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Ongoing debate
605631
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 27 Apr 20 at 12:46
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I have a strange sense of déjà vu. (and it isn't the first time).
Not that I'm "against" imaginative titles......
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Hahahha...put it down to boredom I'll fix it now.
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Some might have thought you were just being contrary...
Yeah, I'm bored too. Soooooooo bored in fact. Still, just another 7 minutes until the sun is over the yardarm eh?
;-)
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We're sticking to the weekend to drink, however as Mrs RP works until 630 on a Thursday, we;ve swapped Friday to Thursday...so we can have a takeaway and a beer. Found a quarter bottle of Pimms in a cupboard. That's going soon...
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Yeah, but tomorrow is Friday Eve anyway...nearly the weekend...
;-)
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What’s a yard arm?
A glass of Bordeaux with my lunch and opening nice bottle of Burgundy for dinner. Drink for tomorrow we die is my motto!
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>> What’s a yard arm?
>>
...for those who drink in centilitres rather than gills, slightly less than a metre arm...
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I gave up booze after my birthday at the end of January. Lose a few kilos and get in shape I thought. I persevered until last weekend. I'm now halfway down my first G&T of the evening which will be followed by another and then a glass or two of Barbera. I feel much better.
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Was in Costco yesterday, so we topped up on red wine. Just one.
Case.
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Sunbury I guess, how was the experience and stock levels?
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11:30am Tuesday, Stock levels excellent, no queuing, it was easier than a normal Costco shop experience.
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Thanks, maybe worth a trip again then, pre lockdown it was horrendous, queues to the back of the carpark and threats of fist fights in the aisles.
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What time zone do you live in Kevin? Here in North Yorkshire alcohol o’clock commences mid afternoon aka15:00 hours, with G & Ts & beer over the fence with 3 neighbours.
Best imbibing under a cloudless blue sky with tapas ( Seabrooks crisps and peanuts)
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We are maintaining standards down here, No drinks till 18:00 weekdays.
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>> Amateur
>>
...no drinking unless there's a "y" in the day....?
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I’m not implying any criticism, but if I leave early AM for a 12 mile walk then an early afternoon beer or two with friends I find most enjoyable. Likewise enjoying a salad lunch sat outside in Spain. It just wouldn’t seem right without a very large glass of vino blanco.
I’m an early doors drinker. I love a few beers as the sun sets whilst on holiday, home to cook a meal, early night, up and away early morning.
And some holidays, like my next backpacking trip on the Wales Coast Path heading north from St Dogmaels, will be tee total. Sometimes I amaze myself.
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>> >> Amateur
>> >>
>>
>> ...no drinking unless there's a "y" in the day....?
There is a problem with that, in these every day is the same lockdown times, days of the week have changed. We now only have three days of the week.
Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow.
So under your rules, we had a drink yesterday, we can have a drink today, but tomorrow is going to be a bit of a conundrum
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....yeah....but when you get there, tomorrow is today....
....you haven't developed "drinkthink" yet......
;-)
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>> ....yeah....but when you get there, tomorrow is today....
>>
>> ....you haven't developed "drinkthink" yet......
Yeah but yesterday you panicked, and tomorrow is still an issue.
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“ Never put off till tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow”. M Twain
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>What time zone do you live in Kevin?
We are on BST, Basingstoke Surreal Time which is slightly behind GMT, only by a few years though.
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As everyone expected its another 3 weeks house arrest. That's another 21 games of Scrabble and episodes of Dunton Abbey to look forward to.
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The dog competition scene in the UK is now talking about writing off the whole year, and some bodies under the FCI (think international kennel club minus UK and USA) have already cancelled 2020 qualification
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With some experts predicting that we face up to two years of social distancing in one form or another all sports and events like dog competitions are going to face massive problems. I just cannot see how they will finish this football season for example, unless they play behind closed doors with the subsequent loss of revenue, let alone the necessary atmosphere the players are used to. Premier league clubs who get the bulk of their income from the TV companies might be able to weather it, but lower down the divisions scores of clubs face ruin.
It is indeed going to be the fabled "Interesting times".
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>>With some experts predicting that we face up to two years of social distancing in one form or another
I suspect that is quite likely. Almost certainly not needed, but quite likely.
It'll be like musical chairs with each player being terrified of being seen by the media to be holding the ball when/if the music stops.
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A critical piece of information that we don't have is immunity already built up through asymptomatic and minor symptoms which are untested and unreported.
This is obviously more than have been tested - but by how much.
Herd immunity apparently starts to kick in at around 60% immunity. The speed with which lockdown can be dismantled is directly related to how many are already immune.
At worst no vaccine or effective treatments will be developed. Solution will be lots of testing to react quickly to infection increases. Quite likely to have some for of lockdown for the vulnerable for 2-3 years.
Assuming vaccine can be developed it will need testing, production, and delivery. This will likely take us into mid 2021.
At best the "herd" is already at 15-20% suggesting a controlled relaxation of controls to a fairly stable level by around September/October.
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>>Assuming vaccine can be developed it will need testing, production, and delivery. This will
>>likely take us into mid 2021.
12 months for sufficient stock to be manufactured, I understand. So, if as expected the develop the vaccine before Christmas, then one would assume that vaccinations would start to be available for the most vulnerable in April/May 2021 with "excess" availability by Christmas 2021.
>> A critical piece of information that we don't have is immunity already built up through
>> asymptomatic and minor symptoms which are untested and unreported.
Bit more than one piece of information;
How many have actually had the virus?
Is strength of immunity related to strength of attack?
How long can immunity be relied upon?
>>Quite likely to have some for of lockdown for the vulnerable for 2-3 years.
No more so than we have for flu, I'd guess. Though the media and public perception may call for more than that.
But in reality there is no need to take significant measures for any more than the vulnerable. Nor will most of the population accept any more than that.
A key worry was the ability for the NHS to cope. Well so far it has and it is has not failed, though perhaps pushing the line more than it should. Once the immediate rush dies down it should establish itself as far more capable and better resourced going forward.
I expect the majority of the population to be roaming free before much longer.
>> At best the "herd" is already at 15-20% suggesting a controlled relaxation of controls to
>> a fairly stable level by around September/October.
Is that a guess or is there some source for that? I'd guess that significantly more than 20% of the population have had the virus to one level or another. Though it is only a guess.
There was a [broadly] Scandinavian country which tested irrespective of symptoms. Something like 50% of those who tested positive were asymptomatic. Perhaps it was Iceland, so a small sample for sure.
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Last estimate I heard was around 5%.
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I think it's way less than 20%. Barely 20% of people tested have been positive so far and most of the tests have been on people in hospital with symptoms and people who work in healthcare.
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The fact is that, even with greater levels of testing elsewhere, no-one really knows what the true "case rate" is, and the estimates vary wildly. I think you'll find few countries currently prepared to gamble much on it being a high value, without compelling evidence.
The NHS appears to be coping, but is nearly exhausted (both equipment and staff). Politically (and practically, though if you're cynical the latter is in the back seat) the Government will be looking for an improvement in the position of both of these (proven sourcing and a bit of R&R) before loosening up and potentially creating a second, potentially overwhelming wave.
This, I think, is driving the further 3 weeks. In reality, an extra 3 weeks isn't enough to sort out the above, so even then my expectation is a a long run of incremental and tactical changes, desperately trying to keep any further outbreak both immediately noticeable and manageable.
Much though we might not like it, the thing has not gone away and no-one as yet has come up with a cast-iron exit strategy - too many unknowns.
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I’m both optimistic and pessimistic. Optimistic in 5qt I believe a vaccine will eventually be found, probably not available before the end of 2021 at the earliest and unlikely, like most vaccines, to be effective on the elderly.
Pessimistic in the view that until such a vaccine is available nothing like normal life is going to return. Economically a recession like we have never known.. I don’t think the reality of the situation has sunk in with many people who are thinking that in a couple of weeks or so it is all going to be back to normal.
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>> I’m both optimistic and pessimistic. Optimistic in 5qt I believe a vaccine will eventually be
>> found, probably not available before the end of 2021 at the earliest and unlikely, like
>> most vaccines, to be effective on the elderly.
Testing will be severely curtailed. A vaccine will be available by year end. The elderly? they take their chances like they do with every other virus.
End of 2020 will be "normality" for most.
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It won't be characterized as such but we might see a version of Johnson's 'let it rip' strategy.
Some smart use of testing and some effective treatment from existing drugs might be a better hope than a vaccine particularly this year.
Shielding will continue for the vulnerable and elderly.
The economy does matter - it isn't a case of putting money ahead of lives, but the effects of a serious collapse of services don't bear thinking about. 'Civil disobedience' is probably nearer the surface with the hard-of-thinking than we realise. I have discovered I know somebody who thinks 5g might be connected with SARS-CoV-2.
I haven't got past the headline, but one in the 'i' this morning was something like "60,000 cancer patients could die". The health service might not yet have collapsed under COVID-19 but it doesn't seem to be doing quite a lot of what it normally does. A friend of mine had her second round of chemo for malignant melanoma stopped. I don't like to think about the possible result of that.
There's a lot of goodwill around for now. I hope it prevails.
Last edited by: Manatee on Fri 17 Apr 20 at 11:48
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>The dog competition scene in the UK is now talking about writing off the whole year,..
Can we eat them then?
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...Wot! And start another Zoonotic virus....
You must be barking.
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>> ...Wot! And start another Zoonotic virus....
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>> You must be barking.
The dogs are safe, there will be no-one left, Basingstokians are known cannibals
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 17 Apr 20 at 09:55
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I was getting a bit "shaggy" and with my Barbers closed, I investigated buying some hair clippers,
What a minefield, such choice, in type, price and quality.
My style of choice for the last 30 years has been a #4 all over. So I opted for
www.babyliss.co.uk/the-crewcut%3A-diy-self-cut-hair-clipper-7758U.html#start=5
As its claimed to be easy do by oneself (wouldn't trust 'er indoors to cut the lawn let alone my barnet)
Amazon, claimed to have stock arriving at end of month (Hair clippers - along with hair dye for the laydees - is "hot" right now) and also warned of delayed deliveries due to Covid 19
Three days later, they arrive
Used them last night (allowed HiD to trim up the edges with my razor) and the results are pretty good, excellent in fact, easy to use, good even results, painless,
They are only designed for crew type cuts, from a 0 to 4, But it means I can go without repeated trips to the barber to keep my hair around the #4 level and will pay for them selves in 7 months.
Excellent
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"What a minefield, such choice, in type, price and quality."
I reckon that I need a haircut every 8 to 9 weeks and after 9 weeks, it starts to look a bit unkempt; I am now into my 6th week. My wife has been practicing on the dog with the dog-grooming shears that she gave up on a couple of years ago and I reckon after another 3 weeks, she will have perfected her technique sufficiently to be let loose on me.
The final result doesn't worry me too much as, after all, she will be the one who has to look at it, not me.
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>> My wife has been practicing on the dog with the dog-grooming shears that she gave
>> up on a couple of years ago and I reckon after another 3 weeks, she
>> will have perfected her technique sufficiently to be let loose on me.
So you are going to be thrown into the back a van that arrives on the drive, tied to a table, soaked and washed with flea shampoo, and attacked by a woman who looks like Rosa Kleb with electric clippers?
Thats what happens here, but she is the only woman for miles around who knows how to do perfect Goldie feet, leg and tail feathers, and knickers. I borrow her from a woman down the road who has a herd of winning show goldies.
During the lockdown however, she is not working, and the Goldie is looking distinctly fur ball.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 17 Apr 20 at 11:19
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>> The final result doesn't worry me too much as, after all, she will be the
>> one who has to look at it, not me.
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.... Poodle cut?...
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>> I was getting a bit "shaggy" and with my Barbers closed, I investigated buying some
>> hair clippers,
We'd touched on this a couple of volumes ago. Last had mine cut at the place next to work in mid Feb. By last week it was well over my ears, raggy around my neck and downright woolly on top.
I made a different choice from Amazon going for the Wahl product:
www.amazon.co.uk/Wahl-Colour-Pro-Cordless-Clipper/dp/B06WD1CDCC
Same experience as you with initial delivery prediction much improved upon.
Number four up sides and round back, number six on top. All done without assistance from Mrs B.
Pretty good though I say it myself. The Lad's verdict of 'not too shabby' is a good summary.
Will probably need a tidy in 3-3 weeks but barbers/hairdressers my have lost my custom for good.
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My experience was that I did DIY for years at varying degrees of shortness all over.
When I stopped work I decided I'd like to try to grow it long again. Seems to be slow growing now but after nearly a year of no cuts at all it got so shaggy, and I didn't like it, and didn't expect to grow to like it, so I went back to the clippers.
I use www.argos.co.uk/product/4441586 which has only two guides but there is an adjustment. The slide I use broke on the last outing so a new one is winging it's way from abroad for about £8.
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I'm just going to let it grow. Full Wurzel Gummidge in due course I suppose. When I woke up this morning my wife said I was starting to look like a Gonk.
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I know I could Google it easiky, but am I the only one who has absolutely no idea what you're all talking about when you use these numbers about haircuts? I've never heard of "#4 or #6 all over" type things before.
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Its the length of the hair after the razor has done its job. The lower the number the shorter is the hair. I'm not sure if a No 1 is actually a shaved head but it must be close.
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>> I know I could Google it easiky, but am I the only one who has
>> absolutely no idea what you're all talking about when you use these numbers about haircuts?
>> I've never heard of "#4 or #6 all over" type things before.
My then barber, Blades in Chancery Lane, introduced me to the number 4 for taming the raggy growth between my ears and the back of my neck something like 20years ago. I've stuck with it for that area specifically ever since. It's about half an inch.
No 6 is more like three quarters of an inch. Probably a tad shorter than I'd get a barber to do it over the top though they're always reluctant to go really short in case the customer says wahhh - too much.
Might try seven or eight on top next time.
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>> am I the only one who has absolutely no idea what you're all talking about when you use these numbers about haircuts?
It usually means they are follicly challenged and so have an all over buzz cut :)
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>> I know I could Google it easiky, but am I the only one who has
>> absolutely no idea what you're all talking about when you use these numbers about haircuts?
>> I've never heard of "#4 or #6 all over" type things before.
They are grades of comb attached to the clippers, graded by the length of hair they leave behind
Number 1 – one-eighth of an inch.
Number 2 – one-quarter of an inch.
Number 3 – three-eighths of an inch.
Number 4 – one-half of an inch.
Number 5 – five-eighths of an inch.
Number 6 – three-quarters of an inch.
Number 7 – seven-eighths of an inch.
Number 8 – one inch.
You can have an all over, or you can blend say 4 top, 3 back 2 sides. Refined mine this morning, found I have a round the ear comb, which looks like a 1 to 3 chamfer comb, one behind the ears blending out to 3.
I got into short (no1) hair in my school skinhead phase, got out of it in my permed hair phase in the late 70s/80s, then got back to short hair. 3 or 4
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It's a whole new world.
I don't use barbers, had an aversion to them since the age of about six. Tried on the odd occasion over the years and they always want to talk about stereotypical man things, so football, their latest affair, whatever ghastly fight was the telly the other night or will be tomorrow, the size of the girl's chest as she walks past the window and so on.
It's a bear pit, I don't fit in, and I hate it.
I go to the allegedly ladies hairdresser four doors away. I'm not the only male who uses them, but it's predominantly female. They talk about female things, so pregnancies, he said she said, new dresses.
The difference is I don't have to listen or take part in any way, so I can zone out and let them do whatever they want to my hair. I never look in mirrors anyway, so who cares.
There is a man's barber up the other end of the street. I'd be terrified to go in, filled as it is with large gentleman with short hair and tattoos, and their identical five-year olds, talking about alcohol and women in various combinations, I imagine.
Hence my ignorance about clippers and numbers, and my instinct to curl up with a Beverley Nichols book - a man who knew his flowers and had an arch wit that appeals to me a lot.
So there. I'm a sexist effete idiot. Who knew.
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>> So there. I'm a sexist effete idiot. Who knew.
We suspected.
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"I'm a sexist effete idiot."
I used to love it when I was at school/college. Very erotic. Under that big bib thing, I'd hold onto the arms of the chair and the hairdresser would press her groin against my arms as she walked around snipping and combing.
Now I cut my own. Shame.
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I can imagine. I can also imagine nothing worse.
Arms very much through sleevey things, hands visible and arms kept well clear.
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And you spent the time cleaning your glasses?? :S
Many many years ago I bought a Bayliss electric trimmer kit. Used it once and ended up at the hairdressers for an emergency all round short cut :)
Got it out today and Miss FC has just given me a trim. Its the first time she has done such a thing. I must admit shes done an excellent job. She has clearly forgiven me for discipline imposed during her younger years or is storing it for more beneficial retribution :))
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>> She has clearly forgiven me for discipline imposed during her younger years or is
>> storing it for more beneficial retribution :))
Yes, she probably has a big say in what old peoples home you go to! ;-)
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>>They are grades of comb attached to the clippers, graded by the length of hair they leave behind
Even colour coded if you need an extra jolt
Even labeled as an extra reminder.
www.boots.com/wahl-cordless-colour-pro-clipper-10233201
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Paid for my first haircut in over 40 years a few days before the lockdown.
Usually get my mother to do it but she was already caged up and I was starting to look like Wolfman/Wolverine/Cousin It.
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If I say it myself, and why wouldn't I, I have a very nice full head of hair. I pay £10 every month to have it cut. I just got the March haircut in, before shut down. I am now one week over my due date (go on, you know you want to). My barber doesn't say much about football, because he knows that I know nothing about it. I don't say much about Rugby.
Years ago, a woman in my running club was a manager for Toni and Guy(?). I asked her to recommend one of her cutters. The trouble was this woman was so good she was rising up through the ranks, so her price for a haircut was going up as well. I think I got to about £25 before i called it a day.
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Reminds me of the old Roman barbers joke...
How would you like your haircut sir....
In silence.
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>> They are grades of comb attached to the clippers, graded by the length of hair
>> they leave behind
Despite living almost on top of an Army barracks, I had no idea either.
When we first moved here Mrs H suggested I went to the unisex hairdressers on the main street. With 3 female hairdressers and a handful of female villagers waiting for their appointments, there was an unpleasant amount of raucous chat and loud banter. I never went back and Mrs H setepped up to the plate. Recently another hairdressers opened where there used to be an 'Open All Hours' type of shop complete with mechanical, manual bacon slicer.
Tired of cutting my hair and my son's hair, Mrs H sent the son to recce. He came back looking presentable so when he needed his next haircut, he took his old dad along. I think I was deliberately flattered by the hairdresser because she didn't offer me the 'pensioner' rate and affected surprise when I mentioned it. The situation is complicated by having a sebaceous cyst on my scalp which needs navigating with care.
Now, it's back to Mrs H and her tender ministrations.
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 21 Apr 20 at 02:27
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ED attendances have dropped off of the cliff for us, especialy those then going on to theatre.
But one of my concerns is around sepsis cases, before all of this there were over 100 patients dying of sepsis daily... where have they gone?
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>> But one of my concerns is around sepsis cases, before all of this there were
>> over 100 patients dying of sepsis daily... where have they gone?
Your hospital lost 100 patients a day to Sepsis? Sod the social distancing, there is a place I need to avoid
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100 pr day is about the recorded national death rate from sepsis.
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Thanks, maybe should have added that last year there was a national figure of 48,000 deaths recorded due to sepsis (about 130 per day).
I can't help think that there's got to be some kind of cross over with the people sadly dying of CV-19 because they don't seem to be coming to hospital at the moment.
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Ah! Nationally!
So we have 100 a day sepsis, 450 a day cancer deaths, 460 a day heart and circulatory, the 100 odd a day from lung type issues, etc etc. Thats just a normal 2019 day.
I wonder how much Covid "double accounting" is going on?
Lots I would guess
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 18 Apr 20 at 10:51
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What's your point then?
Here's some actual figures, albeit for a few weeks ago.
tinyurl.com/ru6kqxh - links to www.ons.gov.uk
Last edited by: VxFan on Tue 21 Apr 20 at 02:30
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Have you completely lost the ability to read anything on the screen in front of you?
The point is there - in black and off white.
I wonder how much Covid "double accounting" is going on?
Last edited by: Zero on Sat 18 Apr 20 at 11:45
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Calm down dear, it's only a forum... :-)
I did manage to read that but if the answer is "Lots" or "Not a lot" or anywhere in between what is the significance?
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From the business banking industry -
Across the board, turnover is down over 1/3 compared to the same time last year.
Some business sectors are booming - food, most transport (not coaches etc.), pharmaceuticals, home entertainment, social media etc. Most others are suffering.
Some supermarkets and DIY chains are going out of their way to help smaller suppliers (usually with turnover <£1m). Paying much more quickly and even in advance. Offering contracts with favourable terms never seen before designed to keep the suppliers healthy.
Clothing, unsurprisingly has gone the other way with retailers / web sales slowing payments to suppliers dramatically and cancelling orders at very late stages.
Some huge asset rich companies and major charities are being very unhelpful to suppliers.
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 18 Apr 20 at 14:31
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I don't know when this was written, but appropriate right now I would have thought:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRaaJwJ5n18
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Has Dr Cameron Kyle-Sidell identified a better way to treat patients.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9GYTc53r2o
Lots of Youtube items about his idea.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elgct0nOcKY
Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy Vs. Ventilators for Respiratory Virus -Response to Dr. Cameron Kyle-
Explanation of the kit available.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hx4sG2-Ma_Y
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My starting position is that I find it difficulty to give credibility to someone that thinks the correct way to communicate his thoughts about medical treatment and approaches is to make YouTube videos and speak to every media organisation going.
It would appear that his personal goal is fame.
As to whether or not he is correct, I do not have the expertise to know one way or the other. Neither does YouTube. Which may well be why he's there.
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>> My starting position is that I find it difficulty to give credibility to someone that
>> thinks the correct way to communicate his thoughts about medical treatment and approaches is to
>> make YouTube videos and speak to every media organisation going.
Yeah, not exactly much peer review going on there is there.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 19 Apr 20 at 09:09
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I skimmed through his video* but is he suggesting that people have something like altitude caused hypoxia?
Hyperbaric chambers for use in treating cv19 patients, not exactly tripping over them in this country.
I'm of the same thoughts as Mark on people's credibility when they want to spread the word of their unconventional ideas on yt.
*vast bulk of people on yt taking to camera waffle terribly and spend ages getting to the point.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Sun 19 Apr 20 at 07:13
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>> *vast bulk of people on yt taking to camera waffle terribly and spend ages getting
>> to the point.
I have been watching this guy cruisingthecut.co.uk/ His videos are ok, but he does a long time to say anything.
He is an ex regional news TV reporter who sold up, bought a boat, lives on board full-time and has made about a million youtube videos. They do pass the odd hour or three. He can be vague on details of costs and his personal details. Is he married, single, divorced, gay, straight, or what? How much does he pay for his mooring? How much was the boat? etc etc.
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>> odd hour or three. He can be vague on details of costs and his personal
>> details. Is he married, single, divorced, gay, straight, or what? How much does he pay
>> for his mooring? How much was the boat? etc etc.
One of the things you need to do on social media, is to separate your personal life from your on line persona. As a recent popular show host found out or most politicians.
However, to be fair, I don't suppose the bloke who does cruising the cut is likely to attract too much personal fandom, freaks, or notoriety.
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If you have your own hyperbaric oxygen therapy chamber it could well save you having to go to hospickle.
How much are they? Surprisingly cheap at around $500,000. And you can rent it out to the neighbours.
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Yeah but you'd have to quarantine it for 14 days after they've been in!
In Hurghada, Egypt there is a naval hyperbaric hospital on the walk from the hotel to the town, for divers.
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I'd not come across the term before. Slightly reassuring that I wouldn't have to go to Egypt if I got the bends... :-)
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Hull and whipps Cross spring to mind as well. But there's not enough for some mass treatment of people.
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...there is, or certainly was, one at Fort William.
I once when climbing stayed in property owned by a professional diver who worked mainly on the rigs, but also had some interest in a dive school at Fort Bill.
During my week there, he was incarcerated in a chamber for some time after an "incident" somewhere in or off Loch Linnhe, I think.
When he returned home we were invited to the family celebration, at which much, fairly unusually-sourced, alcohol flowed.
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>> But there's not enough ( hyperbaric chambers) for some mass treatment of people.
>>
Has Dr Cameron Kyle-Sidell identified a better way to treat patients ?
At the other end of the scale, he is suggesting the CPAP machines ( as produced in bulk by F1 )
and easily obtained are the way to go rather than mechanical ventilators.
I have no idea re peer review of what he has said but would be interested to read some.
I am well aware that there is a reluctance by some medical experts to really listen to joe public and close ranks when challenged. I have experienced such responses and excuses fron GPs and very senior consultantst.
A search for ventilators killing patients indicates that he is not alone raising concerns
e.g
www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/
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The links from earlier today, and other reading I've done as a result, often produce what appear to be very compelling arguments for a different approach, and they seem to gain levels of support from people who should know.
I have a strong tendency to trust Government appointed experts more than others. Maybe cynically I usually think that others are just out for a bit of fame or whatever. But they make very compelling arguments to a non-expert... and it does make me wonder whether I should be less believing.
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Intubation is not a trivial thing. An elderly friend of mine was on a ventilator for 6 weeks a couple of years ago. It took him 6 months to get back his ability to swallow, during which time he was fed and watered through a PEG.
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Yes it’s something which frankly I would not want.
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Miss Z has recovered and has been back at work for a little while now.
She was supposed to go back to her new department but as they are not taking any new patients the staff have been converted to A&E & CV19 shifts.
She reports everything is running very well. Because she has been unwell and they are not sure about immunity once you have it, she has been put to work in A&E.
A&E is quiet but people have been leaving it too long to come in meaning that there are non-CV19 related deaths that could have had better outcomes if only they came in earlier. So the few cases that they have are serious and take up all of the resources of the cut down team.
She says that there is a real sense of camaraderie around the hospital even though there is strict segregation of teams within.
The canteen is now 24/7 and they have teams of volunteers that deliver hospital prepared "takeaway" meals to departments. Apparently it's good food but annoyingly healthy.
Paramedics are in good spirits but appear to be exhausted. Some reports of police escorts required to some rougher areas as locals pelt stones at the ambulances. Apparently the locals fear catching the virus from the ambulances!
Miss Z lives in a small block of apartments in a nice area. When some residents heard that the 3 doctors there were unwell a large hamper of essential supplies and luxuries (chocolate and wine) was left anonymously at their front door!
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"She says that there is a real sense of camaraderie around the hospital"
That's how it can happen when a team is up against it; I remember the camaraderie amid the tension at Great Ormond St when my daughter was in there 35 years ago. They were practicing 20th century medicine in a 19th century building.
A very good friend, a retired GP, has volunteered his services to the NHS; he is now 72 and hasn't been allowed into the presence of covid patients because he lost his spleen years ago as a result of a rugby injury and so has an impaired immune system. He was a founding father of the county's (road) accident rescue services and he tells me that he will be 'fielding 999 calls from the public and giving advice to ambulance crews on matters such as the abandonment of resuscitation'.
Two of his daughters are nurses at the local hospital - one, a specialist wound nurse will continue doing that, but the other has been transferred from DSU to ITU and she's reportedly 'enjoying it'.
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www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-military-sympt-idUSKCN21Y2GB
I thought this was an interesting read about what is essentially an enclosed small town. Although it's predominantly a young population still its interesting that those asymptomatic might be higher than thought.
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...there are ways of presenting statistics, and there are other ways of presenting statistics.
The article takes the tack that 60% of infected people were asymptomatic.
As I read it, however, the most interesting calculation I can make is that it appears to show that, in a presumably fairly fit, enclosed community, only 5.4% of those that are asymptomatic have actually tested positive.
When put that way, "herd immunity" seems an awfully long way off.
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>>only 5.4% of those that are asymptomatic have actually tested positive.
Does that mean that they did not have the virus or that they had it but didn't test positive?
I mentioned earlier that Iceland (I think) said that 50% of all people it tested as positive were asymptomatic.
The simplistic inference being that you'd need to double the number of known cases to get the total cases.
Currently I think something like 0.2% of the UK population is deemed to have had the virus. You'd have to multiply that by a b***** lot to get anything like herd immunity.
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>> >>only 5.4% of those that are asymptomatic have actually tested positive.
>>
>> Does that mean that they did not have the virus or that they had it
>> but didn't test positive?
>>
On my calculations it means that, of all those people on the USS Teddy who have remained asymptomatic, (which is far, far more than those who have had symptoms), only 5.4% have tested positive for having had it without symptoms. 94.6% of that large number of asymptomatic people are asymptomatic simply because they haven't had it, yet.
(Assuming 100% reliability of the test).
It's incredibly unreliable to do the calculation I'm just going to, but given the level of testing etc. in the UK population of 66M plus, it wouldn't be unreasonable to make an assumption that more than 60M are and have been asymptomatic. In that case, 3.25M may have had it asymptomatically, and that leaves 56.75M who havent. It rather illustrates the herd immunity hurdle.
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Something else in there that was interesting was how few had been infected. Be difficult to keep to any form social distancing onboard* and yet, approx only 15% of the crew got it.
I'd have thought it be much higher, given they did move them into isolation on Guam, but still I thought it would have spread further.
* see how the crew were crammed into the aircraft hangar for the send off for the captain that got sacked.
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One thing I've noticed is that there's a lot fewer parked cars about. Several roads that I normally travel have plenty of them, normally anyway but they all nearly all seemed to have vanished at the moment.
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>>"..were packed on to EU-registered lorries".
I cannot imagine for one moment which audience they were aiming this comment at.
Another media-at-it's-finest moment.
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>> >>"..were packed on to EU-registered lorries".
>> Another media-at-it's-finest moment.
>>
TBH I hadn't noticed that. At the moment we should be beyond politics.
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/20/exclusivemillions-pieces-ppe-shipped-britain-europe-despite/
>>
>> Considering the shortages in this country, this is surely not acceptable!?
Cannot read whole report as I've busted my limit for free articles. I did however get as far as the familiar refrain that offers to UK government have gone unanswered. I know some though Keir Starmer was wrong to emphasise mistakes but there does seem to be a serious case to answer on PPE, testing and lack of early activity to control spread.
It's being reported that Hancock is isolated in his own government over testing; Downing Street sources and all that.....
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>> www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/04/20/exclusivemillions-pieces-ppe-shipped-britain-europe-despite/
>>
>> Considering the shortages in this country, this is surely not acceptable!?
>>
I think a lot of this type of stuff is because the government has the responsibility from the press and public but doesn't have the visibility to control it all. Its normally the trusts that would be buying in PPE not the dept for health.
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www.news1.news/a1/2020/04/coronavirus-president-of-madagascar-announces-i-have-the-cure-2.html
This was also on the BBC TV News but I can't find the link.
No wonder scamming scum around the world feel empowered when Presidents are at it too!
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I don’t think we are getting the full story on the allegation that UK suppliers are able to supply PPE if only the government asked.
I spent my working life in FTSE 100 procurement and sometimes had to assess apparently obvious supply failures or fantastic offers touted to board members that potential suppliers thought were being ignored. The truth was usually way more complex than interested parties claimed.
Of course my defence of procurement lacks specific evidence so is as ill-informed as the criticism. There are obviously real problems with full supply but the inference that it’s just a question of getting their fingers out is almost certainly wide of the mark.
Meanwhile, my son is a manager in a packaging company and a few weeks ago they turned their efforts to designing and manufacture of 10’s of thousands of visors from a standing start. They worked with the NHS from the outset, without any bureaucratic issues on either side. The design was signed off and masks were flowing to the front line within days.
No doubt there are countless other initiatives across industry and the NHS to resolve this element of the crisis. But they don’t make good headlines.
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"No doubt there are countless other initiatives across industry and the NHS to resolve this element of the crisis."
As far as the BBC is concerned, the only good-news story is Captain Tom.
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Loads of good news stories in my part of the world. A local ‘resource centre’ staffed by volunteers has been set up. Volunteers outnumber jobs. The elderly and vulnerable have their prescriptions collected, taken in bulk to the local surgery, collected from the surgery, taken to chemist if necessary, then distributed door to door. There is a team of volunteer dog walkers for those who cannot go out.
Every 3D printer in the area has been working flat out making visors for local hospitals and care homes. I’d never realised that so many individuals, and our local school, had 3D printers. Supply now exceeds demand I think !
Last edited by: legacylad on Tue 21 Apr 20 at 11:59
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Got to love BBC reporting...
First line "Virgin Australia has confirmed it has entered voluntary administration - making it Australia's first big corporate casualty of the coronavirus pandemic."
Further down the page "It was already struggling with a long-term A$5bn (£2.55bn; $3.17bn) debt."
So it wasn't viable anyway, was almost certainly going to go into some form of bankruptcy anyway.
I'm only surprised that they didn't report which country the Administrators' cars were registered in.
However, we're going to see a lot of this. Whether it is Laura Ashley or Virgin Australia; companies that were basically propped up and that without propping were not viable and that now fall over.
Partly because it's a good day for bad news and investors, Boards of Management and Governments cannot be accused of incompetence if it's blamed on COVID.
www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-52363428
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 21 Apr 20 at 17:27
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Seems clear enough to me. The article makes it clear that the company was struggling anyway. If I was suffering from cancer and run over by a bus It would be reasonable for the local rag to attribute my death to the road accident.
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>> Seems clear enough to me. The article makes it clear that the company was struggling
>> anyway. If I was suffering from cancer and run over by a bus It would
>> be reasonable for the local rag to attribute my death to the road accident.
Unless of course you stumbled under the Bus because of the cancer
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Possibly but I think the bus might just be mentioned don’t you?
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 21 Apr 20 at 19:19
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"Partly because it's a good day for bad news and investors, Boards of Management and Governments cannot be accused of incompetence if it's blamed on COVID."
Yep - covid has taken over from Brexit as the whipping boy.
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To a degree but there seems little doubt that Covid 19 will play at least a part in some ailing companies demise. A final straw perhaps but without it they just might have survived.
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>>
>> Yep - covid has taken over from Brexit as the whipping boy.
>>
...only temporarily. That nice Mr Sunak will do his best to rescue the economy from the grips of the pandemic just in time for Brexit to get its long-awaited opportunity to completely FUBAR it.
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A good listen. The statistics held up to the light and examined. Some stuff debunked. Some stuff confirmed.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000hfqq
Last edited by: Duncan on Wed 22 Apr 20 at 09:31
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Outstanding programme, always listen to it. I have wondered why the BBC doesn't make all their reporters do so, they might be a bit more careful and ask better questions.
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P.S.
If you were interested in the short birdsong item at the end, and the Lombard reflex, then you might like this - from the Curious Cases of Rutherford and Fry, about shouting on mobile phones.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b070ffbh
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Curious Cases is an excellent little program. Best listened to in its Podcast form. Both Adam Fry and Hannah Fry are real experts in their own field but unlike a lot of scientists they have the ability to communicate with the public and both have a great sense of humour. Hannah Fry's book "Hello World" about algorithms and artificial intelligence is well worth a read.
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>> Curious Cases is an excellent little program. Best listened to in its Podcast form.
I used to catch it randomly on air, but I have been working my way through the podcasts on BBC Sounds, they're all available. The link above is the podcast version, maybe all the archive ones are.
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I listened to them all! The extended podcast only came in after the first few series so the episodes are shorter.
If you like popular science podcasts you might like Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe. Daniel Whiteson is a particle physicist and Jorge Cham A cartoonist and engineer. Both informative and entertaining
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>> A good listen. The statistics held up to the light and examined. Some stuff debunked.
>> Some stuff confirmed.
>>
>> www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000hfqq
>>
Best program on broadcast media by far.
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I subscribed to the More Or Less podcast yonks ago when someone here mentioned it but never yet listened to one. I seem to have all of them going back to 19 June 2015!!! I don't think it will really matter about their age, it's the principles which will be of interest.
A couple of comedy shows come higher up my listening priority but I will try one of these soon. Quite a lot are less than 10 minutes.
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During the discussion on 'More or Less' between Tim Harford and Jason Oke (link) they agreed that we are past the worst.
Because of the delay in reporting deaths for up to a couple of weeks for a variety of reasons, the worst day for deaths was April 10th and therefore the worst day for new infection was about 20th march.
www.phc.ox.ac.uk/team/jason-oke
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>> Duhhh plot spoiler LOL
>>
Not really, it is how they break the stats down that is the interesting part, and how it exposes what is reported in the media as headline making nonsense.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Wed 22 Apr 20 at 14:50
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Yes I found the one about 'the average reading age' very enlightening as it's often misunderstood and misquoted.
Another spoiler... the maximum anybody can get is 12 years old!
Last edited by: Rudedog on Wed 22 Apr 20 at 16:07
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I saw somewhere today he went from being Winston Churchill to Where'w Wally which is a bit harsh but amused me.
Anyway - it goes without saying really but he must've had a really ad dose of it. He was in intensive care was it 3 or 4 nights, and has been out of hospital for nearly 2 weeks. I do believe in proper R&R after illness but I bet he's raring to go and the medics are holding him back.
It'd be nice to see him back soon, though most of the characters doing the daily thing have done all right IMO. Only Priti was slightly less impressive than the others. I'm also impressed with most of the other people they've had on the show. All seem pretty honest and up to their job to me.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 23 Apr 20 at 17:44
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Miss Z and about a dozen other junior doctors were not allowed on to any of the wards today as there was insufficient PPE.
But they had to stay on site so she spent the day helping in non-clinical areas, doing admin and studying.
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>> Miss Z and about a dozen other junior doctors were not allowed on to any
>> of the wards today as there was insufficient PPE.
>>
>> But they had to stay on site so she spent the day helping in non-clinical
>> areas, doing admin and studying.
You must experience extreme cognitive dissonance watching the daily updates from Hancock. I certainly do.
What with that, Trump, 5G causing COVID-19, Americans demonstrating to stop infection control measures etc it's as if the whole world is on psychotropic drugs.
It's come to something when the President of the USA going on TV suggesting injections of disinfectant doesn't even provoke a post on this forum.
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>> It's come to something when the President of the USA going on TV suggesting injections
>> of disinfectant doesn't even provoke a post on this forum.
>>
Too busy discussing the merits of cc and bcc in business emails:-)
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"Too busy discussing the merits of cc and bcc in business emails:-)"
I can't wait 'til we move on to - "coloured paperclips - are they a waste of paint?". Such are the joys of office life.
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>> "Too busy discussing the merits of cc and bcc in business emails:-)"
>>
>> I can't wait 'til we move on to - "coloured paperclips - are they a
>> waste of paint?". Such are the joys of office life.
>>
Just don’t go for dog bone shaped paper clips...
Sort of NSFW
tinyurl.com/ybdso836
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>> Sort of NSFW
>>
>> tinyurl.com/ybdso836
You wait, we haven't done staples or staplers yet.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 24 Apr 20 at 19:38
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"It's come to something when the President of the USA going on TV suggesting injections of disinfectant doesn't even provoke a post on this forum."
Trump has lowered the bar of political discourse so far that no-one thinks that his latest rambling press conference, complete with idiotic medical advice from a self-proclaimed, much-loved expert in Absolutely Everything merits a reaction.
Put simply - what else do you expect from Trump?
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>>Put simply - what else do you expect from Trump?
>>
Much more of the same as November approaches.
The panic has really set in now the "numbers " have dropped off the bottom of the graphs.
So lets distract everyone and sue the papers.
nypost.com/2020/03/03/trump-campaign-sues-the-washington-post-millions-of-dollars-for-libel/
Meanwhile
The Washington Post indicates he has made 18000 false or misleading claims
The Post reports that his 1,170 days in office up to 3 April, President Donald Trump has made an average of 15 false or misleading claims every single day. That number has jumped to 23 per day during the period between this fact check and the last one.
www.politicususa.com/2020/04/14/trump-has-made-18000-false-or-misleading-since-coming-to-office-washington-post-says.html
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I didn't hear the Trump disinfectant comment but I assumed it was a jokey one taken out of context by the po-faced. I thought he said it after a science person said disinfectant and light were two things which kill the virus.
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>> I didn't hear the Trump disinfectant comment but I assumed it was a jokey one
>> taken out of context by the po-faced.
>>
Unfortunately not!
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>> I didn't hear the Trump disinfectant comment but I assumed it was a jokey one
>> taken out of context by the po-faced. I thought he said it after a science
>> person said disinfectant and light were two things which kill the virus.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52407177
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52407177
(Trump on disinfectant).
He actually thinks he's making a clever suggestion to the experts. I have never seen a more extreme case of Dunning-Kruger effect (too dumb to know you're dumb).
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Trump is, of course, absolutely correct - after a generous injection of Jeyes Fluid, you won't have to worry about coronavirus.
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Having now been rather forthrightly advised not to inject disinfectant, the people of Barnsley have just asked whether they can continue drinking it, like they always have.
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It is of course a well known fact that drinking Harpic can send you clean round the bend.
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Although you may feel rather flushed
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Some interesting points in this piece ....
thecritic.co.uk/its-hurting-but-its-just-not-working/
I nod my head at point 4 in particular regarding testing. Back in the early volumes of this thread, I was railing against the 'test, test, test' mantra devoured and frequently regurgitated by the meeja.
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>> The Guardian's ever brilliant Steve Bell:
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2020/apr/23/steve-bell-trump-coronavirus-drug-backdown-cartoon
>>
Other than the pun on "Mary Poppins" I don't see what's even amusing, never mind brilliant. I am quite open to the idea that I've missed the point.
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Words in the balloons fit the tune for supercalifragislisticexpialidoxious. Not exactly a belly laugh but a good lampoon.
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>> Words in the balloons fit the tune for supercalifragislisticexpialidoxious. Not exactly a belly laugh but
>> a good lampoon.
>>
Ohhhhh. I totally missed that. Thanks.
Slightly better than I thought then.
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>> Other than the pun on "Mary Poppins" I don't see what's even amusing, never mind
>> brilliant. I am quite open to the idea that I've missed the point.
Its fairly amusing ridicule, but I agree that the subject is not in the least bit amusing. Its really rather frightening.
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And this afternoon the gypsies turned up. Camped by the side of the road, congregating in a group, already a confirmed report of thieving. Appleby Horse Fair cancelled this year. I wish it were cancelled forever.
Several cyclists have been fined after being stopped by the police, and front page headlines in our local rag, the Craven Herald, emphasising the stay at home message, don’t visit the Dales, get orf our land blah blah.
Good luck trying to fine the do as you likeys.
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Perhaps tired of waiting for the government to make up its mind, the British public has decided to end being locked-down, or so might assume from local behaviour. There were several picnic parties in our local park on Friday, one of 7 people in a huddle and a group of blokes standing close together to enjoy lager and smokes. There was a dramatic increase in traffic. Nearby Broadstone high street was heaving with people, packed close on the pavements.
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It's been publicised that peak deaths were on around 9th/10th April so some people are acting as if the battle's won and it will only go down from here.
Problem is 98% of people haven't had SARS-CoV-2 so if we were to drop all the anti-infection measures we'd be back at square one, albeit with deeper health resources.
Anti-infection measures are needed for months, maybe a year. I'm expecting changes to lockdown to allow more economic activity but some existing measures to stay in force and new measures to be added.
For example in Germany, where they have been very successful, I believe mask-wearing has just been made mandatory.
The 'problem people', as in the US where they are far more numerous, are the ones who have failed to register that it is not a choice solely for them - people will and have died as a result of others wilfully not complying with infection controls - the only debatable aspect of that is how many. That applies also of course to anti-vaxxers.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sun 26 Apr 20 at 09:56
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>> Problem is 98% of people haven't had SARS-CoV-2 so if we were to drop all
>> the anti-infection measures we'd be back at square one, albeit with deeper health resources.
You dont know that and its probably very wide of the mark. Apparently New York did a pretty comprehensive but random testing of districts and came up with a figure of 21% infected 98% of whom were very mild or asymptomatic
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>>
>> >> Problem is 98% of people haven't had SARS-CoV-2
>> You don't know that and its probably very wide of the mark.
That's true, I cocked up a fag packet calculation but it seems likely it's north of 90% so I think the point probably stands.
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The 'problem people', as in the US where they are far more numerous, are the ones who have failed to register that it is not a choice solely for them - people will and have died as a result of others wilfully not complying with infection controls - the only debatable aspect of that is how many. That applies also of course to anti-vaxxers.
Long term lockdown measures are simply unachievable in a free western economy. The people simply wont tolerate it,* and for that you can place the blame firmly on the Press. The population will simply get fatality fatigue, 1000 deaths a day will become the new norm.
Take Germany, despite their actions being a "success", their infection rates were broadly similar to the big 4, UK, France, Spain, Italy. The difference in Germany is the lower death rate, due in no small part to the massive medical overcapacity,
*In the UK the police largely work due to general community support. Lose that and our low ratio of police will simply be overwhelmed and cease to function.
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>>The difference in Germany is the lower death rate, due in no small part to the massive medical overcapacity.
A larger effect is more tests done on symptomatic people who aren't key workers or in hospital.
This means there are more proven cases per fatality compared to the UK where tests are pretty much being done on hospitalised patients only.
All the fancy ITU in the world doesn't save the fubared from dying.
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The 'problem people', as in the US where they are far more numerous, are the
>> ones who have failed to register that it is not a choice solely for them
>> - people will and have died as a result of others wilfully not complying with
>> infection controls - the only debatable aspect of that is how many. That applies also
>> of course to anti-vaxxers.
>>
All depends on where they live, if you're in a flyover state then it's all much a do about nothing. They've not really had any cases at all, NY etc very different of course.
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I too think the lockdown is starting to break down, slowly, and I think its now semi intentional. Traffic is increasing, people are now starting to meet in small groups, albeit with some semi social distancing. We appear to be coping at a hospital level, deaths and infections seem to have levelled out, so I suspect gov has deliberately eased off the dire warnings a bit to see what happens. If it goes TU they can blame us
Next step apparently is "safe clustering" . Having a group of 10 virus safe friends/family who socialise together,
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>> Next step apparently is "safe clustering" . Having a group of 10 virus safe friends/family
>> who socialise together,
The exclusive "10 people bubble" is far too difficult a concept for the general public to understand.
Somebody I spoke with yesterday had already worked out who they will have in their bubble and they obviously didn't understand that none of their bubble friends could be in any other bubbles.
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Like manatee, I can't see how the safe clustering thing would work given the levels of intelligence that apply in some parts of the population.
It's a promising parlour game meantime, naming your nine other group members. Hours of lockdown fun.
Meanwhile I became a first time grandad late last night. All well but we won't see him in the flesh for some weeks. NHS online guidance for pregnant women is plentiful as a vulnerable group but there is little about the position after giving birth. Hopefully it will be possible to see him when the general position changes rather than wait even longer. Maybe our daughter will be given more guidance when they discharge her later today.
Last edited by: martin aston on Sun 26 Apr 20 at 10:38
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>> Like manatee, I can't see how the safe clustering thing would work given the levels
>> of intelligence that apply in some parts of the population.
>>
>>
I think the government know that plenty won't understand or just CBA. That'll be 'priced' into their assessment of it, should it come to pass. It's not perfect but they have to have some sort of stepping stone between this and normal.
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They also have to get the economy back to work. The money pit isn't bottomless!! Most people have the right concept when it comes to social distancing even though mistakes will occur due to lack of concentration (which I see on my walks). Reputable companies will be ultra cautious and strict about enforcing it I suspect, for fear of being sued.
On a happier note, big congrats to Aston Martin on becoming a grandfather!!!
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"On a happier note, big congrats to Aston Martin on becoming a grandfather!!!"
Yep, congrats, MA. I know that it isn't the same, but WhatsApp, Zoom etc are a big help. The main thing, of course, is to know that they are safe.
Last edited by: Haywain on Sun 26 Apr 20 at 12:37
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12 days ago a friend of mine died of Covid-19. 55 years old with some possible medical history meaning he was vaguely vulnerable. But... chances are he caught the virus at a wedding about the middle of March. The virus was known about and people socially distanced a bit but lots of people caught the virus, it is thought from one person up from London who was not symptomatic until half way through the evening. He is a doctor as is his mother-in-law. They conferred about him not feeling well and he headed back down the London immediately, but not before infecting his uncle, aunt, other cousins, parents-in-law and almost certainly my friend.
So many people are still ignoring the rule to avoid groups of people.
Mind you, last night it was discovered that an Israeli working in the US had flown from New York to Tel Aviv knowing he had the virus but did not tell anyone. The Israelis discovered when his wife rang the authorities to ask what her husband should do when he arrived. The 50 people on the flight have been tested (and sent to quarantine as would have happened anyway) but he will be arrested once he comes out of quarantine and if someone dies from the flight charged with manslaughter.
He flew because he did not have health cover for the US, despite working there. The Americans has rescinded his work permit. Stupid man...
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>> but he will be arrested once
>> he comes out of quarantine and if someone dies from the flight charged with manslaughter.
>>
How will the authorities be able to prove that he infected the others on the flight and that they were not infected by others just before they boarded the flight?
Last edited by: zippy on Sun 26 Apr 20 at 19:07
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And though I think there is such a law in Scotland, England and Wales don't have Reckless Endangerment. Which is a pity really, since it'd fit well and is probably generally needed, not just with COVID-19.
What about laws around AIDS? I'm sure I recall people being prosecuted for knowingly being HIV+ and having sex with unknowing partners who later tested positive. What law was used for that?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 26 Apr 20 at 19:29
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> What about laws around AIDS? I'm sure I recall people being prosecuted for knowingly being
>> HIV+ and having sex with unknowing partners who later tested positive. What law was used
>> for that?
>>
I think it was some sort of assault?
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>>
>> I think it was some sort of assault?
>>
GBH (Offences against the Person Act)
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Wouldn't they have to 100% tie the infector to the infectee?
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>> Wouldn't they have to 100% tie the infector to the infectee?
>>
They'd have to prove it "Beyond reasonable doubt", which would be very difficult with Covid 19.
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...I don't think it would be a good bet with Covid-19, but that's what the Aids prosecutions were brought under.
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Surely two very different methods of transmission, HIV being close personal contact which would be easier to prove who might have passed it on.
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>> Surely two very different methods of transmission, HIV being close personal contact .....
...otherwise prosecutable as "going equipped"... ;-)
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Contravirus Volume 14 - tyrednemotional
