I have a 30m2 roof but its good for 3 or 4 kw of panels.
Living in the South East.
I also have a small windfall that I got as a total surprise for Xmas that would pay for the installation (£4k so a fair chunk of the installation anyway).
So do I invest in the panels and a battery if it extends to that or buy shares in an power generating company?
The money isn't needed for anything else and holidays, cars etc. have all been sorted at the mo.
Any advice re solar panels would also be happily received.
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If my premium bonds continue returning at their current (pun-geddit?) rate I'll be getting 1.2% return on my investment.
I looked into solar panels many years ago and again when the feed-in tariff was reduced resulting in a dramatic reduction in the cost. I decided it wasn't worth the risk due to the replacement cost of the inverters, which seemed to have an expected life (MTBF) of around ten years.
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I'm just entering my 8th year with the 14 panels, and this is the year in which my stake money (£10.5k) will be recouped.
I have had two inverters go, but both replaced under the 5 year warranty. The prices of them are considerably lower than when I first got the system. I think some now have longer warranties, and I also think they are a bit more reliable - but I'd have done it differently if I knew then what I know now (specifically the loft isn't the ideal place for the inverter).
So I will have a bit over 16 years of guaranteed income, adjusted by inflation. I am currently getting about £1500 a year. May not be the best ROI but I'm happy.
The FIT payments are now much much lower but then again so is the cost of installation and hardware. Batteries are still not economically viable for small installations, so I just have to accept that for about 4 months I barely generate anything.
There are other methods of soaking up any "excess" production, the most common being a few hundred quids worth of hardware to heat a hot water tank on the better days. The contraptions work out what you are using v. what you are generating and take the excess off rather than letting it go into the grid. I suppose if they eventually get smart meters which can properly measure outflow they may change the way the export tariff is calculated - currently it is deemed as 50% of your total generation.
I think one of the main things with panels is it made me think more about how I use electricity, and how much can be saved just by a little thought. Simple things like only boiling as much water as you need for your cuppa, and not leaving lights on all over the place, especially non-LEDs (- one of my first jobs once I started looking at it was swapping the halogen downlghters for LEDs which can save a small fortune, even when the bulbs were much more expensive than they are today).
When the panels are generating a fair bit it is also good for me to stagger use of appliances like the washing machines and dishwasher as using both at the same time would cause import which can often be managed solely by my generation on a nice day. Also I charge the car on it when I can.
Bottom line for me is that panels work on all fronts - lowering my electricity bills, a secure income for a limited time, and also assisting my green credentials.
If you want to calculate how much you might generate this site is supposedly very accurate photovoltaic-software.com/pv-softwares-calculators/online-free-photovoltaic-software/pvgis but don't ask me how to driver it as I have no idea!
The is a solar power forum which sometimes gets very technical but it#s also a great place to learn a bit (www.navitron.org.uk/forum/index.php/board,7.0.html ) - it's part of a larger set of forums about sustainable energy.
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 4 Jan 19 at 00:50
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I should add that, having just looked at the documentation the installers provided, the revenue to date is short of what they predicted when I bought the system, by about 1 year, despite my generation being about 6% higher overall. Their variable assumptions in the spreadsheet were all set to "favourable" values.
Not bothered by that though.
Also one of my inverter outages covered the latter half of the summer and early autumn as the manufacturer had sold the warranty business to another company (in Holland) and it took almost there months to get the thing replaced. They did make a goodwill payment but that's not reflected in my income.
Last edited by: smokie on Fri 4 Jan 19 at 01:17
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Do solar panels affect the value of one’s property? I can only think of one close neighbour who has them fitted, and when I walk the mile into town don’t see any others panels at all.
But it is the Y Dales and sun is in short supply compared to other regions
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My neighbour has solar panels, front and back of their pitched roof.
It is only within the last couple of weeks that they thought about getting wire mesh put round the panels to prevent the birds nesting in the gaps (presumably) between panels and tiles.
Pity they didn' think of this about three years ago when the blighters started their nesting !
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>> Do solar panels affect the value of one’s property?
Depends. If they are leased it will knock the value, and make it harder to sell. If they are owned it can make it harder to sell, (but probably wont affect the value). One thing is sure, it wont make the house more valuable, easier to sell, nor would you ever recoup the cost if you installed it and sold the property.
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Quick question thats just hit me, do you have to clean the panels? If you do, who does that and how much does it cost?
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I understand some enthusiasts clean their panels. Some of the more modern window cleaners would do them but as I've not had it done I have no idea of the cost. I'd guess maybe comparable to what it costs to do a conservatory.
They would get a layer of pollen etc in the summer but seems that the odd bit of rain keeps them clean. Some people are nearer to trees which probably cause more bird muck and other dirt but the usefulness of panels which are close enough for that would probably mean they have shading problems too.
Mine don't appear to be dirty, and as far as I can tell the generation hasn't dropped off.
My next door neighbour also has them and is talking about getting up to clean them, and offered to do mine. Given the above, I told him I'd leave well alone, as you may dislodge a dodgy joint or something,
Regarding impact on house selling - if I were looking at a house with a 15+ year guaranteed revenue stream of upwards of £20k I'd expect to pay a bit more for it. If I were moving, panels wouldn't be essential on a new house but it would be an additional bonus point for me. I know not everyone feels the same.
I've no idea why birds don't nest under mine. Maybe too urban? Not really a problem I've seen much about.
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A lot of potential buyers would see solar panels in much the same way as they would see stone cladding, satellite dishes, hot tubs, and plastic conservatories and look elsewhere I’m afraid.
Personally I think they look pretty horrible.
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I don't see them as *that* ugly but then I don't spend much time looking at them. That's for others :-)
Of course it depends on the general environment. On an estate like the one I live on, they really aren't the worst thing around. That's reserved for caravans and vans parked on drives, cars parked on pavements, wheely bins outside homes, and the general poor state of upkeep of some residents houses (front gardens/paintwork etc). Oh, and the amount of building work going on to extend houses, with scaffolding and vans all over the place, and the attendant mess.
None of those are huge problem round here but they strike me as far worse than a few panels on a roof.
Also there are a growing number of people prepared to compromise to become more "green".
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Father-in-law had them installed (purchased outright) 5 years ago at a cost of about £6,000. He's recouped about £2,000 since. Without last summer, it would have been significantly below that. 15 years to simply recoup the initial investment, less inflation, and assuming no faults, maintenance costs, or significant degradation of output isn't a particularly compelling proposition, in my view.
Re cleaning, he does them himself with a ladder and one of those extendable poles with a brush/squeejee thing on the end.
Last edited by: DP on Fri 4 Jan 19 at 09:32
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I suspect the finance problem is due to the rapidly reduced FIT payments. As I said, I'll have my my capital back in about 8 years, so over the remaining 17 years I should get something over £30k back, tax free, and over and above the initial outlay, which I estimate as nearer 6% pa than 5% (admittedly assuming no costs or degradation).
I guess one could argue that you could vastly improve on that but I'd say there aren't many investments where that is almost cast iron. If so, please let me know where :-)
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>>at a cost of about £6,000.
>> He's recouped about £2,000 since.
>>
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What do you mean by "recouped"?
If you invested £6,000 in premium bonds, you would make about 1.2% pa, and then when you wanted the money back you could sell them and recoup your entire £6,000.
Where is the £2,000 he has recouped? Spent on electricity?
If at the end of the panels' life he decided to repeat the investment for a further period with new panels, where is the necessary £6,000 he would need to buy them?
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Not sure I see your point....
He's spent £6k and got £2k back so far.
Why is it significant where he's spent the £2k?
By the end of the panels' life he would presumably (or at least hopefully!) have recovered at least £6k. But the nature of the "investment" is such that it is unlikely to be repeated, or even repeatable at that time.
Not everyone has to have a business case for everything they do. In this instance, being a bit greener than thou gives some a warm feeling :-) You do have to have early adopters for new technology, and I often seem to be one of them, by choice, and I often pay a price for that.
btw based on my own experience of 2 maximum holdings of premium, bonds, 1.2% hasn't been achieved in any of the 8 or so years. I guess I'm just unlucky. But anyway- you should have said you MIGHT make, not would!!
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>>Where is the £2,000 he has recouped? Spent on electricity?
Exactly the opposite; £2,000 *NOT* spent on electricity whereas without the investment it would have been.
I am not sure if you're being picky about semantics or don't quite get the point.
Additionally I entirely agree with Smokie's point; a business case should not be the only acceptable motivation in your life.
In fact, I have worked very hard for many years to enable my freedom to make decisions which do not rely on a business case.
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"Additionally I entirely agree with Smokie's point; a business case should not be the only acceptable motivation in your life."
For starters, I would never bother going fishing.
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>>
>> I am not sure if you're being picky about semantics or don't quite get the
>> point.
>>
I was asking for clarification of the meaning in this example of the word "recoup".
You appear to have confirmed that there is indeed a pot of £2,000 earned from the panels, which with anticipated further earnings will in due course restore, ie recoup, the original outlay.
Thank you.
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In a word - no, cleaning is not worth it
www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/solar-panel-cleaning
Last edited by: Maisie's Dad on Sat 5 Jan 19 at 23:30
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That's probably true although on a single inverter system one panel with degraded output (through dirt, shade or malfunction) can seriously adversely affect the whole of the panels on that string. More recent panels are often installed with the equivalent of an inverter per panel so a single panel affected by something would not impact the rest.
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>> That's probably true although on a single inverter system one panel with degraded output (through
>> dirt, shade or malfunction) can seriously adversely affect the whole of the panels on that
>> string. More recent panels are often installed with the equivalent of an inverter per panel
>> so a single panel affected by something would not impact the rest.
>>
>>
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Here in WA, the micro inverters you mention are mainly used on systems where one or more panels are shaded at some point during the day. As you say, this minimises the reduction in production.
However, more inverters = more to go wrong, and they increase the capital cost of the system.
The vast majority of systems sold here do not have micro inverters.
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I believe that panels fitted from 2019 will not benefit from the FIT.
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>> I believe that panels fitted from 2019 will not benefit from the FIT.
April according to items in internet. One of the odd bits of legislation that's managed to bypass the Brexit stasis in parliament.
Glad to see back of them to be honest. The money to fund the FIT comes from the energy supply companies who pass it on as a levy on ALL their customers. Doesn't feel right to me that those struggling to pay their bills are being charged money so that people like me with spare cash and a roof I own could get a damn good investment return.
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Fair point, but the intent was to help GB achieve it's green credentials rather than give money to the rich. Unfortunately public spending in this country often does as much to further enrich the already-rich (through shareholding in companies delivering services for instance) as ends up on the front line.
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Solar Panels Worth it or not - bathtub tom
