I can't find the original thread, though I thought there was one. Anyway...
www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/boeing_two_deadly_crashes
I'm no expert on this, but whoever is personally responsible in Boeing it does rather seem that the company itself needs a serious hammering since their decisions caused a lot of people to die, seemingly needlessly.
The FAA clearly needs a red-hot poker, also.
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I remember reading that when it was first published, the first thing I thought was, what other aircraft have got problems lurking?
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>> I remember reading that when it was first published, the first thing I thought was,
>> what other aircraft have got problems lurking?
Airbus machines have caught pilots out when the computers have removed the protections that normally stop them from doing something that might endanger the aircraft (see Air France 447). That though is stuff pilots are supposed to have been trained about but in reality it's shown up a number, including AF447, as lacking basic stick and rudder skills.
Over reliance on the automatics is not just an Airbus thing; there's an AAIB report on a Boeing 757 at Newcastle showing similar issues.
I think the difference with MAX8 is that the software that caused the problem was not properly explained and documented as part of the conversion training.
Thinking some more maybe Kegworth, where differences training between 737 versions with 'clockwork' instruments and those with electronic displays might have been a factor was writing on the wall.........
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I was more thinking of issues that aren't in the public domain or that of operators.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 1 Aug 19 at 20:37
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Well it looks as though some versions of the A321 NEO have a power/nacelle pitch issue too:
www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/a321neo-operators-alerted-over-excessive-pitch-ano-459718/
In this case though it's only associated with aft centre of gravity (ie load position) and is controllable with normal stick inputs, no equivalent of the Boeing's application of counter trim.
Discussion running on PPRUNe:
www.pprune.org/rumours-news/623627-a321neo-pitch-warning.html
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Rode a bike with no ABS today - locked up once, goes to show how you can become dependant on automatic stuff.
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>> I remember reading that when it was first published, the first thing I thought was,
>> what other aircraft have got problems lurking?
>>
Cracks found in 38 of 800 Boeing 737 NG jets inspected globally
www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing-cracks-found-on-737-jets-1.5316394?cmp=rss
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Fatigue cracking in all airliners is not uncommon, which is why they have major inspections and why they are designed to prevent crack propagation.
We have the Comet to thank for that.
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>> Fatigue cracking in all airliners is not uncommon, which is why they have major inspections
>
Only if you know where to look!
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>> >> Fatigue cracking in all airliners is not uncommon, which is why they have major
>> inspections
>> >
>>
>> Only if you know where to look!
Computer stress modelling should provide the answer (which is why manufacturers get caught short because they rely on it)
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> Computer stress modelling should provide the answer (which is why manufacturers get caught short because
>> they rely on it)
>>
'Should' being the key word!
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"Only if you know where to look!"
Corners.
And nobody puts Baby in the corner.
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>> Fatigue cracking in all airliners is not uncommon, which is why they have major inspections
>> and why they are designed to prevent crack propagation.
AIUI it wasn't regular inspections that turned up these problems. The first cracked 'pickle forks' were discovered when converting pax aircraft for freight.
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They are not the first cracked "pickle forks" Nor the first cracked pylon hangers or.. or... or....
Stuff that shouldnt in theory, does. The point is lumping it as a Boeing only issue is simply wrong.
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>> They are not the first cracked "pickle forks" Nor the first cracked pylon hangers or..
>> or... or....
AIUI the current issue is 'pickle forks' in 737NG machines at around a third of their expected service life in hours or flight cycles. Not aware of issues with similar components in earlier 737 versions (Classic or Jurassic) or other machines.
I'm not aiming at Boeing over Airbus, Douglas or any of the other current or previous plane builders. IIRC there's a current issue with flaps on the A380.
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Cracks found in 38 of 800 Boeing 737 NG jets inspected globally
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>> www.cbc.ca/news/business/boeing-cracks-found-on-737-jets-1.5316394?cmp=rss
>>
>>
That's a bit naughty in that particular area. Although getting spares might be the biggest issue.
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They're moving again.
TUI example G-TUMF has today moved from Tenerife, via Malaga, to Birmingham. Crossed over my place near Northampton about 10 minutes ago. Cruised at 18,000 feet, apparently must keep first stage of flaps deployed so as to prevent MCAS from interfering in the flight.
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Since 2020, there has been the Alskan Airlines door blowout:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67915771
and now their ISS StarLiner craft has problems:
www.independent.co.uk/space/boeing-starliner-return-delay-space-b2565373.htm
and of course the strange deaths of whistle blowers:
www.newsweek.com/boeing-whistleblowers-deaths-attorney-1899427
They can't seem to get much right at the moment.
Last edited by: zippy on Sat 22 Jun 24 at 22:50
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Lots of stuff on PPRUNE about Boeing and how it got to be where it is now.
Mentour Pilot's you tube has three or four vids too.
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Mentour Pilot is very good.
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Boeing gets it right around 50,000 times nearly every day when of their aircraft lands safely.
It does appear that mistakes have been made. Whether or not MCAS was a mistake, or the design that relied on unvalidated and incorrect data, the 'sistering' of certification almost certainly was and the FAA must have some responsibility.
As is so often the case, it's not the mistakes that are so egregious, it's the sweeping under the carpet/cover up.
That's trite, it's really very complicated I'm sure. But it goes to the top, as always.
Ironic in a way that it should happen in aviation, the only field I can think of in which a no-blame culture has ever been established.
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>> Boeing gets it right around 50,000 times nearly every day when of their aircraft lands
>> safely.
>>
I hope I can add to that statistics, as I'll be flying back from Canada on a Max 8 on Friday. :-O.
;-)
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The 10.55 out of Halifax?
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>> Yes.
Keep your hand on the door
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> Keep your hand on the door
And make sure the autopilot stays fully inflated.
Last edited by: Kevin on Tue 25 Jun 24 at 21:06
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>> >> Yes.
>> Keep your hand on the door
>>
...well, that door didn't make it home, but the rest of the plane did, so I think I'll stick to making sure the seatbelt remains buckled ;-)
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Flying long haul on a Friday? Oh dear…Ach I’m sure it’ll be fine…
;-)
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...at least it's not the 13th. ;-)
(Halifax to London isn't really long-haul - unless it's the Northern Trains/LNER version)
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...well, nothing dropped off (not even me on the relatively short flight). The worst part was a bit of repeated turbulence, and the howls of a rather grizzly baby :-( The flight departed about 30 minutes after advertised, and arrived 20 minutes early.
Two things reinforced on the journey; i) I'm not a great fan of Boeing planes (the Airbus configuration and ambience is, IMO, rather better (and the 737 Max 8 in Air Canada configuration is passable but certainly isn't a great experience)) and ii) Heathrow is a sh***y airport. I thought MCR was bad, but Heathrow has deteriorated. Dreadfully long walk from the plane, such travelators as there were all out of order, and 3 out of the 6 T2" lifts, a necessity with a luggage trolley, were also out of order. (as they had dorrs at both ends, the resulting battles to board were a sight to see). OTOH, I was through border control via the e-gates in seconds without queueing, though they rejected the current Mrs 'nE even though she has a newer passport than me :-)
All in all a very enjoyable holiday, with just about everything running smoothly.
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Boeing 737 Max - sooty123
