Just been looking at energy comparison sites. The one that's coming up the cheapest is
Outfox The Market, i've never heard of them & they've only been around for about 3 years
Has anyone used them & would recommend them ?
Last edited by: maltrap on Sun 9 Aug 20 at 11:52
|
|
We've changed to BULB for leccy. No issues, Green and fairly priced.
|
>> We've changed to BULB for leccy. No issues, Green and fairly priced.
I have been with Bulb for a couple of years. They all seem to claim that they are green.
How do they ensure that the particular bit of electricity coming along the wire and into your house is green?
Someone explain that to me, please?
|
|
You colour blind Duncan? :-)
|
I don't think the bits of electricity go anywhere, they just wiggle.
People on the forum I am on tend to discuss (amongst other things!) their carbon intensity value so that must be a measure of greenness.
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 9 Aug 20 at 14:39
|
|
As long as the kettle works I'm fine.
|
In this blog Octopus say "we will match every unit of electricity you use with a renewable certificate for the same amount"
octopus.energy/blog/100-green-what-does-it-mean/
This is the government site which monitors and controls
www.ofgem.gov.uk/environmental-programmes/rego/about-rego-scheme
Here you can learn about carbon intensity www.nationalgrideso.com/electricity-explained/carbon-intensity-explained
|
>> We've changed to BULB for leccy. No issues, Green and fairly priced.
So they have some technology to separate the electrons provided by the national grid?
|
So they have some technology to separate the electrons provided by the national grid?
Simples - arrange the words 'electron' & 'spin' in a suitable sentence. :)
|
I don't care about the alleged "green credentials" of any supplier of anything.
I choose goods or services based on value for money.
|
I have to agree.
To my shame i'm more interested in saving my wallet than saving the planet.
As Eric Clapton once said "my heart is on the left, my wallet is on the right"
|
|
Unusually for me, I've just renewed with the same supplier, Avro Energy, for the second time, making three years in total.
|
>> >> We've changed to BULB for leccy. No issues, Green and fairly priced.
>>
>> So they have some technology to separate the electrons provided by the national grid?
>>
They simply match the demand of those on their “green tariff” to that of their suppliers of electricity from renewable sources. The fact that that electricity flows through the same grid as that produced by non renewable sources is not really relevant.”
|
>> not really relevant.”
Of course its relevant unless of course they turn yours off when your demand does not match the renewable energy feed. Its all based on an advertising lie.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 11 Aug 20 at 13:15
|
>> >> not really relevant.”
>>
>> Of course its relevant unless of course they turn yours off when your demand does
>> not match the renewable energy feed. Its all based on an advertising lie.
>>
www.greenenergyuk.com/OurEnergy
This company only supplies green energy. There is sufficient green energy available from multiple sources to meet their customers demand at all times..
|
Its technically impossible without controlling the national grid from a national to local level and causing you power cuts when renewables sources do not meet their customer demand. Its a lie,
I am surprised you have been so easily conned.
Last edited by: Zero on Tue 11 Aug 20 at 13:36
|
AIUI, a supplier can "guarantee" that it has contracted to supply electricity to meet its predicted customer demand, and these contractual arrangements can be adjusted up to a reasonably short period before the actual demand is apparent.
All this done in a process which involves suppliers, generators and The National Grid. (and it results in the Grid preparing to take the contracted input from the appropriate generators, as contracted to the suppliers).
The main issue with any "guarantee" is that it is for the predicted demand, not the real-time actual demand. Electricity is very much a real-time supply (ignoring the odd pump-storage scheme). Any aggregated difference between predicted and actual is managed in near-real-time by the Grid (not the individual suppliers), which has further contractual arrangements with generators allowing for short-term, reactive adjustment (up or down) to their input, smoothing the difference.
At one time, such short term arrangements would be decided largely on cost, but nowadays, I suspect environmental considerations apply, including preference of the use of renewables where appropriate.
|
Exactly why is it impossible for a company to buy electricity only from green sources that they know can always supply in excess of their regular demand through out the day and night ?
|
There is nothing to stop that, but in everyday, real-time use it is impossible to implement a regime that matches the parameters of supplier company/customer demand with any particular generator or mix thereof.
The National Grid, who are managing the real-time process of matching overall demand with overall supply, can't tell in real time which customer(s) demand is varying from predicted, it can simply monitor the aggregate difference. Hence it, the National Grid, makes a decision (backed by its own short-term "real-time" contracts) on which generators to dial up or down. Whichever generators are thus involved, there is almost no chance that the generation profile quoted by all suppliers to all customers will be maintained 100% (some will, some won't).
If, as I suspect, there is an overriding environmental rule, then it is likely that any dialling up or down will tend to maximise the use of renewables, but there is no guarantee that every electron you're consuming is a green one.
As I say, at best a supplier can "guarantee" that they have green contracts in place to meet predicted demand, what actually happens is in the lap of the godsGrid.
|
Well the company quoted in my link achieved 100% renewably sourced energy last year as you can see from their website.
|
Without knowing, I'd assume that an energy supplier would have a contract with an amount of green energy they guarantee to take and the energy supplier guarantees the amount of green energy they can supply where the second is higher than the first.
Of course, one or other could be in breach of contract, but that is unlikely. And not possible to guarantee against beyond the payment if penalties if it happens.
Also, it's all under the watchful eye of the regulator which takes a very dim view of failure.
I don't expect it could be more 'guaranteed'.
And it's an excellent trend.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 11 Aug 20 at 18:31
|
>> And it's an excellent trend.
Not really, if everyone does it they won't be buying "green energy". Not till the day the UKs total output is green. And it wont be because of the European interconnects.
|
I'm not sure whether you're being deliberately obtuse or what ;-).
All the link represents is the fact that they contracted with renewable generators to supply an amount of electricity equal to their overall predicted demand.
All the suppliers do that.
Unfortunately, in the real world actual demand will (never) equal predicted demand. Hence National Grid have their own arrangements to equalise input with actual demand. That change of input can come via any of the generators supplying the Grid, from varying up or down any means of generation available, and depends on the circumstances at the time, and the "smoothing" contracts National Grid have in place with the generators (some of whom may not actually be end-user suppliers!).
Let us consider two scenarios covering the fact that CG in Norwich has unexpectedly put the kettle on because Zero has called round for a cuppa. That has sent his supplier's actual demand above predicted at that point.
Do the National Grid....
i) phone CG's supplier and say "hey, CG's put the kettle on unexpectedly and sent Green Energy's demand off the scale. You'd best 'phone Faichemard Farm and tell them to get the whip to work on that Hamster running round the wheel". (remember, National Grid have no idea where any excess demand is coming from, only that it exists), or,
ii) immediately message a contracted generator with a small gas-turbine generator plant (quick start-up) to push some more power into the grid to address the shortfall?
If you contract with a green energy supplier, you are certainly going to be pushing up the proportion of overall demand that is met in a green way, but you certainly aren't ensuring that all of that supplier's demand is actually met, day-by-day, month-by-month, by such means. It is simply unworkable.
As is the case with many of these "infrastructure" arrangements, the true picture will only be apparent after the event, and will be balanced up (at least financially) via a "clearing house" arrangement, based on where the capacity was actually satisfied from vs that from which it was predicted.
|
Let us assume that the plan is to produce 100 units of green energy. That could be sold as 30 units guaranteed, 30 units of we'll do our best and pay you a penalty if we can't, and 40 units of we will if we can.
|
>> Exactly why is it impossible for a company to buy electricity only from green sources
Ah now you have changed your tack. They can contract to buy a total % of the UKs green energy output.
>> that they know can always supply in excess of their regular demand through out the
>> day and night ?
But they can't, you don't buy more than you sell, you go bust, so there will always be a peak they didn't see and hence they can not say all of your power is 100% green 100% of the time.
So a 100% guarantee is a lie.
|
>>you don't buy more than you sell, you go bust,
Well, it's semantics really, but yes you do. A typical contract will have a minimum and a target from the purchaser and a maximum from the supplier.
Surely most people in business ensure they can meet exceptional demand, and ind ed don't commit to buying everything in case sales are lower.
National Grid certainly do.
|
>> National Grid certainly do.
Because they have the ability to import, on demand, more than they generate. Possibly at an agreed forward cost, exceptionally maybe not. The national grid are very good, US power networks less so. Brownpouts being common
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 11 Aug 20 at 20:16
|
If you want to understand how customer-supplier predicted demand is contracted for with generators, how The National Grid hold the responsibility in real time for managing any variances from the same, and how that is controlled and contracted for, then the following provides a pretty good overview.
quorumdev.com/gb-electricity-balancing-mechanism-quick-guide/
The statistics published on the current grid performance page:
grid.iamkate.com/
map quite nicely to the half-hour lowest level of granularity in the balancing mechanism (and demonstrate how little of overall consumption is actually "green").
(A good proportion of short-term shortfall against actual demand is catered for by specialist firms such as UK Power Reserve with small 8-10 unit gas turbine generating set sites which can be brought on-line virtually at the touch of a button, by demand from National Grid. I have noted a few tucked away around the country, there is one near here next to a light industrial park)
|
>> Grid. I have noted a few tucked away around the country, there is one near
>> here next to a light industrial park)
They tried to build one near to me, claiming it would be green. A claim that was soon demolished by the huge local opposition, aided by the fact they would have to dig out a contaminated land fill to build it and transport the contaminated spoil through urban housing areas. Rich urban housing areas.
|
“So a 100% guarantee is a lie.“
It might be but no one is saying that . the the company I quoted sourced 100% of the energy supplied in 2019 from renewable sources according to its website. I can see that in very unusual circumstances it might conceivably have to purchase supplies elsewhere but demand and supply is very predictable and I see no reason why they cannot regularly repeat that.
|
...you'll have been getting very non-green energy from Nottinghamshire today.....
www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/12/national-grid-fires-up-coal-power-station-for-first-time-in-55-days
(though of course you won't; none of that will have been allowed down your wires) ;-)
|
|
What would happen if "The Beast From The East" comes back this winter?
|
>> What would happen if "The Beast From The East" comes back this winter?
>>
An increase in coat sales?
|
I provided a couple of links above which must have been too wordy for some.
They explain how green electricity allocation works. Nowhere can I see that the "guaranteed green" electricity has to be produced at the same time as it is consumed, or even prior to then. There is a link to their documents library which is filled with relevant stuff.
Whatever, it clearly isn't just hype or marketing BS. As is the way these days, a whole industry seems to have sprung up to manage it.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 11 Aug 20 at 14:38
|
>> I provided a couple of links above which must have been too wordy for some.
>>
>> They explain how green electricity allocation works. Nowhere can I see that the "guaranteed green"
>> electricity has to be produced at the same time as it is consumed, or even
>> prior to then. There is a link to their documents library which is filled with
>> relevant stuff.
You dont buy more than you sell, you go bust, as many have Its is marketing bull shine and fiddling numbers. Like buying carbon credits.
|
And just what is "green electricity"
Given that over 50% of UK generated power is from Combined Cycle Gas Turbine(CCGT) which certainly aint renewable or green, the actual supplies of "green power" available is probably less than green suppliers actually supply.
|
At a slight tangent National Grid have just agreed to reduce output from Torness by 15% for 3 weeks to enable local maintenance. www.nationalgrideso.com/document/174636/download
That's playing havoc with my supposedly cheap ToU electricity!! (Well, it is still looking at least 20% cheaper than the tariff I was one at its worst times, excepting of course 16:00- - 19:00)).
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 11 Aug 20 at 20:16
|
"More than" 20% of electricity generated in the UK is from renewables. Therefore more than 70+% is not.
No electricity company - unless they are giving you a private supply - can guarantee that the electricity you are consuming is green.
www.energy-uk.org.uk/energy-industry/renewable-generation.html
|
I feel you are being picky really. If I consume 1000 kWh a year and my supply company pays for or feeds in that much green electricity (or however it works) then I have effectively used 100% green, and contributed to the generation of that much green electricity.
Octopus say here octopus.energy/blog/greenwashing/#octopusrenewables
"It’s important to understand that currently, no matter what supplier you use, your home won’t actually run on 100% green electrons. All energy types travel through the same wires via the UK’s grid, and there’s no way to send solar, wind and hydro electrons down a renewable-only highway to your home.
"When you use a ‘deep green’ supplier, they buy the amount of green energy you require from a renewable generator and pump it into the grid. The electricity sent through the grid to your house actually still comes from the same pool of clean and dirty energy as everybody else’s. This means you’re investing in green energy generation, increasing the amount of renewables in that overall ‘pool’ of energy.
"In our case, our sister company (Octopus Renewables) generates almost 4TWh of green energy each year and puts that into the market. Practically speaking, Octopus Energy also needs to be able to supply our customers with reliable, consistent energy when the sun isn’t shining and the wind isn’t blowing, so we buy that energy from the open market alongside renewable energy ‘REGO’ certificates. On top of Octopus Renewables’ contribution, these certificates also go directly to supporting UK renewable energy generation – an injection of millions every year directly into renewable generation, over and above the cost of standard ‘mixed-bag’ electrons from the open market."
|
>> I feel you are being picky really. If I consume 1000 kWh a year and
>> my supply company pays for or feeds in that much green electricity (or however it
>> works) then I have effectively used 100% green, and contributed to the generation of that
>> much green electricity.
No you havent, there isnt enough "green" energy to supply all the "green energy" tariff consumers.
|
>>
>> No you havent, there isnt enough "green" energy to supply all the "green energy" tariff
>> consumers.
>>
That doesn’t follow. Some green suppliers like the example I gave manage to use 100% renewably produced energy. Some companies only claim to use a proportion of green energy. It is true that there is not enough green energy produced to meet public demand and that the renewable proportion of electricity production needs to grow further
|
So how many green energy customers are there and what is their consumption, versus the total green generation in the UK?
Or are you just guessing?
|
Can you 'greenwash' non renewable electricity by planting trees or paying for research?
Looking at gridwatch today there's not a lot coming from renewables; around 25%. A lot of solar but very little wind.
|
|
If I could Put a solar farm, a wind farm, a rain powered waterfall and a lightning collector in my back garden, I would have been powering the earth today, Baking sunshine then suddenly a full blown massive thunderstorm belt, horizontal rain hitting both sides of the house and all
|
>> a full blown massive thunderstorm belt...
We had thunderstorms overnight last night. Lasted for hours. Dog hated it.
Wouldn't have liked to have been in a tent or something, as many people are right now on their staycations.
|
|
Got a couple of thunderstorms this afternoon, but we've been right in the mini heat wave the last few days, been up to 37c according to the app on my phone. Too hot to sleep at night, hopefully these storms will cool it down a bit.
|
|
The storms are just reaching us. I'm hoping we won't need to water the garden tonight, and the water butts get refilled :-)
|
>> A lot of solar but very little wind.
Unlike many Internet forums where the opposite is true, very little sunshine but a whole lot of hot air...
;-)
|
|
I know Bulb must be good. They have sent me another message today asking for money and to supply them a reading or something. They sound like nice people. :-)
|
Energy Suppliers - Falkirk Bairn
