***** This thread is now closed, please CLICK HERE to go to Volume 82 *****
IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ
Before discussions start in this thread, I would like to point out that any petty arguments, personal attacks, or any other infringement of house rules, etc. will be deleted where we feel fit from now on.
We will not give notice that we have deleted something. Nor will we enter into discussion why something was deleted. That will also be deleted.
It seems that discussion about Brexit brings out the worst in some people.
Be nice, Play nice, and control your temper. Your co-operation would be appreciated.
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 24 Jul 19 at 19:23
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A group of MPs and others have issued Judicial Review proceedings against Commissioner of Police for The Metropolis over lack of progress in investigating alleged offences by the leave side in the 2016 referendum:
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jun/19/mps-take-met-to-court-over-leave-campaign-investigation-delays
Allegation in a nutshell is that it's not being progressed because to do so would be politically inconvenient.
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The cynic in me says that this will get thrown out at the last stage for some odd reason.
Bet this, like many things, used to happen in the past but was never publicised unlike today or maybe an inch at the bottom of The Times on page 'something'.
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Can't open that, is it a take-down of Boris's Article 24 plan to stay tariff-free in a no-deal Brexit scenario?
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I can't open it either now, but yes, it was. I imagine you guessed that from the title, "The latest Brexit fantasy is the most absurd of all"
Last edited by: smokie on Wed 26 Jun 19 at 07:44
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>> I can't open it either now, but yes, it was. I imagine you guessed that
>> from the title, "The latest Brexit fantasy is the most absurd of all"
A quick Google found it elsewhere.
www.reddit.com/r/ukpolitics/comments/c55sna/the_latest_brexit_fantasy_is_the_most_absurd_of/
Last edited by: VxFan on Wed 26 Jun 19 at 10:33
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The important bit of the article.....
"The latest fantasy promulgated by some Brexit supporters, including Mr Johnson, is that the UK can invoke Article 24 of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (Gatt), the treaty underpinning the World Trade Organization. This, they say, would maintain an unchanged trading relationship with the EU even if the UK crashes out without a deal when the deadline expires on October 31."
There has been a lot of nonsense over the past three years, but this is a strong contender for the most absurd of all. As countless trade lawyers and other experts have patiently explained, a rarely-used provision of Article 24 allows two economies to maintain a preferential trading relationship between themselves while they are finalising and implementing a full trade deal. It is not an open-ended way of maintaining preferential long-term access to each other’s markets even before talks begin. It also requires both partners to agree to invoke it, and other member governments of the WTO can object. Moreover, the provision applies only to tariffs on goods. Services trade would still see a severe disruption, as would the UK leaving the EU’s regulatory regime for products including manufactures and food.
Whatever illusions Mr Johnson harbours that the EU will come round, it has repeatedly and rightly said it has no intention of entering into an interim Article 24 arrangement with the UK in case of a no-deal Brexit. Such an agreement would merely give Britain an excuse to flounder around endlessly trying to work out what kind of relationship it wants with the EU.
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Johnson is lying, he knows he's lying, and he knows we know he's lying. So how can he possibly be elected?
Answer - the same way that Trump was.
We're doomed, I tell you.
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Almost want Boris to get the job just to see him ripped to pieces.
But that would mean the majority of Conservative members vote for him, and to do that they would need to:
1. Want Brexit at any cost,
2. Be retired or as close to the end if their careers for employment concerns to be of no consequence,
3. Have a substantial buffer if accumulated wealth
.... Oh dear.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Wed 26 Jun 19 at 15:52
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I'm afraid the only way out of this mess, is to get boris elected, and leave without a deal.
Only then will the horror stories finally be explained to the mad brexiteers.
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The lunatic fringe are concerned about the 300m per day for the NHS lie. Why would you think anything else will worry them?
The whole Brexit thing is simply acknowledgement of their irrational hatred of foreigners and their desperate need for a scapegoat rather than admitting their own problems and/or shortcomings. They don't understand or care what is better for the country, they just enjoy being able to share their bigotry in public with others of their ilk.
Blah blah Britain an empire again blah blah johnny foreigner giving us orders blah blah our own destiny.
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On this particular matter he is, of course, quite correct
Actually, and I realise there will be cries of derision, I am beginning to think that Boris, though despicable in so many ways, may be our best choice.
He is a driven man, motivated by his own ambition it is true. Nonetheless, driven.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/27/boris-johnson-refuses-rule-out-forcing-through-no-deal-brexit
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As rule, it's certainly true that if you state your intention to buy something before agreeing the price, you won't get a bargain. It was a big mistake by parliament to block no-deal, and that was quite obvious at the time.
But I don't think it's realistic to threaten the nuclear option in this case, with such an early date attached, and linked to the promise of a deal being done.
However if we are lucky, it will lead to some sort of LoI on the deal and a transition period to maintain tariff-free trade. A lot like May's deal in fact.
In fairness to May, she also had a default end date when she started. Then parliament decided it would be otherwise, and blocked no-deal, from which point she and we were doomed.
Of course, whatever deal he does will be claimed as a good one
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I'm more interested in the fact it was intimated that he could suspend parliament to get the no deal deal done. Can he?
If he cant then he cant deliver a no deal deal.
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I think the answer is technically “yes”. He could prorogue Parliament. The other question is of course is a what mechanism can Parliament use to stop “No Deal”. As it stands it is the law of the land that we leave the EU on 31st October.
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>> I think the answer is technically “yes”. He could prorogue Parliament. The other question is
>> of course is a what mechanism can Parliament use to stop “No Deal”. As it
>> stands it is the law of the land that we leave the EU on 31st
>> October.
Is it the law of the land? (not being facetious here genuine questions pf democracy and law) Is it legislated in law we leave then? did parliament vote it onto the statute book? Has it had royal assent?
What happens if (and this is a possible scenario) BoJo say we are leaving with no deal, parliament hits him with a vote of no confidence and the government falls. (all before the "legal"? leave date)
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 28 Jun 19 at 09:49
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The starting point I think is article 50; we leave two years after giving notice. That date, as 29-03-19, was written into relevant leaving legislation. Another piece of May pig headedness as it looked hard. Logistically it would have been neater to have qualified it as to be specified in a later order.
Subsequently we got extensions to April and then October. The legislation was amended to stay in step. October is written into law but that only reflects the position under the EU treaties.
Prorogation stops Parliament from 'interfering' in that process as it did in run up to March date.
In event of Govt losing no confidence on sole issue of leaving with no deal there would likely be a further extension to allow outcome of a GE. Alternatively, becuase of way fixed term Parliament act works on a vote of no confidence and ignoring possibility of Labour trying to head up a minority govt we could get a Government of National Unity.
One of the LibDem leadership candidates has suggested a National Government led by Hillary Benn or Yvette Cooper. There is though no evidence that either would be up for such a role.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 28 Jun 19 at 10:09
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What happens if (and this is a possible scenario) BoJo say we are leaving with
>> no deal, parliament hits him with a vote of no confidence and the government falls.
>> (all before the "legal"? leave date)
In itself, nothing. You need to repeal or replace the legislation to change anything.
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>> What happens if (and this is a possible scenario) BoJo say we are leaving with
>> no deal, parliament hits him with a vote of no confidence and the government falls.
>> (all before the "legal"? leave date)
Possible? I would suggest it is entirely likely.
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You stupid, worthless, immature, embarrassing s***es.
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48839829
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People are entitled to their opinions but I have no respect for these people at all.
"Brexit Party MEP, David Bull, told BBC Radio 5 Live he and his colleagues turned their backs did so because it was a "federal anthem".
"We were not turning our backs on our European friends and colleagues, we do not believe in a federal European state and an anthem is a symbol of that," he said."
If they don't believe in it they should not stand for election to its parliament, not to mention pocketing the salaries.
Allegedly, a precedent set by the National Socialist German Workers Party
www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/c88z8i/brexit_party_turning_their_backs_to_eu_anthem/
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It's their smug, t***ty behaviour that bothers me, not their opinions.
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These people make me feel ashamed to British. What a second rate country we are becoming.
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>>What a second rate country we are becoming
Indeed we are but when would you say the decline began, CG, and for what main reasons?
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23rd January 2013 when Cameron abdicated from his responsibilty for Government in representative democracy and decided to hold a referendum and passed decision making on a complex issue to the ill informed and uneducated.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Wed 3 Jul 19 at 18:01
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In my view the process started much earlier, probably sometime in the 90s, with the growth of mass media votes on all kinds of things and the hype surrounding them started to convince some sections of society that the public vote albeit uninformed, uneducated and biased in all kinds of undesirable ways, is the only vote that matters
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In my view, Commer, the decline dates from the 1960s and the burgeoning of the permissive society.
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>> In my view, Commer, the decline dates from the 1960s and the burgeoning of the
>> permissive society.
>>
It might be difficult to establish the causality, even if the timeline fits.
Thing about referendums is that they are a gift to demagogues, who seem to me to be the common factor along with general disgruntlement and looking for somebody to blame.
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>> Thing about referendums is that they are a gift to demagogues, who seem to me
>> to be the common factor along with general disgruntlement and looking for somebody to
>> blame.
Certainly the tendency to blame someone else has probably been part of human behaviour at least since the Romans, after all what have they ever done for us?
Immigrants of whatever kind have always been a soft target
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What a mindless, discourteous stupid and utterly futile gesture. What must the rest of Europe think of a nation that elected these cockwombles?
The pictures of this show that anthem was plaid by a group of musicians, not just a recording like GStQ used to be in the cinema. They're turning their backs on real people doing their job.
Farage tried to justify it on the PM programme with some disingenuous carp about EU not being a nation so no need to to follow the 'when in Rome' type dictum about standing for an anthem.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 2 Jul 19 at 19:46
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Missed edit:
I defer to nobody in my dislike of American Imperialism and their current President but sure as hell I'd stand and do what was required by convention on their territory while the anthem was sung.
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#notinmyname Farage you anker.
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I try to stear clear of this thread because it only winds me up but:
I think the word you are looking for is 'puerile' Bromp.
Supposedly mature elected representatives? Pah!
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Was a sad load of a***s! These people represent us in front on an audience of 500 million!
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It's like having embarrassing children who show you up when you are out.
I voted to leave, but if I'd seen the mess that was coming I definitely would not have and I now think we need a second referendum.
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>>You stupid, worthless, immature, embarrassing s***es.
Wouldn't have been surprising if they had showed their bare backsides.
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For the first time since I turned 18, which was not yesterday, I did not vote at the last European elections because I anticipated this sort of thing, and refused to send anyone to Europe in my name, who was only going to disrupt the situation.
Even then, I did not think they would go this far. What do these people think they are doing to any shred of credibility the country has in the political world?
How do the3y think we can reach trade and political agreements with people who they clearly hold in such utter contempt?
Ill mannered morons with zero political credibility.
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Commercial, so why didnt you vote for someone who wouldn’t act like that?
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There wasn't a candidate who had a sniff of bating the brexit party one, regrettably.
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Someone sent me this this morning, which made me chuckle:
A man dies and arrives in Heaven
As he's standing at the Pearly Gates, he notices a huge wall of clocks behind St. Peter
"What are all those clocks?" he asks.
"They're Lie Clocks" replies St. Peter. "Every time someone tells a lie, the hands on their clock move a minute."
"I see" says the man.
"Whose clock is that?" he asks, pointing at the nearest of the clocks.
"That's Mother Theresa's clock" says St. Peter. "Its hands have never moved"
"Wow!" says the man. "That's really something. So whose clock is that one next to it?"
"That's Abraham Lincoln's clock" replies St. Peter. "It's hands have only moved twice."
"Impressive" says the man. "OK, I have to ask, where is Boris Johnson's clock?"
"Ah" says St. Peter. "That's a very special clock. It's just up there, look. We're using it as a ceiling fan."
Last edited by: DP on Wed 3 Jul 19 at 13:23
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Anyone seen Ann Widdecombe's marbles? She seems to have misplaced them.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48869520
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People actually believe that stuff and voted for her.
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Previous volume considered the intended Private Prosecution of Boris Johnson for the offence of Misconduct in Public Office. Johnson subsequently succeeded at Judicial Review and the process was overturned.
Written reasons have now been published:
www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/2019ewhc-1709-admin-johnson-v-westminster-mags-final.pdf
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Did I see a survey at the weekend which said that 61% of voters thought we should crash out of Europe even if it caused harm to the UK?
I think I did.
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Rabid nationalism and xenophobia. I fear for the future.
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You may have seen that 61% of Conservative voters would accept significant damage. And other oddities that come with senility. pbs.twimg.com/media/D9VJwccWsAAZVrk.jpg
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I take that poll to mean that the only thing they dislike more than remaining in the eu is JC becoming PM!
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The most popular thing was Scotland leaving the UK.
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>> Just when Johnson thought Brexit was going to be his biggest problems, chickens have started
>> to come home to roost...
>>
>> www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/uk-recession-risk-01percent-second-quarter-contraction-predicted/ar-AADN49S?li=AA54rU&ocid=mailsignout
>>
Seeing this at work. Clients are really battling financial hardship with orders down across the board and debt turn moving out rapidly.
The cost of stocking up for the earlier Brexit deadline has also impacted their costs.
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>> Just when Johnson thought Brexit was going to be his biggest problems, chickens have started
>> to come home to roost...
>>
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-48881909/sir-john-major-why-i-am-backing-jeremy-hunt>
..and puts the boot in at the end.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48854280
I thought this was interesting, shows the similarities and differences between the tory members and the wider public.
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The two things that the Tory members car less about than the general public are health and the environment, arguably the two things that ultimately must matter most - if your environment is knackered and you lose your health, what else could matter?
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>> The two things that the Tory members car less about than the general public are
>> health and the environment, arguably the two things that ultimately must matter most - if
>> your environment is knackered and you lose your health, what else could matter?
>>
There are a number of "Tories" that i know who are really "pull the ladder up types". They benefited from free universities, social security payouts and medical care and now that they are comfortably off, tell me that they vote Conservative to preserve their wealth, think the NHS should be privatised etc.
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In the cafe this afternoon....
Grumpy man loudly to his group of friends: "I didn't fight in World War 2 to have the EU run our country!"
Young waitress, "No Mr Smith, you certainly didn't fight in World War 2, it ended 7 years before you were born"
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In a cafe the other day, overheard a mum say:
"Yes, well, there's enough troubles in the world without children choking to death on a peanut."
No idea what that was about but it made me laugh.
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In a café yesterday morning:
"Have you any brown sauce?"
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>> children choking to death on a
>> peanut."
Seriously, why do people - not just children - get anaphalactic (spelling?) shock from eating a peanut. They never used to!
What has changed?
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>> >> children choking to death on a
>> >> peanut."
>>
>> Seriously, why do people - not just children - get anaphalactic (spelling?) shock from eating
>> a peanut. They never used to!
>>
>> What has changed?
>>
Peanut oil used in more processed products.
More peanuts & peanut oil generally as population gets wealthier.
Probably just reported as a sickness / death previously. Now we know better.
It previously went unreported, like when people think today is more violent then the past (the good old days) when people were burnt at the stake, transported and the average life span was 35 years!
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>> Probably just reported as a sickness / death previously. Now we know better.
>>
>> It previously went unreported....
I find that very hard to believe.
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Medics definitely think it's an increase rather than just reporting. The "excessive hygiene" theory has some support.
I'm not sure about the hygiene theory. We probably have more showers these days, but most people seem to be rubbish at hand washing.
Also cleaning - My mother (b.1927) and grandmother seemed to clean everything at least weekly with bleach, caustic soda or some other more or less corrosive substance. Now we have gender equality I think we probably make less muck to start with, but the cleaning has gone backwards.
I volunteer in a shop where we handle and weigh out food (OK we don't routinely touch the food itself but we handle bags, utensils etc.) Some of the older volunteers are a bit hit and miss but we have a 15-year-old volunteer who has no idea how to wash his hands - I've actually shown him how to do it properly but he tries to ignore me. He literally rinses his fingertips under running cold water for a few seconds and then dries them.
www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-body/best-way-to-wash-your-hands/
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>> I find that very hard to believe.
I'm not sure I do. Generations were brought up in times when disease, accident and war meant they lived cheek by jowl with death and or mutilation. Infant deaths were commonplace - look in any churchyard. Both my Grandmothers, born in last decade of 19th century, had siblings who didn't make 10 years old.
In the last quarter of the twentieth century, deaths in mines, factories and on the roads began to decline. Post war, at least in UK, child deaths ceased to be seen as something that just happened occasionally as antibiotics and free medical care allowed many more to make it to adulthood. Once sudden death was a rarity people began to question facts around those that still occurred.
And as somebody upthread said it's not that long since peanuts were a rarity and were bought either shell on or with raisins. If you didn't get on with them you avoided them. They and their oil became more commonplace and harder to avoid. We know repeated exposure to trace quantities can trigger anaphylaxis and that it gets worse each time.
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>> >> I find that very hard to believe.
>>
>> I'm not sure I do. Generations were brought up in times when disease, accident and
>> war meant they lived cheek by jowl with death and or mutilation. Infant deaths were
>> commonplace - look in any churchyard. Both my Grandmothers, born in last decade of 19th
>> century, had siblings who didn't make 10 years old.
I remain unconvinced.
I have my maternal grandmother's bible. In the back she listed some of her children that died at various ages. Seven - possibly nine - died, the oldest was 17.
I am one of the oldest posters on here. I can only remember one child dying before I became an adult.
Last edited by: Duncan on Mon 8 Jul 19 at 15:03
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Its because we put processed peanut products in food. It was fine when it was just the nut eaten on the shell. Most food based clergies are because the product is processed in some way.
Ironically, if all who had allergies were killed by their allergy, we wouldn't have any allergies. in a few generations.
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Off-off topic, but peanut oil is the best oil for dressing lettuce.
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Sesame oil is great for fried eggs
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>> I remain unconvinced.
>>
>> I have my maternal grandmother's bible. In the back she listed some of her children
>> that died at various ages. Seven - possibly nine - died, the oldest was 17.
I didn't mean deaths were unmarked or unmourned but rather that sudden death, whether in childhood or amongst those working in mines, factories etc was something that happened.
The dead were buried and life carried on.
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Since my overheard peanut comment excited some small discussion, let me add another two, both overheard today in another cafe. First was:
"Yes, but what am I going to EAT in Bristol?"
Must be some deep story there. And the second was a man talking about a dog to a woman:
Man: "I reckon it was a greyhound cross."
Woman: "With what?"
Man: "With something."
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Perhaps it was cross with him? Did he have any obvious injuries?
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...seen here in Canada, where cannabis has recently been decriminalised....
Poster "Don't drink and drive" annotated in someone's fair hand ..
......."Smoke dope and fly"
;-)
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Saw a printed sign yesterday that said "Life Bouy" and someone had written the word "Live" in front of it. I liked that.
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>> I didn't mean deaths were unmarked or unmourned
Me neither.
I meant that the death rate among children in the nineteenth and early twentieth century was high. There has been a very long decrease in infant and child mortality, up until this year, I believe.
www.pbs.org/fmc/timeline/dmortality.htm
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"Seriously, why do people - not just children - get anaphalactic (spelling?) shock from eating a peanut. They never used to!"
Actually not many do die from anaphylactic shock. The few cases that occur are massively reported by the media especially where children are concerned
For the five years from 2012 to 2016 10 children died in England and Wales from food allergies of all types , not just peanuts.
As regards "allergies" generally it does seem to be one of those things that seem to be rather fashionable. People never seem to say now that the don't like cheese say. Much more acceptable to say they are allergic to it. Makes them bit special I guess.
Not saying that some people dont have genuine allergies. Obviously they do but a lot of people claiming allergies and intolerances are just plain faddy about food
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I get an allergic reaction in the mouth if I eat a Brazil nut. Bit of swelling and a burning feeling. It passes. Any other nuts no issue.
Have been on a couple of flights recently where due to a passenger having a nut allergy no products containing nuts would be served at all on the plane.
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"...due to a passenger having a nut allergy"
I've heard this so many times on recent flights that I'm beginning to think the aitlines are just playing safe. Can't say I blame them.
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 9 Jul 19 at 00:34
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I'm allegic to penicillin. I never knew until I was in hospital after an RTA in my teens and a young nurse told me to
"Drop 'em and get on the bed!"
The result wasn't what i was hoping for :-(
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>> As regards "allergies" generally it does seem to be one of those things that seem
>> to be rather fashionable. People never seem to say now that the don't like cheese
>> say. Much more acceptable to say they are allergic to it. Makes them bit special
>> I guess.
>>
>> Not saying that some people dont have genuine allergies. Obviously they do but a lot
>> of people claiming allergies and intolerances are just plain faddy about food
I don't know the numbers but not sure I accept that 'a lot' of allergies are just about faddiness.
One of the folks who went over to GoF Village Pub, might have been Alanovic, described in graphic terms how shellfish allergy affected him. Also true that many allergies and intolerances manifest themselves without full on anaphylactic shock. All sorts of things, particularly dairy and wine, send my son's eczema off scale. He loves both cheese and red wine and will occasionally partake moderately but it bites him in 24-36 hours when he's blotchy and itchy for several days. Same if he overdoes beer.
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A few years ago I was home alone and ate something that gave me a reaction and felt a bit unwell. I looked in the mirror and my face had swollen up and my lips were getting bigger.
I walked the mile to the hospital - (have you seen the cost of parking!) and went to A&E.
They took one look at me and whisked me in to a doctor, bypassing the people who had been waiting. By the time I had walked the mile, my face had ballooned and my lips looked liked they had been stung by several bees.
Luckily all was well and after some drugs and about 8 hours Mrs Z was allowed to take me home.
The doctor was absolutely livid that I hadn't called an ambulance though because if i had passed out on the walk to hospital, it would have probably have been too late to do anything.
The bins had been emptied by the time we got home and so we never did find out the cause and a round of tests didn't either, but I carry an Epipen just in case.
Last edited by: zippy on Tue 9 Jul 19 at 14:00
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The BBC is headlining this item as "Civil servants do hokey-cokey on no-deal Brexit", but when you click on the item it shows a different title, but refers to 'the hokey cokey' in the text.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48883817
Everyone knows that I am no pedant, but why 'hokey cokey'?
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>>Everyone knows that I am no pedant, but why 'hokey cokey'?
in, out, in, out
you shake it all about
You do the hokey cokey
and you turn around
that's what it's all about
Sort of description for staff moved in number from one post to another and back again....
Not convinced I didn't hear the term 'staff hokey cokey' used somewhere I worked where people were routinely rotated between posts. Aim was to keep skills sharp for cross cover and to ensure people didn't spend all their time going stale in same routine.
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48912063 talks about the main Labour-supporting unions backing referendums and Labour leaning towards supporting Remain (I think).
So would it be cynical of me to assume that this is Labour's effort to win an election, by getting the support of Remain voters, should one be forced somehow?
I wonder how many Tory remainers would vote for Labour if one occurred.
(Fwiw I am a Tory remainer (who has wavered in the past on both counts) but I wouldn't vote for Labour simply so that we remained. And anyway I have believed for some time that we're past the point of no return with BREXIT, and we should just make the best of it.)
Last edited by: smokie on Tue 9 Jul 19 at 00:43
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>> So would it be cynical of me to assume that this is Labour's effort to
>> win an election, by getting the support of Remain voters, should one be forced somehow?
As a supporter of Labour, if not it's current leader, I'm banging my head against a wall over this mash up.
Policy seems to be that if Johnson/Hunt are forced to hold a referendum then Labour will campaign for remain. If however there is a GE Labour will present a case for negotiating their own form of Brexit. According to the Guardian:
The joint position agreed by the unions on Monday would not commit Labour to an explicitly pro-remain position in all circumstances: unions also agreed Labour should seek to deliver a Brexit deal if the party won an election before the UK left the EU.
What the hell is wrong with saying Brexit was mis-sold, the populace were lied to over and over. None of the promises made are deliverable. The EU is far from being a perfect organisation but we're infinitely better off in; sell a positive view of it and commit to remain and reform.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 9 Jul 19 at 08:33
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>>
>> What the hell is wrong with saying Brexit was mis-sold, the populace were lied to
>> over and over. None of the promises made are deliverable. The EU is far from
>> being a perfect organisation but we're infinitely better off in; sell a positive view of
>> it and commit to remain and reform.
>>
Well you would be telling those who voted Brexit they were gullible and were wrong in voting the way they did. Since Brexit has now become a sort of religion in which you either believe or are some sort of heretic. We are way beyond the point of logical argument. Labour Brexit supporters would most likely vote for the Brexit Party and Labour’s vote in the North would collapse leaving no chance of a Labour victory.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Tue 9 Jul 19 at 09:04
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What the hell is wrong with saying Brexit was mis-sold, the populace were lied to
>> over and over. None of the promises made are deliverable. The EU is far from being a perfect organisation but we're infinitely better off in; sell a positive view of it and commit to remain and reform.
>>
In the same boat, but to a slightly lesser extent, as the conservative party. Neither want to split their party or loose lots of votes. Its a tight rope both parties are on.
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>> Its a tight rope both parties are on.
>>
And neither has any real credibility left with either voters or the eu
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>> What the hell is wrong with saying Brexit was mis-sold, the populace were lied to
>> over and over. None of the promises made are deliverable. The EU is far from
>> being a perfect organisation but we're infinitely better off in; sell a positive view of
>> it and commit to remain and reform.
Everything.
The rules were set, the game was played, the result is the result and who is to say it is the wrong one? The EU is still a deeply flawed entity of which we should not need to be a part. That is not to say that we should not be closely linked both politically and economically but that is different to full membership.
You can complain about the misrepresentation but that applied to both sides.
The problem is one of execution. Not having had a plan, having a referendum regardless, and then making almost no progress since the referendum. We are still nowhere near ready to leave, and what I would agree with is that we should not do so anytime this year or probably next.
Sensible parties would both want a transition period of years with sufficient agreement around it and what follows to remove uncertainty and to provide the stability that we now desperately need.
Given that the chances of that happening seem remote, we have what can fairly be described as a crisis. Both Bozo and Hunt propose to bring it to an end by leaving in 2019 with no deal if necessary.* That is not wise because it will not remove or much reduce uncertainty until a new model is in place. What we need is an agreed plan and a pause. Probably the only way to achieve that quickly would be to pass the WA by that or any other name. If parliament manages to block no-deal, there must be a strong possibility that we will end up with May's agreement, backstop and all. That is perhaps the best we can hope for from an economy point of view.
*Yes I know that is a negotiating tactic. So does the EU, funnily enough. They don't want no-deal either, but I believe they have priced it in and will hold their line anyway. The only concession I can see them making is something cosmetic, a fig-leaf to facilitate a UK climbdown on the backstop.
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All this, while Trump shows how effectively pointless the UK is on the world stage.
I'm sure my children with thank the Brexiteers in years to come.
Not.
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>>
>> All this, while Trump shows how effectively pointless the UK is on the world stage.
Now you don't strike me as the sort of person to hold much sway by what trump says or does.
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tic
New ambassador to US to be Lord Farage of Dulwich. Nigel gets the peerage he wants, Trump gets the ambassador he wants and, bereft of it's figurehead, the Brexit Party collapses into internecine warfare.
/tic
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The Moron in Chief has now lost the plot completely.
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>> The Moron in Chief has now lost the plot completely.
And the person who's giong to have to deal with it is Boris:
www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/09/ambassador-leak-trump-not-in-a-mood-to-let-this-pass
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The fidiot needs to get over himself. Like US Ambassadors have not given scathing assessments of various UK politicians.
And what is the difference between what the UK Ambassador said about Trump compared to what Trump says about May.
He really is a prize tit.
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>> He really is a prize tit.
With a finger on the nuclear tit.....
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Kim Darroch has resigned because Boris, the PM apparent, effectively threw him under a bus in last night's debate.
www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/10/kim-darroch-effectively-sacked-by-johnson-on-the-orders-of-trump
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>> Pretty much everything Manatee said.
However ridiculous the referendum set up, however awful the lies, the vote was to leave. That hasn't gone away nor do I believe it has substantially changed.
The fact that it has been an absolute basket case since then is shameful and embarrassing but doesn't change the referendum result.
I do not understand how anybody involved in Brexit has kept their jobs nor how people like Corbyn have kept their credibility. But there you are.
As I have been saying for some time, those who wanted Brexit should have backed TM's deal. We're going to get it anyway.
That aside, we voted to leave, committed to leave, and what tiny amount of credibility we have left will disappear as we turn into a laughing stock if we do not leave.
The damage has been done anyway. No company or corporation will ever be exposed to the whim of the UK Government and it's electorate ever again.
I don't think the politicians and voters realise just how much control they are losing and will continue to lose, but there you are. What are you going do.
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I love it when trump goes off on one like this, it merely reinforces how monumentally dysfunctional he is. he has merely given the commentary about him added weight.
Of course Bojo (duel nationality - half american remember) has rushed to his defence and promised to sack the ambassador when he gets power. Someone else completely dysfunctional.
I am thoroughly ashamed to be British that its come to this, we end up as the laughing stock of the world with a clown like Bojo as our PM.
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>> I am thoroughly ashamed to be British that its come to this, we end up
>> as the laughing stock of the world with a clown like Bojo as our PM.
>>
I think this is the first time I've posted in a political discussion on here, but I couldn't help it in this instance. I agree with every word of the above.
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It is deeply embarrassing and the reaction is sometimes laughter, sometimes pity, and sometimes disbelief.
I cannot imagine what future generations will think of what we've done.
EDIT: to be clear, the issue is not that we are leaving, rather the way we are dealing with leaving.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Tue 9 Jul 19 at 20:42
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"I cannot imagine what future generations will think of what we've done.
EDIT: to be clear, the issue is not that we are leaving, rather the way we are dealing with leaving."
I believe that remainers and leavers alike are in agreement that the whole process has been handled very badly indeed - I doubt that the history books can present it in any other way. As to what future generations will think of our decision to leave the EU - that is rather more subjective. With the benefit of hindsight, how do present generations feel about our parents'/grandparents' decision to reject the last great European unification project?
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I rather suspect that the history of our departure from the EU and economic and political decline will be seen as a lesson in the folly of abdicating from the responsibility of government and passing decision making to the masses via referendums.
I anticipate we will once more be heart of the EU within fifteen years albeit with considerably less influence.
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> I anticipate we will once more be heart of the EU within fifteen years albeit
>> with considerably less influence.
>>
15 years, far too soon. If it were to happen, more 50 years or more.
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>> As to what future generations will think of our decision to leave the EU - that is rather more subjective. With the benefit of hindsight, how do present generations feel about our parents'/grandparents' decision to reject the last great European unification project
You would put yourself as a remain voter on the same level as somebody who fought in a war?
Fancy yourself much?
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"Fancy yourself much?"
Not really but, in my lifetime, I have seen the EU grow from half a dozen trading nations into a 28 nation super-state with other waiting in the wings. With Charles Michel and Ursula von der Leyen moving into position, we can only expect more 'Europe'. With ambitions for an EU army (please tell me this was fake news), it's no wonder the Russians are watching nervously.
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>> Not really but, in my lifetime, I have seen the EU grow from half a
>> dozen trading nations into a 28 nation super-state with other waiting in the wings. With
>> Charles Michel and Ursula von der Leyen moving into position, we can only expect more
>> 'Europe'. With ambitions for an EU army (please tell me this was fake news), it's
>> no wonder the Russians are watching nervously.
I think historians will differ on whether it's yet a superstate with most saying it's a trading and economic alliance of sovereign nations. If proof were needed of the sovereignty it's not EU that are stopping UK leaving but the incompetence suma cum laude of our own politicians.
Bit early to say what direction of travel will be under new Commission. The appointment of Ursula von der Leyen is not yet confirmed. Whether there is more 'Europe' or some kind of Army (and visions differ) is not for the Commission alone. They will also need to get such change past the Council of Ministers. Hungary and Poland are both straining at the leash of democracy and several other national governments are in degrees sceptic as to further integration.
If the Russians are nervous I'd regard that as a win particularly given the moron who is currently Commander in Chief in the US.
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"If the Russians are nervous........."
I forgot to add that Beethoven's 9th is a great marching tune!
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>> With the benefit of hindsight, how
>> do present generations feel about our parents'/grandparents' decision to reject the last great European unification
>> project?
>>
Our parents and grandparents didn't decide to "reject the last great European unification project".
They didn't have the luxury of taking that decision. It was taken for them, using conscription from 1916 to 1920 and 1939 to 1960.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_Kingdom
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So Boris Johnson's genius answer to the 'border issue' is that we don't have to do it by 31st October when we leave, we can do it in the implementation period afterwards?
And where, you mindless, blithering idiot, does an implementation period come from if we have no withdrawal agreement and leave with no deal?
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>> So Boris Johnson's genius answer to the 'border issue' is that we don't have to
>> do it by 31st October when we leave, we can do it in the implementation
>> period afterwards?
>>
>> And where, you mindless, blithering idiot, does an implementation period come from if we have
>> no withdrawal agreement and leave with no deal?
Hunt, for all his trot out lines about his entrepreneurship, master negotiator skills in NHS and his 'marginal' constituency (it was even a Tory hold in 1997) was undoubtedly the more convincing of the two. But the party is dominated by people for whom Brexit is the Be all and End all*. All they want is out on 31-10-2019 and they judge BoJo as a better bet for that and/or an election.
The fact that he's an 'intellectual idiot' with not the slightest grasp of detail seems to pass them by.
*A large number of people joined the party to ex UKIP to ensure Brexit. If they'd been lefties in Labour the Daily Heil would have been shouting 'entryism' from the roof tops.
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"the party is dominated by people for whom Brexit is the Be all and End all*"
I suspect this has been adopted by many of them, like it or not, as they wouldn't want to be seen as people who stymied BREXIT (with the added possibility of letting Labour in if BREXITing dragged on any more).
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I've pretty much given up trying to work out what is actually in their minds.
I'm reduced to wondering whether they have always been *this* stupid and shortsighted and I just haven't realised or that they have recently been kidnapped and replaced with aliens.
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>> or that they have recently been kidnapped and replaced with aliens.
Don't tell me there are more people sneaking into the UK in an uncontrolled manner?>> I've pretty much given up trying to work out what is actually in their minds. :-)
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>> Don't tell me there are more people sneaking into the UK in an uncontrolled manner?>>
>> I've pretty much given up trying to work out what is actually in their minds.
>> :-)
Oh its easy, patently obvious. Tenure. The only thing that exists in a modern politicians mind is maintaining tenure. What can they say or do to ensure they continue to keep their noses in the trough.
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"Oh its easy, patently obvious. Tenure. The only thing that exists in a modern politicians mind is maintaining tenure. What can they say or do to ensure they continue to keep their noses in the trough."
And even better if they could get their snouts into the EU trough.........
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Certainly Farage has done exceptionally well out of the EU trough, and continues to do so.
But I think even he would take a UK political job if he could find one that was both within his capabilities and that he could get voted into.
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>> Certainly Farage has done exceptionally well out of the EU trough, and continues to do
>> so.
>>
>> But I think even he would take a UK political job if he could find
>> one that was both within his capabilities and that he could get voted into.
>
You over estimate him
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Legal Action over Inaction. - Bromptonaut
