New house to us. Built 1985. Split level.
The suspended floors are failing. The "plywood" type timber above the bearings is sagging - the timber is cracking and giving way leading to a very spongy feeling. In places it has totally failed.
I have pulled the carpets up and there doesn't appear to be a damp problem - everything is dry, even underneath.
Underneath the house is a solid mass of building soil (not earth) - concrete or chalk like but solid.
The survey (full) advises they didn't take the fitted carpets up so couldn't check but no issues noted and to be fair, there were no issues for the first 6 months.
We haven't been moving any heavy furniture.
More and more of these holes are appearing.
Its baffling me and a couple of chippies that I have called to have a look.
Any ideas?
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>> Squirrels?
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Nuts! ;-)
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you need to get a building surveyor. Have you put a damp meter on it?
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>> you need to get a building surveyor. Have you put a damp meter on it?
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Yes, no damp.
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Maybe its something the previous owner knew about such as previous water damage or blocked vents? They may have dried out the damp but not remedied the damage.
Are you able to chat to neighbours who may have a similar issue or may know if there a history to your house?
Another line of thought is whether its conventional construction or timber-framed? I guess a failure in the wall membrane could lead to water having previously entered the flooring timbers.
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I would be surprised if its plywood, flooring grade chipboard would be the norm.
If its either it could be the wrong spec, (very common - you use the right spec for the building inspector, then the cheaper stuff for the rest of the estate) or the gaps between joists could be wrong, the glue in the boards could be failing, or as above its been damp, is no longer, but the damage is done.
Either way, sounds like the lot has to come up and be replaced. I'd want those joists inspected thoroughly as a minimum.
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>>Chipboard would be the norm.
Yes, sorry, couldn't find the right term.
>>Spec.
Could be. Chippy thought it was OK. Could be a bad batch though.
Ten or so houses, not on an estate, build to the same style (Spanish), but all are different and I understand by different builders within a few years of each other (as plots were sold).
>>Replace the lot.
I was hoping to replace the failed patches, but I suspect that you are right. It's an expense that I could really do without though.
I can get under the floor of the lounge and they seem OK and you can't physically see the why the boards are bouncy from underneath.
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How far apart are the joists?
How thick/wide are the joists?
How far apart are the supports for the joists? If just on some kind of surface, what stops the joists sinking slightly over time?
Last edited by: No FM2R on Sat 13 Jul 19 at 15:51
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>> How far apart are the joists?
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>> How thick/wide are the joists?
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>> How far apart are the supports for the joists? If just on some kind of
>> surface, what stops the joists sinking slightly over time?
>>
16 inches from the middle of each joist.
The joist is 1 3/4 inches wide and about 7 1/2 inches deep and above a 7 foot void.
The cross braces (noggins?) are about 18 inches apart.
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The joists are obviously supported at each end, are they supported anywhere in the middle also? How long are they?
Are you sure it is the floor material bouncing and not the joists themselves? 2x8 ought to be the minimum, which I guess yours almost are. Depends on how long an unsupported run there is.
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>> >>Replace the lot.
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>> I was hoping to replace the failed patches, but I suspect that you are right.
>> It's an expense that I could really do without though.
The expensive bit is getting the carpet relaid and paying a chippy by the day. The boarding is a relatively small part of the bill, so doing it once will save money.
*IF* you can prove its by past damp, or a another external building failure, your buildings insurance might cough up.
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Those joists ought to be able to work OK for a span up to say 12 feet. More than that and it's likely to be bouncy bouncy. Check the bearings where the joists rest - any movement here ?
I too would lay new boards throughout, 12mm ply wood if you can afford it and screw the ply down to the joists every nine inches or so. This will stiffen it all up nicely.
You could take the opportunity to make a ladder / staircase down into your new found cellar.
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Friends had a similar problem. They found out the flooring sheets had been left out in the rain during the build and years later the floors started to fail. Affected most of the houses in their small cul-de-sac.
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The only time I had a bouncy floor it was due to a retrofit patio door. A previous owner had put it in and not done whatever you are supposed to replace the lost weight that kept the floor stable when there was a wall there. Could that be a factor?
However this wouldnt explain the chipboard failing.
Just another thought is there retro-fitted cavity wall insulation that may have given winter damp?
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The house is not cavity wall insulated.
The failed areas tend to be near doors (heavy wear areas) I guess, though some areas is in the middle of a room.
The failed chipboard is cracked and falling away rather than just "bouncy".
A bit like someone has put a lump hammer to it.
We do have two sets of bi-fold doors. 1 x 5 panels and 1 x 3 panels. One is in the lounge where there is some impact - but at the opposite end of the room.
Had a word with the chippy last night and he thinks the best solution will be to get the lot up and replace it all.
The carpets will be damaged unfortunately so we will replace it with a solid wood floor over. Its about £5k that I could do without spending!
Problem is I am not keen on doing it as I don't know the cause yet and it may re-occur.
Last edited by: zippy on Sun 14 Jul 19 at 11:43
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Once the carpet and flooring is up you can have a good look. Maybe make a claim on household insurance?
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Agree that it is worth talking to your insurer.A lost excess is better than a £5 k bill.
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How can you make a claim of you don't know the cause or when the damage occured?
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>> How can you make a claim of you don't know the cause or when the damage occured?
Well, they know the failure occurred in the period that it has been insured by them, even though the cause may have been before. I'd fancy their chances of successfully claiming.
I can't see how the insurers could deny it for being uninsured or pre-existing.
Better if they did know the cause, of course.
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>> >> How can you make a claim of you don't know the cause or when
>> the damage occured?
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>> Well, they know the failure occurred in the period that it has been insured by
>> them, even though the cause may have been before. I'd fancy their chances of successfully
>> claiming.
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>> I can't see how the insurers could deny it for being uninsured or pre-existing.
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>> Better if they did know the cause, of course.
Building insurance covers losses from specified events such as storms, flood or water escaping from pipes occurring during the policy period. It specifically exclude wear and tear and damage caused by damp would be include in that.
I cannot see how without knowing the cause and when the claim occurred there could be any chance of a recovery.
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A pointless discussion easily resolved by reading the particular policy. I believe your understanding is incorrect.
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Not sure about being lucky in fact I'm quite the opposite in so many ways but I did spend many years dealing with household insurance so I do have a smattering of knowledge on the subject and what I posted is correct and was hopefully useful.
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Oh do let it go, I disagree with you, the policy can be read, and waving your willy won't help change my mind.
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>> Oh do let it go, I disagree with you, the policy can be read, and
>> waving your willy won't help change my mind.
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I believe the customary response is "I would agree with you, but then we would both be wrong".
;-)
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>> They found out the flooring sheets had been left out in the rain during the build and years later the floors started to fail.
Sounds like this or similar is a likely cause. Difficult to see what else it can be if everything is supported properly.
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I need to have my roof battens and felt replaced at a cost of £4-5K.
It's a mid 60s Wimpy built semi and my neighbour has recently had theirs done after a water leak.
Three quotes have stated it's due to the lack of overlap of the (concrete) roof tiles, allowing water to creep up the tiles and soak the battens. An additional row will be put in to increase the overlap.
The battens are rotten, causing the tiles to be supported by the felt in places.
What chance do you reckon of getting my insurance to cough up? There is a clause that specifically excludes slow, incipient water leaks.
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If you haven't any running or pooling water visible under the floor and it is ventilated with sufficient air bricks then conditions sound normal. The timber joist sizes and spacing sound OK.
So I think your chipboard has come to the natural end of its life... perhaps earlier than you'd hope. Maybe due to the moisture content in the air at that location or perhaps a poor quality brand or batch when new.... even as said initial wetting on site pre-fitting.
Given this flooring has lasted 35yrs I would say just have it all replaced with a decent brand 22mm P5 flooring grade checking it arrives dry and this time it will likely last well beyond the time you'll be worrying about it.
If you add to or make any changes to insulation or any vapour barrier under the floor when replacing take good advice as there can be unintended consequences. For example a significant upgrade to insulation or adding it where there was none before can make the under floor cavity much colder.
Having said all that and despite its widespread use at times I'm not keen on chipboard sheet for a suspended floor downstairs. It's a brilliant material to a point but fails quickly with moisture or unplanned loads/impact and movement/vibration.
Re insurance I'd be interested to hear how you get on. As GCN says usually the insurers like to see a specific insured "event" within the period of the policy and are very resistant to a gradually unfolding circumstance. But always worth a try.
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Suggestion: Sprinkle talcum powder in any chipboard T&G joints and make sure it is well, very well, screwed down. I have walked over endless squeaky chipboard floors in other houses and just couldn't live with it in mine. Fortunately, mine are 80 year old T&G softwood boards.
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Is the house too old for a case under the National House Building Council guarantee?
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>> Is the house too old for a case under the National House Building Council guarantee?
IIRC NHBC and similar are ten years with increasingly large set of exclusions in later years. OP states house was built in 1985.
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>> Is the house too old for a case under the National House Building Council guarantee?
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Unfortunately yes!
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NHBC actually stands for - No House Built Correctly.
I've been in the business for 42 years and they've never been of any use to man or beast.
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Suspended Floor Problems - Kevin
