www.bbc.com/news/business-51047334
The headline is Mothercare closing but the article covers the whole high street retail situation.
To a large, and admittedly overly simplistic, extent the amount of money that people have to spend on non-essential retail is reasonably constant and in line with inflation.
So every £ spent on Amazon et al is £1 less spent on the High Street. Why do people find the deteriorating High Street such a surprise? Obvious, isn't it?
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Yup.
People on cycling forums routinely moan about cycle shops closing yet post about the cheap prices they got something for online. The same applies to most forms of consumer goods.
The High Street won't die, but it is in the process of changing far from it's traditional appearance.
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>> People on cycling forums routinely moan about cycle shops closing yet post about the cheap
>> prices they got something for online. The same applies to most forms of consumer goods.
Bikes are a good example of value of shops, or at least those with knowledgeable staff. When I worked in London my bike shop of choice was Simpsons in Camden/Kentish Town. Could just about get up there by bike or public transport in a flexitime lunch break. They stocked a good range of parts and staff knew exactly what I needed to sort out bottom bracket on The Lad's uni bike. I bought the part there, too many other punters took the advice, went off to 'think about it' and saved 90p buying the part online.
Inevitably Simpsons closed down.
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It’s certainly obvious that online spending will have a proportionate effect on the high street . I find it depressing though. Our high streets, market, towns and villages are one of the things that made our country distinctive and a pleasant place to live. At the end of the day when the last shop closeds and the pubs have all disappeared along with the local schools, police stations, Post offices and hospitals will we all be rejoicing that we have saved a few pounds by spending our lives looking at a screen and doing everything efficiently on line. I rather think not.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Sun 12 Jan 20 at 17:22
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>> I find it depressing though
So do I, bu I have a ray of optimism, which may just be my unwillingess to accept the inevitable;
Butchers, Bakers, and milkman almost died out because it was a penny cheaper in Tescos. However, all seem to be on a resurgence in areas where people both appreciate quality of service and are happy/able/willing to pay for it.
I suspect that in the future the High Street will ultimately become the place where those who want quality and are happy to pay for it will go. Be that tailors, butchers or whatever
There's also sort of things that will result from that, not all of them good; depending on where you are in the league of customers that retail stores want.
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High Street shopping was always a pain in the butt. Most of the shops only open when you are at work, often a limited supply of goods if you didn't live in one of the big cities and fewer and fewer places you could park the car. Let alone the crowds and salespeople who were all over you like a rash if you went in to browse and then steadfastly refused to meet your eye if you wanted to buy something.
Internet shopping is a marvellous experience, virtually every available and obscure product you could wish to buy delivered to your door in a day or two at cheap prices. Bricks and mortar shops will survive and thrive, but only those who deserve to do so by offering a good and knowledgeable service. It is the inefficient and the cowboys who will disappear.
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>> I suspect that in the future the High Street will ultimately become the place where
>> those who want quality and are happy to pay for it will go. Be that
>> tailors, butchers or whatever
>>
That may be true. I do notice that the small towns that have mainly independant shops rather than the national chains seem to be doing rather better.
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I agree that the traditional high street is changing. I am no great fan of trailing around shops but it clearly affects many - both customers and jobs. To stop it dying we need to find a sustainable future.
Online shoppping is clearly having a major impact - in a competitive world where most have to make hard choices as to where they spend their money, the online offering is very compelling.
The next pressure point will be the out of town retail parks where online shopping of household basics (loo rolls, canned products, flour, sugar, some veg etc) for delivery is increasing rapidly. It is probably also environmentally sound to have one van delivering (say) 5-10 loads that all individually going to the store.
This may be an opportunity for the traditional high street - I prefer to look at fresh food before I buy - meat, fruit, fish etc. Lets hope small specialist shops thrive!
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>> The next pressure point will be the out of town retail parks where online shopping
>> of household basics (loo rolls, canned products, flour, sugar, some veg etc) for delivery is
>> increasing rapidly. It is probably also environmentally sound to have one van delivering (say) 5-10
>> loads that all individually going to the store.
Nearby we had a semi failing mini retail park, an empty unit was taken over by home bargains, selling loo rolls, canned and packet goods, etc etc. The car park is now heaving, and sometimes you have to queue to park. Footfall in all the other shops in the park is up.
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"Pile it high, sell it cheap" obviously works in places.
That's how Tescos first started (urban myth?) and has been adopted very successfully by Lidl, Aldi and now Home Bargains!
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The remaining branch of Britain's oldest department store (Beales, 1881) will probably close down because it can't pay the rent. Online sales are doing it to death. It is local to us and has been an excellent place to buy high quality clothes, something particularly hard to do online, especially as there appears to be no standard definition of Small, Regular etc. sizes.
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I prefer doing shopping online, it's not really that it's often cheaper but more the choice and convenience. I'd happily pay more for online shopping. The choice is something shops can't compete on, I find anyway. Some shop in the nearest town might well have it but only after you've spent ages traipsing about.
If more shops do close, there's nothing to say that the buildings must always be shops. I'm sure that they can be put to other good use.
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The thing is we are social animals. We need to go out and interact with people. Sitting on the couch ordering stuff and waiting for it to be delivered seems a poor substitute to me. I like shopping, even going around the supermarket, I like seeing what’s new, I like chatting to the guy who run the vegetable stall on Norwich Market, I like browsing for clothes and trying them on I like a quick coffee in one of Norwich’s many cafes.
The internet is fine for ordering a spare part for the washing machine but that’s it.
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Can't say small talk is much of a draw for me, but each to their own.
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I guess I prefer a bit of the real world from time to time. Do you take your holidays on Google Earth? ;-)
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I suppose if shopping is your only chance of human interaction in Norfolk, then chatting about turnips is bound to be a highlight of the week. ;-)
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Do you ever find your conversations with Alexa a bit limited?
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Nah she's pretty chatty about fruit *and* vegetables.
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I enjoyed shopping in Leeds last Saturday! 3 shops where I’d done ‘click and collect’....living out in the sticks visiting the big city is always a very different experience. Shop in the AM, watch a film, a few beers, train home.
I only buy shoes online if they are exact replacements. On this occasion I couldn’t find what I wanted, but quite enjoyed the experience of going into JLewis and other shoes emporiums before the film started.
Still didn’t find what I wanted at the price I was prepared to pay!
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>> shoes emporiums ..............
>> Still didn’t find what I wanted at the price I was prepared to pay!
>>
Here you go
www.shoezone.com/
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Converting retail premises to ‘other use’ isn’t that simple. Friends of mine are landlords of single use retail premises. Trying to get planning permission to turn them into residential ain’t easy.
One very recent instance is a business ( small retail business with living accommodation over) that closed down. My pal has paid £500 to the council for change of use permission. The next council meeting is in 5 weeks time. In the meanwhile he’s no rental income, a mortgage to pay on it, utility standing charges, and he’s a very good landlord.
Highly unlikely to rent it out again as retail. Painful lesson learnt for him
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>> Converting retail premises to ‘other use’ isn’t that simple. Friends of mine are landlords of
>> single use retail premises. Trying to get planning permission to turn them into residential ain’t
>> easy.
>
I'm sure it is, but no reason why it should be. If there's a surplus of empty buildings we should try and use them for something else.
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A few random thoughts:
Mike Ashley is bleating to landlords that they need to be sensible with their rents otherwise more units will close down. He owns a retail unit in Glasgow, Parkhead Forge Retail , and guess what, it has empty units as the landlord wont drop his price.....
Several years ago we had High Streets full of shops, many independent. Many of these were staffed with full and part time permanent workers. The owners paid taxes, staff paid taxes. Staff were able to get mortgages and loans as they had permanent secure jobs. Now we have town centres run down, many workers automatically on minimum wages and more often than not, zero hours contracts. So little chance of getting mortgages, loans etc for the circle of economy. Instead we have online presence like Amazon with shady tax practices, employment practices and many zero hour contracts in place. Mix these practices in with Universal credit issues and you can see why it all has hugely adverse impact on our society.
I recently did some agency work at a local factory. The company is owned by a tax exile who is one of Scotland's wealthiest people. I would say that around 50% of the people working there were agency staff - zero hours contracts, not knowing till you get a text on the Fri afternoon whether you have any shifts the following week. Brutal way to live.
Beales - I actually know one of their senior managers, just texted him to show him my concern.
As many will know I recently ran a chain of charity shops - many customers say they are the scourge of the High St - ask and landlord and they are their preferred tenant now as they know they will have good covenant. But my experience is many landlords are burying their heads in the sand. They have asset values and rental returns that are unrealistic but they are not willing to write these down so would prefer to have them lying empty!
Finally, Councils have waged war on motorists for years, driving them to retail parks for parking. For a town centre to work, on street parking is a necessity. You want customers to be able to come in and park and run to the butcher / baker / bank etc. If you force them into parking in Morrisons car park, guess where they will shop??
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A few years back I attended a Council Meeting regarding the failure of Kirkintilloch Main St shopping area. It has a manin street around 3/4 mile long and then a ring road that bypasses this from one end to the other.
I suggested that they had the ideal tool to make it a success. Make the Main St one way and have on street parking for the full length and encourage customers into the town. the bypass was ideally placed to take traffic back up the opposite way.
They refused to discuss the idea as it conflicted with some green agenda or target to reduce car journeys.
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>> A few random thoughts:
>>
>>
Spot on Bobby!
The county council sets on road parking fees here and are putting up the charges. Shop owners are begging them not to but they don't care!
Then we have the crazy situation locally where there are 50 odd spaces down a street. Half the street is public parking and the country council collects the charge. The other side is private - owned by the local council and they collect charges - even though it looks like a road. Problem is that all the pay and display machines are down the middle of the road so it's very easy to get the wrong one and you will get a fine - it's even the same traffic warden!
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>> Finally, Councils have waged war on motorists for years, driving them to retail parks for
>> parking.
I don't think motorists took much driving. Even if there was cost free parking in town you had, on Saturday morning, to find a space on one or another of several car parks that operated at capacity; driving round in circles.
When we moved here (Northampton) 30 years ago we gave up trying to park in town and, as I had a season ticket there, parked at station and walked the last half mile.
Then we got an edge of town Tesco, two retail parks on the Southern Relief road etc etc.
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I shop for food - I'm too lazy to shop online. I also shop in the local town for stuff I can't readily get on line, some niche stuff. I visited a tea and cheese shop in a nearby town the other day with a friend (who is into both cheese and tea) I came away with some loose tea and some nice cheese. It was mid-afternoon and we'd been the shop's sole customers all day...
I certainly don't go to shop in the hope of social interaction. I find dealing with my fellow humans in the retail environment is not as pleasant as I would wish.
They're opening a Screwfix in town, I guess that will be really pleasant, especially as it's next door to Home Bargains.
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I tend to buy tech online. Pretty much anything else in person, I think.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55159180
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55142724
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55139369
Bonmarche and Arcardia all go into administration, Debenhams are about to close.
I think writing has been on the wall for big department stores for quite a while.
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I've spent a lifetime working for companies that supply high street retailers.
It does rather feel like being in a version of the Monty Python Black Knight sketch at the moment...
:-(
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>> I've spent a lifetime working for companies that supply high street retailers.
>>
>> It does rather feel like being in a version of the Monty Python Black Knight
>> sketch at the moment...
>>
>> :-(
>>
Out of interest, do you sell clothes to those shops just gone into administration?
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Well, it's shoes actually, but no, we wouldn't, not unless we could get an upfront payment. As "he" says, for all manner of reasons, it's rapidly all going down the online route anyway and we are having to reposition our business to adapt to that.
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>>I think writing has been on the wall for big department stores for quite a while.
They've been under attach for 40 years. Council reducing and charging for carparking drove them to out of town stores which though nobody ever really liked the parking availability destroyed the town centre stores.
And then by the internet did for them both.
I have little sympathy though, it is no more than they did to the individual retailer.
All driven by people who think they want huge choice and cheap price with no perceived inconvenience but then complain at the result.
If there was a meaningful demand then they'd still be there.
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It is a pity tho, The department store is about as close as it gets to retail therapy. Ashford discount village is about as close as it gets now.
Oh and JLP at High Wycombe. I hope that can continue.
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I think JLP will survive. They have managed to combine an online business with a high street presence. To a large degree the two businesses are integrated.
We have in Norwich what is to my mind about the best independent department store in the country: Jarrolds It was doing really well pre crisis. The had opened a couple of really nice restaurants in the store and a nice wine bar and delicatessen. They understand the need to make shopping an event and have numerous events like fashion evenings and book signings. They would be sorely missed.
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Many of the builings in our city centres are now being converted to flats and towns houses. Offices are disappearing and larges stores appear doomed. Perhaps we will see the resurgence of smaller retail business to serve the increasing numbers who livd in the cities. I was speaking to someone a while back who has a very nice flat by the river in the centre of Norwich. His complaint was that he had to get in his car to drive out to the supermarket in the suburbs to get his groceries.
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I read an article on the BBC about 'dark stores' they turn empty shops in town centres into mini warehouses to act as a hub for online storage and delivery. I think the business is growing pretty quickly.
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>>They've been under attach for 40 years. Council reducing and charging for carparking drove them to out of town stores which though nobody ever really liked the parking availability destroyed the town centre stores.
I certainly agree that LA's helped destroy town centres. Tesco built an empire on flat free parking.
Department stores as such go back a long time and seemed to coexist with specialist shops.
My first proper job was in Bradford which supported Brown Muff and Busby's. The Co-operative Emporium (Sunwin House) should probably be included too.
In my adult life John Lewis figured large for a while - in Milton Keynes, Cole Bros in Sheffield, Trewin's in Watford.
As the out of town investments grew and competition increased I suppose they had to spread their nets wider and wider, smaller fish gradually gave up the fight, and when the internet shark arrived something had to give. COVID has probably just brought forward the inevitable.
There was a period when the little shops had mostly gone and before the internet arrived. Minority pastimes suffered near-extinction and anybody after e.g. radio components or niche hobby supplies was probably having to scour obscure magazines or Exchange & Mart as I did.
The only certainty is that nothing stays the same.
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The large supermarkets and chains (clothing, diy, books etc) killed off most small independant traders in the 1980-2000 period.
The internet had started to undermine the large supermarkets and chains. Covid has simply brought forward that which may have happened over the next 5-10 years into a single year.
The weakest go to the wall first. The survivors will be those who adapt their offering to meet the new status quo. This has always been the case in a free market.
Sad for those whose jobs have gone, but the writing has been on the wall for many years.
The big question is how city centres are supported to evolve in the future to make use of now surplus office and retail space - possibly housing mixed with specialist retail and services which could have the makings of a vibrant community to replace that which is now rapidly decaying.
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I think those areas that plenty of money will be fine, they'll change and people will spend money, the areas that have struggled for the past 40 years will continue to struggle.
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City and town centre retail has long been propped up by the "grey pound", older shoppers who still prefer to visit shops. A generation who retired early on good pensions. Of course Covid has grounded many of them and accelerated the demise.
Next time you are in a city or town centre, just make a mental note of the average age of the shoppers. I guarantee that most of them will be over 50 and many of those much older still.
The Internet appealed to the generation behind them, the cash rich / time poor. In work, but no time to spend their money, and the youngest adults are so locked in to online activity that it's just a natural extension of their routine.
Unless or until the "oldies" come out again, the shops they frequented are up various creeks with no visible means of propulsion.
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>> Next time you are in a city or town centre, just make a mental note of the average age of
>> the shoppers. I guarantee that most of them will be over 50 and many of those much older still.
Those queuing to get in Primark this morning weren’t. About the most profitable operation on the high street, No online presence and appeals mainly to under 35s. If you can deliver what people want there is still money to be made.
Last edited by: VxFan on Thu 3 Dec 20 at 11:18
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A bit sad though at one level I think. It may be "what people want" but how many of them even give a passing thought as to how a T-shirt can get there and be available at £5 inc VAT. Why should they I suppose, but I can't be alone in thinking its a race to the bottom.
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I don't know much about retail trends, but I thought ethical, recycled, low CO2 emissions in clothing was very popular?
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It certainly gets talked about a lot...
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>> It certainly gets talked about a lot...
>>
But its too expensive so many don't bother?
Does any company actually manage to do it?
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Like I said, it gets talked about a lot...but some do try (much) harder than others.
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Primark is a phenomenon. I assume it's not difficult to replicate its parts so it must be very well run. The absence of an online presence is remarkable and perhaps it's very clever.
There's a tendency to think that online is automatically more profitable than bricks and mortar because bricks and mortar cost a lot. But online also has its challenges, and costly burdens - AO.com has done well at building market share, is entirely online, but has yet to make a profit. It's just closed its Netherlands business to concentrate on fixing other parts of the business.
Clicks and bricks work well together. I remember when what retailers feared and expected was that consumers would go to their shops to research their purchases and then go and buy online from someone else. No doubt that happens. What they found more commonly was that for large durables especially computers, TVs and appliances, over half of their customers buying in store had first researched online, including visiting the retailer's own website. That was the catalyst for click-and-collect.
I do however think that the next phase will be dominated by internet sales growth.
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SWMBO went to have a browse round the newish shopping centre at Bracknell this morning with 35 yo daughter. Apparently everywhere, Primark included, was dead and they said it had very little atmosphere. I did suggest that maybe lock down doesn't finish till tonight but was told I was wrong.
I mentioned that most shoppers they would have seen would have been silver haired but they said it was young mums with pushchairs. SWMBO was saying how sad it is that the majors are collapsing as they haven't even managed to fill all the units before they start emptying again.
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I went to the rebuilt Bracknell shortly after it opened, it was dead then, it was dead pre covid.
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>> SWMBO went to have a browse round the newish shopping centre at Bracknell this morning
>> with 35 yo daughter. Apparently everywhere, Primark included, was dead and they said it had
>> very little atmosphere. I did suggest that maybe lock down doesn't finish till tonight but
>> was told I was wrong.
There's a another newish centre off the A45 at Rushden Lakes. We been there about this time last year and while adequately busy it was far from buzzing; the department stores were particularly poorly attended.
Mrs B went again between lockdown #1 and #2 and found many shops empty. Hardest hit were those of shoe retailers; she has wide feet and struggles to find comfort/fit/style compromise.
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>>We have in Norwich what is to my mind about the best independent department store in the country: Jarrolds
The top floor used to be a coffee shop, with a large bay overlooking Gentleman's Walk, a rendezvous exclusively for snobby boys from one local school and snobby girls from another.
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>>I read an article on the BBC about 'dark stores' they turn empty shops in town centres into mini warehouses to act as a hub for online storage and delivery. I think the business is growing pretty quickly.
I think it is and it may make for good investment as tenants of this class tend to be solvent; investment trust Regional REIT reports that it has received some 94% of due rents over the past year.
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Smaller shops need to sell something supermarkets can't appear to manage.
Like epic bacon. And I mean epic.
www.georgebower-butchers.co.uk/oak-smoked-meats
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>> The top floor used to be a coffee shop, with a large bay overlooking Gentleman's
>> Walk,
You will be pleased to know that it has been recently restored to its former glory and is now a rather nice seafood restaurant selling caviar and champagne.
www.jarrold.co.uk/departments/restaurants/the-bay-seafood-bar
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I quite like Norwich, its a bit of a time warp. Must be due to having no motorway connection and two rather indirect shonky railway links.
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I used to go to Norwich quite a lot. CG will know where I mean, I used to work for a shoe manufacturer based in Hall Road. Used to stay in the Post House at the end of the road, and occasionally be up to no good of an evening at the Tudor Hall...
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Bally?
PostHouse is now a Holiday Inn and Tudor Hall is I think flats and a Tattoo Parlour
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Spot on CG. They still say they have some pension for me. Bless their little Swiss cottons.
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Had some good nights at Tudor Hall, if you had a (Roman Bronze natch) Cortina, a suit and a splash of Paco Rabanne on, you really couldn't go far wrong!
;-)
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>> I quite like Norwich, its a bit of a time warp. Must be due to
>> having no motorway connection, two rather indirect shonky railway links......
>>
....and some antediluvian residents....
;-)
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How many toes do antediluvians have?
;-)
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...I thought NFN was to do with fingers....
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Can't remember, it was the '80s, I missed most of the '80s ( Hic ) ;-)
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If I had a chance, I'd enjoy a coffee in Ahlers, Stackton Tressel.
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>> My first proper job was in Bradford which supported Brown Muff and Busby's. The Co-operative
>> Emporium (Sunwin House) should probably be included too.
>>
>> In my adult life John Lewis figured large for a while - in Milton Keynes,
>> Cole Bros in Sheffield, Trewin's in Watford.
The Muff in Brown Muffs was actually Maufe (EDIT either that or the family decided Muff was rude or insufficiently posh). One of the family lived over the road from my parents in Guiseley. At the time you were either Leeds or Bradford people and we were Leeds. The department stores were Schofields, Mathias Robinson and Marshall and Snelgrove. Mathias's and I think Marshalls too were absorbed into Debenhams are were Rowntrees (?) in Scarborough.
One of our packets of Xmas decorations came from either Trewins (or was the other place - Clements?) in Watford. Still in the Christmas Bag in the loft until recently.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 2 Dec 20 at 14:31
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My dad was a director of Cockaynes in Sheffield before it was taken over by Schofields. Long before I inhabited the planet of course. As an aside. As you were...
;-)
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Footfall in town centres...
In the late 80’s the local town centre was demolished and a new shopping centre was built on land basically pinched by the council from various trusts and charities.
(Pinched on the basis that it’s not retail or doesn’t have planning for housing so is worth a pittance. Then sold on to a huge developer at a stonking profit.)
Anyway, some bloke took a video of the shops and centre as it was. The real surprise, especially to our kids (in their 20s) was the numbers of people out shopping. Huge numbers, packed on to pavements. Regular busses, on street free parking (now gone or metered) and supermarkets in the town centre.
Of course when the anchor shops like Debenhams go, the supporting coffee shops, cafes and independents will also suffer a further fall in sales.
I’m going to have to look around for a new clothing supplier and I’m not happy, everything I am wearing at the moment is either from Debenhams or Arcadia!
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Every cloud then Zippy, every cloud eh?
;-)
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>> I’m going to have to look around for a new clothing supplier and I’m not
>> happy, everything I am wearing at the moment is either from Debenhams or Arcadia!
Bout time you got out that Miss Selfridge frock zippy.
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I recently and reluctantly joined a FB groups of the area close to where I grew up and I too am amazed at just how busy the main shopping street is in a video from the 70s. Hardly any cars either!
As an aside the group is actually for the Ilford and surrounding area and I'm sure there is someone else here who was from that area. Is it Robin O'Reliant? Anyway if you read this whoever you are are you in the group or do you want an invite? Zero, weren't you over that way too?
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Haven’t always lived in Norfolk
Born in Ilford, and spent the first 23 years of my life there.
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Retail parks and out of town supermarkets killed off the traditional high street - local traders and craftsmen simply went bust as they could not compete on price and variety.
The internet, accelerated by Covid, is killing off what remains of the high street, with shopping malls and supermarkets not far behind.
We may regret their passing, but it is our behaviour as consumers which has initiated the changes - search and buy on price for most consumer durables, clothing etc..
Some supermarkets will morph into local distribution depots for delivery operations - many in store are now stock pickers for click and collect or delivery, not actual customers. Much more efficient and cheaper to have a warehouse type structure, no customer essential add-ons and more automation to pick stock.
Shopping malls will need to reinvent themselves - chain stores + a very average overpriced food court will not induce people to visit. Maybe arts, crafts, entertainment, special terms for small traders etc.
High Streets have the double whammy of closed retail and spare office space as people increasingly work from home - if not permanently, certainly several days a week. They need radical solutions t avoid total decay!!
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When I buy clothes, although I'm certainly no fashion guru, I like see the item, to handle it and try it on. So its the retail outlet for me.
On the other hand my 2 daughters tend to buy their clothes from the main player on the internet. Judging by the amount of packages going back I would estimate 90% of items are returned.
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When you see something you like in a shop Fullchat, do you say, 'allo 'allo 'allo, what have we here then?
;-)
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Ho ho :/ No, something along the lines of 'this is going to be a fit up' :)
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...well, in your circumstances, it would better than "You're nicked!"
;-)
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>...well, in your circumstances, it would better than "You're nicked!"
Apparently Waitrose in Basingstoke have a special offer on at the moment.
A free Christmas turkey for anyone who can run faster than the security staff.
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Bit like the old thing about being chased by a tiger. You don't have to be able to run faster than the tiger. You just have to be able to run faster than whoever you're with.
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>>
>>
>> As an aside the group is actually for the Ilford and surrounding area and I'm
>> sure there is someone else here who was from that area. Is it Robin O'Reliant?
>> Anyway if you read this whoever you are are you in the group or do
>> you want an invite? Zero, weren't you over that way too?
>>
Yes, I lived and worked in Ilford for all of the eighties and had been using it's nightclubs for a decade before that. I don't really do Facebook, but from what I hear from a mate who still lives that way the place has gone down the pan big time in recent years. The south of the borough has had major problems with violence, drugs and street prostitution and the once fairly posh area to the north of the High Road has downgraded considerably too. I was amazed to see the Palais was no longer there last time I went back, that was a town centre institution and the core of many happy memories.
It is a great shame really, as I have fond memories of the area.
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The Ilford Palais is long gone. I met my wife to be there in 1968
The smart area used down the Cranbrook Road towards Gants Hill by Valentines Park.
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>> The Ilford Palais is long gone. I met my wife to be there in 1968
>>
>> The smart area used down the Cranbrook Road towards Gants Hill by Valentines Park.
>>
>>
That was a big Jewish area, every other house had a black cab parked in the drive.
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>> That was a big Jewish area, every other house had a black cab parked in
>> the drive.
Parts of Stanmore (or rather Canons Park/Belmont/Kenton) were like that in the early eighties.
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>> The Ilford Palais is long gone. I met my wife to be there in 1968
Not the Room at the Top?
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>>
>>
>> Not the Room at the Top?
>>
That's still going I believe, though apparently not a shadow of it's former self. I was at the bar there one night and looked around to see Geoff Hurst and Martin Peters standing beside me.
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>> As an aside the group is actually for the Ilford and surrounding area and I'm
>> sure there is someone else here who was from that area. Is it Robin O'Reliant?
>> Anyway if you read this whoever you are are you in the group or do
>> you want an invite? Zero, weren't you over that way too?
Yer, first 18 months in canning town, the another 4 years in Manor Park. My Fathers parents lived in Ilford, so know the area Historically up to about '73 Had my first fast food burger in Wimpey in Ilford, remember Harrison Gibson, and Bodgers,
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Sorry. I've just googled it. I asked because I knew a Tailor named Bodger. Unfortunate name I thought at the time.
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Bodgers was a Department store near the station. It had a sloping glass shopfront.
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>> Was Bodgers a tailors?
Nope
This lot was tho
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SeETmUOBTs
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I remember Hepworths, Burtons and John Collier in descending order of quality.
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That was a window to watch.
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It does seem amazing now that they would knock you up a made to measure suit in a couple of weeks.
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For you Facebookers from Ilford or thereabouts here is the FB group link.
www.facebook.com/groups/58264696121
Or if you can''t reach it I can probably invite you, if you use an address other than that in your profile here please let me know via smokie_mod@car4play dot com
Remind me where you were in Manor Park Zero? I was Wanstead Park Avenue which we liked to call Wsanstead though it was in Newham.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 3 Dec 20 at 00:35
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>> Remind me where you were in Manor Park Zero? I was Wanstead Park Avenue which
>> we liked to call Wsanstead though it was in Newham.
Washington Avenue, top floor flat overlooking the railway. Used to wave at my old man as he passed he would whistle to let us know he was coming.
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Oh OK, As a lad I used to cycle regularly alongside the Aldersbrook road then turn left onto a path just before the bridge where it became Rabbits Road then cycle alongside the railway towards Ilford, though the path turned under or over the railway and joined the Romford Road before the ?Post Office building on the Romford Road (may have been by a builders yard).
So I was probably often within 100s of of yards of you many times back in the 60s!!. And I used to go to the library at the end of Rabbits Road, and I think there was a plumbers shop or something along the Romford Road near that junction which I must've gone to with my Dad a few times.
Small world...
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>> Small world...
Bigger then you think, I was gone from there in 1960 to deepest Essex
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Where in Essex?
EDIT I boarded at secondary school in Woodford Green age 11-18, then back home to Wanstead, then got married at 20 and lived in a flat over f-i-l greenrgrocers in Leytonstone High Rd. Then first house in Seven Kings, then a few years in Billericay then a job move to Wingham (nr Canterbury) then to here in Wokingham, some 30 years ago.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 3 Dec 20 at 12:10
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>> Where in Essex?
>>
>> then a few years in Billericay
It appears you have followed me around. Wickford.
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Nearly bought a place in Beauchamps Drive Wickford when househunting in Essexx, ended up in Billericay...
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 3 Dec 20 at 13:24
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>> Nearly bought a place in Beauchamps Drive Wickford when househunting in Essexx, ended up in
>> Billericay...
I went to Beauchamps school.
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Is that Beechams, or Bowchamps?
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>> Is that Beechams, or Bowchamps?
Pronounced Fanshaw.
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>> >> Is that Beechams, or Bowchamps?
>>
>> Pronounced Fanshaw.
What about "Pygmalion pronounced success".
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>> Is that Beechams, or Bowchamps?
Bow-chom. it was approved so must have been good
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>> Bow-chom. it was approved so must have been good
Bit like your old school I suppose?
;-))
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Hmm. You weren't following the conversation carefully, were you.
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That's alright old chap. We understand that being from Embra English isn't your first language.
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Arguably not, but even I know when a comma is appropriate.
;-)
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>> Arguably not, but even I know when a comma is appropriate.
>> ;-)
Fancy a new job?
www.arcadiagroup.co.uk/careers
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I'll pass, but thanks for asking.
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>> Arguably not, but even I know when a comma is appropriate.
>> ;-)
>>
...indeed, before the "but" above. ;-)
But, the bracketing commas that might have been in my sentence are at best optional, and the relevant words being a strong part of the sentence argument means they are probably best ommited.
Commas are so passé anyway.
Commas are so passé, anyway.
Commas are so, passé, anyway.
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With all due respect, I'll not take instruction in the proper use of grammar from a Yorkshireman.
With all due respect, I'll not take instruction, in the proper use of grammar, from a Yorkshireman.
;-)
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...yer can allus tell a Yorkshireman, but you can't tell him much!
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Hence, presumably, their somewhat limited achievements to date? Pigeons, ferrets, rhubarb, small terriers and a failed steel industry seem to cover most of it? Oh, and "Heartbeat" I suppose.
Not that it's a bad record, the world needs quaint places too. Fair play and so on...
;-))
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Aye, even cats-eyes (invented by a Yorkshireman) don't seem to be able to keep poor drivers "in-lane", and the worst of them end up with damaged alloy rims.
Such a failure, Percy Shaw.
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I think the problem with the sentence is not merely a matter of commas, it's the usage of 'being'.
"We understand that being from Embra English isn't your first language".
"We understand that, since you are from Embra, English isn't your first language".
"We understand that being from Embra means that English isn't your first language".
Something like that, anyway.
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Let's not get started on the Welsh and their interpretation of the mother tongue...
;-)
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Gallai fod yn famiaith i chi, Sunshine, ond nid fy un i ydyw.
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Ki fout ou anpil, se tankou yon konferans pou laprès Trump isit la
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Pidgin?
www.bbc.com/pidgin
Last edited by: Lygonos on Thu 3 Dec 20 at 22:14
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I think it's Haitian, but it doesn't make sense.
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thats what happens when you use a flakey translation engine to decode what it coded......
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It is Creole, but is originally French:
"What's your problem? It's like a Trump press conference here"
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...Given the ongoing debate I thought it was East End patois decipherable only by all the ex-residents...
"Oi, Mush. I'd thank you not to throw a pear at Donald!"
...duff, duff...
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>> I think the problem with the sentence is not merely a matter of commas, it's
>> the usage of 'being'.
>>
...the real problem with my original sentence is that it should have read:
"As he's a complete dipstick, he can't follow a thread to save his life"
(But I was trying to be less direct, and dipstick is itself more polite than d*******, which I originally typed)
;-)
Last edited by: tyrednemotional on Thu 3 Dec 20 at 21:01
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You might have popped a comma in after "itself". Would have flowed a bit better. Not that it really mattered of course, but you could argue it was just maybe a tad sloppy there.
;-)
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...that would be one arbitrary comma...
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>>
>>
>> Remind me where you were in Manor Park Zero? I was Wanstead Park Avenue which
>> we liked to call Wsanstead though it was in Newham.
>>
The first property I bought (1982) was in Manor Park, Halley Road. I'd moved there from my mums when I got married, that place was in Sherrard Road which was the next one along but her section was over the border in Forest Gate.
By coincidence, about ten years ago I was in a small village on the foothills of the Preselis when I got talking to a customer who was obviously a Londoner. On comparing notes about exactly which part of London it turned out we had been next door neighbours, she had moved out on getting married shortly after we moved there when I was 13 but her parents had still lived there and I had got on particularly well with her dad.
Small world indeed.
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>> It does seem amazing now that they would knock you up a made to measure
>> suit in a couple of weeks.
I recall the one they made for me fitted someone else.
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>> It does seem amazing now that they would knock you up a made to measure
>> suit in a couple of weeks.
They probably carried a number of partially completed suits of different sizes, so it woudn't take long to modify one for a specific customer. That, at any rate, was the way Austin Reed worked.
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In any case, it would be hard to beat a Chinese tailor in Change Alley in Singapore, who would produce a beautifully finished suit in a day.
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>> They probably carried a number of partially completed suits of different sizes, so it woudn't
>> take long to modify one for a specific customer. That, at any rate, was the
>> way Austin Reed worked.
I had one like that from Alexandre who were part of same group as John Collier. First suit when I started work.
Googling suggests the Alexandre name is still going but the High St stores closed long ago.
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Hepworths was the fifty shilling tailor, for a period I suppose. I worked for the company in the George Davies/Next era and afterwards for a while.
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Lady Duncan was involved in the conversion of the old Derry & Toms store in Kensington to a Biba. I got rowed in on the freebies. Met Barbara Hulanicki.
Didn't last long, unfortunately.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Hulanicki
Last edited by: Duncan on Thu 3 Dec 20 at 11:26
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My first suit when I went to work in the City in1967 cost me £16 made to measure by John Collier with a spare pair of trousers. Blue pinstripe, very smart and it did fit well.
£16 was around one and a half weeks wages at the time...£12 per week was good money .
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No, I'm not one...
But SWMBO has just told me that their online offering over lockdowns has been so successful they are laying off up to 50% of staff and doing it online from now on. I don't know where she got it from or whether it's national or just here.
Whatever, there could be a raft of village halls and other meeting venues laid to waste if many others follow suit.
And of course while it may have been successful during lockdown, that's not to say that people always want to stay at home - they don't - she does Slimming World and says there are a number of people at her group who seem to only go for the social side as they pay £4 or £5 a week and don't lose an ounce.
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>>they pay £4 or £5 a week and don't lose an ounce.
But they do lose a few pounds.
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>> No, I'm not one...
>>
>> But SWMBO has just told me that their online offering over lockdowns has been so
>> successful they are laying off up to 50% of staff and doing it online from
>> now on. I don't know where she got it from or whether it's national or
>> just here.
Mrs Z has cancelled her Gym membership, and is now doing her Pilates and Yoga online via Zoom, using the same instructors. The instructors are now raking in all the payments rather than handing over a percentage to the Gym,
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My daughters each typically attend the gym three times a week, and then fight three times a week on top of that, which is also at the gym.
They have kept their fitness up to an extent using equipment at home and Zoom, but neither enjoy the experience anything like as much as they enjoy the atmosphere, crowd and whatever at the gym.
Their gym is imminently about to reopen, and they'll be there every day I expect.
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I guess fighting over zoom is a bit tricky, but should set them up for future corporate life.
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It's the only way I'd fight with them. I gave up sparring with them after the last b***** nose and black eye.
Not so much the pain as having to live with the barman in my local telling everybody how I'd got injured - beaten up by a girl.
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he should of said "beaten by a slip of a girl"
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>> he should of said "beaten by a slip of a girl"
>>
Have said surely.
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High Street Retail in the UK (anywhere really) - Robin O'Reliant
