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IMPORTANT - PLEASE READ
Before discussions start in this thread, I would like to point out that any petty arguments, personal attacks, or any other infringement of house rules, etc. will be deleted where we feel fit from now on.
We will not give notice that we have deleted something. Nor will we enter into discussion why something was deleted. That will also be deleted.
It seems that discussion about Brexit brings out the worst in some people.
Be nice, Play nice, and control your temper. Your co-operation would be appreciated.
Last edited by: VxFan on Fri 24 May 19 at 12:42
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It seems the Toad-in-the-Chair will now allow a third vote as the new proposal is only for a part of the previous withdrawal agreement. How likely is that to get past the House?
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>> How likely is that to get past the House?
The DUP will apparently vote against as will 20-30 hard core Brexiteer Tories. Labour will also vote against but expect a few to defy the whip and abstain or vote with the Ayes.
On those figures it's hard to see it passing. As suggested above it's a last throw of the dice and perhaps a political device to allow Tories to go into an election painting Labour as the party that blocked our exit.
Although there's not much in the WA that Labour disagree with their line is that as May's successor is almost bound to be a confirmed Brexiter they're not voting for the WA to allow that person to pursue a 'blind' Brexit.
My guess is it will fail but by tens rather than hundreds.
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Surely the PM would have to go anyway after a third loss on her WA?
I guess if this is voted down it's no deal.
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Yes 286, No 344. Now what?
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She has mis-managed this process from start to finish and was denying reality right up until an hour ago.
Aside from anything else that may or may not happen, how can her position be viable? She has no support for anything.
I don't know what will happen, but the truth is they should have agreed her plan and that would have given two years to sort it out. And, in all honesty, a passable job could have been done.
General Election time, I guess.
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To quote again the observation of a friend who spent his entire career on the House of Commons staff, the job of Prime Minister drives people mad. If not mad, I think Theresa May must at least be suffering from autism, since she appears impervious to other people's feelings or perhaps suffers from a type of obsessive compulsive personality disorder; in her case, a pathological stubbornness.
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For no very good reason, I decided to go up to Parliament Square today. I have never seen it so busy!
Palace Green is cordoned off for use by the media, with admission controlled by security guards checking passes. Every nutter on the planet was there. Not just the leavers/remainers, but the religious nutters who had managed to draw a Biblical inference from the Brexit negotiations.
Not wishing to disappoint anyone here, I made a point of going into Wetherspoons in Whitehall. It was absolutely rammed, and the noise! I got myself a steak and Doom Bar ale pie, with a nice pint of London Pride (the Doom Bar had finished). Very nice! Very reasonable!
Going from the ridiculous to the sublime, I finished off in The National Gallery. Then train from Waterloo back to leafy Surrey.
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I'm a member of the Conservative Party these days and I can tell you that our constituency association is beyond despair at the handling of Brexit.
With local elections coming in May, the one thing our canvasser find, on the doorsteps, is disgust at politicians in general and the Maybot in particular.
Many, even known Tory voters, are saying they will not vote at all in in the May locals. We have already lost party members.
CCHQ (the former Central Office) and those who hang with the party grandees and most Tory MPs, do not care a flying fish for the grass-roots and their opinions or desires.
We will be hammered at the Locals.
The Labour (aka the Marxist )Party are in no better shape nationally, I think.
Last edited by: Roger. on Sat 30 Mar 19 at 10:55
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Revoke Article 50 and have a General Election and restore some sanity to politics. First law to be passed should be the banning of referendums.
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....whilst I would love to see Article 50 revoked, the problem with that and a GE is that the issue isn't a party-political one, views are split within (the two major) parties, and thus makes setting out a manifesto for an election problematic (remember, last time both parties stood on a Brexit, albeit they might have been on methods with detail differences).
If a party is prepared to stand up and say that, even without referring to the people again with a referendum, in the country's interest, if elected they will immediately revoke Article 50, and will not pursue Brexit again within its term of Government, things could be very different (but frankly, I don't see that happening).
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>> Revoke Article 50
You can see the problem with that - the referendum result. So we would really need a GE and a major party to stand on that manifesto (doomed as they will lose a massive proportion of their usual vote) or another referendum.
I'm no fan of May given both her politics and her personality, but I'm coming to the view that the mess isn't mostly her fault. There is no consensus or any hint of a blueprint that will command a majority. Perhaps May knew that a committee would never reach a decision and it is why she attempted to handle negotiations the way she did.
I suggested a week or two ago that the EU should offer a 2 month or a 5 year deferral, and nothing in between. If three years wasn't enough to create the unicorn, maybe we need longer and 5 years would mean it has to be a cross-party job.
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We will be hammered at the Locals.
I'm not sure the Conservatives will be. Who else will people vote for? Very low turnout nearly always those in office.
There could be a surprise turn up for independents but not enough to change things in a big way.
>> The Labour (aka the Marxist )Party are in no better shape nationally, I think.
>>
>>
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>> >> The Labour (aka the Marxist )Party are in no better shape nationally, I think.
And there is the rub, the country is being thrown down the hole for party politics and political dogma.
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>> And there is the rub, the country is being thrown down the hole for party
>> politics and political dogma.
Interesting take on yesterday's shenanigans from Ian Dunt on Politics.co.uk:
www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/29/brexit-day-is-cancelled-may-s-final-deception-falls-apart
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>> I'm a member of the Conservative Party these days and I can tell you that
>> our constituency association is beyond despair at the handling of Brexit.
Genuine question, where/how do they think it's gone wrong?
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>>
>> Genuine question, where/how do they think it's gone wrong?
>>
It went wrong when on 23rd January 2013 when David Cameron announced in his "Bloomberg Speech" that a referendum would be held on the UK's membership of the EU.
He did this because he believed it would end the rift in his party between pro and anti European members of the party and believed that with the support of the Lib Dems the referendum would never get through parliament.
However, the Lib Dems didn't do well in the subsequent general election and the referendum happened and subsequently screwed up the country for the last 3 years because of an internal argument within the Tory party.
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@Zippy,
I'm on exactly same page and line as you as to where I think it went wrong.
My interest now is in how/what Roger's fellow members think May screwed up after she accepted the chalice.....
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Sat 30 Mar 19 at 18:49
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the country for the last 3 years because of an
>> internal argument within the Tory party.
>>
It was much wider than that. If it wasn't we wouldn't be were we are now.
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>> Genuine question, where/how do they think it's gone wrong?
>>
By her being a Remainer all along and not believing in what she was supposed to do, ie get us out.
In negotiation you always start very high with your price/wishes.
"Hello Mr. EU rep. we are leaving on the 29th March 2019 - what are you going to offer to make it worth OUR while to make special trade arrangements with you rather than our leaving on WTO terms - which, by the way, work pretty well for countries outwith the EU. May I remind you that we buy more from the EU than you buy from us!"
Hardball start.
See what comes back and don't roll over like a supplicant dog.
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>> pretty well for countries outwith the EU. May I remind you that we buy more
>> from the EU than you buy from us!"
>> Hardball start.
BZZZZZ Wrong. good job you are not a negotiator.
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>> BZZZZZ Wrong. good job you are not a negotiator.
Roger's answer was pretty much word for word what I'd expected it to be. The negotiating approach is seriously mistaken. Much as they welcome their trade with us it was quite evident from word go that they wouldn't let us have all the benefits of being in without the costs and burden sharing that go with it. And for all Mercedes, BMW, champagne houses etc might be edgy about barriers other sectors, particularly banking, finance and services in general will be only too keen to grab London's trade. Indeed that's already happened.
The idea the May is a remainer who is somehow conspiring to keep us in is delusional. While she tactically aligned herself with remain in 2016 she did beggar all to campaign and was previously seen as a Eurosceptic. Her red lines on free movement, out of EEA/Customs Union and free of the ECJ effectively ruled out all compromise 'softer' deals that might have got cross party support.
News this morning is that her own party may try to deny her the Election she's threatening. Those noises are coming from both remain and leave wings. I suspect they owe more to pragmatism than principle. She's a useless campaigner and there's every chance that Corbyn, who's been a campaigner all his life will best her at the hustings leading to many losing seats. Others will struggle to be re-selected.
The fact that Members will contemplate
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>>Much as they welcome their trade with us it was quite evident from word go that they
>>wouldn't let us have all the benefits of being in without the costs and burden sharing that
>>go with it. And for all Mercedes, BMW, champagne houses etc might be edgy about
>>barriers other sectors, particularly banking, finance and services in general will be only too >>keen to grab London's trade. Indeed that's already happened.
Yes. Whilst giving Japan and Singapore free trade agreements.
My employer has moved 300+ highly paid jobs to the continent with several £billions of investments. The tax on the profits they generate will be paid there, not here.
When we asked for a free trade agreement with Japan they said "Though". We are not as powerful as Europe.
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n WTO terms - which, by the way, work pretty well for countries outwith the EU
Really? And how does that cover services?
p.s. No they don't. Tired, wrong and overly simplistic, the sort of thing that lowlifes like Farage rely on.
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Unfortunately most Brexiteers don't give a rat's about economic impact.
They want their little piece of isolationism and will be delighted to watch India, Brazil and Korea's GDP rip past the remnants of the UK.
At least property will be cheaper in London as the banks move out.
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Four votes tonight....
Motion C: Committing the government to negotiating "a permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union with the EU" as part of any Brexit deal - proposed by Tory former chancellor Ken Clarke
So if this is approved it would appear to mean that the UK cannot leave without agreeing a permanent customs union.
Motion D: Referred to as Common Market 2.0, this option would mean joining the European Free Trade Association and European Economic Area - proposed by Tory MP Nick Boles
So if this is approved it would appear to mean that the UK cannot leave without agreeing a permanent customs union.
Motion E: This is for a confirmatory referendum, giving the public a vote to approve any Brexit deal passed by Parliament before it can be implemented - proposed by Labour MPs Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson
Second referendum.
Motion G: The motion aims to prevent the UK leaving without a deal, including a vote on whether to revoke Article 50 - stopping Brexit - if the EU does not agree to an extension - proposed by the SNP's Joanna Cherry
Prevent no deal, potential stopping Brexit or at least delaying it.
So two BEANOs, one Second Referendum and one trying to prevent no deal.
Clearly we have moved on.
Not.
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I think we might have moved on a little.
If there is a majority for the Customs Union motion and no other then I think we will see a motion posing a choice between the Theresa May Deal and the Customs Union Deal.
We can then go forwarsd with the preferred deal.
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Do we honestly think that Brexit supporters who are not concerned with the economy or finances of the country but solely with this need for some kind of fantasy Empire based self-determination will accept it?
I doubt it, and if they understood it properly they certainly wouldn't.
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Though thinking further, perhaps you have a point. But presumably only if there are just two alternatives and one of them must be chosen.
If there remains the idea of further, albeit fantasy, alternatives then I suspect that we definitely haven't moved forward.
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Yes hopefullly just two alternatives. Fantasy stuff hopefully wont get a majority and will be dropped. The customs union idea has the best chance of a majority.
Both the TM deal of course and a customs union deal would be acceptable to the EU.
Last edited by: CGNorwich on Mon 1 Apr 19 at 19:24
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>> Do we honestly think that Brexit supporters who are not concerned with the economy or
>> finances of the country but solely with this need for some kind of fantasy Empire
>> based self-determination will accept it?
>>
>> I doubt it, and if they understood it properly they certainly wouldn't.
>>
>>
There are so many people that I have met who believe that the "Great" in "Great Britain" equates to "Superior Britain", rather than the original geographical reference to "Greater Brittany" and it is these people that probably believed that the EU and rest of the world would roll over and offer us super deals.
I have even met some that have seriously believed a UKIP candidate when they were told that some ex-colonial counties were even willing to "come back in to the fold" what ever that meant!
Last edited by: zippy on Mon 1 Apr 19 at 19:50
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Colonial counties? Not sure I know what it means either.
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It could be an amazing year. Who'd have thought we'd see the end of May before the end of April.
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Fidiots.
The results of the votes were:
Motion C: Committing the government to negotiating "a permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union with the EU" as part of any Brexit deal - proposed by Tory former chancellor Ken Clarke - lost by 273 votes for to 276 votes against
Motion D: Referred to as Common Market 2.0, this option would mean joining the European Free Trade Association and European Economic Area - proposed by Tory MP Nick Boles - lost by 261 votes for to 282 votes against
Motion E: This is for a confirmatory referendum, giving the public a vote to approve any Brexit deal passed by Parliament before it can be implemented - proposed by Labour MPs Peter Kyle and Phil Wilson - lost by 280 votes for to 292 votes against
Motion G: The motion aims to prevent the UK leaving without a deal, including a vote on whether to revoke Article 50 - stopping Brexit - if the EU does not agree to an extension - proposed by the SNP's Joanna Cherry - lost by 191 votes for to 292 votes against
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good to see parliament has taken control
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C, D and E are all close to the line now. Another day of this on Wednesday and we might get somewhere. Something like this should have been done over two years ago, probably before A50 letter was sent. Given the timescale we're working in it's perhaps surprising they cannot be more decisive but I'm not sure I'd write process off.
In meantime gov's majority is further reduced as Nick Boles has crossed the floor.
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Looking at some of the numbers on the votes, I'm surprised that a fair few Labour MPs abstained on the CM vote around 30 of them and the LD vote seems to have split.
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The LDs were clearly divided on both Customs Union and CM2.0 Only Norman Lamb voted in favour of CU - the rest abstained or voted against. On CM 2.0 Farron joined Lamb in the Ayes. Rest again split between No and abstain.
On Public Vote all were Yes and on the Cherry motion (Extend/revoke A50) all voted for except Lamb who abstained.
www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/apr/01/how-did-each-mp-vote-on-the-second-round-of-indicative-votes#table
Default sort is alphabetical but can be sorted by party or constituency by clicking on the column headers.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 2 Apr 19 at 11:46
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I wonder how many MPs, especially Conservative MPs, would prefer a hard exit and are pushing things that way, but without wanting to be seen to be doing so.
More than none, I'm quite sure.
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I'm sure that was the split, I'm just surprised that they split. Looks like all the main parties aren't sure what they should vote for.
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"We have been attempting to squeeze into just a couple of days a process that really should have been happening for the last two years - a process of trying to build a consensus around the best way forward" - Labour MP Yvette Cooper
No s***, Sherlock. Everybody other than the UK politicians already knew that!!
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47789298
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47794235
Looks like another extension and the PM saying she wants to work with JC. All sounds vaguely familiar from a month ago. In the next day or so we'll see if it has a different outcome to last time.
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>> www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47794235
>>
>> Looks like another extension and the PM saying she wants to work with JC. All
>> sounds vaguely familiar from a month ago. In the next day or so we'll see
>> if it has a different outcome to last time.
So she's down a massive hole and still digging.
Now wants the Labour leader whom she's repeatedly belittled and ignored since 2016 to be 'statesmanlike' and pass her a rope to climb up. But she still demands that her withdrawal agreement prevails?
I worry for her mental health.
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I worry for my mental health.
Three years of banging my head against the wall is beginning to take it's toll.
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> So she's down a massive hole and still digging.
>>
>> Now wants the Labour leader whom she's repeatedly belittled and ignored since 2016 to be 'statesmanlike' and pass her a rope to climb up. But she still demands that her withdrawal agreement prevails?
>>
>> I worry for her mental health.
>>
Might well come to nothing, iirc he refused to go to the meeting last time.
Her WA will have to pass or its no deal. You can't have a future until you've sorted the withdrawal. Unless there's some other way, but from what I've read that's the rules for those leaving the EU.
Last edited by: sooty123 on Tue 2 Apr 19 at 19:44
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>> Her WA will have to pass or its no deal. You can't have a future
>> until you've sorted the withdrawal. Unless there's some other way, but from what I've read
>> that's the rules for those leaving the EU.
If we are to leave then yes, there needs to be a withdrawal agreement. But, if we remove her red line etc, it doesn't need to be current version.
Leaving on current WA leaves us open to a future relationship on terms dictated by Gove, Johnson or Raab. Ironically, given my politics, I'd regard Gove as least worst of current front runners.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Tue 2 Apr 19 at 20:08
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If we are to leave then yes, there needs to be a withdrawal agreement. But,
>> if we remove her red line etc, it doesn't need to be current version.
That's not my understanding. That the WA is the only one on the table and that needs to be signed first is the line from the EU as per EU law, red lines or not.
There seems to be some frustration from the EU about this talk of CM, EFTA etc are unrealistic as you can't talk about post EU trade deals until we've left.
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So, the Commons has managed to agree on one resolution, and now the Lords is trying to filibuster it.
Brexit is now no longer brexit, its now our form of government on trial - We need to completely dump the Lords, and the peerages, chuck out the commons two party adversarial system and first past the post voting, and move to some form of stifling PR, so that no single group of people can screw stuff up badly again.
Neither the electorate, nor the elected can be trusted responsibility again.
Last edited by: Zero on Thu 4 Apr 19 at 22:36
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In that case I nominate and vote for myself to be Benevolent Dictator. There will be no other candidates.
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You can’t. Zero has already taken the Dictator job. He didn’t care for the benevolent bit though.
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>> You can’t. Zero has already taken the Dictator job. He didn’t care for the benevolent
>> bit though.
Not sure I ever specified that as a requirement,
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>> We need to completely dump the Lords, and the peerages, chuck out the commons two
>> party adversarial system and first past the post voting, and move to some form of
>> stifling PR, so that no single group of people can screw stuff up badly again.
>>
>>
>> Neither the electorate, nor the elected can be trusted responsibility again.
Interesting proposition I think the view of the political class will be that the current mess demonstrates that parliament only works with two main parties so more often that not one has a clear majority and the government controls what is put before the house. So they will be more opposed than ever to PR.
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www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47861605
Jesus what some Fidiots.
You don't like TM's deal and one of the complaints was that we remain under EU 'control'. So rather than leave with a transition deal for 19 months, we'll delay leaving by a year.
Fidiots.
And if it happens, the Government in general and TM in particular will fall apart long before we get there.
What a bunch of clowns.
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Beginning to believe Brexit will never happen.
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Brexit failing will be a disaster. Failing is not the same as being deliberately cancelled.
Our politicians are ridiculous and incompetent, selfish, self-motivated, and do not have the best for the country at heart.
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So, a delay until October 31, I hear.
Surely enough time to trash this ridiculous Government and vote for a new one?
It's going to give the aspiring leaders of the Tory party an issue though. That's a long time to keep your head below the parapet. You could become irrelevant and forgotten in that time.
But then, perhaps a big risk to poke your nose in right now.
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 11 Apr 19 at 00:42
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.....I understand that last night's delay in announcing the new arrangement was because the EU were considering paying us £39bn to leave........
;-)
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De Gaulle was right to reject our initial application. Macron was right to press for a no-deal and rapid Brexit, wrong only to give way.
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Another word we'll be seeing a lot more of.
"brextension"
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>> .....I understand that last night's delay in announcing the new arrangement was because the EU
>> were considering paying us £39bn to leave........
>>
>> ;-)
I love the story of the French Minister who calls her cat Brexit because it keeps miaowing to be let our out but when she opens the door it won't go.
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Coincidentally, I think her name is L'oiseau - bird!
8o)
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The upcoming European elections will bring us a new level of steaming poo politically I fear.
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I am appalled that given extra time to sort stuff out, our parliamentarians immediately decide that means they can reinstate their easter holiday.
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>> I am appalled that given extra time to sort stuff out, our parliamentarians immediately decide
>> that means they can reinstate their easter holiday.
I've long been puzzled by idea that MP's are on holiday when house is not sitting.
Given how sparsely attended most debates are and that Hon Members only emerge when Division Bell rings I'm not sure House in Session = progress. During recess there will still be duty Minsters on call and day to day business carries on. Whitehall tends to shut down in late July/August but otherwise stuff carries on as normal.
Maybe, just maybe, they'll achieve more talking over phone and meeting local activists and constituents before house resumes than they would in the hothouse with green benches.
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>> >> I am appalled that given extra time to sort stuff out, our parliamentarians immediately
>> decide
>> >> that means they can reinstate their easter holiday.
>>
>> I've long been puzzled by idea that MP's are on holiday when house is not
>> sitting.
Given the way the house has behaved in the last year, I am puzzled by your defence of them. This is not day to day business. Failure to get an agreement by the time the euro elections appear, will incur a bill of hundreds of millions of pounds, and a euro election will further alienate the electorate.
I can assure you a fair proportion of the MPs will be rogering off somewhere.
Last edited by: Zero on Fri 12 Apr 19 at 22:46
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>> I can assure you a fair proportion of the MPs will be rogering off somewhere.
Not so much defending them as questioning whether House being in session makes much difference as to what needs to be done now.
Govt/Opposition talks will presumably continue with pause only from Thursday pm to Tuesday.
That doesn't need Commons to sit; members can either consult amongst themselves or roger off somewhere though with modern tech they can do both at same time.
Would have been different if there was a Withdrawal Agreement Bill to pass but May's incompetence has killed that for now.
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The Evil EU giving orders to British Companies again. Outrageous.
www.bbc.com/news/business-48098100
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That's nothing, I am waiting for my share of £14 billion..... :-D
www.ft.com/content/3ddb9ddc-627e-11e9-b285-3acd5d43599e
We're in the money!
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I say, this "taking back control" is going rather well, isn't it. Farage did promise a new era for UK manufacturing. Seems he's smarter than I thought.
www.bbc.com/news/business-48103070
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>> www.spiked-online.com/2019/03/07/making-lies-sound-truthful-and-murder-respectable/
What utter nonesense. More of the same conspiracy stuff about remainer elites when reality is the real brake on Brexit has been the Hard Brxiteers like Moggy, IDS and that nutter Mark Francois.
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>> real brake on Brexit has been the Hard Brxiteers like Moggy, IDS and that nutter Mark Francois.
Absolutely. If the idiots hadn't been playing political and career games from the start it'd be done by now. All the ridiculous t***ting about, often from the very people and organisations that Roger worships, simply stopped anything happening.
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I love the way an internet magazine financed by a secret cadre of american industrialists is appalled by the outrageous meddling in british politics by foreigners.
Last edited by: Zero on Wed 1 May 19 at 14:03
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Returned back to U.K. today to find a Poll Card for ‘election of members of the European Parliament ‘. I thought we were leaving the EU sometime this year ? Polling date is 23/05.
I’m busy that day. Paddle boarding, kayaking then probably drinking Larios y Schweppes in Spain.
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>> I’m busy that day. Paddle boarding, kayaking then probably drinking Larios y Schweppes in Spain.
Dont come back, Anyone who stoops to drinking nasty gin like that is not welcome here. Gordons is as low as any decent british person should sink.
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I’m obviously no connoisseur of gin, but insist on a decent tonic. And presented with both lime and lemon, although that’s probably an affectation on my part.
In a Mercadona last week on Tenner Iffy a 1L Bottle of Larios was €9.15c. That was the standard price, not an offer. It was a 5 day last minute trip and sad to say we only got through half the bottle as moderation was called for.
Hope you’re ok Zeddo
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>> In a Mercadona last week on Tenner Iffy a 1L Bottle of Larios was €9.15c.
>> That was the standard price, not an offer.
A litre of Gordons in a Supermercado is a very similar price around €10. Do try and maintain some standards dear boy,
>> Hope you’re ok Zeddo
Yes not bad, my planned spanish trip in June has had to be withdrawn as there is still some doubt about the need for chemo, should know today as I have a visit to the oncologist
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>> Yes not bad, my planned spanish trip in June has had to be withdrawn as
>> there is still some doubt about the need for chemo, should know today as I
>> have a visit to the oncologist
Any news, zed old boy?
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>>
>> Any news, zed old boy?
Yes, chemo not required! Will be scanned and blood tested every 6 months for the next two years.
SO only hurdle now is a further surgical review in August where ileostomy reversal will be discussed and planned.
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That's great news. Pleased for you.
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I am quietly please! (understatement alert)
There seems to be a bit of a fairly recent medical backlash/rethink about adjuvant chemo, the feeling is that its offered too readily without evidences to justify its use in type 1 surgical removed cancers, with little regard to the possible long term damage of its use.
I saw the head consultant for the cancer specialty trust, she was particularly up front about the nastiness of chemo and possible damage
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One of the features of the Good Friday agreement is that people born in NI can choose whether they identify as Irish or British. Official line is that Irish citizens can register for settled status as EU residents in UK but Irish citizens born in the North are told they're wholly British and ineligible:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/06/home-office-british-citizenship-northern-ireland--good-friday-agreement
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>> Irish citizens born in the North are told they're wholly British
Well, that's right, isn't it?
If we are citizens of the United Kingdom then we are British - quite frankly whether we like it or not. In addition we are English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish, depending upon which part of the UK we are from. Again whether we like it or not.
I am British/English. Someone else will be British/Welsh, and so on.
Last edited by: Duncan on Mon 6 May 19 at 22:10
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>> If we are citizens of the United Kingdom then we are British - quite frankly
>> whether we like it or not. In addition we are English, Welsh, Scottish or Irish,
>> depending upon which part of the UK we are from. Again whether we like it
>> or not.
I think you know as well as I do that above does not compute for nearly half of those who you would categorise as British/Irish. The GFA recognises that. The Home Office are playing silly bu**ers and with fire in suggesting that people born in NI who regard themselves as Irish are British and that domestic law trumps international treaties.
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Irish rights only work one way,
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>> Irish rights only work one way,
Can you expand?
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I'm sure I heard correctly this morning but it seems NFs new 'party' is actually registered as a Limited company, is that normal or all other parties missing a trick?
Something doesn't smell right.
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>> I'm sure I heard correctly this morning but it seems NFs new 'party' is actually
>> registered as a Limited company, is that normal or all other parties missing a trick?
>>
>> Something doesn't smell right.
Not sure about first proposition but second is undeniable. The Brexit Party is financially opaque and retains, in spite of promises to contrary, directors with 'previous' for racism etc in social media and previous speeches.
It's simply a device to allow Mr Farage to pursue his one man band political career.
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Reading the other day the Brexit party ha raised £2m in small donations and has now more members than the LD. Should the European elections go ahead I wonder how different the results will be from the locals?
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I'm am member of the Labour party, doesn't mean I'll necessarily vote for them. Must review that !
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>> I'm am member of the Labour party, doesn't mean I'll necessarily vote for them. Must
>> review that !
>>
Different circumstances, I think it's safe to say nearly all those donating to the brexit party will vote for them.
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I think you're right. I've just cancelled my membership. I was a member as part of the Union deal that CAB did. I kept the membership whilst working, binned it now. Never appealed to me being a card carrying member of any party - not that dogmatic.
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>> I think you're right. I've just cancelled my membership. I was a member as part
>> of the Union deal that CAB did. I kept the membership whilst working, binned it
>> now.
Which union Rob. I keep thinking of joining Unison but never quite get round to it.
I resigned my Labour membership during the Blair era. Iraq might have been a factor but it was more rightward drift over education, civil liberties and privatising ATC. Mrs B jacked hers in much more recently due to Jezza's utter hopelessness around Brexit.
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It was UNITE. I had to sign up to ensure representation within the Bx. I stayed with them through my last two jobs (just in case).
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Gina Miller of Article 50 challenge fame has set up a website to help people voting tactically make best choices:
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/09/nigel-farage-european-elections-remain-vote-brexit-party-gina-miller
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>> Gina Miller of Article 50 challenge fame has set up a website to help people
>> voting tactically make best choices:
>>
>> www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/09/nigel-farage-european-elections-remain-vote-brexit-party-gina-miller
>>
I had a look at her website, even in their best outcome the predicted results don't seem to change much. Mind you I'm not sure UK MEPs of any flavour will get much done in the time they over there.
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>> I had a look at her website, even in their best outcome the predicted results
>> don't seem to change much. Mind you I'm not sure UK MEPs of any flavour
>> will get much done in the time they over there.
Right now it seems to be based on polling data form last month. Narrative suggests research and algorithms are still work in progress with users invited to register. Looks as though they will e-mail updates to recommendations as things move in run up to polling day.
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> Right now it seems to be based on polling data form last month. Narrative suggests
>> research and algorithms are still work in progress with users invited to register. Looks as
>> though they will e-mail updates to recommendations as things move in run up to polling
>> day.
>>
I can't see the polling changing that much in the next couple of weeks.
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Anyone else see the documentary on BBC 4 following Guy Verhofstadt's European Parliament team and their participation in Brexit negotiations?
www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0004vyd/storyville-brexit-behind-closed-doors-part-1
Well worth a look. Roger would love it......
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The two programmes didn't give much confidence in the Eurocrats, foul-mouthed and, in Verhofstadt's case, oafish. The only one shown with gravitas and dignity was Barnier.
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A Goldman Sachs article headlined UK economy haemorrhaging £600m a week due to Brexit since the referendum.
www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0401/1039984-goldman-study-on-brexit/?fbclid=IwAR0XRn__Zn3R34-59016l6E-deC8B3WMOQSWJqs-rs1Au3UbfNqw2Yiho98
Seems a lot to me but quite feasible.
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>> A Goldman Sachs article headlined UK economy haemorrhaging £600m a week due to Brexit since
>> the referendum.
>>
>> www.rte.ie/news/business/2019/0401/1039984-goldman-study-on-brexit/?fbclid=IwAR0XRn__Zn3R34-59016l6E-deC8B3WMOQSWJqs-rs1Au3UbfNqw2Yiho98
>>
>> Seems a lot to me but quite feasible.
Dont worry, the brexiteers will point to the sudden upwards growth in the UK economy
Oh, thats right it was panic stockpiling, there is only one way to rebound from there, and it aint up.
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>> Oh, thats right it was panic stockpiling, there is only one way to rebound from
>> there, and it aint up.
Absolutely. My employer alone has a warehouse with over £1m worth of spare parts and kit that we bought in the run up to the original leave date in case we weren't able to fulfil orders or maintenance contracts. Even if everything else remains equal, we won't need to order anything for months now. So, while that £1m represented a nice flurry of activity in the last quarter, it is an anomaly, and entirely artificial. Once you factor in the lost business as a result of the Brexit uncertainty (companies I talk to on a daily basis are deferring, or outright parking investment decisions all over the place) the net impact will be negative. The eventual outcome/deal will simply determine how negative.
Last edited by: DP on Tue 14 May 19 at 11:27
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How much stock would you normally have?
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>> A Goldman Sachs article headlined UK economy haemorrhaging £600m a week due to Brexit since
>> the referendum.
I read a confidential report about a month ago as part of something else I was looking at which had the figure 20% higher than that.
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We get a 'Brextension' to October and a statement of the bloomin obvious from Donald Tusk not to waste this time.
And what do the governing party do next?
Put everything on ice while they spend the summer having a leadership election.
If this was the plot line for a political drama it'd be written off as totally implausible.
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Well she can't seem to get a deal through, perhaps someone else should have a go.
You think she should stay on?
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Rather her than some of the others who might be interested. Especially Boris.
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 19 May 19 at 14:05
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From the NY Times re Brexit:
"You can't fix stupid"
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....originally said by Ron White I think, but not about BREXIT!! Parts of his stand-up routine revolved around that phrase.
Last edited by: smokie on Sun 19 May 19 at 17:52
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>>You can't fix stupid...
I think FUBAR is more appropriate.
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>> Well she can't seem to get a deal through, perhaps someone else should have a
>> go.
>>
>> You think she should stay on?
I don't approve of her though at time of last leadership election I thought she was a safer pair of hands than other candidates and was streets ahead of Leadsom. It's just difficult to see how a new leader would change the game and thus the parliamentary arithmetic.
Even Boris can't change the numbers. Some Tories will resign the Whip if he's elected (though I don't think he could come in top 2 in MP's ballot and progress to Members who love him) but they'd likely remain in same place on WA or, I'm thinking folks like Nicky Morgan, move from tactical acceptance to rejection.
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Scunthorpe voted 66-33 in favour of Brexit.
Bwahahaha.
Of course it's the remoaners fault British Steel is in the shiznit.
Last edited by: Lygonos on Tue 21 May 19 at 11:30
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>> Scunthorpe voted 66-33 in favour of Brexit.
>>
>> Bwahahaha.
>>
>> Of course it's the remoaners fault British Steel is in the shiznit.
I see the British Steel issue is being ignored by the far right pro brexit press.
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I don't approve of her though at time of last leadership election I thought she
>> was a safer pair of hands than other candidates and was streets ahead of Leadsom.
>> It's just difficult to see how a new leader would change the game and thus
>> the parliamentary arithmetic.
Possibly so. But politics can be quite often be about personalities and a different face and attitude/approach may well bring a different result. I get that it is 'wasting time ' but the current approach is going nowhere.
>> Even Boris can't change the numbers. Some Tories will resign the Whip if he's elected
>> (though I don't think he could come in top 2 in MP's ballot and progress
>> to Members who love him) but they'd likely remain in same place on WA or,
>> I'm thinking folks like Nicky Morgan, move from tactical acceptance to rejection.
I see there's a couple of new 'groups' in the Con party, I wonder if there will be some sort of formal split in the party coming, especially if they take a hammering at the euro elections.
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twitter.com/nigel_farage/status/716182984899035136
Why people still listen to this person is beyond me.
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The character traits, understanding and abilities that would stop someone listening to Farage, would stop someone voting Brexit.
Let's face it, if you are intelligent, experienced, knowledgable and sentient, then you're hardly likley to believe anything he says.
He wants to appeal to people who voted Brexit, he needs an audience which is gullible, shallow, and lacking in intelligence. he relies on the overlap.
Rather more worrying is that so many people are still listening to May, Rees-Mogg and Boris.
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>> The character traits, understanding and abilities that would stop someone listening to Farage, would stop
>> someone voting Brexit.
>>
>> Let's face it, if you are intelligent, experienced, knowledgable and sentient, then you're hardly likley
>> to believe anything he says.
He's a one man band. If he walked under a bus tomorrow the Brexit party would be dead in the water, just like UKIP.
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>>UKIP
Had a number of people waving banners on a bridge over the M25 near Dartford today.
b***** reckless. The number of vehicles that were braking to read the signs could have caused an accident.
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Stealers Wheel had it about right....
www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48374841
Last edited by: No FM2R on Thu 23 May 19 at 13:40
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Brexit Discussion - Volume 78 - Fullchat
