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More viral talk.
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Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 4 Apr 20 at 21:08
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52090441
Retailers being told selling Easter eggs is non-essential.
It's a tricky area but if a store is allowed (expected??) to open for the sale of essential goods then ought it also be allowed to sell other non-essential products which it would normally be expected to sell?
I would say yes, to enable the business owner to have a chance of covering his costs. But you have to consider that people may travel (unnecessarily) to the store to only by non-essential items, which would be undesirable.
And there are so many marginal goods. Are hobknobs essential? BBQ charcoal? Flowers, in a garage?
It's a shame common sense can't be used more...
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I’ve not visited any supermarkets since my return from Spain ( 14 days quarantine. Thanks Z) but when we were in lockdown over there I was told that only the food aisles were open. All others were cordoned off. Is the same true in our U.K. supermarkets? Not that I’ll be visiting any in the foreseeable..always hated shopping of any kind anyway.
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>> I’ve not visited any supermarkets since my return from Spain ( 14 days quarantine. Thanks
>> Z) but when we were in lockdown over there I was told that only the
>> food aisles were open. All others were cordoned off. Is the same true in our
>> U.K. supermarkets? Not that I’ll be visiting any in the foreseeable..always hated shopping of any
>> kind anyway.
Just been to Sainsburys to which I was admitted on one out/one in basis after standing in a snaking queue for 20minutes or so. Police called at one stage because one prospective customer kicked off at another. Couldn't tell what cause was but might have been standing too close and/or coughing.
Like (AFAIK) all UK supermarkets it was fully open but some aisles - eg tinned food - were empty in places. Managed nonetheless to get some tinned stuff to donate to the foodbank. Wine aisle surprisingly sparse but probably not a priority for re-stocking. Lots of non-essential stuff for sale including flowers, 101 varieties of gin etc etc.
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If other foodbanks are like ours, they're short on UHT Milk. Plenty of bog-rolls in ours, in fact more than we've had in the last 12 months !
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That's cuz no-one is buying them as they have run out of space!!
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>> I’ve not visited any supermarkets since my return from Spain ( 14 days quarantine. Thanks
>> Z)
WTF do I have to do with it?
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I wasn’t sure on the length of my quarantine period on returning from Spain. You advised 14 days. Not a problem at all for me. Better safe than sorry, and I think there is still debate over the incubation period, although in the majority of cases it seems to be 5 days before symptoms become evident.
Don’t take that attitude with me young man.
Stay healthy
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I wonder which 'officials' these are? Police maybe, now they have powers to goad us into an argument then lock us up.
Hyperbole of course. But Thames Valley Police are probably not alone in embellishing the 'rules' and then telling people what the government really meant.
Locally they have used FB to say that it is forbidden to drive somewhere to take exercise. The government FAQ says (my bold)
14. Can I drive to a national park or other green space to walk?
"We advise you to stay local and use open spaces near to your home where possible – do not travel unnecessarily.
You can still go to the park for outdoor exercise once a day but only by yourself or within your household, not in groups.
We ask you to keep 2 metres apart from others outside your household at all times when outdoors."
I quite understand that it would be a bad idea to drive to beauty spots etc because it would be like a bank holiday again; but some people round here live on roads without footpaths and driving a mile or two to a park might make sense for them.
I'm very happy for the police to deal with idiots but when they don't read the advice properly themselves they are making their own job harder because people will argue the toss.
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The legislation is, I think, clear enough. Food retailers can stay open, and the government has not said they can only sell essential goods. As you say, how would you define it? One persons luxury is another’s essential...
The government has also said there are only four reasons to leave your house. Shopping for essentials, exercise, medical need including assisting someone in the vulnerable category, and to go to work where you can’t work from home.
There’s nothing to stop you going shopping for essentials (whatever they are), and picking up something else while you’re there. It’s helping keep a level of economic activity which we need and which the government wants to encourage. The risk is in the going out in the first place, not what you buy. I’m pretty sure viruses don’t differentiate between someone buying an Easter egg and someone buying eggs...
The government has also explicitly said it does not want businesses to shut, apart from those on the list communicated. As usual, over zealous council and police staff are going beyond their remit. Perhaps these activities will be banned in the future, but they’re not at the moment. Police and Councils need to be held to account for their behaviours...they do not have carte blanche to ride roughshod over people and businesses, though I think too many of them relish the opportunity to!
Though, the police in particular have had little time to react to the rapid changes in legislation, so some short term confusion is to be expected. If it continues we’ll have a real problem with trust and compliance in the future I think, which isn’t good for any of us... There’s no need for the councils to rush into anything at all; after all, why suddenly change the habits of a lifetime ;)
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::Are hobknobs essential?
Of course they are, don´t ask such ridiculous questions.
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>> ::Are hobknobs essential?
>>
>> Of course they are, don´t ask such ridiculous questions.
>>
A colleague nearly died because of a hobnob.
Night out, a few too many. Went home. Felt peckish. Had a few hobnobs.
Was sick.
Nut in hobnob was razor sharp, came up and effectively split open his oesophagus.
Stomach acid everywhere and months in recovery.
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Somebody was asking about how the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme might work for agency employees. The latest guidance is explicit that it applies to people on agency contracts and flexible or zero hour contracts:
www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus-job-retention-scheme
Obviously though the agency has to be pro-active, furlough people and make a claim to HMG.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Mon 30 Mar 20 at 14:37
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I thought this was a new thread about a virus spread by a Nicaraguan rebel group.
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Easy Jet announced today that they're grounding their fleet 'for the duration'.
Looks as though quite a few machines will be stored at Southend. Seven currently airborne from either Glasgow or Edinburgh with destination SEN.
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Somebody has just mentioned to me that dozens of BA planes are parked up at Hurn.
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FFS.
Never mind offending their sensitivities with posts, we should be forcing them to work as porters in the nearest ICU/A&E for a month.
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With so many people at home, we here are now in the situation where going for a walk we will bump into more people than if we got into the car and drove somewhere quiet and went for a walk.
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Back to the statistics
www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Either some nations are incredibly good at controlling the number of cases and deaths, or they are just lying. I am inclined to think they are lying.
Nation...Population in million.....Deaths
France........65.........................3,024
Germany.....84...........................645
Italy...........60.......................11,591
Russia........146.............................9
Spain..........47.......................7,716
UK.............67........................1,408
Even allowing for all the statistical errors going, why has Russia had 9 deaths and Italy 11,591?
Anybody got a sensible explanation?
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I think UK is basically counting deaths of people who died in hospital after a positive test. Other countries will have different criteria.
I suspect that some countries are attributing deaths to other existing pathologies. If somebody has COPD and heart failure, and COVID-19 means he is too weakened to survive with low repiratory function and poor circulation, what killed him? In the sense that he wouldn't have died at that time without the COVID, it was COVID - but he only died because of the other diseases?
UK will be under-recording to the extent that people with symptoms just die of a heart attack or whatever. We will be over recording where the concurrent illnesses would have got them anyway.
From a distance, it's not about the number of deaths, it's about early death. In the long run the same number will die - most will have died a bit earlier, a smaller number much earlier.
Of course some will just be lying, if only by omission. It's hard to believe there is virtually no infection in Russia.
Last edited by: Manatee on Mon 30 Mar 20 at 23:11
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I remember years ago, as a day to day motorcycle rider in Brazil, that I couldn't understand how their motorcycle rider death on the raids could possibly be so low.
Then I found out that Ambulance drivers got paid according to how many people they picked up and did not get paid a bonus for picking up dead bodies.
At the same time the traffic police were targeted on reducing road deaths.
Consequently both Ambulance staff and traffic police were better off if the person wasn't dead. So, as is the way in Brazil, he wasn't.
Their death while under medical care statistics were horrendous though. So very many died in the ambulance. Whereas the UK, for example, was all about what caused their death, not when they actually died.
My somewhat convoluted point being, it is almost impossible to have figures counted by the same criteria all the way through the system and across countries. And that's even before you get to the level of Trump/Putin type truth bending.
I'd say that Spain, France, Italy, Germany and the UK are doing their best to count honestly within their own systems, standards and procedures - which will produce differences.
I should think Russia is swayed both by information control, and by the fact that information from the more remote parts takes a very long time to get through.
I shall be interested to see the figures after year or two, if I am lucky enough to be here to see them. Despite constant claims from everywhere that China is lying, I actually think they're probably not. I wonder if I shall be proven to be a fool.
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There's an article in The Spectator at the minute about how the UK counts. The author is not "on message" with the Government's view on the severity.
www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think
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>> There's an article in The Spectator at the minute about how the UK counts. The
>> author is not "on message" with the Government's view on the severity.
>>
>> www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think
>>
Yeah he is spot on, you wont know, at least for 24 months just how serious or deadly this thing was
problem is, because of all the precautions being taken at the moment, you wont know how deadly it could have been if left unchecked.
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>> There's an article in The Spectator at the minute about how the UK counts. The
>> author is not "on message" with the Government's view on the severity.
>>
>> www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think
I'd seen that article,which makes a perfectly valid point in a reasonably objective way - it doesn't say that COVID-19 isn't serious, it says we can't really know until we have all the facts. Unfortunately it has already been used to promote the idea that nCoronvirus is not serious and/or some sort of conspiracy is going on.
It has been pointed out to the conspiracy theorists that if it is in fact no more dangerous than seasonal flue that doesn't explain the virtual collapse of the healthcare system in northern Italy and elsewhere. That seems reasonable - clinicians certainly seem to think they are seeing something abnormal. But at the margin, a relatively small increase in the proportion of people visiting A&E or calling ambulances, can easily double or treble the load on hospitals. About 1 in every 1000 people visit an A&E unit every day. So an increase of 1 in 1000 brought about by fear that a bad cough and wheeze is a potentially fatal nCoronavirus infection is feasible - and would double the load.
I hope, and think it possible, that the truth is somewhere in between - it's bad, especially in terms of peak number of sick, but not as bad as we fear and as imperfect data suggest.
Never forget that more than one hospital trust in the past employed 'consultants' to come in and recode causes of death to hide literally hundreds of excess deaths.
Last edited by: Manatee on Tue 31 Mar 20 at 10:33
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BBC TV News is reporting from Moscow that Russia is in "lockdown". People have been told to isolate but have been told there is almost no infection in Russia suspect the government of some sort of cover up.
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As I recall Scotland's Independence budget was based upon oil at around $100 per barrel? AS a result of a price war, falling demand normally, and crashing demand because of Coronavirus it's now $23 per barrel they might think that a bullet has been dodged.
I wonder where that leaves Sturgeon and her insistence on second referendum.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 31 Mar 20 at 02:03
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Sorry, should have been on the motoring Thread, I think.
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Just received my fortnightly med supplies, surprised to see I have got my usual order of PPE! (6x boxes of latex gloves +4 boxes surgical face masks and 3x bottles of Purell h/cleanser). since CV outbreak, and hearing how short med staff are of PPE, I have reduced my usage of both gloves and masks to one of each per dialysis session. This has left me with a bit of a surplus, so I've just taken 3x boxes of gloves and two of face masks to our nearby care home, only to be told they didn't need them! they suggested the community hospital, once again they didn't need them either! but did want eye-protection which I don't have. In the end I took them to the Chemist who accepted them just in case they can't get any later in the crisis.
Never thought I'd have that much trouble giving them away!
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The daughter of an ex works in healthcare, visiting old folks, helping them dress, take meds etc.
I found an unused FFP2 mask in my garage...much inferior to FFP3 but it’s been posted to her by someone who needed to visit the P.O.
All face masks are in short supply I was told. I can manage with a scarf around my face when I finish my loft insulation later this week.
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I thought earlier about buying some face masks so had a browse around to see if they are considered worthwhile. Generally the answer is no. One reason was that it gets in through your eyes, not just your mouth/nose, another was that would not be a tight enough fit.
It was suggested that if you have the virus it might stop you spreading it quite so far and wide.
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devonite: Our local Costcutter has half a dozen boxes of latex gloves on the shelf.
I brought a dozen mechanics' nitrile gloves home from work when we closed down on Friday; I've used them all now (Tesco, Wilkinsons and a couple of errands for shielding friends). I specifically didn't buy a box from the shop just in case someone with greater needs required them; Based on your experience, if they're still in stock next week I think I will pick up a box.
Last edited by: Dave_ on Tue 31 Mar 20 at 21:31
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For the first time in I don't know how many years I have washed my car. I sometimes hose the mud and dirt off it, but this time I got out the car shampoo and properly washed and then dried it.
I thought you should know.
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...I'm only going to get worried when you wash the Nissan.....
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>>...I'm only going to get worried when you wash the Nissan.....
I cannot think how bad this would have to get to drive me to that level of desperate boredom.
Though I suppose I could do it with a brillo pad.
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I regularly wash my fleet, just use a cold water hose and a sponge and don't dry it. I suppose generally it'd not so dirty cos it gets done regularly (maybe weekly or monthly, depends how I feel/how dirty they are/how warm it is).
It does give you the chance to have a closer look at the car and make sure nothing is dropping off or needs attention. And it's quicker (and cheaper) than trudging down to the car wash - takes me no more than 15 - maybe even 10 - minutes for 2 cars.
And I sometimes get a small amount of satisfaction form doing it.
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In the Beeb live reporting
"Frontline NHS staff in the UK on visas will be given an automatic one-year extension to help the UK battle the coronavirus.
"Home Secretary Priti Patel said doctors, nurses and paramedics whose visas were due to run out before 1 October would be given the 12-month extension free of charge so they could “focus fully on combatting coronavirus and saving lives”.
"The new measure will apply to around 2,800 immigrants working in the health service, and will be extended to their family members “demonstrating how valued overseas NHS staff are to the UK”.
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Good.
I would go as far as to say that any front line medical staff actively working to fight this should be given permanent leave to remain if they want it.
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>> "Home Secretary Priti Patel said
Wow is she still alive? now there is a minister who has been remarkable by her absence in this crisis. her days are numbered.
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Wrong person, wrong time, wrong place.
But it'll probably stop her entire career. Now if she'd waited for more experience it might have been different. The fast track is not always a good idea.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-52121216
£660 fine under the Coronavirus Act 2020 .
.... was also ordered to pay a victim surcharge of £66 and costs of £85.
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And I bet she doesn’t have two pennies to rub together. Street cleaning with a bin bag for 2 months would be more constructive...she’s used to getting up early.
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Failed the attitude test big time I suspect. "dont you have criminals to catch pig" goes down a reet storm. (or if its the BTP, "go get a real copper" is right sure fire winner)
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 1 Apr 20 at 15:38
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With a French name, a Yorkshire address and Geordie coppers, she probably had no idea what they were talking about.
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Good to see full support from the courts for a change. Attitude and argument coupled with 'I'll do as I like' has become endemic.
Last edited by: Fullchat on Wed 1 Apr 20 at 18:43
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-52121216
>>
>> £660 fine under the Coronavirus Act 2020 .
>> .... was also ordered to pay a victim surcharge of £66 and costs of £85.
>>
Just reported as conviction about to be quashed.
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And probably a nice little payout down the line for acting like a Richard :(
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Big jump today in reported deaths - 563 posted.
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Wonder if the ventilators are fully occupied or if it's just a spike.
Though yesterday was nearly 400 so we'll see.
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Zippy has not posted a "Report from the Front Line" for a day or two ... ?
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>> Zippy has not posted a "Report from the Front Line" for a day or two
>> ... ?
His daughter does not work every day, zippy may have better things to do, and I dont think we really need gruesome details every 24 hours, and i bet he thinks the same way too.
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>> His daughter does not work every day, zippy may have better things to do, and
>> I dont think we really need gruesome details every 24 hours, and i bet he
>> thinks the same way too.
>>
I'd rather hear those details from him than read them in the media.
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>> Big jump today in reported deaths - 563 posted.
>>
How many died as a direct result of having Covid 19, and how many died who would have died anyway but just happened to have Covid 19?
The unknown factor at the moment.
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Wed 1 Apr 20 at 18:49
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>> The unknown factor at the moment.
More than 563 would have died anyway yesterday, covid or not. You wont know the full fatility rate of this thing till 12 months period without it. Then we can compare a pre covid world a covid world and a post covid world.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 2 Apr 20 at 02:54
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>> More than 563 would have died anyway yesterday, covid or not. You wont know the
>> full fatility rate of this thing till 12 months period without it. Then we can
>> compare a pre covid world a covid world and a post covid world.
Even then we won't know with any precision. The virus will have taken out this year an unknown number who would have died next year. A bit like a hurricane blowing down trees that could have gone anytime in the previous few years and some that would otherwise have survived for years afterwards.
Ultimately the death count is the same as the birth count. It would be more meaningful to look at life years lost / changes in average age at death. Even then there is other stuff going on that affects the numbers.
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Ultimately the death count is the same as the birth count.
Birth count may soar given the current "homing"
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>Birth count may soar given the current "homing"
So might the murder rate ;-)
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Quote from David Hockney on tonights news. "The cause of death is birth.'
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Very good...I heard that too.
I like most of Hockneys work, but I’m biased because he attended my Alma Mater. Pre Christmas I had a new boiler system fitted and the father of my plumber taught Hockney art at school. He also taught me, or attempted to. Billy Bayer was his name, a refugee from Nazi Germany, whose good friend ‘Doc’ Krips, was also a refugee and taught German at the same school. ‘Doc’ was the youngest circuit judge in Vienna before fleeing.
I’ve several Hockney prints on my walls, bought from Salts Mill which I visit annually as it’s only a short train journey away. Pearblossom Highway, just north of LA, is an interesting photo collage, and Garrowby Hill, on the A166, always reminds me of trips long ago to Bridlington to visit retired relatives. I’ve also 4 framed prints of his recent stuff of East Yorkshire.
Back to thread now.....
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>> Billy Bayer was
>> his name, a refugee from Nazi Germany, whose good friend ‘Doc’ Krips, was also a
>> refugee and taught German at the same school. ‘Doc’ was the youngest circuit judge in
>> Vienna before fleeing.
Did Mr Bayer live in Menston or thereabouts?
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Dunno. If you knew him, or were taught by him, I’ll contact Peter his son ( who specialises in Intergas boilers and Canetis SuperFlow pre heaters) and ask.
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There were two Bayer brothers at Menston Junior School when I was there between 1969 and 71. Their father was Austrian and, I think, an artist. Mr Bayer and one or other of his boys was a regular attender on the 'family rambles' run by the Lower Wharfedale section of the Rambler's Association in which my father was an active participant for many years.
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"David Hockney"
I met him at the Royal Opera House in the early noughties. Seeing his work was partly the reason I chose illustration and design for my career and I wanted to tell him that. But I was too starstruck.
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There is (now closed of course) an exibition at Eastbourne's Towner Gallery showing how Hockney was influenced by the work of Alan Davie:
tinyurl.com/rcjtyrb
We really enjoyed it, but came away surprised that we liked Davie's work more than Hockney's. Nevertheless we could watch Hockney talking about art on YouTube for hours - he's always interested in something new.
P.S.Surely there's a spelling mistake in the video captions.
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That looks good, I'll be in Hastings as soon as this mess is over so I'll check it out if it's still on. I noticed 'We Two Boys Together Clinging' in the background on that video which was in the Whitworth Gallery, Manchester when I was there in 85/86. One of the 'Splash' series of course. And 'Mr and Mrs Clark and Percy' made an impression too. I had to write an essay about that. Happy times.
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>> More than 563 would have died anyway yesterday, covid or not. You wont know the
>> full fatility rate of this thing till 12 months period without it. Then we can
>> compare a pre covid world a covid world and a post covid world.
On average around 1,500 people die every day in the U.K.
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>>........ and how many died who would have died anyway.......
>>
...I think that is nailed on at 100%.....
;-)
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>>How many died as a direct result of having Covid 19, and how many died who would have died
>>anyway but just happened to have Covid 19?
>>
>>The unknown factor at the moment.
Not really. *THE* most important yet unknown factor at this moment is how many people have or have had Covid-19.
Superset - The population
Subset 1 - people who have or have had Covid-19
Subset 2 - people who report to the medical profession in one way or another that they have Covid-19
Subset 3 - People who are tested and test positive for Covid-19
Subset 4 - People who die from Covid-19
We need to know how many people in Subset 1 before we can even begin to work out how to manage this thing going forward.
And unlike the other groups, the bigger the Subset 1 is, the better.
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Don't normally have time for this woman:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr7UYnPrWss
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For once Kate you vicious old slapper, you are spot on.
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Oh God, if that woman is going to start saying things I agree with then the whole world is coming to an end.
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Its an aberration, crazy times and all that, its not quite a mental health issue yet
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 2 Apr 20 at 13:47
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"its not quite a mental health issue yet"
Dunno, I'd do her.
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>> "its not quite a mental health issue yet"
>>
>> Dunno, I'd do her.
Well as least some business is as usual
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I'm reading that Virgin Atlantic is only 51% by "Dick". Also it made losses for the past two years so was there much tax to avoid?
As a significant employer which provides a very popular service it deserves as much help as the next company in the same position (which is probably owned by some other tit like Mike Ashley or a hedge fund or venture capital fund whose only interest is stripping assets, or a Chinese, Indian or Russian magnate or corporation).
But I suppose she has a point re the NHS thing and his personal wealth. Beardie isn't the most popular, not really sure why. High profile easy target I guess.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 2 Apr 20 at 13:57
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>>I'm reading that Virgin Atlantic is only 51% by "Dick". Also it made losses for the past two years so was there much tax to avoid?
Virgin Atlantic is 51% owned by the Virgin Group and 49% by Delta Airlines. Either of those companies can afford to stump up serious money or they could sell some of their shares to raise money. Or they could finance it.
You're a better man than me if you can get a grip on Virgin Group and it's activities. It owns companies, it part owns companies and in some cases owns nothing but licences it's name. And it makes a fortune. Probably. Difficult to be sure how much. $10bn revenues? Maybe more.
I don't really see why Dick should get bailed out. And why isn't he asking the US Government also? Presumably they'll be telling him to sod right off.
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Current thread on the PPRUNE website....”Government loan to Virgin Australia”. I got sidetracked last night on the VC10 thread ( that’s an old jet for our younger readers)
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>> I'm reading that Virgin Atlantic is only 51% by "Dick". Also it made losses for
>> the past two years so was there much tax to avoid?
>>
>> As a significant employer which provides a very popular service it deserves as much help
>> as the next company in the same position
Its 51% held by Virgin Holdings, in offshore tax free Cayman Islands. Virgin Holdings has been trying to offload it for years, and 49% Delta owned. Its been loss making for years and Virgin Holdings has been trying to offload it.
So why should we the British taxpayer save a basket case of a company owned by a tax avoidance company and the yanks.
Oh and why did delta buy it? To stop someone else using the slots at heathrow,
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 2 Apr 20 at 14:13
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A week or two ago the Government made some comment like "we would need all shareholders to commit".
I guess VA's ownership structure is what was behind that comment.
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I guess some of these "city-Air" readings would be interesting during the lockdown period too- just to see how much cleaner it really is!
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>I guess VA's ownership structure is what was behind that comment.
And they rightfully don't trust beardie coming cap-in-hand on his own.
VA is currently owned by Delta (49%), KLM-Air France (31%) and Virgin Group (20%).
Their Annual Report for 2018 shows a cash position of £489m at year end and undrawn credit facilities of $237.5m
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The KLM thing didn't go through so Branson still owns 51%.
They aren't an American airline hence no request to US for funding BUT Delta are included in US funding of airlines.
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 3 Apr 20 at 08:32
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Ah! 2 out of 10 Kevin. Must try harder.
I should admit that I was reading that from their 2018 Annual Report which was hyping the joint venture as already done and dusted.
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> Its 51% held by Virgin Holdings, in offshore tax free Cayman Islands.
Perhaps he should ask the cayman islands government for a bailout?
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Currently holed up in Eastbourne with my new lady friend who I was staying with when lockdown began.Both of us in the vulnerable category.
The Towner is about half a mile away from here and the seafront about a quarter mile further on.
There are worse places to be isolating. We have a large garden to relax in and the afternoon exercise is a 3 mile walk down to the promenade and along to the pier and back.The whole place is eerily quiet apart from a few dossers in shop doorways who still seem to find alcohol from somewhere .
Problem I have is that I need to get back home at some point and it is over an hour away. I have enough medication for the moment. Will this count as a necessary journey when I need more?
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>>Will this count as a necessary journey when I need more?
Surely it must, I cannot think why it would not.
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>> Problem I have is that I need to get back home at some point and
>> it is over an hour away. I have enough medication for the moment. Will this
>> count as a necessary journey when I need more?
Yup, you can travel to get meds. Trip back to your Eastbourne love nest?? Verboten
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>>
>>Trip back to your Eastbourne love nest?? Verboten
>>
I thought even Boris had conceded one form of exercise was allowed.
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>> Problem I have is that I need to get back home at some point and
>> it is over an hour away. I have enough medication for the moment. Will this
>> count as a necessary journey when I need more?
Can you not get your medication diverted to another pharmacy instead? Surely there must be the same branch (eg, Boots, Lloyds, etc) locally that can contact your usual place (or vice versa) to authorise it?
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... or get a delivery to your current address. Easy enough with the online repeat prescription website I use.
EDIT Oh hang on, we went through this recently and wasn't it said that the online ones aren't taking new customers?
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 2 Apr 20 at 19:21
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I get that not every law suits every person but it seems a shame to me that people often want to challenge authority, especially at a time when we really all ought to be pulling in the same direction for OUR OWN good, and the well-being of the rest of the population, not just to please some lawmaker.
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well they will have a job to challenge specific legal aspect of the law, its deliberately vague on many points. The once a day thing is advice, not binding for the very reasons they are challenging it for.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 3 Apr 20 at 11:03
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On any normal timetable for introducing things like this, there would be a period of consultation, opportunity for interested parties and charities to submit their responses, committees, and informed debate in parliament. In the absence of most of that it's not surprising that things get missed. It's happened with every other aspect of these special measures.
Trying to put that right shouldn't be seen as a form of civil disobedience, irresponsibility or selfishness.
Whether the response is proportionate is another question but presumably they don't really want a judicial review, they just want the government to revisit it to make it work better.
We could just hope the police will apply what we would consider common sense but many peoples' experiences with authority suggest that would be unwise, particularly if it's more than a one-off.
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"We could just hope the police will apply what we would consider common sense"
I'm not sure that the police know how to deal with the 99% of the population who are 'normal' people when they are usually trying to sort out the 1% who are crims and loons.
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>> Whether the response is proportionate is another question but presumably they don't really want a
>> judicial review, they just want the government to revisit it to make it work better.
And the "advice" is being revised and clarified all the time. A judicial review would probably take longer than this bills 6 month lifespan anyway.
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"We could just hope the police will apply what we would consider common sense"
Discretion can also feature high in the 'how to deal' model.
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>> On any normal timetable for introducing things like this, there would be a period of
>> consultation, opportunity for interested parties and charities to submit their responses, committees, and informed
>> debate in parliament. In the absence of most of that it's not surprising that things get
>> missed. It's happened with every other aspect of these special measures.
>>
...things needed to be done at speed, and it's little surprise that some eggs were broken making this omelette.......
......it's no excuse for sloppy drafting, though. There's at least one clause in the new legislation that most certainly could be interpreted (and in the context of the wording used in other clauses, the judiciary would probably be entitled to do so) that you can be issued with a fixed penalty notice (simply) for being over the age of 18!
Fixed penalty notices
10.—(1) An authorised person may issue a fixed penalty notice to anyone that the authorised
person reasonably believes—
(a) has committed an offence under these Regulations;
(b) is over the age of 18.
:-O
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No, the use of a comma or semicolon in a list implies the conjunction "and". The meaning is clear.
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>> No, the use of a comma or semicolon in a list implies the conjunction "and".
>> The meaning is clear.
But what's wrong with
Fixed penalty notices
10.—(1) An authorised person may issue a fixed penalty notice to anyone that the authorised
person reasonably believes—
(a) has committed an offence under these Regulations; and
(b) is over the age of 18.
or
Fixed penalty notices
10.—(1) An authorised person may issue a fixed penalty notice to anyone that the authorised
person reasonably believes—
(a) has committed an offence under these Regulations; or
(b) is over the age of 18.
which would be the standard way to draft IME.
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>>
>> which would be the standard way to draft IME.
>>
....which is in use with "; and" and "; or" in various places in the bill, but not consistently.
No drafting should use constructs that are intended to be interpreted one way in one contex, and another in a different one. If it can be misinterpreted, it will be.
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...nope. In the context of both the "bulleted list" and the other drafting in this bill, it isn't at all clear whether this is the "logical and" or "logical or".
For instance, try applying your argument to this (also included) clause:
(c) “vulnerable person” includes—
(i) any person aged 70 or older;
(ii) any person under 70 who has an underlying health condition, including but not
limited to, the conditions listed in Schedule 1;
(iii) any person who is pregnant.
...you end up with constructs like "any person aged 70 or older who is pregnant" ;-)
As I say, poor drafting.
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>> As I say, poor drafting.
I don't know why you think I would use it where it would make no sense. The clause above, assuming I understand it, would be clearer as
(c) “vulnerable person” includes any of the following -
(i) any person aged 70 or older;
(ii) any person under 70 who has an underlying health condition, including but not
limited to, any of the conditions listed in Schedule 1;
(iii) any person who is pregnant.
although I'm not very happy with (ii) which needs a definition of 'underlying health condition'. I assume there isn't one as it is not capitalised.
I'm no lawyer but I have done a lot of lists in contracts. Sometimes my efforts have been 'corrected', occasionally to make them mean something I didn't intend!
Last edited by: VxFan on Sat 4 Apr 20 at 20:58
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>>
>> I don't know why you think I would use it where it would make no
>> sense.
>>
I don't, I'm largely agreeing with you. My reply was tagged to CG's post (and my subsequent one, in time, but not forum order, aligning with your reply, was to your good self).
;-)
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Sat 4 Apr 20 at 15:09
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>>.....
>> (ii) any person under 70 who has an underlying health condition, including but not
>> limited to, any of the conditions listed in Schedule 1;
>> (iii) any person who is pregnant.
>>
>> although I'm not very happy with (ii) which needs a definition of 'underlying health condition'.
>> I assume there isn't one as it is not capitalised.
>>
>>
...there is a list in, as you would expect, Schedule 1.
Unfortunately, this schedule/list is defined as Underlying Medical Conditions. !!
Rather adds to the weight of the argument on poor drafting really.
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>> ...there is a list in, as you would expect, Schedule 1.
>>
>> Unfortunately, this schedule/list is defined as Underlying Medical Conditions. !!
>>
>> Rather adds to the weight of the argument on poor drafting really.
Yes, and it's the "not limited to" that creates the need for an additional general definition which needs to be referenced in the clause - even if it's something arguable like "condition associated with a material increase in mortality risk in the reasonable opinion of a medical practitioner".
I see what you mean.
Last edited by: Manatee on Sat 4 Apr 20 at 16:06
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Ahhh I love this place.
On other forums (I gather) they are arguing over how far and often you can walk in a day, how many toilet rolls is reasonable and whether Easter eggs are essentials.
Here it's all about the wording of the legislation.
Excellent, long may it last :-)
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...I simply refuse to die under poorly drafted legislation, old chap.....
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>>it's the "not limited to" that creates the need for an additional general definition
Looking at the guidance for vulnerable people, the general definition of underlying health condition seems to be "anyone instructed to get a flu jab as an adult each year on medical grounds". It's included in the list of actual conditions in the guidance.
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Why is this thread titled "Contravirus"?
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 3 Apr 20 at 12:27
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>> Why is this thread titled "Contravirus"?
Because all the opticians are closed and we are unable to get our eyes tested ;)
Now corrected.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 3 Apr 20 at 12:27
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The number of confirmed cases have reached one million world wide, with 51,000 deaths. That is a death rate of 5.1%, but as the first figure only counts those who were unwell enough to seek medical help and up to 80% of those who catch it have either mild or no symptoms which mostly go unrecorded the actual death rate must be considerably lower, especially if you take into account that many who did not survive were at or near end of life anyway
Last edited by: Robin O'Reliant on Fri 3 Apr 20 at 15:08
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I'll guess 1% overall, but obviously heavily weighted towards the old and sick.
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The average age of those who have died with COVID-19 in Italy has been reported as 78. That's only about 4 years less than the average age at death generally.
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>>The average age of those who have died with COVID-19 in Italy has been reported as 78. That's only about 4 years less than the average age at death generally.
Life expectancy of a 78yr old man is 87, and 89 for a woman in the UK - I expect in Italy it is a year more.
www.annuityadvantage.com/resources/life-expectancy-tables/
Last edited by: Lygonos on Fri 3 Apr 20 at 21:28
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>> Life expectancy of a 78yr old man is 87, and 89 for a woman in
>> the UK - I expect in Italy it is a year more.
>>
>> www.annuityadvantage.com/resources/life-expectancy-tables/
Good point, when considering how many years of life might be lost by not treating elderly.
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>> The number of confirmed cases have reached one million world wide, with 51,000 deaths. That
>> is a death rate of 5.1%, but as the first figure only counts those who
>> were unwell enough to seek medical help
I don't think we can draw any firm conclusion from so called confirmed cases. While death is a conclusive condition (!) each country seems to have its own criteria for who gets tested.
My son was self isolating for a week with a cough, which he was convinced was a normal (for him) asthma cough, but also a temperature. He was in quite a bad way for a few days and as asthmatic he's supposed to be rigorously socially isolating. Couldn't get past the receptionist at his GP.
We still don't know if he actually had it or not. Maybe when the antibody test is available......
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My daughter had a dry persistent cough and general tiredness for over a week. As a result I've been self isolating for 1w 6d now. She seems better but has no way of telling whether she's had it, or whether she's still infectious. We've not been further than the front doorstep for a bit of clapping, but neither of us has had any symptoms.
It developed the day we returned from Portugal - she'd been house and cat sitting and we got home on the Sat early hours and she was coughing by Say night. It felt really cruel to send her back to her flat, alone, when she may have been really unwell.
Still, she's coming back over the w/e to stay, probably for the duration, this weekend. It would have been nice to know if she'd had it and whether she was still infectious (dubious, based on timeframe).
Our GP sent a text yesterday saying please use the following methods of contacting us
1) Self care (!!!)
2 Push doctor (you will remember I was referred to the video doc a while back for something else)
3) e-consult (another online one by the look of it)
4) surgery website for reviews, sick notes and repeats
5) Phone
The BBC checker was reporting 23 cases in my area yesterday so they are a million miles out I'd imagine.
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Mrs RP has a part time job as a surgery receptionist. They follow rigorous rules from the management there, basically to keep people that may have it (having the symptoms and still trying to access face to face with a doctor) away. They don't want any potential carriers in the building - patients have a call back from a doctor or other health professionals after a brief telephone triage, they believe that this provides a reasonable (many getting same day call-backs) and robust service and keeping it real by PPEing when they must see a patient. People are still not listening to the STAY F****G HOME message.
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"Still, she's coming back over the w/e to stay, probably for the duration, this weekend. It would have been nice to know if she'd had it and whether she was still infectious (dubious, based on timeframe)."
There is an obvious comment to be made, but I can't think of the right words.
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"My daughter had a dry persistent cough and general tiredness for over a week."
It seems that most of those who contract covid have a high temperature. Quite a few of the other symptoms described seem to tally with tree-pollen allergy which is also raging at the moment ...... at least, that's what I am hoping!
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Do be careful, Smokie. A few days extra apart whilst hard won't kill any of you.
I cannot imagine the guilt and at worst the loss that one or more of you would feel if someone got ill through your family deciding to be together.
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Points taken, and considered very seriously, thanks. However she ought to be fairly safe because she hasn't been anywhere or seen anyone since leaving us, apart from 1 shopping trip. We won't be all over each other and at the first sign of anything (yes I know that's probably too late) we will implement the plan we've agreed, which involves the use of her flat.
We are taking every sensible precaution at the moment. Shopping was delivered earlier today to the garage and will remain there for three days, at which point we will bring stuff on and disinfect bottles and jars etc with bleach solution. Post is being dumped in the garage for 3 days before being opened (including my shiny new Google Nest Home screen thing which I had to wait till today to open). The furthest we've been from our front door is the front step, to clap for the NHS.
NHS daughter was slated to come home at Easter as it's also her birthday but we've put her off.
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More over-enthusiasm for the rules - smokie