Non-motoring > Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. Tax / Insurance / Warranties
Thread Author: No FM2R Replies: 22
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 09:45 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - No FM2R

Somebody is taking the mick.

Private Hire drivers having to pay the congestion charge may or may not be the right thing to do, but trying to stop it on the basis that most are Asian and therefore it is discriminatory is outrageous.

It's this sort of nonsense which creates so much resentment.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-47360402
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 10:13 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - smokie
A news story about Comic Relief and David Lammy yesterday unexpectedly didn't get a mention here, but this is an opportunity as it could be construed as similar thinking.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47400300

I feel there is something in what he says, but how he says it is crass in extremis, and if Twitter is to be believed a lot of people are backing off from supporting Comic Relief.
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 10:25 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - Bromptonaut
>> It's this sort of nonsense which creates so much resentment.

I don't think it's nonsense and if it creates resentment then that's part of the case for what was once called 'Public Legal Education'.

We so far only know what's been reported but it's a high profile case and I'd expect judgement to be published by the court so we can see FULL facts and not just those that appeal to journalists.

I suspect that what's claimed is indirect discrimination. If some act or omission disproportionately affects a cohort of people who mainly have a protected characteristic then it can be held to be indirectly discriminatory. Same principle might apply to say a Social Security provision that mainly affects single parents as that group is overwhelmingly female - ISTR there's been such a finding in relation to the benefit cap.

I'm sure if you Google indirect discrimination you'll find plenty more examples.
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 11:02 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - Bromptonaut
Guardian report specifically mentions indirect discrimination. Also makes clear that case has not yet been formally started - they've sent Mayor a 'letter before action' giving him until next week to respond.

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/01/minicab-drivers-claim-discrimination-over-new-london-ultra-low-emission-zone-charge-black-cabs-exemption
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 10:26 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - Manatee
I can see why they don't like it - the black cabs don't pay, and the charge is actually a change to current practice - what is the logic of charging private hire cars and not hackneys?

Having decided to fight it, the indirect discrimination claim is a bit of legal technique. I remember when we got into bother over sex discrimination with credit scorecards that scored part-time work lower than full time, because part-time workers are predominantly women - I think that was in the 1980s.
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 11:07 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - No FM2R
Oh I can quite see why they don't like it, and it might even be wrong. But taking the discrimination route ir ridiculous nonsense
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 12:05 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - Zero
The problem is simple, with a simple resolution.

Its about air quality and congestion right?

Black cabs are just as bad, if not worse than your average uber Prius.

Its needs to be ALL taxis

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New Fri 1 Mar 19 11:21 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - sooty123
Seems like a load of nonsense, how can you act against minicabs in any way if you can be accused indirect discrimination ?
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 12:05 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - No FM2R
Exactly. Private Hire permits, vehicle requirements etc etc.
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 12:33 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - sooty123
>> Exactly. Private Hire permits, vehicle requirements etc etc.

The list could will be near endless.
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 12:05 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - Bromptonaut
>> Seems like a load of nonsense, how can you act against minicabs in any way
>> if you can be accused indirect discrimination ?

Those claiming indirect discrimination will need to prove it. The basic concept is pretty well known to anyone who's attended inclusivity training at work but whether it will fly here or not is ultimately for the judges to decide. It's certainly arguable and the c will want to here submissions in detail I can't see it it getting blown out of water at permission stage.

My guess is it'll go to the Supreme Court.

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New Fri 1 Mar 19 12:40 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - sooty123
The basic concept is pretty well
>> known to anyone who's attended inclusivity training at work

Nope despite doing that sort of training I can't say I've heard of it.

My guess is it'll go to the Supreme Court.
>>
>>

probably so...
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 15:45 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - Bromptonaut
>> Nope despite doing that sort of training I can't say I've heard of it.

I'm genuinely surprised that anyone can deliver equality etc training without covering indirect discrimination. Obviously, given my current occupation, it's something I'm trained to watch for but it was a full module in Civil Service training too. It's a pretty significant 'bear trap' because it's largely about unintended/unforeseen consequences so things like part time/flexible working (mostly gender but possibly race/religion) or dress codes (race and gender) can be indirectly discriminatory.

Must be 20+ years since union used it to oppose a prescriptive dress code that was tailored suits/ties for men but 'anything smart' for women.
Last edited by: Bromptonaut on Fri 1 Mar 19 at 15:48
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 17:07 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - sooty123
> I'm genuinely surprised that anyone can deliver equality etc training without covering indirect discrimination.

Unless it has another name, I've not come across it.

It's a pretty significant 'bear trap' because it's
>> largely about unintended/unforeseen consequences so things like part time/flexible working (mostly gender but possibly race/religion)
>> or dress codes (race and gender) can be indirectly discriminatory.
>>
>> Must be 20+ years since union used it to oppose a prescriptive dress code that
>> was tailored suits/ties for men but 'anything smart' for women.

You'll have to give me a clue on those examples.
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 17:27 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - No FM2R
I am aware of indirect discrimination and am very rarely a supporter of it being sniffed out.

It is fair to say that something such as applying the congestion charge to Private Hire may well impact a certain race more than others, but that falls under the SFW banner for me. Unless there is something about the nature of that job which forces that race to take it (comparable to women and part-time jobs mentioned above) then where is the issue?

Does that mean that any job which involves one race more than another will in future be exempt form taxation?

The job is not compulsory, it applies to *everybody* who drives a private hire vehicle. There should be no issue.
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 17:28 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - No FM2R
p.s. as for it applying to all such vehicles including black cabs, I think that's fine. Assuming that all the other black cab rules and regulations apply to private hire in future also.
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 21:46 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - Bromptonaut
>> I am aware of indirect discrimination and am very rarely a supporter of it being
>> sniffed out.

While I take your SFW point could same be said of employees of Muslim or Jewish faith who are affected by rigid rules around breaks/finish time on Fridays?

Thirty plus years ago I worked in a place where staff notionally on flexi-time were required to be present outside core time to deal with post. This included an afternoon session for second delivery which on Fridays potentially conflicted with Friday prayers for Muslims. It wouldn't have been impossible to ensure Mr Sheikh and his co-religionists were not rostered on a Friday but that was a concession too far for some colleagues.

OTOH Jewish colleagues, who tended to be better represented at senior grades, got a dispensation to leave before end of core time at 4pm in winter so has to be home before sunset.
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New Sat 2 Mar 19 00:58 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - zippy
Knocking off time for religious reasons.

I have a few clients that observe certain faiths and clearly don't book appointments that coincide with Fridays or religious festivals and they run their businesses to suit themselves which is good.

It tends to be the Civil Service and similar organisations that bend over for these requirements. From my experience you don't see people clocking off early for prayers or to get home early in smaller businesses.

Also, didn't Christians try to claim rights re working Sundays in shops but didn't get very far?
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New Sun 3 Mar 19 10:04 
 Private Hire and the Congestion Charge. - Bromptonaut
>> Also, didn't Christians try to claim rights re working Sundays in shops but didn't get
>> very far?

People in retail and betting have some legal protections:

www.gov.uk/sunday-working

I think it's fair to say those protections don't work as intended. Lot of retail working is zero hours and workers who decline to work on Sundays will simply find they get fewer and fewer shifts offered.

Probably better in big store groups where there's a union presence but union membership is a bit of a minority pursuit. In exploring background where clients seek advice on employment issues 'are you a union member' is a mandatory question. Most common answer by far is No but sometimes I have to explain what a union is......
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 15:37 
 Sort of Related News - Bromptonaut
Meanwhile in another case the High Court has declared the law requiring landlords to check prospective tenants' immigration status as incompatible with Article 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) in conjunction with Article 8 ECHR.

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2019/452.html

This doesn't strike down the law but it puts the government under significant pressure to change it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_incompatibility

Another one headed for the Supreme Court.
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New Fri 1 Mar 19 18:21 
 Sort of Related News - zippy
Indirect discrimination at work...

We had a case. We lend money to businesses. Most of the businesses are Ltd companies or PLCs so it is very difficult to be accidently discriminative, but a few are partnerships / sole traders.

One partnership sued because we quoted a product that had an interest element which their religion banned them from paying. We didn't ask their religion because that would not be allowed (we need to be psychic).

We had to design a package based on "profits" for them which takes loads of extra work for very little advantage and have to make sure the "profits" are in line with the total fees we make to other customers.
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New Thu 7 Mar 19 19:44 
 Sort of Related News - Fullchat
But why is it that Private Hire has become an occupation which is well subscribed by the Asian community ??
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New Thu 7 Mar 19 20:05 
 Sort of Related News - Zero
>> But why is it that Private Hire has become an occupation which is well subscribed
>> by the Asian community ??

probably because they were prepared to put in the hours, and take drunks who vomit in the back of the cab* It would help tho if the terms of the private hire license insisted on a standard of english that is comprehend-able.


*and in london, being prepared to go south of the river, and being available when its raining, and on Saturday.
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