We have terrible tap flow in our house, save for the kitchen and utility room which are decent.
So we were thinking of a power shower solution for the en-suite and bathrooms.
A plumber visited today and suggested that a pressurised hot water tank may be the answer, saving wiring, cost of pumps and damage to the exiting - chipping out routes for new pipes in the bathrooms mixers in place.
Are these any good? Are there likely to be problems. (Testing water pressure suggests 17 litres per minute.)
A question I didn't ask the plumber - if we lose the cold water tank in the loft, how are the cold taps fed as save for the utility room, kitchen and outside taps, they are all fed from the cold water tank in the loft.
I guess there will need to be a connection from the mains to the pipe(s) that came from the cold tank that feed the rest of the house?
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If you have a reasonable drop from the tank to the tap, then changing it to mains supply will probably not solve the problem.
Furred pipes? Wrong diameter pipes? Something.
So you need to find the problem first before deciding that pressurised anything is the answer.
Stick a hosepipe on to the pipe out of the tank. See what the flow is like at ground level. Probably fine. So probably a pipe problem.
Are downstairs taps better than upstairs? (larger drop)
etc. etc.
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The drop is about 2 or 3 ft. We have a split level house with only 5 steps between floors.
The maximum drop is about 10 ft and the pressure in that one is usable but not satisfying.
The pipes look 22mm to me.
Will attach a hose when I can find somewhere to attach it to!
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Are the pipes old enough to be potentially furred up?
Any neighbours with a similar set up?
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>> Are the pipes old enough to be potentially furred up?
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>> Any neighbours with a similar set up?
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House built in 1985.
They are all "Spanish villa" style but this is the only split level one.
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There's your problem. Spanish plumbing ;-)
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I was just thinking "1985? Oh well that's quite new" and then realised that it's not, it's 35 years. It's just that I'm so old that it sounds new.
I'd have a good investigate first untill you're sure the problem is that your taps are gravity fed from an insufficient drop. Because that's the only problem pressurising or mains supply will solve
MD should know, where is he?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 9 Jan 20 at 22:44
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I believe that 'flow' is what is required. Not pressure. If it's coming from a tank in the loft then flow it is.
I have a rural customer that gets her water from a tank that sits atop a spring. It's a long story and an even longer run to the house. Anyway that aside, she has two large storage tanks in the loft that are filled from said spring by a pump. The water to the tanks is uv treated and screened for debris. These two tanks have a link pipe to even out the load if you like. In the ten + years that I have known the premises the link pipe - 22mm iirc has blocked twice. Only soft stuff that has evaded the filters, but it has caused back up in the lead tank and causes issues in the house via the ceilings and the downstairs light fittings!! I cannot quite recall the set up as it hasn't happened for the previous four/five years, but my point is that a small constriction can soon become a collecting point for more detritus and block or restrict the flow. When one gets one's hand on the guilt party as I had done from the very short link pipe, it's hard to believe that something that turns out to be so soft and innocuous can cause such grief. If yours is in a long pipe run then you may likely never know what it was/is.
Turn off the supply. Cut the pipe in an appropriate spot and force air down the line. Repair pipe.
Another old trick when a low pressure hot pipe was blocked and if you had separate hot and cold taps in the kitchen was to link a short piece of hosepipe from the mains tap and 'shoot' it up the hot pipe. It usually worked. If you cuff it up let me know and I'll change me Moniker. Good luck.
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You will already have a direct mains feed to the wash basin in the bathroom(s). It has to be by regulation. Probably only the bath if you have one and upstairs WCs will be indirect cold supply.
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My house was built in 1993 and had a similarly low water pressure upstairs. I had a pump fitted in the loft space which wasn’t a particularly difficult or expensive job as I recall. Pump gives a good head of water for two showers simultaneously.
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>> You will already have a direct mains feed to the wash basin in the bathroom(s). It has to be by regulation.
I did not know that. Any idea why that requirement exists?
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>> >> You will already have a direct mains feed to the wash basin in the
>> bathroom(s). It has to be by regulation.
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>> I did not know that. Any idea why that requirement exists?
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It's to ensure that there is drinking water upstairs.
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I don't have an upstairs.
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>> >> You will already have a direct mains feed to the wash basin in the
>> bathroom(s). It has to be by regulation.
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since when? our house, built 1969, does not have that
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My owse was built in 1792 and doesn't have any mains water supply :o)
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>> since when? our house, built 1969, does not have that
Looks as though the regs changed in 1999. Ours built 1998 has upstairs taps supplied from loft tank. Oddly our previous place, built in early seventies, did have wash basin tap fed from mains. Whether some local regulation of the pre 74 regional water board required it I don't know.
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>> You will already have a direct mains feed to the wash basin in the bathroom(s).
>> It has to be by regulation. Probably only the bath if you have one and
>> upstairs WCs will be indirect cold supply.
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All basins outside of the kitchen run very slowly (probably less than 1 litre a minute). If they are on the mains then there is likely something else wrong.
Damn!
Last edited by: zippy on Thu 9 Jan 20 at 23:08
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A litre a minute? I'll say you've got a problem!!!
There's not a stopcock turned down somewhere, is there?
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>> All basins outside of the kitchen run very slowly (probably less than 1 litre a
>> minute). If they are on the mains then there is likely something else wrong.
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>> Damn!
If your place was built in 85, it will only have mains to your kitchen (and utility it seems)
YOU simply have an issue of lack of head, (which cant be fixed from the sound of it) and yes your plumber is right a pressurised system will fix it.
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>> You will already have a direct mains feed to the wash basin in the bathroom(s).
>> It has to be by regulation.
Not sure about that with older houses. When did that regulation came in. 1999?
Bylaw 30 kits were introduced to ensure the cold ( non C/H) water tank is kept clean.
I fitted a Bylaw 30 kit many years ago. Only the kitchen tap is mains fed.
( the only " contamination in my tank appears to be grains of sand which must have been supplied by the water board)
www.draytontank.co.uk/water-regulations-water-fitting-1999.htm
www.wras.co.uk/consumers/advice_for_consumers/what_are_the_water_regulations_/
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Fitting a mains pressure tank will solve the issue. The cold water will be dealt with by putting in a cross over somewhere between the cold feed to tank and the cold tap feed - often these pipes run together in the cupboard where the current HW tank is so this can be done out of the loft.
There are some considerations...
A mains pressure storage tank is notifiable to the building standards dept at the council - but an authorised fitter will deal with this. The tank needs a pressure and temperature relief valve so a route will need to be run out from the tank to the outside to vent these. An over temperature shut down is required from the tank to the boiler (or controller depending on how it's wired) so this may entail a bit of work. The tank also requires a thermostat, so if you current system doesn't have one then wiring back to the boiler / controller also required for that. If your boiler is open vented then you will need to retain the loft tank, and fit a 3-way valve between the tank and heating (you may have one already). These tanks need annual maintenance.
An alternative is to fit a thermal store. This is an inside out tank - the stored water (at low pressure) is boiler water, and hot water is generated by flow through a coil in the tank. This is not notifiable, and doesn't need relief vents. You would retain the CH header tank, but the tank runs direct on the boiler. No 3-way valve required - but it does require a tank stat so wiring back to the boiler / controller. Macdonald Engineering in Scotland do a variety of sizes so you should be able to find one that will fit in the place of the current cylinder (if it's big enough).
3rd Option is to rip out the boiler and fit a combi instead, but this requires more pipework modification - and I don't particularly like them, but that's not a reason not to install one!
Worth asking for quotes for all 3 and then seeing what's most cost effective.
Last edited by: RichardW on Fri 10 Jan 20 at 09:44
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How long have you lived there and has this always been a problem?
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>> How long have you lived there and has this always been a problem?
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Just over a year. Yes it has.
Lots of problems in the house including the previously mentioned flooring.
Found out the survey is not worth the paper its written on - so many get out clauses.
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What is wrong with simply fitting a shower pump? The cheapest and simplest solution surely.
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It only works on the shower, unless you fit 2, or a double ender in the right place; it's noisy; it needs a power supply; a decent one is expensive; it's a sticking plaster!
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Well I guess it depends on what the problem is. For the OP it seems to be the need for a decent shower. A pump will sort that. Low pressure on a wash basin tap is unlikely to be a problem. As I mentioned I had a pump installed here 20 years ago and it does the job very well. Yes you can hear it when you switch on the shower but not really a problem. Yes you do need a power supply but if installed in the loft space that unlikely to be a problem. The big plus side is cost. The other solutions require major work. A pump can be fitted in a day
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>> What is wrong with simply fitting a shower pump? The cheapest and simplest solution surely.
Filled with issues, ironically shower pumps need a good head of pressure or they cavitate and break apart, so you have location issues, plumbing issues, power issues, plus it only works on the shower, unless you lash out on a very expensive duty one that can handle a bath fill for example,
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All I know is mine just works fine.
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So the plumber (recommended) brought round a brochure for an indirect non-vented tank along with the price list (ouch!).
The manufacturer states that the minimum input pressure for the system is 1.5 Bar / 20 litres per minute.
As ours is 17 litres per minute and the plumber is the one who measured the flow as well so should have noticed the discrepancy.
I called the manufacturer's helpline to check and they confirmed that 17 litres per minute will not be sufficient to run two showers simultaneously which is what we want (when the house is full) and what we told the plumber what we wanted.
So at the it is "no-go" and back to the drawing board.
Problem is that a power shower will only help with the shows, not the slow taps / bath elsewhere in the house.
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Until recently I had 2 CW tanks in the loft, and a HW cylinder in a small airing room off a bedroom. The 20yo boiler kept going kaput so after various recommendations the system was changed....out went the CW tanks and HW cylinder.
In case an Intergas Combi Compact Eco RF36 and a Canetis Combi Superflow ( pre-heat store) which conveniently sits directly below the wall mounted new boiler.
A condensate internal drain had to be run thru an adjacent bedroom, where the skirting was taken off and it will get boxed in. Eventually. And a wider diameter gas supply pipe feed. Floorboards up and run through the joists. Sod’s law the joists ran the wrong way.
Ive now got boiling hot water at three water points simultaneously....bath, shower and downstairs kitchen tap., with a powerful flow on each. The heating system was drained down a few times, flushed, and now works better than ever.
Lots more loft space now I’ve boarded out where the 2 CW tanks previously resided, although I’ve very little stored junk....several old rucsacs, 3 pairs of skis, snowshoes, suitcases, sleeping bags.
It’s a normal 2 storey house with excellent water pressure...money well spent.
The large CW tank I cut in half and now use the bottom half for taking garden rubbish to the tip.
Last edited by: legacylad on Fri 17 Jan 20 at 21:04
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High Pressure Water Tank - No FM2R
