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I care for my partner who has Parkinsons and other issues. Her brother is her only relative and will be the main beneficiary of her estate. The 3 of us agreed that I should seek Power of Attorney. I recently discovered, however, that it can be held by 2 people and wondered if I should make her brother the other person. Unfortunately, he lives 150 miles away and is not too good with email etc. I'm really stressed and busy at the moment and don't have time to research the issue. If anyone has been in a similar situation and can tell me the pros and cons, then I'd be really grateful.
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Is this a Lasting Power of Attorney registered with the Court of Protection/Public Guardian? If so is it for Health and Welfare, Finances or both?
Joint Powers can be a problem if all decisions require both/all Attorneys to agree - note what you say about your Brother in (out?) Law and getting stuff done. Better if either can act individually.
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Sorry to hear of your circumstances - it must be tough. What Bromp says. Keep it simple, keep her brother in the loop.
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>> Is this a Lasting Power of Attorney registered with the Court of Protection/Public Guardian? If so is it for Health and Welfare, Finances or both?
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Thanks for responding so promptly, Brompt. She and I have just discussed your question and realise that all 3 of us have probably only thought of this in terms of Finance up to now. The Health and Welfare issues will become more pressing though and we need to have a 3-way phone conversation to discuss that aspect. I'll report back when we've done that.
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We've just had the conversation and agreed it should be for Health and Welfare, plus Finance. It will also be set up so that the brother and I can act individually. Thanks again, Brompt and R.P. Since my last post, I've also now read part of the Government website on the topic. Any other observations are welcome, but I may not respond very quickly.
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My wife and both have LPAs for health and finance, all correctly registered registered.
The one thing no one tells you is how to use them when required.
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>> My wife and both have LPAs for health and finance, all correctly registered registered.
>> The one thing no one tells you is how to use them when required.
>>
More importantly is how they are understood by the person (s) you are communicating with!
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In many cases, probably most important ones, you need to register your registered PA with the places you need to use it. One bank I know insisted that I become a named joint account holder because of the PoA over the account. Actually an excelent idea.
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>> One bank I know insisted that I become
>> a named joint account holder because of the PoA over the account. Actually an excelent
>> idea.
Not necessarily good. Can cause problems over who owns the asset; joint account implies joint ownership.
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My first look for days. Thanks for additions. The brother will be here at the weekend and hope to sort it then.
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I have a second cousin in his 80s in a care home 100 miles away. My other second cousin (also in her 80s) lives near him, but isn't great with paperwork. My late father was the family go-to for govt form-filling etc, so I have assumed that duty.
There are joint LPAs in place for both finance and health; I make sure the care home fees are paid and the remainder of his savings earn the best(!) interest rates. His local cousin has been doing the visits when allowed and the day-to-day errands: Boots for medical stuff, Next for clothes and the Co-Op for cakes and treats, mainly.
The whole thing was set up over three or four half-day visits to get signatures and proofs of ID in place. Some bank branch staff haven't come across LPAs before and are prone to giving incorrect information and guidance; there is always a senior member of staff who's seen one before and knows what to do though.
Actually invoking the powers doesn't require any further action; once the LPA is in place the assumption is that you (or I) are the best judge of when to take action as necessary. I use online banking to shuffle funds between savings and current accounts, but we have monthly paper statements sent to both myself and the other carer so she can be reassured that everything's OK.
I'm happy to answer any specific questions for the OP. Hope this helps.
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Doesn't the person you have an LPA for have to be deemed in lacking mental capacity before you can start acting on their behalf?
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>> Doesn't the person you have an LPA for have to be deemed in lacking mental
>> capacity before you can start acting on their behalf?
Nope. Once its registered its active
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I'm obliged. Does that also include health issues/decisions?
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>> Nope. Once its registered its active
The current iteration, the Lasting Power of Attorney, where given for money and property, is active immediately it is registered with the Court of Protection/Public Guardian and registration is effected when the power is given. I would assume that the safeguard against abuse is the donor's capacity to revoke. An LPA for health and welfare, per the government website, (i)can only be used when you’re unable to make your own decisions(/i).
The predecessor version, known as an Enduring Power of Attorney, only had to be registered when the donor was, or appeared to be, losing capacity. There was little effective supervision of their use (eg a requirement to account) and fraud, which usually only came to light when a relative blew the whistle, was common.
Interestingly the first Judge of the reformed Court of Protection, the now retired Denzil Lush, is on record as saying he would not make an EPA in respect of his own affairs.
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>> Interestingly the first Judge of the reformed Court of Protection, the now retired Denzil Lush,
>> is on record as saying he would not make an EPA in respect of his
>> own affairs.
Missed the edit. It was the current LPA that Judge Lush wouldn't have used in respect of his own affairs.
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>> donor's capacity to revoke. An LPA for health and welfare, per the government website, (i)can
>> only be used when you’re unable to make your own decisions(/i).
Pretty much a waste of time really, by the time you get to that stage, the medical teams involved are usually always guided by the wishes of the next of kin if the patient is utterly gaga or comotose.
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>> Pretty much a waste of time really, by the time you get to that stage,
>> the medical teams involved are usually always guided by the wishes of the next of
>> kin if the patient is utterly gaga or comotose.
Maybe, just maybe there will be cases where the donor of the health and welfare LPA has different wishes to those of next of kin and knew that would be case before going ga-ga*. Or next of kin differ and the LPA is a sort of casting vote.
* As an example, albeit I've used it before, my Father was adamant that he didn't want a religious funeral.
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When my mother started to lose capacity, she is now 95 and happy if dotty, we had a conference with her GP. His strong advice was to get the LPA in place at the earliest opportunity. I now manage the finances and after sorting out the details with the bank, NS&I etc all works smoothly. I shut down credit cards, phone accounts etc to make things as simple as possible. I pay bills etc usually from my account or credit card if not paid by bank transfer from her bank.
All the details are noted and my brother and brother in law, who holds LPA with me, are notified of transactions. If they incur expenses similarly they advise others. That way managing things is made easier and financial transparency and trust is maintained. There are horror stories of swindling relatives, thankfully not the case with our transparent approach.
My advice is to do it ASAP if it might be necessary and keep an audit trail particularly if there are potential grasping relatives in the offing.
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Thanks for the additional replies, which I have only just been able to read.
My partner is now in hospital and is likely to be discharged to a care home later in the week. She will be happier if the POA is drawn up by a solicitor, but we have not appointed one yet. Her brother is here at the moment and we have filled in all of the forms, but he has to return to Wales tomorrow. Is the solicitor likely to agree to him signing the forms now and leaving them here to be completed later? OR will he/she insist on everything being done in strict rotation?
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There are rules about who signs and in what order, for example the donor has to sign before the attorneys. See the Government website:
www.gov.uk/government/publications/make-a-lasting-power-of-attorney/lp12-make-and-register-your-lasting-power-of-attorney-a-guide-web-version
Signatures need to be witnessed which can be a problem during the pandemic. A solicitor will advise on the process needed. There has been a move to allow witnessing of wills etc by video. That's been controversial in legal circles with some predicting that there will be years worth of litigation where it's been done and there are questions later.
You'll also need a certificate provider, their role is described on the site above but briefly it's to confirm the donor knows what they're doing. Given that your partner already has a progressive illness a solicitor may advise asking her GP or Specialist to give the certificate.
I'm pretty sure my solicitor would advise against signing anything in advance but one of the reasons he's good is that he's picky. If you're going to use a solicitor then I'd strongly suggest consulting them before putting pen to paper. It's normal for these sort of documents to be posted between parties so they can sign sequentially. A good solicitor will flag the pages to be signed and explain exactly what's needed.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 16 Aug 20 at 10:27
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Thankyou so much for that, Brompt. I'm so stressed at the moment that I'm finding it difficult to think straight (unlike me!). What you've said really clears the way for us. Thanks again.
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All the best for sorting this out, JB.
So far in my life I've had only to deal with ageing parents, one of whom had dementia, and it's just about possible to maintain some objectivity and detachment in that situation. Dealing with a partner in a vulnerable state must be far, far harder.
I hope your stress will ease a bit when your partner is settled in the care home.
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From personal experience of dealing with my parent affairs, including the last few weeks of my father's life just recently, an LPA has been a godsend to enable much simplification of his affairs, and effect some transactions which did two things: - 1. release cash from illiquid assets in case funds were needed to pay for expensive treatment and 2. transfer funds so they were outside the realm of IHT when he died.
Certainly 1. was successful and hopefully the advice from the accountants was spot on regarding No.2.
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The LPA is now underway, with massive relief for all 3 of us. My partner is still in hospital, but should be discharged to a care home tomorrow. Thanks again for all the help so far. She has to do 2 weeks quarantine there first and I may be back tomorrow with queries about communicating with her during that time.
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Roger said: My wife and both have LPAs for health and finance, all correctly registered registered. The one thing no one tells you is how to use them when required.
Quite right, but I've just found a really useful guide to that by Which:
tinyurl.com/y63w23vr
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In case it helps anyone else in similar circumstances - it's taken exactly 3 months from the solicitor visiting my partner in hospital to me receiving certificated copies of the LPA from him.
Thanks for your contribution above, Ambo. Not so long ago one of my friends woke up with his sick and disabled wife dead in bed beside him. He phoned 999 and paramedics arrived. They ushered him out of the bedroom and proceeded (unsuccessfully) to try and resuscitate her. Her condition was such that the couple had long since decided they wouldn't want that. Their mistake was that they hadn't made a DNAR decision which would have prevented it:
www.which.co.uk/later-life-care/end-of-life/end-of-life-care-planning/do-not-attempt-resuscitation-decisions-alvg41p1jzjb
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Power of Attorney - Bromptonaut
