This story pretty much sums up the US police, certainly my experience of it.
www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54290575
They're not particularly bigoted towards any one group, not particularly racist towards any one race and not particularly targetting any group in particular - though all of those things are true some of the time.
Fundamentally their problem is that they have no discipline, insufficient training and are out of control- The fact that they carry guns makes it all the more dangerous. They get very over excited, they shout a lot and it all kicks off very quickly. They will pull their guns at the slightest provocation or suspicion and then fire them too easily and often indiscriminately.
They think they are military, they think they are at war, and they think that they're all Dirty Harry.
Out of control. Towards *everybody*.
"Serve and Protect"? My a***. That got forgotten 25 years ago.
It's a pity that racism is the trendy headline of the moment. It hides the real depth and breadth of the problem.
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Take the Breonna Taylor case for example. The likes of Lewis Hamilton want it to be very much about race. It's not.
In that case;
They were issued a "no knock" search warrant, not an arrest warrant, for a case which they believed was being used to receive drugs without the owners knowledge. They were only there to search, why "no knock" in the small hours? Why is nobody asking the judge why that was issued?
In any case the no-knock was changed to knock-and-announce *before* the raid. The police insist that they did announce, but nobody seems to have heard them.
They were fired upon. They returned fire without knowing who, or what colour of person, had fired at them. And they returned a lot of shots.
The police fired into a house that they couldn't see into. One officer alone fired 10 shots They're not allowed to do that. For obvious reasons.
They are supposed to have medical services on site. They sent them home an hour earlier.
They didn't have their body cams switched on.
And so it goes one.
That may or may not be a racist police force. But it is absolutely out of control, that is for sure.
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In any case the no-knock was changed to knock-and-announce *before* the raid. The police insist
>> that they did announce, but nobody seems to have heard them.
>>
Neighbours did hear the police announce they were on the property. They testified to the grand jury,how many I don't know.
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Americans have the police force they have earned and deserve.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 25 Sep 20 at 07:32
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It's not one Police Force though it's a multitude of different law enforcement agencies. I doubt very much much that there is a "standard" level of training across the US.
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I don't think so no, each police force is left to its own. Although the smaller ones do use the larger ones for things like initial training etc. The federal government have tried to inforce a standard through central schools but its optional.
I don't think the thousands of different police departments help, each county, city, state, government department (state and federal) all have their own. Many of them also have Swat teams, there's a militarisation of the police over there, but then in a culture that worships guns it's not hard to see why that would happen.
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Returning fire into an unlit property seems insane to me.
Surely withdraw and besiege would be the correct protocol?
Certainly suggests a horrific lack of discipline +/- training.
As far as NoFM2R's comments re race - I'm pretty sure the Police would have known the colour/appearance of their suspect.
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Incarceration rates per 100,000:
World average 174
USA 698
Stalin's Russia - peak 1,373
Black people USA 2,303
Black men USA 4,347
I suspect there are some real social and economic reasons as to why this is.
It is a concern that in many places in the USA that if you have a criminal record you are disenfranchised - i.e. unable to vote.
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Black people USA 2,303
Black men USA 4,347
The number for black people should be higher than the men alone, shorely? What was the source?
EDIT and of course the number of black people can't (but does) exceed the overall number. I think there is an element of stats being mixed
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 25 Sep 20 at 13:24
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>> Black people USA 2,303
>> Black men USA 4,347
>>
>> The number for black people should be higher than the men alone, shorely? What was
>> the source?
>>
>> EDIT and of course the number of black people can't (but does) exceed the overall
>> number. I think there is an element of stats being mixed
I think it's 2,303 per 100,000 in the black population as a whole and 4,347 per 100,000 black men. In other words it's overwhelmingly the men who go to jail.
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The cowboy mentality reigns supreme in the US in many states, and the police seem no exception.
There are approx 175 law enforcement (includes FBI etc) officers shot each year in the US - a lot more seriously injured. In the UK police shootings are tyically 1 or 2 a year.
No effective gun laws mean that when police go to an incident the probability of an armed response is high.
On the basis that "might is right", and get your retaliation in first, open fire is the immediate response. And the more lead flying towards the bad guys, the better the chance of success (defined as "got the bast**d").
This is not helped by a lack of training and discipline - we expect the police in the UK to at least identify the target before opening fire.
Two nations divided by a common language never seemed more apt.
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I would imagine that even in the US they are supposed to identify the target.
They do get it wrong here too from time to time but as has been said there are lessa guns around so the numbers are much lower. If there were the same proportion of guns, who knows how it would look?
I respect our police but they are only human...
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>>As far as NoFM2R's comments re race - I'm pretty sure the Police would have known the colour/appearance of their suspect.
Oh I'm sure they did. As much because of the area they were in as anything else. My point is though, that they are totally out of control, not just when around black people.
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>> As far as NoFM2R's comments re race - I'm pretty sure the Police would have
>> known the colour/appearance of their suspect.
That and it may have been a predominantly black neighbourhood so another clue there.
The facts around knock or not knock and several other points are disputed.
What was the racial make up of the Grand Jury and to what extent might there be allegations of endemic racism in the institutions of the Commonwealth of Kentucky?
Not as clear cut as Floyd and some other cases but I don't think racism can be eliminated and it's not surprising that the BLM movement have rallied to the support of Ms Taylor and her family.
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Racism....
One of the first conversations I had, whilst meeting a New York accountant in Bloomington, Indiana was the accountant asking me how many black people (but used the N word) lived in my "city".
I was not impressed.
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It isn't just a gun culture the US has, it has never managed to shake off it's wild west culture.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Fri 25 Sep 20 at 16:25
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>> It isn't just a gun culture the US has, it has never managed to shake
>> off it's wild west culture.
A country created by deliberately wiping out the indigenous population. For a country created entirely of immigrants or slaves from the rest of the world its no wonder they are very tribal.
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I remember reading an article about that, the seven tribes of America, its quite interesting insight into the US.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 25 Sep 20 at 20:17
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We should not judge our allies across the pond by our own standards:
"National Rifle Association chief Wayne LaPierre's long-touted notion that “THE ONLY WAY TO STOP A BAD GUY WITH A GUN IS WITH A GOOD UY WITH A GUN".
LaPierre famously made those remark after the Sandy Hook school shooting in 2012 that killed 20 children and six school staff"
Good ol' redneck stuff!!
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>> "National Rifle Association chief Wayne LaPierre's long-touted notion that “THE ONLY WAY TO STOP A
>> BAD GUY WITH A GUN IS WITH A GOOD UY WITH A GUN".
Which of course is perfectly true. The problem in the US is they can't seem to sort the good guys from the bad guys when they issue gun permits.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 25 Sep 20 at 20:17
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>>The problem in the US is they can't seem to sort the good guys from the bad guys when they issue gun permits.
They are trying to establish a system where they give someone permission to have something that they already have [at least in *their* minds] the right to possess
That's never going to work out.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Fri 25 Sep 20 at 18:46
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>>We should not judge our allies across the pond by our own standards:
Exactly. And understand the fundamental difference about the US; it is a country of immigrants.
In the UK we have people who have been Brits forever, a gazillion generations or whatever. They have a common bond, like it or not.
Immigrants come in and join in our puddle. The longer (more generations) they've been here, the more they feel part of our puddle. There is a sense of identity and belonging, despite some people thinking that immigrants change it, in reality they add to it. Either way, they become part of it.
And that's true of most countries. But not all.
There was no puddle in the US. Or at least not one that they chose to join. So the only thing that they have in common is that they have no common bond. No common race, nationality, language, religion, history or anything else.
In fact quite the opposite; originally they were all running away from something; oppression, poverty, etc. etc. With the exception, of course, of slaves who didn't want to go there in the first place and even now that presents a bitterness.
And that gives them a problem. Because if anyone tries to present itself as the national image, which is pretty much what WASPS and Rednecks do, then another group jumps up to point out that they are not the national core.
The US has tried to become a single puddle, but it can't. And it causes resentment, frustration and aggression.
Clumsily put, I'm sure. On a phone in a waiting room, but hopefully you see the point I am trying to make.
Fixing that country would require them forgetting or stopping to care about history, and forgoing any idea of a single national identity. Kind of difficult for such a nationalistic country.
And as for guns, the fundamental problem is that they want them. And gun control law will not make that want go away. Societal pressure will, of course, but which society?
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From 1980 - 2008 84% of white people murdered were killed by a white person and 93% of African American victims were killed by an African American.
Of course those figures are 10 years old now, but they are hardly indicative of a race war. Quite the opposite in fact, seemingly a lack of integration to the point where they are not around each enough to get to murderous activities.
Between 2007 and 2017 57% of gun murder victims were black. in 2013 53% of murder arrests were black.
All a bit vague, but not terribly disproportionate.
Interestingly in that same period 62% of "non-gun" murder victims were white.
The Americans clearly have race, religion and colour problems. But they equally have just problems.
14% of the US is Black, 76% is white and 10% is something else.
So you'd kind of think, all else being equal, that there'd be 5 times more whites shot by police than there are blacks.
In fact only about twice as many victims are white. 1468 white and 790 black.
So clearly there are two problems;
1) A disproportionate amount of blacks are shot. But how much of that is racism and how much is sociological is impossible to say. How much is simply because black groups are statistically poorer or disadvantaged and how much is police racism is difficult to say. Certainly I don't know.
2) The police are generally out of control.
According to Wikipedia, in 2018 in the US 3.5 people per million were killed* by security forces in the US.
In 2018 in Canada the authorities killed* 1 person per million.
Both countries have guns, both police forces are armed.
(*not just guns)
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Apropos
According to wiki
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country
Per million of population. Wiki gives it per 10,000,000. I have moved the decimal point and made it per million.
Stay out of Venezuala.
E&OE
Venezuala 183.0
USA 3.48
Canada 0.97
UK 0.05
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US police - No FM2R
