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IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ
Before discussions start in this thread, I would like to point out that any petty arguments, personal attacks, or any other infringement of house rules, etc. will be deleted where we feel fit from now on.
We will not give notice that we have deleted something. Nor will we enter into discussion why something was deleted. That will also be deleted.
It seems that discussion about Brexit brings out the worst in some people.
Be nice, Play nice, and control your temper. Your co-operation would be appreciated.
600977
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 11 Mar 20 at 09:11
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Oh the irony - "Peace, Prosperity and Friendship with all Nations"
None of which come via Brexit :-)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51250753
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>>
>> Oh the irony - "Peace, Prosperity and Friendship with all Nations"
Apparently the coin is illiterate due to the absence of an 'Oxford comma':
www.theguardian.com/books/2020/jan/27/brexit-50p-coin-boycott-philip-pullman-oxford-comma
What do our team of duty pedants think?
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I use the comma. I think it makes things clearer.
But I don't much care what's on such a ridiculous coin beyond despairing of how our Government spends it's time.
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Some people think that the 'Oxford' comma should not be used.
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>> Some people think that the 'Oxford' comma should not be used.
>>
...possibly 52% of the people?
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"What do our team of duty pedants think?"
A comma is not necessary after the word 'Prosperity'. I question the use of upper case letters for Prosperity, Friendship and Nations', but I guess that can be put down to style.
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A comma is not necessary after the word 'Prosperity'.
Why not? Its a list with three items.
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Its all about context, its not a sentence in a page of text, its a coin inscription, a slogan a logo so strict grammar is not required.
Mind you neither is the coin. Its pathetic.
And if anyone has a brexit firework party and scares my dog, I am going to stuff the bangers up their rse
Last edited by: Zero on Mon 27 Jan 20 at 23:39
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Firework fails video.
0:26 gets what he deserves.
No blood'n'guts but viewer discretion advised (it's on youtube - it ain't thaaaat bad)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_Pio_7UWCI
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Teaching at my numerous schools, including three grammars, was that the final comma be omitted.
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"Teaching at my numerous schools, including three grammars, was that the final comma be omitted."
Yes - that's what was taught at the grammar school I attended many years ago.
I checked comma use with my wife who informed me that she had asked this very question of one of her colleagues at the school where she taught. This particular chap had a PhD in English literature and wrote books; he also denounced the use of the second comma. However, as he is a raving Bremainiac, I wouldn't dare to discuss the coin with him.
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"Why not?"
Because it's a waste of a good comma.
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...well, it's a waste of a 50p coin....
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"...well, it's a waste of a 50p coin...."
Let me make a generous offer to anyone who is offended by the coin ....... let me take it away for you, and I'll humanely get rid of it.
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Ah, you just made it up. How disappointing and scandalous. I was looking forward to a an obscure academic argument in support of its omission. I think you should retire from the role of Official Pedant.
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Part time pedant here - been off duty for some time.
When I was young I was taught that the word "and" replaced the need for a comma.
However, I find it is some times useful if, for instance, the last item in a list has two words, such as "fish and chips"
Thus: "Pie, peas, and fish and chips"
On the whole, it's not a usage I would criticise.
I do use more commas than many do, which I find helps the understanding of complex sentences.
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>> When I was young I was taught that the word "and" replaced the need for
>> a comma.
>> However, I find it is some times useful if, for instance, the last item in
>> a list has two words, such as "fish and chips"
One of the sources when I Googled Oxford Comma referred to fish and chips or similar. Apparently there was an employment case where the presence (or was it absence?) of the comma meant two things that might ordinarily be treated together, like pack and load, were separate tasks which affected how pay was calculated.
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"Thus: "Pie, peas, and fish and chips""
I come across with similar things like that which I tend to resolve with:
Pie, peas and fish & chips.
I design books for the UK and US market so there will be a CMYK layer and two text layers. Same book, two markets. One of the first things I usually notice is that 'no comma before "and"' is for UK and 'comma before "and"' is Americanised.
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This is ridiculous, who the hell has pies with their Fish, Chips & peas, which should, by the way, be Fish n' Chips with peas. In addition the peas are an accompaniment to the fish n chips, so should never come first.
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Pudding, chips and gravy in Manchester.
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There is no such thing as "vegan" fish. Vegetation crap shaped to look my old socks, is not fish.
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It's the future i'm afraid. Fish eating to be banned by 2025.
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"Fish eating to be banned by 2025."
It's 6 years since I caught a North Sea Cod; my diet has shifted to tinned mackerel in tomato sauce. What a comedown.
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30 years ago I used to fish for codling off the beach on the Norfolk coast. None to be had now.
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Judgy, preaching vegans are as mad as a box of frogs.
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I want someone to invent a carrot made with 100% best steak so I can pretend to be a vegan.
It just isn't fair when a vegan can buy some soya protien that looks just like a burger so they can pretend to be normal!
Last edited by: Terry on Wed 29 Jan 20 at 18:32
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Would a carrot shaped, and carrot coloured pork sausage do the trick?
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>> Would a carrot shaped, and carrot coloured pork sausage do the trick?
The french do one, they stuff anything, any colour in a sausage. Vegan sausages are the sperm of the devil, Didnt do Linda McCartney any good.
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I bussed it into town a few weeks ago and a young lady got on with a T shirt bearing the slogan, "If you eat meat you are a murderer".
Obviously in need of psychiatric help.
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I'd have offered her a bit of my Ginsters pasty
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>> Obviously in need of psychiatric help.
I hope that's 'tic' Robin. It's a perfectly legitimate viewpoint to believe the killing of animals to suit man's needs is murder.
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>> >> Obviously in need of psychiatric help.
>>
>> I hope that's 'tic' Robin. It's a perfectly legitimate viewpoint to believe the killing of
>> animals to suit man's needs is murder.
Both viewpoints are ludicrous.
'Legitimate' - debatable.
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Apart from any moral issues it’s a misuse of language. Murder specifically means the unlawful killing of a person. Meat is therefor not murder.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Thu 30 Jan 20 at 09:17
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>> What CG says.
What was the phrase? Up to a point Lord Copper?
It'd be a boring world if campaign slogans stuck to strict interpretation of words.
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It’s not a campaign slogan it’s a tedious song by the most boring band of all time, The Smiths.
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>> the most boring band of all time, The Smiths.
They certainly manage to bury brief moments of brilliance within hours and hours and hours of tedium rounded off with unutterably unbearable smugness.
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>> It’s not a campaign slogan it’s a tedious song by the most boring band of
>> all time, The Smiths.
Not familiar with their repertoire though I've heard the odd dirge.
I'd always thought of it simple as a Vegan's slogan.
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"If you eat meat you are a murderer"
I vaguely remember seeing, possibly on Top Gear, that somewhere (US? UK?) that you can't kill wildlife to eat. You can drive over a rabbit, that's fine, but you can't eat it. The guy in the car behind can pick it up, roast it and eat it. He's not the killer. He's not breaking the law.
So in a way, we're all the guys in the car behind. I don't work in an abattoir. I can enjoy my burger without being called a murderer.
"If you eat meat, you're eating road-kill". I can live with that. Tasty.
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>>
>>
>> I vaguely remember seeing, possibly on Top Gear, that somewhere (US? UK?) that you can't
>> kill wildlife to eat.
>>
I don't think it's the UK. Airgun magazines have occasional articles with recipes for cooking squirrels and rabbits.
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>> I don't think it's the UK. Airgun magazines have occasional articles with recipes for cooking
>> squirrels and rabbits.
I've an idea there is an issue in UK with deer but got got time to research it right now.
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>> I've an idea there is an issue in UK with deer but got got time
>> to research it right now.
Its to do with the poaching laws, and there is an added complication of if a deer is not owned by someone its owned by the crown.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 30 Jan 20 at 14:22
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>> Its to do with the poaching laws, and there is an added complication of if
>> a deer is not owned by someone its owned by the crown.
Isn't that swans? Hmm?
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>> >> Its to do with the poaching laws, and there is an added complication of
>> if
>> >> a deer is not owned by someone its owned by the crown.
>>
>> Isn't that swans? Hmm?
No - the crown only owns all mute swans.
there was a thing back in Henry VIII day where deer ownership was handed out as favours. but that seems to have been revoked. Now all wild deer are owned by no-one, but poaching them is still illegal without a culling license. Running one over is deemed poaching.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 30 Jan 20 at 15:04
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I think it's a bit of urban myth, more to do with people purposely running animals over.
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Coming back from a night fishing trip about 20yrs ago' a Roe deer jumped out in front of my car and I hit it, killed it outright at the expense of a smashed h/light and dented bumper. I whipped out my filleting knife and gutted it at the roadside, took it home, processed it and it ended up in my freezer. I don't think suicide counts as poaching, not in my book anyway! it was only repaying me for the damage afterall.
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One of the Members of the Quango representing Scottish interests lived on southern edge of Highlands. Used to 'entertain' us with tales of dealing the coup de grace to deer critically injured by tourists' cars.
Think they might have entered local food chain with assistance of a friendly local butcher.
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Very good, and very true.
HAPPY BREXIT DAY
:o}
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>> www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2zJ8vaB5jo
>>
Thank you for that Roger. It's exponentially upped the level of debate to date from the Brexiteers on here.....
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"Thank you for that Roger. It's exponentially upped the level of debate to date from the Brexiteers on here....."
Well, both Zero and NoFM gave the ditty an 8-star review; they liked it.
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It will be nice to get over the line, and hopefully the Brexiteers can then move on with their lives and stop baiting people (see BBC News Have Your Say and other forums).
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I wonder how many of the 150 odd staff at a tool makers will feel tonight as unfortunately I had no options left and refused to extend their loans and they cannot pay wages?
Administrators have been appointed but tbh there is not a lot of hope.
One of the best in their field. Were expensive but customers from Europe used to buy their products because they were good.
At a trade show recently customers explained that they couldn't buy their products because they couldn't guarantee next day delivery if the UK is outside the EU and their factory lines shut down without the tools.
After 3 years of Govt faffing (from all sides), this company has just ran out of sales and money.
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And sadly that is what many wanted. Of course, they tend to be the not working, not in business, no understanding of commercial dealings, pool of people.
But they got what they wanted. Even if they couldn't explain what that was.
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>>they tend to be the not working, not in business, no understanding of commercial dealings, pool of people.
But Scotland voted to remain.... ;-)
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>>
>> >>they tend to be the not working, not in business, no understanding of commercial dealings,
>> pool of people.
>>
>> But Scotland voted to remain.... ;-)
They understand handouts
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>>
>> But Scotland voted to remain.... ;-)
>>
...they were just practicing for Indyref2.....
;-)
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>> But they got what they wanted. Even if they couldn't explain what that was.
Listening to vox pops on radio this morning shows how depressingly true that is.
One bloke was blaming the EU for losing him sixpence of his pocket money at age five. Apparently Brussels gave is decimal currency and seventies inflation. Another, making Staffordshire Oatcakes with a workforce that 80% EU, thinks they'll still be able to come. Also that those who stay will face no difficulty doing so.
I'm not saying everybody who voted leave was stupid but it was the stupid who dragged the referendum over the line.
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>>One bloke was blaming the EU for losing him sixpence of his pocket money at age five.
>>Apparently Brussels gave is decimal currency
Sounds like a proper bitter little man!
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British manufacturing was the envy of the world pre-EEC
Halcyon days are a-coming.
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"I'm not saying everybody who voted leave was stupid but it was the stupid who dragged the referendum over the line."
I'm not saying that everybody who voted remain was stupid but it was stupid who made the referendum a close-run thing.
Brexit may be decided, but Bremainial arrogance lives on.
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>>I'm not saying everybody who voted leave was stupid but it was the stupid who dragged the referendum over the line.
or was it.....
>>I'm not saying that everybody who voted remain was stupid but it was stupid who made the referendum a close-run thing.
I took the first 4 reports that a Google search picked up....
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0176268018301320
"We find that voting Leave is associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction"
academic.oup.com/economicpolicy/article/32/92/601/4459491
we find that fundamental characteristics of the voting population were key drivers of the Vote Leave share, in particular their education profiles, their historical dependence on manufacturing employment as well as low income and high unemployment"
cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/dp1480.pdf
"In particular, the share of the population with little or no qualifications is a strong predictor of the Vote Leave share"
www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/181252/1/dice-report-2017-4-50000000000852.pdf
"....included a population that is older, less educated, and confronted with below-average public services. "
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>> and this is why...
>>
>> www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/01/31/boris-johnson-ramps-pressure-eu-plans-impose-full-customs-border/
>>
>> the customers probably guessed correctly!
>>
I was looking at my portfolio last night and doing some rough calculations on the outcome of just one week extra stock holding to counter goods being held up.
Out of 120 companies I reckon it will cause about 7 real extra hardship - the cost of holding the extra weeks stock will cost them about £200m and they have no way of extending lending to cover the extra.
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Presumably the full border is an empty threat prior to the end of transition (Dec 31)
One that the Europeans can happily ignore, but suppliers and creditors to UK business will not. Thus harmful to UK plc and just more posturing from the floppy haired tool.
I'm not a business mogul so maybe I'm off the mark?
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>> Presumably the full border is an empty threat prior to the end of transition (Dec
>> 31)
That's how I read it, but plan for the worst.
>>
>> One that the Europeans can happily ignore, but suppliers and creditors to UK business will
>> not. Thus harmful to UK plc and just more posturing from the floppy haired tool.
>>
Exactly. They will change to an ex-works or similar sales pattern so their income and debt turn will not be impacted. There is already evidence of this. There has been a marked increase in import loan lending recently.
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It is odd isnt it that we are going to spend a year negotiating a trade deal with the EU. We start off with what is in effect a perfect trade deal, no barriers whatsoever, and we will end up with something worse which will be hailed as a victory. It’s a strange world.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sat 1 Feb 20 at 13:54
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>> It is odd isnt it that we are going to spend a year negotiating a
>> trade deal with the EU. We start off with what is in effect a perfect
>> trade deal, no barriers whatsoever, and we will end up with something worse which will
>> be hailed as a victory. It’s a strange world.
The dogged pursuit of Canada + when we previously had Germany ++ is retrograde to say least.
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>>It is odd isnt it that we are going to spend a year negotiating a trade deal with the EU
Frustrating, is what it is.
However, once it is done and we're out of the EU for better or worse, I do wonder what our nation's underachievers will blame for their misfortune going forward when the EU is no longer a valid excuse.
Surely they will not have to resort to taking personal responsibility for their own lives?
In truth therein lies an unintended consequence, I suspect. Insofar as trade deals, pan European regulation, and European market management are concerned the heavy lifting in future will be done by corporations and other businesses, not by Government agreement.
Increasingly UK firms will follow EU regulation of their own volition, whining for a referendum to fix something not understood but definitely disliked will no longer be an option for the population.
When the country becomes unhappy again and demands that its politicians fix things, they are going to find that their politicians no longer have the wherewithal to do so, whether or not they wish to.
The UK will resolve this situation in the end. The likes of Zippy and his company, Runfer and his, and all the others will eventually find a way forward which will make the best of things. But the population as a whole will probably not benefit, just sectors of it. Especially as investment gradually slides toward the most attractive places.
And if you're on benefits, on a pension, or similar you will probably be worse off. And you will certainly have neither influence of control.
Surely nobody believes that the UK can be stronger alone? At best it will be almost as strong as it was.
Just so it all gets done as quickly as possible. The EU haters will no longer have anything to whine about and the rest of us can get on with making the best of it.
Those misguided few who think.thought that further uncertainty was a good thing really need to take a step back and try to understand the real world.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 1 Feb 20 at 14:45
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>> It is odd isnt it that we are going to spend a year negotiating a
>> trade deal with the EU. We start off with what is in effect a perfect
>> trade deal, no barriers whatsoever, and we will end up with something worse which will
>> be hailed as a victory. It’s a strange world.
But all immigrants will go home, (even the majority of which is not from europe) so the national health service will be wonderful, old ladies wont get mugged, there will be no beggars, everyone will have a job (even tho they do now, so I guess some will have to have two) wages will double, the European court of human rights will have no jurisdiction over us (oh thats not part of the eu is it) we can have more powerful dyson vacuum cleaners (except we will still get the euro spec ones cos that is the bigger market)
AND WE HAVE OUR OWN FISHING GROUNDS (oh most of our trawler fleet sell to the EU)
And most of all we have won back control.
Mind you leaving the EU has one good benefit Farage can now STFU and hopefully drinkhimslef to death on english ale.
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...I shouldn't worry; the coronavirus will have finished everyone off before we find out how badly well things are going to end up.
(I note they sent the returnees to the North for quarantine, but drew the line at invoking comment by using Sunderland :-) )
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Well I celebrated Brexit with that great British culinary classic, Moules 'n Frites, got a Kilo (a kilo mind none of this pounds and ounces sheet)from Waitrose and did them à la Provençale style.
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Tartiflette and a decent Bordeaux last night, saucisse aux vin rouge tonight with a bottle of vin de Carcassone .
And Pastis for an aperitif...
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"Well I celebrated Brexit with that great British culinary classic"
1972: Spam and spaghetti hoops.
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"Well I celebrated Brexit with that great British culinary classic"
Brains Beer - several pints of it down at my local Spoons with some old band mates.
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Seems to me to be infantile to throw either celebration or commiseration parties. Perhaps it's just me.
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Many of my nursing colleagues have already made plans to return to Europe once they have found permanent jobs (Italy, Spain and Poland)...
Our management are constantly sending out reminders on the trust intranet for staff to apply for settled status..
Two of the admin staff I work with often look at the overly full theatre lists and whisper that 'this will will all change soon', on the 31st I even heard 'well they have years to get things right'.
Sorry but I really don't think these guys knew what they were voting for (I hope!).
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Well I celabrated with a full English roast dinner ! all the trimmings and NO Brussels!
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Were you somehow not nallowed to eat that meal prior to Brexit then? And they are called Brussels Sprouts, not Brussels.
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Oh I *love* Brussels sprouts. You can get them here for a couple of weeks a year but they're not very good.
Do you really judge food by it's name?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sun 2 Feb 20 at 12:53
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Judge it? Quite like them myself. An interesting new vegetable has appeared on the supermarket shelves here, they’re called kalettes , a cross between Brussels sprouts and kale. Look a bit like the heads of sprouting broccoli. Really quite tasty.
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...tey wouldn't be Maastricht kalettes, by any chance....?
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>> Well I celebrated Brexit with that great British culinary classic, Moules 'n Frites, got a
>> Kilo (a kilo mind none of this pounds and ounces sheet)from Waitrose and did them
>> à la Provençale style.
>>
I've just spent the evening with my nephew. He was saying how much he enjoyed a good Moules 'n Frites too and I had to agree.
He's young (22) and a holiday rep. He gets paid good money (mainly commission) to go to exotic places and enjoy himself. When he's not being paid good money to do that, he comes home to see the folks and then go on his own holidays. He has 8 weeks between this and his next placement and is on several different holidays for 7 of the weeks (with friends, girl friend, his mum etc).
He thinks any reduction on the free movement of people will severely impact his job at European resorts.
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Well before long he will have to start thinking about a proper career anyway, rather than drinking and chasing young fillies.
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>> Well before long he will have to start thinking about a proper career anyway, rather
>> than drinking and chasing young fillies.
Not if he's got any sense. He needs to play that particular role 'till it's dead.
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>> (I note they sent the returnees to the North for quarantine, but drew the line
>> at invoking comment by using Sunderland :-) )
I thought they had gone to The Land of The Scouse?
The two with coronavirus are in Newcastle.
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Contagiousing everyone down the Bigg Market last night ? I wonder if the Tuxedo disco boat is still going strong? A good few decades since I enjoyed its pleasures. That and the Cooperage pub on the quayside
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Any idiot would have known that this would have led to a mass-emigration of staff from the NHS.
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>>Any idiot would have known that this would have led to a mass-emigration of staff from the NHS
www.car4play.com/forum/post/index.htm?t=27566&m=601083&v=e
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One of my clients, the largest employer in its town has just closed. I'm a little peeved as I spent quite some time a while back rescuing it after a major product recall almost killed it off (a supplier up the line cocked up).
It had been in trouble for a few years and was brought by a smallish conglomerate about 5 years ago.
About 80% of its workforce were European, but they have been more difficult to recruit recently.
Locals just didn't want to work there. The company had regular recruitment days. Paid about £15 per hour. Set up booths in the job centre etc tried to get apprentices interested etc.
So it's going to Europe. My guess is Ireland, but anywhere where there is a willing workforce really.
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> Locals just didn't want to work there. The company had regular recruitment days. Paid about
>> £15 per hour. Set up booths in the job centre etc tried to get apprentices
>> interested etc.
Any particular reason people didn't want to work, area of low employment, too low a wage?
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>> > Locals just didn't want to work there. The company had regular recruitment days. Paid
>> about
>> >> £15 per hour. Set up booths in the job centre etc tried to get
>> apprentices
>> >> interested etc.
>>
>>
>> Any particular reason people didn't want to work, area of low employment, too low a
>> wage?
>>
Light manual labour at £15 per hour isn't bad. That's nearly £29,000 a year plus overtime, pensions, healthcare etc.
It is a high employment area but there are still about 2,200 unemployed in the immediate vicinity and about 5,000 within a 20 minute drive.
They should have been able to get full local employment given the number unemployed.
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High employment area, that's probably it. Not an expert in the slightest but I suspect in a much lower employment area they'd be queuing up for that sort of money.
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Missed the edit, was it not an option to move to an area in the UK with high unemployment?
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>> Missed the edit, was it not an option to move to an area in the
>> UK with high unemployment?
>>
They have operations around Europe and the UK but seem to have recruitment problems at the other locations in the UK too, including some low employment areas.
People seem more willing to work in Europe (well Poland and the Czech Republic) etc.
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>> >> Missed the edit, was it not an option to move to an area in
>> the
>> >> UK with high unemployment?
>> >>
>>
>> They have operations around Europe and the UK but seem to have recruitment problems at
>> the other locations in the UK too, including some low employment areas.
>
I don't know the business, but perhaps the offer isn't all its cracked up to be? I don't buy the idea that people here are any more lazy than those in eastern Europe.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Fri 14 Feb 20 at 20:18
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Are there really very many people in the UK who want a job but don't have one?
My experiencem judging from those that I have met or know, is that by far the majority of the unemployed re perfectly happy with that situation.
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I was going to say largely the same thing, based on my experience of being involved in recruitment for a large employer for some years in the past. I suspect a large percentage of those unemployed Zippy mentions are not so much unemployed but unemployable.
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>> I was going to say largely the same thing, based on my experience of being
>> involved in recruitment for a large employer for some years in the past. I suspect
>> a large percentage of those unemployed Zippy mentions are not so much unemployed but unemployable.
>>
Yes and it's a crying shame!
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>> Are there really very many people in the UK who want a job but don't
>> have one?
There's a lot of underemployment; people who struggle to get more than say 24 hours a week. Retail and leisure is a particular problem for this sort of thing.
>> My experiencem judging from those that I have met or know, is that by far
>> the majority of the unemployed re perfectly happy with that situation.
I'm not saying such people don't exist and there are massive regional variations which mean there are places where employment is a pipe dream but I see very few for whom it is a lifestyle choice.
See my other post regarding health etc.
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>>but I see very few for whom it is a lifestyle choice.
Then you're not looking.
Go hang out at the local job centre. Learn.
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>> Then you're not looking.
>>
>> Go hang out at the local job centre. Learn.
I'm talking, as Zippy is, of an area where the official figure for unemployment is <5%. Some of that 5% are 'churn'; people between jobs. If there was a significant cohort for whom living on £318 for singles or £499 for a couple a month was lifestyle choice then even if they were not presenting with benefit issues it would be debt (Council Tax for example) or relationships.
I think though there is/was a 'sweet spot' where 16 or 24 hours a week and Tax Credits worked well.
That's here. It will be vastly different in other areas of the Country or even the County.
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As you may recall, I used to live right by you. I know the area and I have recruited significantly within it.
As I said, go look. Learn.
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>> As you may recall, I used to live right by you. I know the area
>> and I have recruited significantly within it.
When? I'm wondering if something has changed in last few years.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 14 Feb 20 at 20:56
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>> When? I'm wondering if something has changed in last few years.
As things stand, as a volunteer adviser at a drop in, I saw those who have a problem. If they're somehow managing they won't have a problem.
The test, from my current perspective, will be when the managed migration to Universal Credit starts because that will flush out the somehow managing cohort.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 14 Feb 20 at 21:04
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>> Are there really very many people in the UK who want a job but don't
>> have one?
>>
>> My experiencem judging from those that I have met or know, is that by far
>> the majority of the unemployed re perfectly happy with that situation.
>>
You're not kidding. In my last full time job I was sometimes (Reluctantly) begged to do recruiting and training in my area. How the hell Jobcentre staff don't commit murder or have a nervous breakdown beats me, I have nothing but respect for them. The number of able bodied bone idle useless waists of space they have to deal with every day is unbelievable judging by what they sent me. Many of them only work when it's a case of "Take the job or your benefits will stop", and they will last the minimum time they can get away with till they either leave or more often get told to do one.
I have great sympathy for people who are genuinely unemployed, but there is a considerable hard core of people who could work but chose not to. I've not only had to deal with them professionally, but I've come across many people over the years who fall into that category. If you live and move in circles where everybody is motivated to have a career and build a comfortable life for themselves it can be difficult to understand that there are people who just don't give a stuff and sponge off the state and everybody else for as long as they can, but there are plenty of them out there, and they know the system inside out and take full advantage of it.
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>> Light manual labour at £15 per hour isn't bad. That's nearly £29,000 a year plus
>> overtime, pensions, healthcare etc.
What does 'light manual labour' involve? £15 is a good rate quite a bit more than I get with a solid grounding in benefits and what I'm told are excellent telephone skills.
>> It is a high employment area but there are still about 2,200 unemployed in the
>> immediate vicinity and about 5,000 within a 20 minute drive.
>>
>> They should have been able to get full local employment given the number unemployed.
I too live in a high employment area. The 3-5% on long term benefit as job seekers comprise a large proportion who are either (a) medically unfit but lacking the capacity to deal with making a move to health related benefits or (b) victims of DWP's execrable 'Work Capability Assessment.
In particular the benefits system just does not deal humanely with Mental Health issues.
Others struggle to make work marry with caring responsibility whether for children or relatives.
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>> What does 'light manual labour' involve? £15 is a good rate quite a bit more
>> than I get with a solid grounding in benefits and what I'm told are excellent
>> telephone skills.
Production line work. Largest box size manually moved is <1kg.
Multiple boxes are in bigger boxes and on trays and palletised - all dealt with by material moving equipment - trolleys, forklifts etc.
I acknowledge a lot of people are not fit to work.
But I have spent a day at the business when they have had recruitment days where hardly anyone turned up.
I spoke to the employees there who said it was a good place to work with good benefits.
The HR officer said that locals apply, get offers and are never seen or heard of again.
Last edited by: zippy on Fri 14 Feb 20 at 19:38
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>>The HR officer said that locals apply, get offers and are never seen or heard of again.
Which to me suggests that they were interested but then got a better offer.
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>> >>The HR officer said that locals apply, get offers and are never seen or heard
>> of again.
>>
>> Which to me suggests that they were interested but then got a better offer.
>>
I was going to say the same thing.
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The era of crap service in retail, catering hotels and ohter service industies dawns. Just pray that no one in your family needs care.
As I heard someone say on the TV why is a care worker who looks after someone at the end of their life, administering their medicines and responsible fo all aspects of their welfare deemed unskilled and how come strawberry pickers are a special case and not care workers?
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As one of the apparently 8 million underemployed brits they plan to fill the gap, I will reply - eff off. as will the other 7,999,999
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I'm relieved about that. Didnt fancy you as my carer. :-)
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I wonder what the worthless will do to justify their much-loved state of unemployment now that blaming immigration is out of the window.
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I think we need to ask ourselves a few questions:
Q Is it better to have immigration control than a free for all from the EU
A Yes - providing it helps the UK to get the right skills - not xenophobia and racism
Q Is it resonable to expect them to get the right balance from the start
A Realistically - no. The rules will change (be refined!) several times in the first few years
Q Are shortages in critical roles likely if the rules remain as announced
A Yes - some in critical roles (care, nursing etc). Some less critical (hospitality, cleaning etc)
Q Can current UK non-working fill the gaps noting some are unable (carers, long term illness etc)
A No. Unemployment low. Non-workers are (often) lazy, black economy, incapable, or untrained
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No doubt I am 'underemployed'. I too intend to remain so.
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>> No doubt I am 'underemployed'. I too intend to remain so.
And me.
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>>No doubt I am 'underemployed'. I too intend to remain so.
I am dedicating my life to continuing underemployed.
As it happens, though I only had a brief look, I note that I would fail to achieve the points necessary for a visa were I not British.
If a company is prepared to pay a person a living wage, and can show that they have made reasonable steps in attempting to recruit a British National, then what sense does it make to stop them recruiting the person? Just because they're foreign?
Ridiculous. And it's not going to end well.
Fortunately for my own sanity I can take some comfort from the fact that the average Brit is going to get exactly the economy they deserve and, at least some of whom, have begged for.
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Hold on.... we have Priti Patel in charge of things so all must be well.... another person I wouldn't trust are far as I could throw them... don't believe a word out of her mouth, never seems to display any kind of sense when interviewed, the show she put on LBC this morning was priceless and that was with a hard Tory asking the questions.
Apparently we have 8m workers hidden down the back of UK sofas who are just going to 'slide' into the vacancies, if you are 16 to 64 and breathing expect to get your call-up papers.
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To be fair Boris isn’t referring to you lot on here in those figures.
You are already part of the 50000 extra nurses that he has claimed they will have.
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>> To be fair Boris isn’t referring to you lot on here in those figures.
>>
>> You are already part of the 50000 extra nurses that he has claimed they will
>> have.
>>
Remember there was some (double) counting of existing nurses in that lot!
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It;s late, I'm tired and bored, but I'm awaiting a daughter to return;
Some food for thought;
It's all from 'reputable' Government, ONS, EU, Charities, Universities etc. sources. Some of the comments are mine, do feel free to tell me if/where I am wrong or what I've missed.
And all rounded but reasonably accurate
UK Population................67.9m
Not working Age.............26.6m
Potential Labour Force..41.0m
Economically inactive.......8.5m
Unemployed.....................1.6m
Employed.......................32.0m
Only 20% of not working are classed as unemployed
According to the statistics 1.5m are unemployed. Well, that's so small as to be ridiculous and useless. It also includes the many benefits receivers who pay lip service to looking and available for work. I wish we could do something about them, though I have only my own experience to go by, I think there are far too many of them but we have bigger problems.
We need to understand the 8.5m economically inactive.
It would appear that "Economically Inactive" (EI) is a b******* term used by various Governments to cover up other issues. In my opinion it is a ridiculous approach and should be at least better explained if not entirely abandoned. I also have no truck with working out whoever introduced it, all the useless b******s have kept it.
The definition of Economically Active (EI) used is people not in employment who have not been seeking work within the last 4 weeks and/or are unable to start work within the next 2 weeks.
*BUT* EI was supposed to be working age people who are;
-Student.
-Looking after family or home.
-Long-term sick.
-Retired.
In fact EI is just a maths exercise and a catch-all and is simply;
Workforce - (Employed + seeking/available for work) = EI
Some of them would work if they could. Some of them need better care than simply a category meaning they don't matter.
There are EI who want a job, have few prospects and so have given up looking. Long term hopeless so we just don't count them as unemployed.
There are EI who want a job but are not available within the next two weeks who want to work after that. (recovery, relative recovery, school holidays, temporary sickness etc. etc.) We we don't count them either.
It also includes people who have a job already arranged to go to but will not start within two weeks.
- EI is concentrated amongst those with little or no qualification.
- EI features heavily in households with unemployed
- Inactivity is concentrated amongst those with poor job prospects
- Most inactive men are not available for work through sickness or disability
- 34% of working age men without qualifications are economically inactive
I often say that all the unemployed who want a job have got one and the rest are wasters. A generalistion for sure, but not an unreasonable one in the scheme of things.
However, it is quite clear that not all the EI *want* to be EI and many of them would work if they could.
It also means that without foreign workers I don't understand who's going to be doing all the explosive growth BJ is promising.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 20 Feb 20 at 03:19
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p,s sometimes you seen EI shown as 19m. That's because it sometimes includes the 10m who are over 65 and retired.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 20 Feb 20 at 03:25
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p.p.s.
Also, if you will not allow "unskilled" workers in then you will force UK workers into those roles who might otherwise have got much better jobs in a growing workforce.
Arguably it's skilled workers you should resist if you wish to promote your own workforce.
But then you'd need to go back to my earlier posts concerning the demographics of the referendum voting to understand why nobody thinks about that.
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>> It;s late, I'm tired and bored, but I'm awaiting a daughter to return;
>>
>> Some food for thought;
>>
>> It's all from 'reputable' Government, ONS, EU, Charities, Universities etc. sources. Some of the comments
>> are mine, do feel free to tell me if/where I am wrong or what I've
>> missed.
Thanks for that Mark. While I might not agree with all of your commentary that's a helpful summation of what EI, and it's an umbrella term covering a diverse group, means.
Government stats for the group are here:
www.nomisweb.co.uk/reports/lmp/gor/2092957698/report.aspx#tabwab
In very rough terms out of 8.5million students, long term sick and looking after family/home account for 6 million split equally between them. The breakdown helpfully adds those who want a job v those that do not 1.7m v 6.7m.
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To my mind we need an immigration policy - in much the same way as you would put a lock on your front door and allow in only those who you want and trust. This has nothing to do with racism or xenophobia - but just good sense.
In setting a policy post Brexit, Boris is mindful of a number of things:
1. He is making the point that EU citizens have precisely the same rights as the rest of the world.
2. If a change is agreed with our european neighbours then it should be balanced
3. As yet no EU countries have unilaterally offered immigration rights to UK citizens.
4. The rules are very similar to those already applied to non-EU nationals
5. It is much easier to set the immigration bar high and later relax it if it doesn't work
I expect the policy will need to be refined as there may be real problems in some critical sectors - eg: care and nursing. The real issue is how responsive the government will be to changing the rules!
There are also an incidental benefits to the rules:
1. Some skill sets (eg carers) are under valued. This could have the effect of very explicitly increasing pay for carers etc through simple supply and demand
2. The alternative is a growing underclass of low paid, unskilled, immigrant labour in the UK - likely to promote division in communities and not condusive to a harmonious integrated society
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>> 2. The alternative is a growing underclass of low paid, unskilled, immigrant labour in the
>> UK -
Which is fine as long as people realise it has a cost. Your ability to get your car washed, lawn mowed, pipes mended* garden walls built, patio laid, will decease and will cost more. Service in restaurants and cafe's will be poorer, your amazon deliveries will take longer and cost more, people complain about wages forced down, but forget it means stuff is cheaper.
*and where it all went wrong. The Trades. Why oh why do we need immigrants to do the trades, the plumbing, the sparks, the carpentry, the building. All well paid careers with prospects of long term employment, all seemingly ignored as career paths by the youth of today. The dismantlement of the old apprenticeship process was a grave and serious mistake.
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"Which is fine as long as people realise it has a cost."
This will be felt most by those on a fixed income who will not benefit from increases in wages but will suffer the costs
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"Which is fine as long as people realise it has a cost."
I don't know one Brexiteer who didn't realise that eggs were going to have to be broken to make the omelette.
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I don't know one Brexiteer who was able to explain what the omelette looked or tasted like.
Which when you consider the educational demographic of the voters is not entirely surprising. [And that is a fact, like it or not].
However, since that is exactly the sector of society most likely to suffer through this, no biggie really. The exception being the old and bitter who will solve their own problem long before this is finished.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 20 Feb 20 at 16:59
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"Which when you consider the educational demographic of the voters is not entirely surprising. [And that is a fact, like it or not]"
But remember that the older demographic were educated when an education meant something. Do you count a modern degree in flower-arranging to be equivalent to a good old engineering apprenticeship? I'm afraid the notion of the bright young things with all their degrees doesn't hold water. If your argument is based on 'those having had a university education against those who haven't', you have to remember that 10x as many go the 'university' now.
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Oh dear. You're rather proving a point here.
If you can work out how to do it, read my previous post on voting demographics in the referendum. Complete with links to sources.
Or perhaps, if you wish to feel good about yourself, don't.
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>> I don't know one Brexiteer who was able to explain what the omelette looked or
>> tasted like.
>>
...they did know they didn't want a Spanish one, though.....
;-)
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>> "Which is fine as long as people realise it has a cost."
>>
>> I don't know one Brexiteer who didn't realise that eggs were going to have to
>> be broken to make the omelette.
But they had no right to break my eggs in search of their version, of what will be, an inferior omelette.
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So, taking Bromp's excellent link and my previous ones, we have;
1.6m unemployed
8.5m EI
However, whilst 1.7m of the EI say that they want work, assuming the figures are accurate only 998k of the economically inactive actually can work.
I wonder how many of the unemployed actually want to work. And how many say they do because otherwise their benefits get stopped. For the sake of argument lets say half.
That means we have a total of 1.7m people not working who perhaps would work if they could but are neither the most qualified or the most employable.
Not much to base the future of our country on, is it?
From Terry's note;
"The alternative is a growing underclass of low paid, unskilled, immigrant labour in the UK "
But it would appear that the alternative is the work not being done at all. How is that better? Or do we think that allowing skilled foreigners in to force our more willing workers down into the 'lesser" jobs is the right way to go?
When I got my US Visa the company had to prove how hard they had tried to employ an American Citizen to do my job at my salary before offering it to me. Seems like a pretty reasonable standard to me. Surely that is far better than trying to say what jobs may or may not receive visas?
From Zero's note;
"The dismantlement of the old apprenticeship process was a grave and serious mistake. "
100%. They day we decided that going to Further Education was the only proof of value was a sad day.
My gardener and my plumber both want to retire. They are older gentlemen and now extensively travel the world and no longer want to work full time. Both are faced with simply closing down their business because neither can find any young(er) people will to take it over. In both cases they only want to sell their tools, not receive money for their business, though they want to be assured that their existing long term customers will be looked after..
Seemingly not possible. The work is just too difficult and requires effort and commitment. Something our youthful unemployed do not wish to offer.
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>> My gardener and my plumber both want to retire. They are older gentlemen and now
>> extensively travel the world and no longer want to work full time. Both are faced
>> with simply closing down their business because neither can find any young(er) people will to
>> take it over. In both cases they only want to sell their tools, not receive
>> money for their business, though they want to be assured that their existing long term
>> customers will be looked after..
>>
>> Seemingly not possible. The work is just too difficult and requires effort and commitment. Something
>> our youthful unemployed do not wish to offer.
If that is a general thing, something has gone horribly wrong. How did it happen? Is it some sort of sense of entitlement somehow conveyed to them that makes people think they don't need to make an effort to get themselves a decent life? A failure to realise that security and prospects come from acquiring skills and experience? Where does it come from? Apprenticeships were once prized, the key to a lifetime of earning opportunity.
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>>If that is a general thing, something has gone horribly wrong.
Impossible for me to say overall but my;
Gardener, North Oxfordshire
Plumber, Oxford
Tiler & Decorator, Berkshire (also my sister)
Roofer, Milton Keynes
Brickie, Northamptonshire
.....all say it is.
All older people, all wishing to pass on, none able to find a Brit to pass it to. Apparently int eh past Czechs and Polish have been good bets, but not so much anymore.
Sometime we decided judging schools on how many people passed o-levels, so much so that we introduced CSEs, Colleges on how many when to university, and companies by how many graduates they recruited.
We sidelined those not great at non-classroom learning and saw manual work as what you did if you failed at school.
A huge mistake which will take years to undo.
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Having dealt with dozens of apprentices until recently, I can safely say there's plenty of young people out there interested in doing apprenticeships.
What the issue with NoFM2Rs tradesmen listed is they are one man bands not really clued into the way their target audience sees and is influenced by. For big companies it's fine they can afford the every increasingly sophisticated ways to appeal to people to get their apprenticeships. Naturally one man bands simply don't have this ability or knowledge, what is needed is a way to match people wanting workers to those future employees.
Overall plenty of people have started apprenticeships in the UK in the past couple of years, I know that a number of these are apprenticeships in name only just to claim the gov grants. Still the numbers are pretty good. And there's success stories out there, iirc at the last world apprentice competition the UK did very well.
So yes there is a shortage in traditional building trades but they need to do more collectively, be it a finder service, apps, a visible presense on SM etc. To coin a phrase people can't be what they can't see, if you're after young people and not on SM you may as well be on the far side of the moon.
They are there, both groups need to be matched up much better.
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Having dealt with dozens of apprentices until recently, I can safely say there's plenty of young people out there interested in doing apprenticeships.
What the issue with NoFM2Rs tradesmen listed is they are one man bands not really clued into the way their target audience sees and is influenced by
Two good points. Possibly also too informal - if I were 18 and interested, would I also want to be part of a "scheme" that I was assured would give me a recognised qualification, in case I didn't want to be self employed indefinitely?
I have to allow that I don't know how 18-year-olds see the world either. Not very clearly would be the answer based on myself in 1971!
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>> Having dealt with dozens of apprentices until recently, I can safely say there's plenty of
>> young people out there interested in doing apprenticeships.
>>
>>
>>
People who are being encouraged to go to "Uni" rather than look for a trade are in many cases what we would describe as "Being a bit thick". In my latter years as a driving instructor when Blair's big education push was in full swing I came across quite a few of those and I've known a few more since. If they don't drop out - and I believe the rate is quite high - they end up with some cobblers degree that I doubt many employers value at all, especially when the holder has trouble with basic written English. When you meet them later on they are often in jobs that used to be reserved for those who quit school with no qualifications.
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> Two good points. Possibly also too informal - if I were 18 and interested, would
>> I also want to be part of a "scheme" that I was assured would give
>> me a recognised qualification, in case I didn't want to be self employed indefinitely?
>
Plenty do, in fact all do as the government requires it if you they want the grant. However some aren't worth much but most are. Day release or block release are still very common.
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"A failure to realise that security and prospects come from acquiring skills and experience? Where does it come from? Apprenticeships were once prized, the key to a lifetime of earning opportunity?"
Or is it because we have allowed the self interest and profiteering of academia to dictate and manipulate purely for their own growth and egos?
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>> Or is it because we have allowed the self interest and profiteering of academia to
>> dictate and manipulate purely for their own growth and egos?
That conclusion is a bit of a reach IMHO. My recollection is that in nineties, spanning both Major and Blair, there was a panic that UK did not have enough graduates. Comparisons were drawn with other countries like Korea or Singapore who pushed a far higher proportion of their 18yo's into University. We were being left behind by fast growing modernising economies and losing competition.
I'm sure the Universities, including all the former Polytechnics, seized the opportunity but the driver was government policy rather than something they did of their own motion.
The probable effect though has been to devalue a first degree and drive more people to take a Masters so as to stand out.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 21 Feb 20 at 10:35
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>> I wonder how many of the unemployed actually want to work. And how many say
>> they do because otherwise their benefits get stopped. For the sake of argument lets say
>> half.
>>
Do you mean:
How Many of the 1.6 million actually want to work?
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Yes, sorry. The ones that are counted as officially "unemployed" not all those without jobs.
It was 1.6m, wasn't it?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 20 Feb 20 at 18:08
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>> Yes, sorry. The ones that are counted as officially "unemployed" not all those without jobs.
>>
>> It was 1.6m, wasn't it?
Yes it was 1.6 million and I guess anyone who is happy in that state would count amongst the long term unemployed?
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 20 Feb 20 at 18:15
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I'm not sure how it would show, but yes you'd think so.
I absolutely know people who maintain the image of being available for working, actively looking for work and yet they do everything they can to avoid work.
However, they often get forced into jobs which they then get fired from pretty quickly which I guess would impact the "long term" view.
We should take a much more honest and less political look at these figures and out management of them. Those who deserve help should get far more than they do, and those who don't deserve it are getting far more than they should.
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Commemorative 50p coin - Lygonos
