Last night I watched three documentaries/ dramas about 9/11. This was no exception as I've probably seen every one made since that date. The professional and amateur footage as well as the fringe "conspiracy" theory films that pervade the internet.
This anniversary was no exception with minimal additional new accounts and footage across terrestrial and satellite channels intermingled with previous interview stories and archive film. For years I have been interested and enthralled by the filmwork, the collapse and accounts of those involved, survived or were bereaved.
This event is always marked with reverence as seen on the news, but is it time to let go from the documentary aspect?
I would hope the yearly hunger by TV companies for transmitting the already worn footage will lessen after the 10th. anniversary. Frankly I'm tired of it now. The shock of witnessing it live on TV, the sympathy for those that died and those left bereaved had a profound effect on me. Especially for colleagues in the NY fire department, I could empathize with.
I have seen every aspect/angle of this attack through the eyes of witnesses, emergency workers and the relatives and the all encompassing film footage. My thoughts are with them at this time. It is a time for private thoughts.
Is it now time to stop this annual film feste?
Yes report it as you would any anniversary of a happening on this scale and commemorate it at ground zero.Surely there is nothing left to show or comment on documentary wise. It must open "wounds" for those involved to see these images every year. What do others think.
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Are the current Battle of Britain documentaries and films any different ?
Isn't it right to remind ourselves why our troops were sent to Afghanistan ?
Last edited by: Pugugly on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 11:42
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PU with respect, I was looking for comments on 9/11. If you wish to start a thread on other parts of history, feel free.
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No I don't want to start a thread on the BoB but we are commemorating the 70th Anniversary of the battle this year and we are reminded of it in the media (quite rightly) - the whole reason for going to Afghanistan was as a response to 9/11 - my argument is that America is as entitled to remember 9/11 a short 9 years on as we are to remember significant events in the history of our country. Even more so that we've been at war as a consequence to 9/11 for the last 9 years. It's easy to opt out of anything to do with 9/11 by not reading or watching anything linked to it.
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I was sitting with friends this weekend who got married two days before 9/11. I was Master of Ceremonies.
I looked at my watch, saw the date and said "isn't it your 9th anniversary?". Yes they said, so I was confused why all the hoo haa about 9/11 this year. Why not wait till the 10th anniversary and then be done with it, other than occasional mentions?
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There's a whole debate in the why's and wherefore's of 9/11, whether we like it or not we are in a state of war that as usual politicians by their decisions have caused, and as usual are doing very nicely out of instead of doing time.
No doubt many of the programs/documentaries are made for genuine reasons, but some will be for reasons of propaganda.
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I couldn't work out why the ninth anniversary was being seen as so important.
As regards all the programmes, I think that's a result of the multi-channel media environment as much as anything else.
There is acres of space in which to show this stuff, and the OP concedes he has lapped up most of it.
I've only watched one programme, which I enjoyed, so it's not been overkill to me.
It's been said many times, but it's true - there's an 'off' button.
And it's not as if you have to go without television entertainment, there's also a 'channel change' button, which gives you access to any number of programmes which are not about 9/11.
Last edited by: Iffy on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 12:16
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Perhaps it's a case of what should be remembered, which includes the consequences of not maintaining proper foreign relations in the first place. As with medicine, prevention is better than cure.
The Florida pastor, who had hatched a plan to commemorate the 9/11 tragedy by burning the Koran and causing another one, has thankfully been dissuaded from that course.
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I've been drawn to a couple of the documentaries... mainly as I'm very interested in the actions of people in such a crisis where huge events are beyond their control.
Remember well the day it happened and getting a post deleted on HJ where I broadly said I'd been worried for a time that Bush's posturing on the world stage was a dangerous game and perhaps tipped the decision for those responsible to attempt such attacks.
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...and getting a post deleted on HJ...
Ah, the bad old days, everyone wants to talk about the bad old days.
The winters were colder, the summers were wetter....
Last edited by: Iffy on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 14:09
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>>>the summers were wetter
Funny.... I remember the old days as when it was sunny every day from May to Sept and you never needed a coat.
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>>I remember the old days as when it was sunny every day from May to Sept and you never needed a coat.<<
Yeah, but you were younger then effendi and didn't feel the cold so much :)
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>> ...and getting a post deleted on HJ...
>>
>> Ah, the bad old days, everyone wants to talk about the bad old days.
>>
>> The winters were colder, the summers were wetter....
>>
Gladys Knight?
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I remember 9-11, I was at a conference, and they stopped it to show the planes hitting the buildings.
I seriously thought then, that George Bush was unstable enough to push the button and unleash a global nuclear war.
The Americans, however, Love their aniversaries, and they revel, sickeningly in my view, in the flag waving, national anthems, and hand on heart star spangled banner singing.
Such an insular race, they little or no concept on how to use world leadership for the good of all.
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>>
>> The Americans, however, Love their aniversaries, and they revel, sickeningly in my view, in the
>> flag waving, national anthems, and hand on heart star spangled banner singing.
>>
>> Such an insular race, they little or no concept on how to use world leadership
>> for the good of all.
>>
What a thoroughly offensive post.
Does that extend to the relatives of the few thousand US victims!
I have family in the US, we could learn a lot from the way ordinary US citizens are and the way they take pride in their country.
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Its not at all offensive.
We could learn not much from the americans about way of life. The place breeds more gun crazy religeous zealots than anything the Ayatolla can produce.
Learn from a country where racism is still rife and promoted by certain states?
Learn from a country that bans books about darwins theory of evolution.
Learn from a country that has deamonised someone who wants to bring a basic level of healthcare
Learn from a country that invaded another for no good reason and dragged us into its greedy mire.
Learn from a country where a guy who wants to burn copies of the koran?
Learn from a country that has obscenely warped one of its constitutional rights into the right to carry guns so they can routinely massacre each other?
I am all for national pride and am proud of where I live, but the blood on one hand and the other on your heart while you sing a song?
Thoroughly offensive? dont make me laugh.
Last edited by: Zero on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 19:36
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...Thoroughly offensive? dont make me laugh...
Zero,
Where are you going on your next holiday?
If it's where I think it is, you ought to be careful about posts like that.
Likely to cause the old Fish Tanks to have a sense of humour failure.
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And there is another thing. British people, with morals that make Americans look like the spawn of satan, are treated like illegal alliens.
I shall probably be forcibly expatriated out there for treason. I wont have to pay to get there.
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+ 1 to Zero's post; my own views on the US succinctly summarised. The right to bear arms is, constitutionally, set in the context of a nation requiring a militia for its defence.
The Swiss do it properly and manage not to shoot each other.
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>> + 1 to Zero's post; my own views on the US succinctly summarised.
Wow. You condemn a whole nation, based on - what?
Zero, during your forthcoming travels through California, Nevada and Arizona, can you aim to find out why what you say about Americans might be true. Please post back to say if you were able to find any justifiable reason at all why US citizens may be insular.
>> The Swiss do it properly and manage not to shoot each other.
>>
Could it possibly have anything to do with the founding history of the respective nations and their peoples?
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>> Zero, during your forthcoming travels through California, Nevada and Arizona, can you aim to find
>> out why what you say about Americans might be true. Please post back to say
>> if you were able to find any justifiable reason at all why US citizens may
>> be insular.
I have been many times. One only has to see the lack of World news in the media - Newspaper, TV, Radio to see that. To be fair its because the American people have no need to consider the world as it has no effect on them. Except when it comes to bite them on the asp aka 9-11.
The worse outcomeof 9-11 is the effect its had on the British Military. Forced to go to war that has no moral justification, not supported by the politicos that sent them there, its proud history dented, and unappreciated at home.
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>> Its not at all offensive.
>>
>> We could learn not much from the americans about way of life. The place breeds
>> more gun crazy religeous zealots than anything the Ayatolla can produce.
>>
>> Learn from a country where racism is still rife and promoted by certain states?
>>
>> Learn from a country that bans books about darwins theory of evolution.
>>
>> Learn from a country that has deamonised someone who wants to bring a basic level
>> of healthcare
>>
>> Learn from a country that invaded another for no good reason and dragged us into
>> its greedy mire.
>>
>> Learn from a country where a guy who wants to burn copies of the koran?
>>
>> Learn from a country that has obscenely warped one of its constitutional rights into the
>> right to carry guns so they can routinely massacre each other?
>>
>>
>> I am all for national pride and am proud of where I live, but the
>> blood on one hand and the other on your heart while you sing a song?
>>
>>
>> Thoroughly offensive? dont make me laugh.
>>
Absolutely pathetic. I could make a list twice as long as that for the UK. It doesn't make it representative of the country. More people smile, show respect to elders, treat you with kindness and go out of their way to help you than anything I have experienced in the UK. The kids over there always refered to me as 'sir' and my wife as 'ma'am'. There is still 'community' in the US, it is lacking here. Strangely, the town my relatives live in aren't all queueing to burn Korans and the children I meet over there know far more of world affairs than many of the cider swilling 'yoof' I have the misfortune to meet over here. You may not like their foreign policy, but the average citizen has as much influence on that as we had on Gordon Browns ability to count.
All you have managed to display is an ignorance and hostility that does you no credit whatsoever.
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Your are entitled to you opinion. You will note however I did not resort to calling you pathetic or ignorant. If you have a need to be called sir I can see why you chose your career.
Oh, And consider the fact that you dont have to go to work with an arsenal big enough to start a world war in your car.
Also ponder why so many of your trans atlantic co workers die in the course of duty.,
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 13 Sep 10 at 00:53
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>> Your are entitled to you opinion. You will note however I did not resort to
>> calling you pathetic or ignorant. If you have a need to be called sir I
>> can see why you chose your career.
>>
>> Oh, And consider the fact that you dont have to go to work with an
>> arsenal big enough to start a world war in your car.
>>
>> Also ponder why so many of your trans atlantic co workers die in the course
>> of duty.,
>>
You have a unique ability of avoiding the content of a post a twisting the rest to fit your own agenda. I raise the point about 'sir' and 'ma'am' to demonstrate the children in the US are brought up to repsect their elders. They call their parents, their teachers and FRIENDS of their parents by the term. Of course, you then bring my profession into it. How predictable.
And for info. I spent many years going to work and driving around with an 'arsenal' in my car. I pointed it at people many times. One of my colleagues was shot and killed. One was stabbed only a few weeks ago. It's not confined to the US.
Last edited by: VxFan on Mon 13 Sep 10 at 10:20
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I think much of what Zero says about Americans is right.
Where we disagree is I don't have a problem with most of it.:)
As regards American politeness, I experienced this myself earlier this year.
During my little tour around Scotland, I came across an American couple who were attempting to top up the oil in their hired A-class Merc - the light had come on.
Exercising my licence to interfere - as ever - I helped them get the bonnet open and find the oil filler.
Throughout the encounter the American guy, who was older than me, respectfully called me 'sir' time and time again.
I've also never been thanked so many times and so effusively.
His wife didn't get out of the car or make any effort to speak.
I got the impression she was not being unfriendly, but 'knew her place'.
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>> You have a unique ability of avoiding the content of a post a twisting the
>> rest to fit your own agenda. I raise the point about 'sir' and 'ma'am' to
>> demonstrate the children in the US are brought up to repsect their elders.
And you, sir, have a view of apple pie ma and pa middle class america, and a unique inability to see the what the rest of US society is like. The chronically poor and under priveleged, the corrupt ruling classes, The poor of New Orelans who have been abandoned in the wake of hurricane katrina, the fear that if you loose your job you have NO safety net for basic human well being, the arrogance that everything they do is right without any thought.
I was merely pointing out, that *as a nation* and with respect to its place in the world they have little to be proud of. The hand on heart is a hollow and ignorant gesture.
Now how was that offensive? was it worthy of the tirade of abuse and insults addressed at me?
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 13 Sep 10 at 10:05
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It was hardly a tirade Zero. Your wit brings a lot to this site but the comment about MLC's choice of career was, IMHO, OTT.
On the subject to hand this is not about any American we may have met personally. It's about a nation that puts itself forward as the world's policeman and moral champion and the sort of example it actually sets to the poor and downtrodden.
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>> It was hardly a tirade Zero. Your wit brings a lot to this site but
>> the comment about MLC's choice of career was, IMHO, OTT.
It was, for which I applogise to the poster.
He will never convince me, nor I him. Its probably best left at this point.
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>> I was merely pointing out, that *as a nation* and with respect to its place
>> in the world they have little to be proud of.
Would you like to take a guess at which country is far and away the biggest contributor of overseas aid. (Regardless of politics or creed). Like to have a guess who supplies the most helicopters during disasters. Go on...you'll manage it if you really try.
Last edited by: midlifecrisis on Mon 13 Sep 10 at 14:47
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Hi ml, I don't want to stand in the middle of the tennis match you're having with Z BUT, the US is a rather large country. You're not seriously suggesting that little Britain contribute as many helicopters or aid to, say, Pakistan, as the US?
Some of the aid is surely politically motivated, such as (ahem) assisting the tracking down of Latin American drugs barons. Or even supporting a political party the US approves of. Or bringing down one they don't. All paid for by "overseas aid".
I wonder how it pans out v GDP or per capita income.
John
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you really just dont get it do you.
That comment just about sums up the US. Money. They think it will fix - and buy them anything.
I'll wager you were in or have friends in the UK armed forces. I also wager that many of them served in Northern Ireland. Tell me who paid for the bullets that killed them.
your friends.
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>> you really just dont get it do you.
>>
>> That comment just about sums up the US. Money. They think it will fix -
>> and buy them anything.
>>
>> I'll wager you were in or have friends in the UK armed forces. I also
>> wager that many of them served in Northern Ireland. Tell me who paid for the
>> bullets that killed them.
>>
>> your friends.
You think the UK aid budget is all about 'helping' people. Every country uses aome of it's aid as a form of gaining influence. Equally, much of it is given because it's necessary. You demonise everything to do with the US. My 'friends' in the US donate money and hold fund raising events because they feel it's the right thing to do. I'm sure the little old lady on the corner of the street isn't thinking about what she's getting out of it.
As for Northern Ireland. There are 310 million people in the US. So all were responsible for deaths in Northern Ireland? As there are fund raisers in the UK for Islamic terrorism, I guess that makes you partly responsible for 9/11 as well.
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Let us agree to disagree as this could go on for ages.
You think they are wonderful, I think they are hypocritcal and self centred.
Ok?
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...Gladys Knight?...
Martin,
Yes, that's who I was alluding to.
I think she spoke the 'winters and summers' lyrics before launching into the song.
I've struggled to find the lyrics of her version, but this is how Barbara Streisand did it:
www.lyricsfreak.com/b/barbra+streisand/way+we+were_20013256.htm
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As if by magic
The words and the music ala Gladys Knight.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlg2svEAh-w&feature=related
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...The words and the music ala Gladys Knight...
Thanks, Zero.
I've never been much good at searching youtube.
Listening to the song again, I can't decide if it's mawkish sentimental claptrap, or a nicely rendered version of a good ballad.
I'm leaning towards the former.
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If you cut the cringecrap out at the begining, its a good song and she has a great voice.
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>> ...and getting a post deleted on HJ...
I have had a post deleted on here. Now that is something to aspire to.
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I remember it well. Someone told me a plane had run into a skyscraper in New York. I thought, Cessna, Empire State, perhaps a dozen dead. When I saw the full scale of the thing, and the details had come out, my first thought more or less was: what a helluva black eye, what a resounding success for the carphounds... that'll make people think, but to very little practical purpose.
And so it has turned out. Idiocy still rules on all sides. What a sewer the world still is.
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I was in the deep black bunker that was my office at the time - went out in the afternoon and listened to the excellent coverage from Steve Evans (who was in one of the towers at the time) on BBC R4 - rolling news until 7.02pm when the Archers was run - dunno if it was significant but it was later revealed that RN's Missile boats tuned in to listen for the Archers every day - if they didn't hear it they assumed the worse and launched, might be a myth.
Last edited by: Pugugly on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 19:30
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...if they didn't hear it they assumed the worse and launched, might be a myth...
One would hope it is a myth, although several of the Americans involved at the top - Condoleeza Rice, Bush's chief of staff, the senior air traffic control guy - have since admitted their communications systems blew up within a few minutes of the first plane crash.
Last edited by: Iffy on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 19:30
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Its mostly a myth, I understand the British SSBN's use ELF (extra low frequency) radio to recieve the launch codes.
The lack of the archers wouldnt give the target identifiers.
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>> ...if they didn't hear it they assumed the worse and launched, might be a myth...
>>
>> One would hope it is a myth, although several of the Americans involved at the
>> top - Condoleeza Rice, Bush's chief of staff, the senior air traffic control guy -
>> have since admitted their communications systems blew up within a few minutes of the first
>> plane crash.
The first casualty of war is all the pre war plans and systems.
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Was sitting in my office off Kingsway working on applications from solicitors who wanted accreditation for work we had on offer. Bored stiff. Boss's wife phoned to tell him news; like AC I thought Cessna, or at worst some commuter type plane. No internet in those days save for a dial up connection so it was finding out who might have a radio or trying to tune the telly in training using a set top aerial. No more work done for sure.
Later in the day people were crowded round Berrys TV shop and one of the banks that had a news feed in the counter area.
Ranks along with Diana's death as the 'JFK' moment for our generation.
Tony, who worked on the next bank of desks, had left for the USA earlier in the day - he spent most of his break at Gander.
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Myself and Mrs RR were in the car when Steve Wright broke the news on his afternoon show, all the regular features were cancelled to bring news updates as they came in. When we got home I alternated between watching it on Sky News and joining in the fast moving thread about it on HJ.
Funny enough, that was in the early days of the forum and IIRC it was that event that really helped to develop the community spirit over there that lasted till we all defected to here.
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I hear what you're saying Cpt but you didn't have to watch three documentaries on the same subject in one night.
JH
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I did, to see if there was anything new or different. Sadly not.
I'm not saying we should stop remembering, I just find the never ending loop of "new" documentaries at this time go over the same ground, and maybe its time to stop.
At the time on that day I was officer in charge at Hayes fire station close to Heathrow. I saw the footage live on TV and called the rest of the watch in to view. We were speechless.
At that time UK airspace was closed and I honestly thought that the same was going to happen here as a co-ordinated attack on the west.
Being the station bordering Heathrow my mind raced through what might happen there or if a plane was targeted into Canary Wharf, and how knowing that colleagues across the pond must have lost there lives when the towers collapsed, it focused my and the others as to how we would handle such a disaster.
In much the same way, procedurally.
It was a anxious few hours until the end of that shift, and I will never forget.
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No-one here and considered the root cause of this.
What was the seed the germinated into people prepred to kill 3.5k innocent non combative members of the public.
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I'm with Zero on this, I find the American govt the most dangerous in the world.
Remind me how much one of their general elections cost?
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Cpt Flack, are you basically saying its time to stop all these programmes and documentaries that you watch every year????
Its like the Top Gear opponents who claim it is crap at the same time as its viewing figures increase!!
Anyway when the planes hit the WTC I was sitting in the staff canteen of Safeway preparing in between preparing for a visit by our then CEO Carlos Criadez Perez who was coming on the 12th. As a result of these attacks, he did not come due to the fears of flying in the immediate aftermath.
Are there not still varying stories about the plane hits even now especially the one into the Pentagon? Are there not claims that the Americans shot it down?
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I was working in Bellshill McDonalds and we pretty much all stopped working and went and sat in the front to watch the telly all day.
Rare because we weren't really allowed to sit out front.
Afterwards everyone noticed how we didn't get a lunch hour rush that day either (probs just as well!).
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I was in London a few days later in a Conference, there was an evacuation at the venue "white powder" found. A very quiet and odd place it was there was the sound of a propeller riven aircraft endlessly circling a very quiet city. I went to see Eric Sykes in a farce in the Strand, there were about forty of us there including some Americans......flew to Malta a couple of days later and that was a scary experience...
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I think the OP is basically about right. Of course the event should be remembered and the dead mourned. In another 8 weeks we will have our own festival of remembrance together with ceremonies at the Cenotaph and war memorials across the country. I might even go to church to have my tears jerked by 'O Valiant Hearts' and the reading of the names of the village's dead.
But that's no need for the running of a series of anniversary programmes, docu-dramas and god knows what else on the telly every sodding year. Marking an historic event at 10 year intervals is something different. I'm looking forward to the dramatisation of Geoffrey Wellum's 'First Light' on the BBC tomorrow because I've read the book and the BoB is a bit oh history in which I have particular interest. I don't expect, save for the passing of the few remaining pilots, that we will see another 'telly fest' on the subject until 2020 or even 2040.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sun 12 Sep 10 at 21:35
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Has anyone noticed the remarkable similarity between the OP and "Ben10" on the other forum? I wonder if by any chance they are related.
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Well I was going to reply to Ben saying the same as I did here but when I signed in with my details it tells me they aren't valid anymore. So bye bye HJ and your blinking pop ups!
Cpt Ben got a better response here though....
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It really is a "JFK" moment. SWMBO and I both had the day off. I'd been out to the local shops to buy some milk and walked back in the door to find her sitting on the sofa in the lounge in tears. It didn't even occur to me to look at the TV screen. She then told me what had happened and I looked at the telly for the first time, which was showing the North tower on fire, and the headline "PLANE CRASHES INTO WORLD TRADE CENTRE". Like many others, my first thought was that it was an accident, but when we saw the second plane go in a few minutes later, it was chilling. The first thing that occurred to me was to wonder how many other planes were in the air and heading for targets at that time, and whether the UK would be on the hit list. At the time I lived 3 miles from Heathrow Airport.
I've read most of the conspiracy theories, and yes, the US government's reaction (or lack of) as the events unfolded was somewhat odd, but these were unprecedented events, which couldn't have been foreseen.
The most remarkable achievement of the Bush adminstration over the following months was its squandering and nullification of the very real outpouring of sympathy, grief and solidarity from governments all over the world. Far from embracing its friends and allies, and taking a long hard look at the way it conducted itself, it shut itself even tighter from the rest of the world, built even more walls, and ramped up its already aggressive foreign policy to new levels.
Of course government policy cannot be dictated by terrorists, and terrorism can never be justified, but you would have thought it would have occurred to someone, somewhere in the corridors of power to think, even for a minute "why did this happen?"
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Apropos "the day" and shortly afterwards and thinking of mawkish sentimentality and people's wish to be offended, I received a formal complaint from a customer about one of my guys. He had reset a user's pw as she had forgotten it (normally a help desk job, can't think how we got dragged into it) and he had included the date as part of the new pw, including "911", writing the date "backwards", as you do when you're feeding them computer thingies. There are just some people who WANT to be offended /upset etc.
Oh, and I walked past a line of firemen in Cornwall collecting for the dead firemen in the US. I reckoned it was the US and they'd be insured up their eyeballs. From subsequent reports it seems I did the right thing.
I'm probably a bad person... :-)
John
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John,
You're probably not a bad person !
As I say to people "It's not that that makes me a bad person !"
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"probably". Gee thanks PU! :-) (Off stage sound of leg being pulled).
John
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I wish it was called something more descriptive, it's confusing. What when a number of disasters are known by an very ambiguous date reference? No-one will know what's being talked of.
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..."why did this happen?"...
Because of the unjustified actions of a small number of mis-guided brainwashed zealots who were willing to become mass-murderers?
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Who you talking about the terrorists or the Americans ?
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I have now had two replies to my post that have fanny adams to do with its content.
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Sorry FT, I was responsible I was teasing Iffy after his reply. You're right I was struggling to think of anything in British History defined in the way that the attacks on the WTC have i.e. by date other than something like 1066 etc....I always assumed that 9/11 was adopted by the media and subsequently by the public and it sort of entered the collective surrounding the event, almost a shorthand - Pearl Harbor carries a similar sort of evocation as does D-Day - I suppose it became a sort of short hand for "the attacks on the World Trade Centre" who knows ?
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>> a similar sort of evocation as does D-Day - I suppose it became a sort
>> of short hand for "the attacks on the World Trade Centre" who knows ?
The nearest we have is the use of the term "D-Day 6th June" or "the 14-18 war"
Americans dont normally celebrate by calling events by dates. 4th July may be one, but few others, as they have names.
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>> Because of the unjustified actions of a small number of mis-guided brainwashed zealots who were
>> willing to become mass-murderers?
I was thinking more of the sentiment and motivation behind it. I agree it was mass murder, and can never be justified, and neither was I trying to do so.
However, by the same token, the 100,000 odd (and counting) innocent civilians killed in Iraq as a direct result of US foreign policy didn't deserve to die either.
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It will become even more confusing and unmemorable if the dating practice continues, because of the difference between the US and UK systems.
9/11 in American is 11 September, in English it would be 9 November.
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Colin Powell was interviewed on the PM programme (I think it was Eddie Mair) Asked how many Iraqi Civilians had died as a result of the war Powell replied "a good number" Mair as quick as a flash asked "What's a good number ?" no reply was the answer.
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I wonder how many Iraqis would have died under the regime of Saddam had it continued?
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no idea, but at least it was (in relative terms) fairly stable
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>> no idea, but at least it was (in relative terms) fairly stable
I agree. And people could go about their daily business, travel to work or school, and go to the local market or shops without fear of being blown up.
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Best analogy I've seen for Iraq under Hussain likens it to a street under the ruthless control of a crime family. As long as you knew your place and didn't pee on the bosses manor you were pretty safe - protected indeed.
Now he's gone all the wannabees are engaged in a turf war.
And at least the leccy and the water worked - quite astonishing that a nation with the size and expertise of the USA could net get the utilities up abd running again.
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Dunno difficult if not impossible to answer - His mistake was invading Kuwait which in turn was our mistake in being arrogant enough at the end of WW1 in drawing arbitrary lines in the sand and creating nations where they arguably didn't exist before.......Hussain (and I don't defend his ways in any shape or form) managed to draw Iraq into one secular state which more or less functioned. Where the Allies went wrong was in not deposing him in the first Gulf war - we had the moral high ground there and should have exploited it. The second Gulf war was at best ill-advised and seen in many quarters as being downright illegal - we were never going to win that whatever the outcome had been sadly it turned into an outright and horrendous mess and a lot of people have died because of it not only in Iraq. Reading a very good book on the Vietnam war at the moment - the author quotes the saying "grab them by the balls and their hearts and minds are sure to follow"....makes you think doesn;t it ?
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Agreed, we should have done the job right the first time round.
but then we all know invading Iraq was not for weapons of mass destruction.
Ah hem cough cough .... oil
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We have been here before;
1st Afghan war, 1839-42
2nd Afghan war 1878-1880
Invasion of Iraq 1922.
Why can't these people learn that the Briish way of life is what they need, and form a stable democratic government so that we don't have to go on invading them? :)
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They've learnt that the British way of life is what they need. That's why they're here!
John
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The British way of life is just what they don't want, why should we have the cheek to impose our values on other peoples ?
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Ann Coulter, the (in)famous American Conservative commentator wanted to go even further than imposing values. She came out with this gem in one of her columns on September 12th, 2001: "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity".
Of course, she's seen as a crackpot by most Americans, but it's scary to think that people like this exist.
It's a shame she's so evil / demented, as she is quite good looking. :-)
Last edited by: DP on Mon 13 Sep 10 at 15:37
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I'm not sure what the point is of this thread. Unless someone thinks they haven't had full value from the 15 minute arguement they paid for. The remark above could just as well be made regarding someone who has gained a position of influence in the Middle East. Though not the latter part of the comment course!
Fact is there are nutters wherever you go. The US has it's fair share. So understand that and be wary. And don't watch three documentaries on one subject in the same night, that's a bit obsessive.
John
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'I beg your bleedin pardon,'
Huffed Osama bin Laden,
But me and the lads was just going to rent a
Whole bleedin floor of the World Trade Center!'
(press release from a cave on the NW frontier dated Sept 12)
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I just can't see the connection between this 1 min. video ad and 9/11 and I've watched it 4 times,
I know I'm not the brightest fairy light on the tree but, am I missing somefink?
Sound on, click full screen icon ~ www.flickr.com/photos/43576259@N04/4988989491
This goes with the ad ~
Budweiser commercial re: 9-11, aired only ONCE! This is the commercial spot Budweiser produced after 9-11.
They only aired it once so as not to benefit financially from it - they just wanted to acknowledge the tragic event.
This is so consistent with a company who always does things with a ton of class!!
Can you imagine what the cost was considering production, air time, etc.?
Last edited by: Dog on Tue 14 Sep 10 at 09:29
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I think it is because the New York skyline has a glimpse of the Twin Towers?
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CORRECTION
I meant to say-
"I think it is because the New York skyline has a glimpse of where the Twin Towers were"
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"I just can't see the connection between this 1 min. video ad and 9/11 and I've watched it 4 times"
The point at which the horses "bow" at the buildings in the distance is where the Twin Towers stood. I.E. No more.
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>>>The point at which the horses "bow" at the buildings in the distance is where the Twin Towers stood.
Yep a dignified video. The Budweiser horses and the ads featuring them are well known in the USA... they represent the *good old days* and are often seen on a journey of some kind so a very fitting way to use them paying respect to a changed skyline.
Last edited by: Fenlander on Tue 14 Sep 10 at 10:08
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I have to say, the twin towers were pretty ugly.
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I thought they were very elegant. I ate in the Windows on the World several times in the 90s and I loved being up there. It was an odd feeling looking out of the window, down at New York, it looked like a flat car park from such a great height. I took a helicopter ride over them too.
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Thanks for replies re: the bud vid, I 'get the drift' now :)
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>> I thought they were very elegant.
I bet your kids did better with lego.
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9/11 - R.P.
