave Unica" - No FM2R
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>>I understood your post to mean that (a) Chileans have a single Identity Number across ID cards, driving licences and passports etc. and (b) the Clave Unica was they method by which those records could be accessed and modified. As I said, the ID cards are of no relevance. The issue would be the same with or without ID cards. You do rather have a habit of letting your beliefs get in the way of your vision. |
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New Thu 15 Oct 20 15:50
"Clave Unica" - Bromptonaut
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>> As I said, the ID cards are of no relevance. The issue would be the >> same with or without ID cards. You do rather have a habit of letting your >> beliefs get in the way of your vision. If there's a universal database with detail of all citizens to support an National ID card then it's part and parcel of an ID card system and one reason amongst many why I'm very wary of such a scheme in the UK. If my view of the facts lead me to different beliefs to you that doesn't make either of us wrong. |
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New Thu 15 Oct 20 16:32
"Clave Unica" - No FM2R
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| There's none so blind... |
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New Wed 14 Oct 20 17:46
"Clave Unica" - No FM2R
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Whilst I am irritated by Chilean process, there's another one that gets up my nose. I have to renew my ID card every 5 years, as does everyone. For CHileans it's a brief exercise. For a foreigner you have to prove that you have not spent more than 2 years out of the last 5 outside Chile. Fair enough. And one does that my contacting PDI who own the immigration database and they give you a certificate to say you have not been outside for more than two solid years. All good so far. One has to get this certificate in hardcopy, which is irritating but ok. This certificate has NO value beyond handing into the RC people for the ID card renewal. There is simply no other use for it. So up I go clutching the certificate. No, they say, we cannot accept that. Why not?? Because we need a certified copy. But this is the original! Yes, and we need a certified copy. But after this process I shall throw the certificate in the bin because it has no use so you cna have it. I know, but we must have a certified copy so that we know it's genuine. Wot?? So, down to the Notary. Hand them the original. They photocopy it and then stamp the copy to say it is a valid copy of the original and charge me $2,000 (around £2). They don't check it in anyway, it's just on the basis that they've seen the original. Back up to the RC and they accept the certified copy. FFS. |
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New Sun 18 Oct 20 11:25
"Clave Unica" - Netsur
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Dontcha love bureaucracy.... Israel as a roughly similar system to Chile. One ID number and card that you use for pretty much everything; medical treatment, driving licence, proof of ID when buying high value items on a credit card etc. Passport number is separate as I think that changes with each passport. It works very smoothly and simply. We all use IDs in the UK whether we like it or not. "Please provide one item each from the two lists below to confirm your ID.." An electronic system with a card and a PIN would be so much better. |
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New Sun 18 Oct 20 15:14
"Clave Unica" - zippy
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>> We all use IDs in the UK whether we like it or not. "Please provide >> one item each from the two lists below to confirm your ID.." An electronic system >> with a card and a PIN would be so much better. >> No it wouldn’t. England has a particular type of officious busy body and it would be demanded all the time, even when not necessary, just because they can! |
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New Sun 18 Oct 20 15:38
"Clave Unica" - No FM2R
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No, this is just something you have a massive chip on your shoulder about. They wouldn't be able to even if they wanted, because they must have reasonable cause. Exactly the same as now. |
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New Sun 18 Oct 20 15:40
"Clave Unica" - Zero
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>> No it wouldn’t. >> >> England has a particular type of officious busy body and it would be demanded all >> the time, even when not necessary, just because they can! No it doesn't and no it wouldnt., |
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New Thu 22 Oct 20 18:13
Seems to be a good place for frog romance - smokie
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www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-54643583 Out of politeness I didn't open the embedded video captioned "Romeo and Juliet may take months to find the right position to mate" but I do remember using a similar pretext for multiple attempts when I was a teenager...and I didn't have a film crew watching my attempts!! :-) |
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New Fri 23 Oct 20 17:24
Seems to be a good place for frog romance - Fursty Ferret
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I'd be quite happy with the unique number / password combination for Government stuff. Would also make other things easier ("send us a copy of a utility bill etc" when everyone is on paperless billing). The problem Chile is experiencing is nothing to do with the concept of clave unica and everything to do with shoddy and probably corrupt implementation. |
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