www.bbc.com/future/story/20190709-has-humanity-reached-peak-intelligence
"Since the intelligence test was invented more than 100 years ago, our IQ scores have been steadily increasing."
So all the time I as growing up and thought I was smarter than my elders, it turns out I was correct.
"The most recent evidence suggests that this trend may now be slowing. It may even be reversing"
And in recent years when I've thought I was smarter than today's kids, it turns out that I am still correct.
I must tell my Father and my daughters. I'm sure that they'll be pleased for me.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Wed 10 Jul 19 at 03:04
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Probably not the smartest thing to do LOL
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>>So all the time I as growing up and thought I was smarter than my elders, it turns out I was correct.
>>And in recent years when I've thought I was smarter than today's kids, it turns out that I am still correct.
>>I must tell my Father and my daughters. I'm sure that they'll be pleased for me.
You are Donald Trump AICMFP!
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......a crispy white one I trust?
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Television.
Or at least entertainment being spoon fed for hours every day. Not just entertainment, life, in fact.
Even work, that used to require thinking, is now served to many people - they follow simple algorithms, switch things on and off, read scripts in call centres.
I was a computer once. Actually a "computation clerk" in the Labour Exchange (as it was known). A lowly job I had between school and university but it required constant brain exercise - working out the weekly benefits for "my" box of clients from Monday to Wednesday so that I could sign them on on Thursdays and Fridays (which also required some mental exercise - as interacting with people does). A dozen people doing this has presumably been reduced to half a person and a bunch of software, largely written by...software. Some people have to invent and maintain that, but not so many.
I wouldn't be surprised if the death of manual calculation and the mental arithmetic that goes with it is a factor - or maybe just one example of general cultural decadence.
The most important thing schools could teach is thinking. Then populism might be less, er, popular, the anti-vacc movement wouldn't exist, Bozo would be cast into the wilderness, and maybe Top Gear would be less moronic.
One way or another, the need for thinking and the ability to do it in day-to-day life has been reduced over my lifetime. No wonder I am the zenith.
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>> No wonder I am the zenith.
I might have to think a bit more about this. I'm pretty sure my children are brighter than I am.
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Hmmm that might be down to your interpretation.
SWMBO often says someone is clever when they can answer TV quiz questions she can't. (I mean swotty ones, not Countdown etc). But she has subjects she is good on too, and she hasn't done the homework which they will have done.
So I'm not sure who is brighter really, if TV quiz show ability is a measure.
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aaah ! mmmmm.... I'm not so sure that good memory = intelligence.
Surely, intelligence is better measured by seeing patterns (not necessarily visual ones), garnering information and so on and then making assessments and / or judgements.
I think that Simply Connect programme (BBC2 ?) shows what I'm on about.
Taking this view, many garage technicians aren't really intelligent - they often cannot diagnose car faults by analysing the information they receive from the customer, car noises and performance and finally electronic checks.
Last edited by: Dulwich Estate II on Wed 10 Jul 19 at 10:34
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"I might have to think a bit more about this. I'm pretty sure my children are brighter than I am."
My sons are bright and arty with a variety of achievements from tv camera credits to winning the Viz crossword, but they are as useless as Leonardo da Vinci when it comes to mending bike tyres.
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Increasingly we have less use, or at least less jobs, for people who are not "classroom smart".
What's even worse is that increasingly we don't value "non-classroom" skills - hence the constant banging on about how many children succeed and do to university as being just about the sole measure of the success of a school..
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"Increasingly we have less use, or at least less jobs, for people who are not "classroom smart":
Aldi and Lidl have been discussed on another thread - and their efficiency praised. They appear to employ bright, adaptable staff who can work quickly; I don't know what their policy is towards employing, say, people with disabilities. I can think of half a dozen disabled individuals who work at our local Sainsbury's.
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>> Aldi and Lidl have been discussed on another thread - and their efficiency praised. They
>> appear to employ bright, adaptable staff who can work quickly; I don't know what their
>> policy is towards employing, say, people with disabilities. I can think of half a dozen
>> disabled individuals who work at our local Sainsbury's.
As regards employing people with disabilities the German discounters are subject to the same statutory duties as any other employer.
Whether Tesco, Sainsbury or Morrisons (who's approach locally is excellent) reach beyond what law requires I do not know.
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>> "Increasingly we have less use, or at least less jobs, for people who are not "classroom smart":
IMO there is always a job for those with some nous.
I have worked in several departments of a company where the policy of only recruiting graduates prevailed.
It was really hard work trying to get them to understand the real world and not allow their wonderful answers to be implemented. This was compounded by over promoted bosses from the same source.
> I can think of half a dozen disabled individuals who work at our local Sainsbury's.
>>
Ditto the Tesco I sometimes visit
Last edited by: henry k on Wed 10 Jul 19 at 12:44
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>>or at least less jobs
Fewer, dammit, fewer!
And how did we get from "not classroom smart" to "disabled". Prejudices showing?
In the past we had factory jobs, mechanics jobs, and many more which required skilled and intelligent people who often simply did not feel comfortable or work successfully in a classroom environment. Apprenticeships were seen as an achievement.
Not any more. Exam results and further education are all that matter. Actual ability does not.
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>> Exam results and further education are all that matter. Actual ability does not.
>>
Be thankful for the exception that is the world of IT. It is still possible for a fairly able youth to get in and work their way up to a reasonable role without a degree.
I am sure there are other alternatives out there, but you are correct in that the current school system does little to prepare youngsters for any world of work.
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"And how did we get from "not classroom smart" to "disabled". Prejudices showing?"
We got there via 'not classroom smart, to less able, to disabled and difficulties in finding suitable work'.
What has that got to do with prejudices?
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Shock horror but I agree with Haywain.
We progressed from one issue with employment to another.
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"Shock horror but I agree with Haywain."
It's a positive sign that you are growing up!
;-)
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>> "And how did we get from "not classroom smart" to "disabled". Prejudices showing?"
>>
>> We got there via 'not classroom smart, to less able, to disabled and difficulties in
>> finding suitable work'.
>>
>> What has that got to do with prejudices?
If that had been the progression, probably nothing. But it wasn't.
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When I worked at Victim Support, I was the oldest in the office - next was a former Dep. Headteacher at around 10 years younger, and then there was a crop of twenty-something graduates. One was an English Lit Graduate - Their general knowledge was poor - even specific to their particular subjects. One example that springs to mind I was asked one day by the English graduate whether I was happy, I replied "as a sandboy" - I was shocked that she'd never heard this saying...!
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" - I was shocked that she'd never heard this saying...!
Why?
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Being educated to graduate level in English and that the saying is a pretty common currency.
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I've related before being in a similar mix to RP where, pushing 60 I'm the eldest and one of my much younger (mid twenties) colleagues was an English Grad from Uni of Reading. Technically she was my supervisor.
I had to explain reference to line about to lose one is unfortunate, to lose two looks careless and Importance of Being Earnest.
In her defence she'd studied literature from long before Wilde.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Wed 10 Jul 19 at 21:39
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Is it? Haven’t heard anyone use that expression for years and I doubt whether anyone much Under the age of 60 would use it.
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I was under 60 at the time.
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>> Being educated to graduate level in English and that the saying is a pretty common
>> currency.
>>
Common amongst pensioners quite possibly, but people in their twenties? I don't think so.
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It is a quote from The Old Curiosity Shop (Charles Dickens) so assumed it might be reasonably well known ! :-)
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Wiki has a bash at defining intelligence:
"Intelligence has been defined in many ways, including: the capacity for logic, understanding, self-awareness, learning, emotional knowledge, reasoning, planning, creativity, critical thinking, and problem solving. More generally, it can be described as the ability to perceive or infer information, and to retain it as knowledge to be applied towards adaptive behaviors within an environment or context. "
Are many of today's graduates intelligent?
Is Boris Johnson intelligent?
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>
>> Is Boris Johnson intelligent?
He has been educated beyond his intellectual capacity. This thread has prompted me to liken him to a Dickensian character.
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>> He has been educated beyond his intellectual capacity. This thread has prompted me to liken
>> him to a Dickensian character.
Go on, spill the beans......
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What does that mean? Can you be over educated?
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Of course you can be over educated. Boris has proved it. So much classical, historical education has been drummed into him, his head got full up at about 1945. There was no room left for economics, technology, science, or to acquire any life skills.
It manifests itself in a belief that churchillian qualities are all that is required to succeed. The only churchillian skill he has acquired tho is to insult others in in obscure, flowery, lengthy, over wordy english. Without the dry wit.
He truly would make a wonderful Dickens character, Foppish, disheveled, wordy, juvenile, unlucky in love and an unsupported belief in his own intelligence, superiority and destiny.
If he becomes PM, and if he survives a GE, I honestly believe he will spectacularly crash and burn, emigrate to the US in a wave of ridicule and history will paint him as a reviled traitorous figure.
Strangely he is in every way, an English version of Trump. Who would have thought history would bring a figure like that, let alone two, to political leadership positions.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 11 Jul 19 at 09:24
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>> He truly would make a wonderful Dickens character, Foppish, disheveled, wordy, juvenile, unlucky in love
>> and an unsupported belief in his own intelligence, superiority and destiny.
And of course the way he threw the British Ambassador under the bus would be a perfect evil plot twist perpetrated by the spineless lead character.
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> And of course the way he threw the British Ambassador under the bus would be
>> a perfect evil plot twist perpetrated by the spineless lead character.
>>
He didn't really come out in support. not sure that's the same as throwing him under the bus.
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>> He didn't really come out in support. not sure that's the same as throwing him
>> under the bus.
yertis,
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>> He didn't really come out in support. not sure that's the same as throwing him
>> under the bus.
The situation Kim Darroch was placed in was pretty much without precedent. First of all his confidential advice to government was leaked. Then Trump, instead of initially maintaining a dignified public silence while re-assuring Sir Kim he understood position and then publicly denigrating the leaker went off on one of his Twitter rants. He effectively declares our Ambassdor persona non grata and refuses to deal with him.
A state of affairs of course that provides a perfect example of what Sir Kim had written.
In those circumstance any Minister or aspirant Minister, never mind on on cusp of highest office in land, should offer the ambassador unqualified support. Hunt did. Boris wriggled and ducked the opportunity. That appears to have been last straw for the Ambassador (who was due to come home soon anyway).
Boris effectively sacked him and looks as though he's acting on Trump's request. The man who supposedly stood for sovereignty in Europe acted like the puppet of the President of the US.
That's a worying precedent.
EDIT: Thrown under a bus seems to be view of a number of senior Tories:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/10/kim-darroch-resigns-as-uk-ambassador-to-us-after-leaked-trump-comment
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Thu 11 Jul 19 at 10:28
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Can't disagree with nearly all of that except I don't really blame Trump for blasting off in his usual fashion. He was, after all, belittled in front of his people and not many presidents or other leaders would do nothing. He is POTUS, whether we like it or not.
Last edited by: smokie on Thu 11 Jul 19 at 12:03
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>> and not many presidents or other leaders would do nothing. He is POTUS, whether we
>> like it or not.
And therefore pretty much above the level where he needs to engage in childish name calling. He is dragging the level of POTUS down to his.
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>> He was, after all, belittled in front of his people and not many presidents or other leaders would do nothing.
Why has it taken so long ( years ) for him to suddenly respond to " fake news"
>> He is POTUS, whether we like it or not.
>>
www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/lies-the-news-media-is-starting-to-describe-trumps-falsehoods-that-way/2019/06/05/413cc2a0-8626-11e9-a491-25df61c78dc4_story.html?utm_term=.1afbd78d866e
Five things the UK ambassador row reveals about Trump
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-48941095
The American media shrug
In the UK, the one-sided feud between Mr Trump and Sir Kim was all-day, headline-grabbing news. It roiled the British government, spilled over into the Conservative leadership contest and consumed political conversation.
In the US, on the other hand, it was but a blip on the radar - just the latest instance of the president feuding with a critic, whether it's a celebrity, a political opponent or even a member of his own administration.
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He effectively declares our Ambassdor persona non
>> grata and refuses to deal with him.
>>
Was always going to happen unfortunately, he takes slights very seriously. I don't like it, its not very grown up but it is what it is. We have to deal with this reality as much we don't likehim.
In those circumstance any Minister or aspirant Minister, never mind on on cusp of highest
>> office in land, should offer the ambassador unqualified support. Hunt did. Boris wriggled and ducked
>> the opportunity. That appears to have been last straw for the Ambassador (who was due
>> to come home soon anyway).
Possibly, but we have to deal in practicalities. Do we need a work able relationship with the US, yes. Does current KD help or hinder this? Very unfortunately, he's been cut off at the knees by the moron that thought it was a good idea to leak this.
My personal opinion is he always going to resign regards of what any of the two said last night. He knew he is of no use if trump cut him out of diplomatic life.
Like I said very unfair on KD, I'm sure that's standard language on diplomatic notes back home. But let's not cut our nose off to spite our face.
Hopefully someone will face prison time over this leak.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Thu 11 Jul 19 at 11:44
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>> Possibly, but we have to deal in practicalities. Do we need a work able relationship
>> with the US, yes. Does current KD help or hinder this? Very unfortunately, he's been
>> cut off at the knees by the moron that thought it was a good idea
>> to leak this.
>> My personal opinion is he always going to resign regards of what any of the
>> two said last night. He knew he is of no use if trump cut him
>> out of diplomatic life.
I agree, to an extent, about the practicality. However KD's appointment only had another few months to run and no doubt he could have been replaced earlier if 'the exigencies of the service' required it. I suggested, tic, upthread that the next Ambassador should be Lord Farage of Dulwich. That gives Farage the peerage he wants, Trump the Ambassador he wants and cuts the Brexit Party off at the knees by removing it's only face that the public can relate too.
Seriously though we shouldn't have done anything in a way that made it look as if the Moron had got his way. What happens the next time a wannabe dictator takes a dislike to the Ambassdor? What if, assuming it's not Farage, Trump takes a dislike to Kim Darroch's sucessor?
The ultimate conspiracy theory is that US Intelligence are reading our diplomatic telegrams and they leaked it. Or that the whole thing is ass about face and what we're actually reading are Ambassador Woody Johnson's telegrams to the State Department about Bojo........
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>> The ultimate conspiracy theory is that US Intelligence are reading our diplomatic telegrams and they
>> leaked it. Or that the whole thing is ass about face and what we're actually
>> reading are Ambassador Woody Johnson's telegrams to the State Department about Bojo........
That the yanks are reading our diplomatic mail is a given, that they leaked it is unlikely given the backlash against them, that they could apply to Bojo is just an unfortunate (but accurate) coincidence.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 11 Jul 19 at 14:56
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>> >> The ultimate conspiracy theory is that US Intelligence are reading our diplomatic telegrams and they leaked it.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48948284
There is no evidence the publication of the email in which Sir Kim Darroch criticised President Trump's administration was due to a hack, a Foreign Office minister has said.
They would say that .......
If it was a hack that would start another fire.
GCHQ must be earning good overtime rates :-)
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I agree, to an extent, about the practicality. However KD's appointment only had another few
>> months to run and no doubt he could have been replaced earlier if 'the exigencies
>> of the service' required it.
I don't see why bother waiting, no one would be fooled by waiting a couple of months and still cause damage. We can't go that long without anyone in this particular job.
Seriously though we shouldn't have done anything in a way that made it look as
>> if the Moron had got his way.
There was no out in this case. We have to fight the battles we can win.
What happens the next time a wannabe dictator
>> takes a dislike to the Ambassdor? What if, assuming it's not Farage, Trump takes a
>> dislike to Kim Darroch's sucessor?
Not really something happening on a frequent basis. That's why it's important we do some internal investigations.
>>
>> The ultimate conspiracy theory is that US Intelligence are reading our diplomatic telegrams and they
>> leaked it.
More likely some that doesn't know what they've done or care. Although these are surprisingly widely spread distribution and are, surprisingly OS, rather than secret.
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An interesting concept. You believe we have a finite capacity for learning. If we attempt too much our brain becomes full. I seem to believe Homer Simpson had a similar idea. Try to learn too much and something has to go.
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>> An interesting concept. You believe we have a finite capacity for learning. If we attempt
>> too much our brain becomes full. I seem to believe Homer Simpson had a similar
>> idea. Try to learn too much and something has to go.
An amusing idea of course, but merely a way to try and explain a type of person who has capacity for classical education, but no ability to use it in a practical manner, other than to appear a pompous prick.
And there has to be finite storage capacity in the brain. Neurologically that is.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 11 Jul 19 at 09:41
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>> An interesting concept. You believe we have a finite capacity for learning. If we attempt> too much our brain becomes full. I seem to believe Homer Simpson had a similar idea. Try to learn too much and something has to go.
>>
Forgetting how to drive after learning how to make wine I believe.
Makes sense on some level if you think about it I suppose.
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>>
>> He truly would make a wonderful Dickens character, Foppish, disheveled, wordy, juvenile...
>> and an unsupported belief in his own intelligence, superiority and destiny.
And like Trump, I have come to believe, a malignant narcissist.
The disturbing thing is that doesn't seem to be doing Trump any harm.
Trump is incomprehensible to somebody like me. I know somebody like him - who can lie when everyone knows they are lying, and apparently ignore reality. They crave adoration, and are often charming and generous on first acquaintance but will turn on anyone who doesn't respond to their 'friendly' mode. Because they lie so easily to themselves as well as everybody else they are utterly poisonous.
Bozo is in toady mode with Trump (possibly mutual, this could go on for a while). Trump has chosen to forget that Boris has previously said Trump was "unfit" to be President (Boris did a u-turn when Trump was elected). Both must be well aware that Darroch not only shares the opinions of many in Washington but would also have been derelict in his duty had he not given it unvarnished to the Foreign Office and the PM, but truth to both of them is literally what they want it to be.
Last edited by: Manatee on Thu 11 Jul 19 at 10:26
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>> It is a quote from The Old Curiosity Shop (Charles Dickens) so assumed it might
>> be reasonably well known ! :-)
>>
It isn’t actually. The phrase never appears in the book. What does appear is a reference to an Inn called “The Jolly Sandboy”
I thought that would be reasonably well known.
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My shallow research at the time maybe ?
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>> It is a quote from The Old Curiosity Shop (Charles Dickens) so assumed it might
>> be reasonably well known ! :-)
>>
Of course, from that widely read book. Its all they talk about on instagram ;-)
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Ahhh Instagram, that well known intellectual benchmark... :-)
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>> Ahhh Instagram, that well known intellectual benchmark... :-)
>>
I'm not on there, I wouldn't know. I'll take your word for it though ;-)
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OP's link predominantly discussed about IQ which is Academic Intelligence.
However, there is following paragraph
Besides a resistance to these kinds of biases, there are also more general critical thinking skills – such as the capacity to challenge your assumptions, identify missing information, and look for alternative explanations for events before drawing conclusions. These are crucial to good thinking, but they do not correlate very strongly with IQ, and do not necessarily come with higher education. One study in the USA found almost no improvement in critical thinking throughout many people’s degrees.
Overall intelligence = IQ + EI
Where EI = Emotional Intelligence, which the above paragraph states implicitly.
The problem with IQ that it is a good measurement of ability when a question has a single correct answer. It also completely ignore interpersonal skills (which is part of EI).
In real world, EI is far more important than IQ because most decisions in real world involve understanding how other party reacts and often such scenarios do not have single correct answer but just different consequences based on which option is chosen.
Last edited by: movilogo on Thu 11 Jul 19 at 12:01
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Reagan was not rated as very intelligent but turned out to have very good perception and judgement.
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>> Reagan was not rated as very intelligent but turned out to have very good perception
>> and judgement.
He took advice, rejected it, acted on it, modified it. But he did seek it and listen to it. Trump does none of those things.
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"Reagan was not rated as very intelligent but turned out to have very good perception and judgement."
Right - and what were the intellectual elites saying about him at the time? Remember 'Spitting Image'?
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Trump is spitting image, its a classic case of life imitating art.
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Suddenly on another forum I had an advert to take an IQ test. This is the only place I've read or discussed IQ recently. I don't like that they do that!
It said that the test takes "up top 20 minutes)", so I started it completed it in probably about 5 minutes.
But what I really REALLY dislike is that it wanted £14.99 to give me my result. It didn't tell me that at tey start. It offered me a 25% discount when I ignored it for a bit. But it is such an annoying waste of time.
Someone commented underneath they didn't realise it cost until the end, but they paid anyway and understood why - it gave a "very professional assessment". Must've made him feel smart I suppose...
(I just realised it was linked in the middle of the Washington Post article linked to by someone in this thread)
And it's now cost me another 5 minutes writing this rant :-)
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>>(I just realised it was linked in the middle of the Washington Post article linked to by someone in this thread)
I put my hands up.
Did you really was an answer from Trumpland ? :-)
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My relative intelligence..... - smokie
